He could get off 10 punch combinations while still being a defensive wizard and thats impressive
I really dig Whitaker now, especially after seeing this.
[youtube=425,350]4FPiQEgsYSM[/youtube]
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He could get off 10 punch combinations while still being a defensive wizard and thats impressive
I really dig Whitaker now, especially after seeing this.
[youtube=425,350]4FPiQEgsYSM[/youtube]
Whitaker gots mad skillz... skillz wot killz!
Thats what I don't understand about PBF fans how they say "Well, Pernell fought the same way and was always on the defensive end"
Yeah! but Pernell did it in a way that was also offensive he put in work and punished his opponents.... Like Ricardo Lopez I mean we talk about Lopezs skills and technique but have you guys seen how he ends fights with 1 single punch?
Can we stay on the topic of Whitaker please ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMicK
A tremendous fighter. People rave about Floyd's defense...but Pernell's was better imo.
This is why I consider Whitaker the best defensive fighter I've ever seen, and also why I consider Whitaker to a better PFP fighter than Roy Jones was.Quote:
Originally Posted by Majesty
Neither guy ever got hit in his prime, but Jones usually stood at a distance, dove in with a power shot, and then jumped out again.
Whitaker could stand flat footed right in front of his opponent, throw 80 punches a round, and still never get hit. That's the rarest of skills. Of course this was necessary for Pernell, because he didn't have any power, so he had to beat guys by landing lots of punches.
I am a huge Floyd fan and I've regularly referred to him as this decade's version of Whitaker. But you do bring up a very good point regarding their differences. Whitaker didn't change his style much as he moved from 135-140-147. He still stayed right in front of opponents, even though they were bigger and stronger.Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMicK
Mayweather may engage less at 147 than he did at 130, 135, etc. If he does continue to throw one punch and then move back out, that will be a big difference between he and Whitaker.
Whitaker always based everything on the jab his entire career. Floyd has seemed to abandon it in recent fights.
We really won't be able to evaluate Mayweather vs. Whitaker until later in their careers. Everyone always questions the chin and heart of great defensive fighters because in their primes they never get hit. But when they get old, they lose their reflexes and eat punches that never would have landed before.
Jones proved late in his career that his chin was suspect.
Whitaker proved at the end that he had a great chin. He got nailed by power punches for 12 rounds by a prime Trinidad and only went down once on a quick knockdown in Round 2, and I believe he fought the last 6 rounds with a broken jaw.
Mayweather hasn't slowed down yet so we have to wait to see what he proves in this area.
PBF seems to be content, with rolling punches off and not beeing agressive I mean look at the Baldomir fight, look at the Zab fight...... Those are 2 fighters that he should have and could have stopped but he didn't instead he was content with prancing around the ring and wining the fight by Dec.Quote:
Originally Posted by SweetPea
Watch Mayweather at his natural weight classes he did much thesame thing... Mayweather also throws better, more thought out combinations then Whitaker... offensively Mayweather was superior, and his transitions were better because he was faster, and could switch quicker.Quote:
Originally Posted by Majesty
There are a few points I disagree on... Whitaker didn't stand toe to toe with guys like Chavez and Oscar Dela Hoya who had both skilll, and power. Also he wasn't as good of a counter puncher nor was he anywhere near as quick as Mayweahter or RJJ p4p... ALso Roy Jones Jr. had a good chin in his prime, and he did get hit, but Tarver hit him with an amazing punch, and Glen Johnson hit him hard for 9 rounds before he went down. Roy at his prime was taking a clean shot from Hopkins or Toney without any problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by SweetPea
And this is what seperates Mayweather from Whitaker:
[youtube=425,350]3HfWfvuwdDE[/youtube]
Those 5-6 punch combos are brutal and land about as flush as they get on poor arturo's head and body. This is a great clip here, 8-min highlight of mayweather gatti. I know you all have seen it before, but treat it like fine wine or poetry. Savor the crowd gasping in awe and the thud of the punches coming through. This clip never gets old, I've probably seen in a good 20 times myself. It is art.
Whitaker would have done that against anyone Gatti's caliber ::**Quote:
Originally Posted by dasamm
Treat this like fine wine, Whitaker who "cant punch" taking on WBA Lightweight champ Juan Nazario(much more dangerous then Gatti) who won that title by knocking out Edwin Rosario
[youtube=425,350]4D_rDwzl05g[/youtube]
Treat THAT like fine wine
or this fight against the 32 and 0 Poli Diaz
[youtube=425,350]oWmKcNVMi8s[/youtube]
Again, this is what seperates Whitaker from Mayweather ;)
Sweet Pea stood and FOUGHT while blocking and bobbing and weaving...he'd throw good combinations whereas Floyd has recently taken to throwing one or two punches at a time and his combos lack POP.
We'll see Oscar show Floyd what a true fighter fights like and then we can compare it to how Pernell did vs Oscar
Not the same Oscar that Whitaker fought
I've actually meant to watch more of whitaker fights. I have only seen dlh, jcc, and trinidad fights, aside from parts the clips you posted (which I will watch all later when I have the time).
But I've seen a lot of PBF and maintain my stance that mayweather is the better offensive fighter. But I've also admitted that I could very well be wrong...but there's not really a right answer to this I guess.
To be honest I have no taste for wine ;)
All in all Maj, I cc you for reminding me to watch more of Sweet Pea's fights!
For the record I think PBF will dominate oscar. Granted, it won't be the same oscar pernell fought.
also, dlh moved up in weight to fight whitaker and floyd is moving up to fight dlh. That will do something to balance out the age difference that dlh has now. Can really make a convincing argument either way after oscar-floyd.
I like both fighters. But I do consider Mayweather to be the slightly better fighter. The way I rate them is pretty simple. On a scale of 1 to 10. I give Whitaker a 10 for defense. I give Mayweather a 9. For offense I give Whitaker a 5. I give Mayweather an 8. That's 15 points for Pernell. 17 for Floyd. Like I said simple.
some of u guys are dick heads pernell was outstaning thas true but y diss floyd hesis jus as good and deserves more credit than given he has pop has defense and throws smart punches all u guys are comparing pernells carrer to floyds fight with baldi
You're very welcome cc backQuote:
Originally Posted by dasamm
Nice video. Always a pleasure to watch him.
no question about it. i'm the biggest PBF fan on here and i have no problem saying whitiker defense was better.Quote:
Originally Posted by zhubin
I'm not so sure Oscar is worse now... sure he is slower, and all, but he knows how to use both hands now, and IMO thats far more important... also the size is a far greater advantage because at 154 Mayweather will be slower than what he is used to, and thats his bread and butter when push comes to shove.Quote:
Originally Posted by dasamm
One thing that's not getting mentioned here is that Whitaker was unpopular for most of his career. People complained about Whitaker being boring all the time. There were plenty of fights in his prime where he would give his opponent a complete boxing lesson and the crowd would boo the last few rounds because Whitaker wasn't brawling or trying to knock the guy out. He was never a fan favorite.
That's why he had so few fights in Vegas. He had a lot of fights in his hometown of Norfolk because that's the only place where he could fill an arena.
That's why he had to fight McGirt (who's from NY) at Madison Square Garden and had to fight Chavez in Texas in front of 65,000 Chavez fans.
Sweet pea was really terrific fighter just not everyones favorite to watch.
Ipersonally think he cud have held is own with the Durans and Leonards of this world.
wot do you guys think ?
As youve correctly said before, this is becuase Pernell chose to win by way of volume punching, being brave, cobining guts with sublime defence.Quote:
Originally Posted by SweetPea
Which is absolutely great. However. That doesnt lay the blueprint for a succesfull venture up the weight classes.
Even Roberto Durans fights, to some extent will detail that... Point being he adjusted.
You have to agree that in a few of his bigger fights (Chavez,Trinidad & Oscar) Pernell was the one moving away, sometimes even running.Quote:
Originally Posted by SweetPea
Im not saying that was his style but there were times when he just had to. Floyd chooses to.. Possibly for a good reason, as we may find out as Floyd slows down. But the point is, that IMO, Floyd is more effective.
You could count the amount of times Floyd has been hit in his last 3 fights on both hands. (One hand dedictaed to the Juda fight ::**).
And although the fights were either one sided, boring or both they were (minus the fouling) immaculate. Which Floyd reeks of while Pernnel doesn't quite.
Yet what Floyd choses not to do with the jab, he does twice as effectively with the straight right. (N'dou, Castillo II, Gatti, Baldomir).Quote:
Originally Posted by SweetPea
Sweat Pea does look the business though. Just wont have a bad word said about the guy who actually started at a lower weight class. 8)
I think he could of held his own against anyone between 135-147 in history.Quote:
Originally Posted by althetruthhindley
I also think a Prime Pernell would of outboxed a Mayweather.
Dan i think sweat pea was a top fighter to and if he had BIG POWER wud have been even more terrific feel free to mail me guys
Well Pernell did reign as welterweight champ for 4 years, including victories over McGirt (twice), Chavez, and arguably De La Hoya. That's a pretty successful move up in weight. Whitaker also won a belt at 154.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimboogie
You're 100% right about the Chavez fight. Whitaker was constantly on the move for the whole 12 rounds, because that was the best way for him to win.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimboogie
That's not true with the De La Hoya fight so much and definitely not with Trinidad. By the time he fought Trindidad, age and abuse had robbed him of his speed and reflexes. He stood flat footed in front of Tito for 12 rounds and took shots that would've knocked any other man out.
True. But you could say this about almost every fight Whitaker had over a 6 or 7 year span.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimboogie
I'm not sure. Whitaker is considered by many to be a technically perfect fighter. He had plenty of fights where he won all 12 rounds and was never hit with a clean punch all night.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimboogie
Whitaker got hit more in % than Mayweather who has been hit less than any other top 10 p4p level boxer.
I've read that before, but do these stats include Whitaker's last 7 or 8 fights?? Because he was past his prime by that point and therefore got hit a lot more than he did in his prime.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
Mayweather is still in his prime and hasn't lost his speed yet, so comparing Floyd's stats to Pernell's isn't a fair comparison unless you remove all the stats from fights Pernell had past the age of 29 (the age Floyd is now).
Pernell didn't fight the same quality IMO as Mayweather... some good names he has are Roger Mayweather(who was pretty good, but nothing like his nephew... in the ring at least), Vazquez(who did well against Winky, but is slow, and I think Winky had the wrong still for him), McGirt of course was IMO the best he fought, but Mayweather has already foughten very fast and offensively Skilled Zab Judah, Corrales, Chavez, Castillo, Corrales(who is both fast and strong). Also I just watched Baldomir and Mayweather, and Mayweather is not often straight up hitting and running... many times in the fight he comes up to Baldomir and boxes him on the inside or throws combinations against Baldomir where he is hitting Baldomir flush and doesn't get hit once. IMO its impossible to say who's got the better defense especially in terms of skill because Whitaker had a defensive advantage fighting southpaw.
You're joking right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
Whitaker fought Azumah Nelson and Julio Caesar Chavez. Nelson didn't win more than one or two rounds, and Chavez didn't win more than 3 or 4. And those two guys are two of the best fighters of that era. Either of those guys is better than anyone Mayweather has fought. And I'm not one of these people who criticizes Floyd's opponents, because I think he fights the best guys that are out there. But he doesn't have anyone on his resume who resembles Nelson or Chavez.
Then Whitaker fought both De La Hoya and Trinidad, when he was way past his prime and they were at the top of their game.
Whitaker was 32 when he fought Chavez... or maybe I got it wrong if so... Mayweather still fought way more good figheters, and IMO Chavez would have been no problem for him. I think personally Chavez is one of the most overrated fighters ever. Nelson wasn't one of the best of the era... maybe in the weight category, and he won alot more than 2 rounds against Whitaker I had him behind maybe 4-5 rounds by the end. Though Chavez alot of those rounds were close, and like I said before he was overrated... Oscar destroyed him in a fashion a great fighter should never be destroyed, and Chavez was also outboxed by Meldrick Taylor who was quick, but wasn't on the same skill level as Mayweather or Pernell. In terms of skill though not even close in determination but JUdah is far more athletically gifted than anyone Pernell fought, and he is far faster than anyone Pernell fought. I feel that Judah was focused against Mayweather, but that Mayweather defense and commitment conquered a Judah that when he came in focused was a chin short of unstoppable however Mayweather didn't have the power to KO Judah which makes it all the more impressive how he handled him.
Whitaker was 29 when he fought Chavez, the same age Mayweather is now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
Azumah Nelson was elected to the Hall of Fame in the first year that he was eligible. He was also ranked by Ring Magazine as the 65th best fighter of the last 80 years, ahead of such fighters as Thomas Hearns, Ricardo Lopez, Mike Tyson, and Oscar De La Hoya.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
Chavez was 34 and 36 years old the two times he fought Oscar. He was way past his prime.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
I like Judah and no one will argue that he has incredible athleticism. But are you saying that Zab Judah is a better fighter and tougher opponent than Azumah Nelson, Julio Cesar Chavez, Oscar De La Hoya and Felix Trinidad??Quote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
Because that would be nuts.
I hate to say this but Sweet Pea and Floyd are way different as MIke Vick is to Joe Montana... Floyd is way better at transitioning and making his punches count.. Floyd dosent need to flury and an hit glove,,,,he is as accurate as an laser guided missle . he couples tight versatile defense with accuracy which leads to sting offensive iniative and counterpunching opportunities.... I will admit though I thought Pernell was all world and Istill feel the same .... Trinidad spanked that azz, but he did it against a Pernell that is not to far behingd from a current Oscar , minus the Coke ... but the Promotional, managerial and trainer "DRAMA" Dynamic is just as profound as Pernell's coke Habit was..... Floyd will be smaller but will Beat DLH to the punch and win no less than 9rounds and I predict he drops Oscar once as well as Oscar dropping FLoyd.. It will look like Trinidad Vs Whitaker just in reverse fashion... ;)
I misread how old Whitaker was against Chavez my bad, and a guy like Chavez who didn't fight all that many good fighters should have still been able to do better than he did against ODLH that fight. I've seen 2 or 3 of Nelson's fights and I haven't been overly impressed for him being an ATG, and he definitely wasn't as good as Hearns, prime Mike Tyson. As about Judah I think in terms of skill he is better than any of those guys except maybe Nelson in terms of skill... Chavez was come forward guy with limited defense, Oscar Dela Hoya was dependent on his left hand, and wasn't even close to as fast as Judah. Trinidad had always been power... I never felt he could hang with the top guys... ODLH outboxed him, Bernard outboxed, and kicked his ass. Winky did the same as Bernard except he didn't KO Trinidad, but he made him look even more foolish as premier boxer.Quote:
Originally Posted by SweetPea
i think whitaker is an all time great. not only did he win fights he won all the rounds too. also I think his standard of opposition was much better. if you break down his record he fought and defeated the following
roger mayweather, haugen,ramirez (twice imo), nelson, pendleton, nazario, mcgirt twice paez, vasquez, chavez (yes he won that fight).
also when slightly passed his best he pushed de la hoya (having watched that fight i thought whitaker might of nicked it)
way past his best he lasted 12 against trinidad.
mayweather although impressive cant compare to whitaker in terms of class of opposition.
I'm talking pre-Dela Hoya, and like I said Trinidad has been proven a inferior fighter when fighter a great boxer.
You're right, Trinidad did have problems with slick boxers. But the two guys he lost to are Bernard Hopkins and Winky Wright. Hopkins in one of the greatest middleweights of all-time and Wright is one of the toughest fighters of the last decade. It's hardly a shame to lose to those guys.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
Trinidad is still an all-time great, and better than anyone Mayweather has fought. Trinidad in his prime would kick Zab Judah's ass.
if floyd retired today, pernell would be far and away the greater fighter....
hopefully, mayweather doesnt retire. i see him taking a year off and coming back to fight another mega fight. maybe wright at a catch weight, or paul williams (he will be a top contender at whatever weight hes at then) mosely (after he whoops collazo and probably cotto) or even hatton.
he gets a few names like that under his belt and remains dominant and undefeated, he could then retire as one of the greatest of all time
but i think that his brittle hands will ultimately be his downfall :-\
Oh! shitsky!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
You gotta be kdding.....
Whitaker didn't fight the same quality of opposition as PBF has fought.... Ah!!! no NOW I've read it all...
Whos the last P4P fighter PBF faced?
Whitaker fought whom ever they put in front of him....