RJJ, Archie Moore, Ken Norton, Wilfred Benitez, Pernell Whitaker, PBF, Hector Camacho SR., Joe Gans, and Kid Gavilan come to my mind. I'd appreciate anyone else's thoughts. Thank you in advance everyone.
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RJJ, Archie Moore, Ken Norton, Wilfred Benitez, Pernell Whitaker, PBF, Hector Camacho SR., Joe Gans, and Kid Gavilan come to my mind. I'd appreciate anyone else's thoughts. Thank you in advance everyone.
what about whats his face....(I'mdrunk again)
you know prince naseem hamed. he was a funky duck.
Oh and Randell "Tex" Cobb! His defense was to let you punch him in the face untill you either got exhausted or broke your hands.
Damn It nearly always worked! Even Larry Holmes said after the fight "don't punch him in the head! yoou'll just hurt your hands"
Emmanuel Augustas,,is another
What unorthodox about PBF's defense? He uses his shoulder and he rolls with punches... He has the most coventional defense besides Winky's. Same with Archie Moore, Toney, etc. I think Winky in ways has an orthodox defense ,and same with Duran because they come foreward on the defensive which is unique for the large part. RJJ only orthodox defense was putting his back to the ropes, but either than that he didn't really have defense because he was a pure counter puncher.
Gotta say Ali when he rope a doped Foreman, no one had seen that before then so was very unorthodox at the time.
Cant beleive toney hasnt been mentioned....
More so in his younger days...But when he started to resurect his career and especially in the jirov fight he looked beautiful with right hand counters
Quote:
Originally Posted by landmine950
That's Ron jeremy the porn star ;D
Norton had a mad defence with his arms held horizontally almost crab like 8)
I agree with what you say about Duran because his defensive prowess goes unrecognized by many. He was very good with the fast rhythm head movement and slipping. Mike Tyson also. As for the Old Mongoose...the log cabin defense used by Archie Moore is a conventional defense? As for PBF I am referring to the times he fights with hands very low and slips punches with subtle shakes of the head, ala Sweet Pea. Same thing with RJJ. To me ability to avoid punches with hands down low is unorthodox. I wasn't referring to what he does a majority of the time (shoulder rolls). If that were the case I would have mentioned De La Hoya and Holyfield also.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
THe fights I've seen of Archie he looked like James Toney, and would just roll with everything. Anyways Mayweather when he puts his hands down isn't using any fancy head movement he just so fast that he can react to his opponents punches fast enough that he can get out of the way same with RJJ, and Whitaker to a lesser degree, but Whitaker would do some wierd things on defense.
Very true. My favorite sweet pea move was the slip, duck, and spin behind his opponent. Leaving his opponents completely baffled.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
Yeh bro...Quote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
Well in all fairness toney looked like archie...
James is a big fan of that old school style and moulded his defense around classic fighters like moore, Jersey joe and such others... Great to see old school fighters litterally using theyr whole body's to defend themselves from punches...Love it
Good point. Toney is also the only fighter since Ali that I have seen using the Rope-A-Dope tactic with great success.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tito_BHB
i don't consider toney or PBF to have unorthadox defenses
Rope a dope has been on the agenda for years a great exponent of it was Charly Burley. When he didnt want you to hit him, you woudnt with a handfull of rice.
There's a good youtube video on Whitaker's defense. My favorite parts are the DLH clips when Oscar throws his wild flurries to steal rounds where he throws about 8 or 9 punches, lands maybe 1, and then pumps his fist while Lampley creams his pants.
[youtube=425,350]_G5v_PNsl4Q[/youtube]
Great clip. CC when I get 100. You from the tidewater area SweetPea?Quote:
Originally Posted by SweetPea
Really? :-\Quote:
Originally Posted by 'The Boxer'
Well they do..No doubt about it...You need some serious skill to pull of the shoulder roll and counters teqnique....
James becuase it works so well with his punching style..And Floyd because i once saw him do it for at least 30 40 seconds strait under none stop punches..Just roll away from the left capture the right over and over against phillip Ndou..
Very nice...
Seriously one ina million can use this type of defence and be effective at total world class level...
And considering neither fighter has been stopped..But if your not on the money with it your open..
That is really something.
:coolclick: for those Whitaker clips. feel free to post anymore you find.
Toney has a unique defense,its hard to duplicate because of the requirements.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tito_BHB
first. lose a fight and then complain for a rematch
1) come in hugley bloated and overweight.
2) have a lethargic punch output
3) bend WAY over and expose the back of your head to your opponent
4) when he pounds ya in the back of the melon,whine like crazy.
5) after you lose,show no respect & complain about the judging
6) act like you accomplished something because the guys bigger than you,you used to be small and in shape long ago, and even tho' he beat you from piller to post and knocked you down in the second. Since he didn't actually KO your fat ass,you somehow earned a "moral" victory.
Add to this the stubling around the ring all off balance and there you have it!
The JAMES TONEY SHUFFLE!
the move that PBF and toney use aren't unorthodox. alot of fighters use those moves. it's just that there really good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tito_BHB
Landmine this is getting wayyy old now...
This is a serious topic... why do you have to go putting silly comments?
Its a joke..I mean if you had something worth while to say then feel free...But its just rip this fighter rip that fighter..It gets boring...Well...Perhaps..But i wouldnt consider the moves that everyone else tries to make effective as the same things..Its one thing doing it ..a complete other mastering it.. Its certainly not normal and household skills for sure..But i see where you come from.. Its likely that when they learned this stuff it was very distinctly unorthadox..But since so many people have tried to duplicate it ..Its become somewhat norm...Quote:
Originally Posted by 'The Boxer'
Another guy is Prince naseem...Used to lean at such funny angles and come up with very dangerous shots....Unless your something seriously special you dont wana throw uppercuts at such a long range like naz did..lol
One more thing about Whitaker's defense. One stat that always stuck out to me was that Pernell had a 20 fight span in his career where his opponents combined to land only 25% of their punches.
And these 20 fights were during his prime when he was fighting nothing but world champs and #1 contenders, it wasn't early in his career when he was fighting stepping-stone guys. And it's not like he made these guys miss because he focused on nothing but defense, he would make guys miss and throw 70-80 punches of his own each round.
I remember they kept showing the 25% stat during the Tito fight, because by then Whitaker was old, out of shape, and abusing cocaine, and it had stripped him of all his speed and reflexes. Tito landed something like 65% of his punches that night, which is incredible in any fight, but it was even more amazing because Tito did it against a guy who had been unhittable his entire career.
Wondered how long it would take you to flip if i dissed your man!Quote:
Originally Posted by Tito_BHB
LOL
But seriously.. His defensive style is mastery,chin tuck and shoulder roll.
But the side bob doesnt work against taller guys. He wasn't able to adapt to peter's improvements,and did come up too square and did slip due to being off balance and was off balance quite a bit.
I'd really like to see him down at cruiser. He's gain speed, and have enough POP that his counters (that he landed perfectly flush against peter)
would have a much greater effect.
THEN his defensive skills would shine again....IMO
I think in the 60s Boxing had an identity crises caused by the Russians. There teams use to come west and do well, and we tried to copy to an extent their basics, without looking into the rudiments of why they did so well. Being over 24 with 200 fights and not being sure what was being put in them. The techniques lingered we copied ,there basics are still copied today in Amatuer Seminars. All the fighters you mention are old school taught, sometimes new is not better.
Lol Your a big tease ;) !!Quote:
Originally Posted by landmine950
But your right toney would dominate at cruiser but i firmly doubt toney will ever have to make weight again...
It's really a shame too!
He would earn back the respect of so many fans,and secure his legacy and his Hall of FAme spot!
A RJJ rematch? Byrd? lots of possabilities! and a belt at cruiser would be a strong stepping stone . from there it would be.
Go directly to HW belt match,do not pass go, DO collect 10 million dollars!
The cruiserweight division is alot bigger now then it was when he fought jirov too..Quote:
Originally Posted by landmine950
Theres some good fighters made some big names up there..Mormeck, o niel bell, David haye..Enzo mac
Plenty of options and even with him coming off losses they would all be underdogs to a Shapely toney.
He looked better after working with blanks for sure... But im not sure how blanks could possibly help him drop weight and still be strong..
who said Hamed earlier ???
Well there's one fight on youtube where he was defensively great but he isnt really known for defense I dont think :-\
[youtube=425,350]5IVYILZbHRw[/youtube]
[youtube=425,350]ILowbdC-iz0[/youtube]
More to do with reflex but unorthodox and defense it is.
He was hit higher by % than Mayweather who is below 20%, but like I said PBF isn't in the running IMO because he has sound technical defense while Whitaker wins this competition because he is truly unique in his defense. The only thing unique about PBF's defense is how well he can change it up from having his hands up high to using his shoulder to using footwork and reflexes.Quote:
Originally Posted by SweetPea
yEh I mentioned hamed... Alot to do with reflex and somewhat to do with that arrogance that get em off theyr game... He sure is a hell of a bastard... But with skill like that..It could only help him...
Love that vid one of my favourite naz fights in fact..Cc for the vid Pgh.
Peace
Hamed good defensively? I think him fighting top competition proved that wrong... He had good reflexes(not like RJJ or PBF, but good) however he got hit against fighters who wouldn't hit top end defensive fighters.