Valuev's record BETTER? than Marciano's??

Could it be? ...Naw....ridiculous......or is it??

It's very hard to compare records of old time boxers to modern boxers
Things are very different today.
Old time fighters fought as a job. Except for a select few, Low pay per fight.
This meant that for a guy to be a professional he had to fight lots!
every month to put food on the table. On the average about
2- 3 times as much as a modern fighters.
Most guys had regular day jobs and fought on the side. Few professional trainers, no TV revenue etc.

Can any meaningful numbers crunching be done to create some kind of statistical comparison?

Part of the problem is that some of their opponents records are not available. Marciano's due to age and Valuev's due to the collapse and disorganisation in Russion sports at the start of his career.
Also.
The first fights in a fighters career are most often against easy fighters so that the fighter can develop skill and build confidence and as such are not a genuine "test" of his ability and really add nothing to his record as far as legitimacy goes.

Marciano has a couple and Valuev about 5 opponents who's records are unknown and appear as 0-0-0

Let's look at each fighters last say..25 fights..a time when they should be well into decent "real" fights

Marciano's last 25 opponents had a combined record of

1164 Wins 332 Losses 68 Draws

That gives a Win/fight ratio of 74.42%


Valuev's last 25 opponents have a combined record of

539 Wins 103 Losses and 19 Draws

For a Win/Fight ratio of 81.54%


Also as for which of the 2 groups would be/have been harder to beat and maintain a undefeated record against?

Marciano's last 25 guys had 332 losses or an average of 13.28 per fighter

Valuev's have 103 losses or an average of only 4.12 losses per fighter


For their last 10 fights?

Marciano 114 Losses 11.4 per fighter
Valuev 26 Losses 2.6 per fighter

Conclusion? The guys that Marciano built his record on DID WORSE
against the fighters of his day, than Valuev's opponents have done against modern day fighters

IE Valuev has fought a better caliber of fighers

81.5% win ratio vs 74.4% win ratio


Thoughts??
Please,...Do try and post intelligent and logical arguments and comments, not broad sweeping statements like "all fighters today suck" or other such nonsense


P.S. just for fun..
Here's a pic of Valuev vs John Ruiz who is 6'2 1/2" and weighs 240
Marciano was 5'10" and 190 and as you can see had thick legs.

Never ever compare them.....especially since Valuev hasn't fought any top teir heavyweights....EVER



Rocky fought EVERYONE in his era...he ducked no one


Valuev ducks EVERYONE

some one is really starting to sound obsess over the big guy.

I was getting bored so I started a post.
I have noticed how Google images used to have 2 pages of images under Valuev,then 4 then 10 now like 25.
Public intrest is spreading

I would like comments on the statistical analysis.....oh..oh..
Lyle gets a chubby whenever he reads that word,,It has the word anal in it

Win percentage does not mean anything. Rocky fought top tier contenders. Granted it wasn't the strongest bunch but they were the top dog's nonetheless.

Just stop.

Valuev record ain't even as good as Brian Nielsen, who also got to 49-0 before getting knocked out.

[quote=landmine950 ]
I was getting bored so I started a post.
I have noticed how Google images used to have 2 pages of images under Valuev
then 4 then 10 now like 25[quote] I bet your the only one

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by landmine950

I was getting bored so I started a post.
I have noticed how Google images used to have 2 pages of images under Valuev,then 4 then 10 now like 25.
Public intrest is spreading

I would like comments on the statistical analysis.....oh..oh..
Lyle gets a chubby whenever he reads that word,,It has the word anal in it

---

Have you anything to say about the fact that Valuev has fought 23 fighters with only 10 total fights?

and the fact that only 36 of the 46 guys he fought have winning records???

and the fact that 6 of the 46 guys he fought had never won a fight????





..........yeah he's a great one that big unfrozen caveman

If you list the guys that Valuev has fought.
And then the other top guys who have also fought them,
In other words they were good enough to be considered legitimate competition for other guys to build records on.
You'll end up with a list of EVERY name fighter out there.
These guys were good enough for other fighters to build records on.
But when Valuev fights them those victories become meaningless?
Explain that to me If its more than just Hater's logic!

Here's a list and who they fought

McCline Brock,Byrd,Briggs,Grant & Wlad Klitschko
Barrett Rahman,Guinn,Mesi & Wlad Klitschko
Beck Austin,Barrett
Ruiz Chagaev,Toney,Golota,Evander...everyone
Donald Austin,Evander & Vitali Klitschko
Ettienne Brock,Tyson,Botha
Levin Williams,Austin
Nobles Seldon,Fields
Vidoz Virchis
Bango Povetkin
Dominguez Moli (fought Wlad)
Ryan Briggs & Vitali Klitschko
Tisdale Clay Bey,Moorer,Guinn & Saunders (remember him?)
Mirovic Sinan Samil Sam,Okhello,Skelton,williams,Meehan


Thats the last 14! Argue those names away! I see the Klitschkos also seems to have fought quite a few of them,both "duckers" too I guess..



Hey Kids! get used to the MARCIANO comparisons..
a couple more wins and it's all everyone will be talking about!

valuevs good but not great, maybe he can be great if he knocks out the klitchko brothers and if lewis comes back and valuevs knocks him out too...

too bad though the heavyweight division don't have much great fighters, so its a slim chance valuev reaches greatness due to lack of great oppenents.

if he gets to 50-0...without fighting either of the klichko brothers, then its a bigger let down.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BoxingGod

valuevs good but not great, maybe he can be great if he knocks out the klitchko brothers and if lewis comes back and valuevs knocks him out too...

too bad though the heavyweight division don't have much great fighters, so its a slim chance valuev reaches greatness due to lack of great oppenents.

if he gets to 50-0...without fighting either of the klichko brothers, then its a bigger let down.

---

not bad when your even speaking about the ape.....he should be fighting gorilas in the jungle...he aint even good AT ALL

How about fighting one of the Klitschkos for the 49-0?
Big hype, Big interest and a no lose for boxing either way.
Maybe get one of the other titles before and Klitschko does the same to make a 4 belt unification belt as well!!!
I wouldn't care who wins! It would be sweeeettt!!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by landmine950

Could it be? ...Naw....ridiculous......or is it??

It's very hard to compare records of old time boxers to modern boxers
Things are very different today.
Old time fighters fought as a job. Except for a select few, Low pay per fight.
This meant that for a guy to be a professional he had to fight lots!
every month to put food on the table. On the average about
2- 3 times as much as a modern fighters.
Most guys had regular day jobs and fought on the side. Few professional trainers, no TV revenue etc.

Can any meaningful numbers crunching be done to create some kind of statistical comparison?

Part of the problem is that some of their opponents records are not available. Marciano's due to age and Valuev's due to the collapse and disorganisation in Russion sports at the start of his career.
Also.
The first fights in a fighters career are most often against easy fighters so that the fighter can develop skill and build confidence and as such are not a genuine "test" of his ability and really add nothing to his record as far as legitimacy goes.

Marciano has a couple and Valuev about 5 opponents who's records are unknown and appear as 0-0-0

Let's look at each fighters last say..25 fights..a time when they should be well into decent "real" fights

Marciano's last 25 opponents had a combined record of

1164 Wins 332 Losses 68 Draws

That gives a Win/fight ratio of 74.42%


Valuev's last 25 opponents have a combined record of

539 Wins 103 Losses and 19 Draws

For a Win/Fight ratio of 81.54%


Also as for which of the 2 groups would be/have been harder to beat and maintain a undefeated record against?

Marciano's last 25 guys had 332 losses or an average of 13.28 per fighter

Valuev's have 103 losses or an average of only 4.12 losses per fighter


For their last 10 fights?

Marciano 114 Losses 11.4 per fighter
Valuev 26 Losses 2.6 per fighter

Conclusion? The guys that Marciano built his record on DID WORSE
against the fighters of his day, than Valuev's opponents have done against modern day fighters

IE Valuev has fought a better caliber of fighers

81.5% win ratio vs 74.4% win ratio


Thoughts??
Please,...Do try and post intelligent and logical arguments and comments, not broad sweeping statements like "all fighters today suck" or other such nonsense


P.S. just for fun..
Here's a pic of Valuev vs John Ruiz who is 6'2 1/2" and weighs 240
Marciano was 5'10" and 190 and as you can see had thick legs.

---

:coolclick: For the statistical analysis, which is interesting in and of itself. However, these stats are a bit deceptive. Almost all of Valuev's fights have taken place overseas in Germany and Russia. Many of the fighters on his resume are suspect just because they fought in protected environments and have been shielded from proper high-tier competition.
That being said, Marciano fought and beat American fighters with much more ring experience. Even in light of their losses, Valuev's career has been mainly bolstered by fighting relatively inexperienced Euro-Bums. The fact of the matter is that he hasn't impressed thusfar and making a comparison between him and Marciano is a bit of a stretch to say the least. Statistical analysis doesn't always show the entire story.

I agree with the stats part..I do it cuz I find it interesting.

Of course the guy will have had most of his fights in his home country.
And at first he wouldn't be out looking for world beaters, and germany is a hot spot for boxing in Europe as well.
BUT the guy has been around, thats one of the things i kinda liked about him.
Not as bad as like the Argentinian guys at 30-0 who only fought Argentinians in Argentina

Take a look!
Russia 16
germany 14
Australia 4
USA 3
japan 2
england 2
Czech republic 2
Ukraine 1
Korea 1
Switzerland 1
Belarus 1


As for the bums? what about the last 14 guys I listed? All bums?
if they are then thats what EVERYONE in the div is fighting!

Boxing is not about numbers.

Personally, I think the salient point is Marciano was UNDISPUTED world champ and Valuev just holds an alphabet title. Would we be talking about him at all if he was just a top ten contender with one undisputed champ ruling the division?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by landmine950

I agree with the stats part..I do it cuz I find it interesting.

Of course the guy will have had most of his fights in his home country.
And at first he wouldn't be out looking for world beaters, and germany is a hot spot for boxing in Europe as well.
BUT the guy has been around, thats one of the things i kinda liked about him.
Not as bad as like the Argentinian guys at 30-0 who only fought Argentinians in Argentina

Take a look!
Russia 16
germany 14
Australia 4
USA 3
japan 2
england 2
Czech republic 2
Ukraine 1
Korea 1
Switzerland 1
Belarus 1


As for the bums? what about the last 14 guys I listed? All bums?
if they are then thats what EVERYONE in the div is fighting!

---

I find the stat analysis interesting to, albeit a bit misleading. No, I certainly can't say that his last 14 opponents were bums, but they certainly weren't world-beaters by any stretch of the imagination. To be honest, his toughest challenges to date have been against John Ruiz and McCline. My comment about the Euro system was only trying to indicate that until of late, most HW champs were using America as their adopted homeland...many of the greats were native born. But I'm sure that there is a Euro-Slugger that will come into the spotlight soon. Boxing has become much more of a global sport over the past years.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by landmine950

I was getting bored so I started a post.
I have noticed how Google images used to have 2 pages of images under Valuev,then 4 then 10 now like 25.
Public intrest is spreading

I would like comments on the statistical analysis.....oh..oh..
Lyle gets a chubby whenever he reads that word,,It has the word anal in it

---

you failed to notice that Marciano's opponents also won TWICE as many fights as Valuev's.......some of those losses might be contributed to taking fights way to early...back then they fought with more frequency than we do now.....and what exactly was their record before they fought Marciano?? were those records for their entire career or to just before they fought Marciano?

I always thought Rocky Marciano was a bit overrated but even so you still can't compare Valuev's record to his.

Valuev has fought only two fighters with any sort of name recognition in former champ John Ruiz and Jameel McCline.

The facts.

His 'win' over John Ruiz was booed even by the German fans who felt the result was a farce!

His 'win' over Jameel McCline came courtesy of a knee injury to McCline in a round in which he was kicking Valuevs ass!

More facts.

John Ruiz is the only heavyweight in the history of boxing to have ever lost a title fight to a middleweight. He managed this extraordinary feat not once but twice!


Jameel McCline was beaten by Zuri Lawrence a fighter KO'd in two rounds by the notroriously mediocre Dominic Guinn last week. Lawrence also boasts the 'proud' record of 0 KO's having never knocked an opponent out in his entire career. He himself has been KTFO in both his last two fights however!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by amat

Win percentage does not mean anything. Rocky fought top tier contenders. Granted it wasn't the strongest bunch but they were the top dog's nonetheless.

---

And granted he fought them when they were on their way out so its hard to tell.

The first thing that enters in my mind is how the facts you stated actually work against your point.

Marciano fought people with more losses because they fought men like Marciano.

Well done to landmine950 for taking the time and effort to compile such a list to attempt to make a comparison!!!!
However my analysis will be founded on a much less acute system...my own opinion.

This question is intriguing as we are speaking of two virtual opposites:
Marciano a compact(avoiding the words small or undersized) immenesly powerful fighter of perpetual motion.
And Valuev the enormous (again avoiding alternate wording!) strong but slow and deliberate fighter.

As Marciano is a bonafide legend and Valuev is still something of an entertaining oddity let us just consider 2of eachs most noted wins. Joe Walcott Ezzard Charles VS Monte Barrett Jameel McCline

Sorry no point continuing a KO win for Rocky

If I actually knew how to SC someone. I would do it to the guy who started this thread.

Rocky Marciano- Top 3 all time HW.

Valuev- Don King circus Monkey.

Nuff said.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by landmine950

I was getting bored so I started a post.
I have noticed how Google images used to have 2 pages of images under Valuev,then 4 then 10 now like 25.
Public intrest is spreading

---

Yeah! that or the fact that you're the ONLY one loading up every single picture yourself. :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The Shadow

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by landmine950

Could it be? ...Naw....ridiculous......or is it??

---

:coolclick: For the statistical analysis, which is interesting in and of itself. However, these stats are a bit deceptive. Almost all of Valuev's fights have taken place overseas in Germany and Russia. Many of the fighters on his resume are suspect just because they fought in protected environments and have been shielded from proper high-tier competition.
That being said, Marciano fought and beat American fighters with much more ring experience. Even in light of their losses, Valuev's career has been mainly bolstered by fighting relatively inexperienced Euro-Bums. The fact of the matter is that he hasn't impressed thusfar and making a comparison between him and Marciano is a bit of a stretch to say the least. Statistical analysis doesn't always show the entire story.

---

Its true that Marciano mostly fought Americans. Travel was mostly by boat to fight in Europe. So you could say that he competed against a much smaller talent pool. Sort of The best Fighters in USA vs the best fighters in the world.
Certainly the HW champion of the world today is truly that. And every sphere of the globe has a MUCH deeper base of fighers competeing for regional belts etc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brockton Bomber

If I actually knew how to SC someone. I would do it to the guy who started this thread.

Rocky Marciano- Top 3 all time HW.

Valuev- Don King circus Monkey.

Nuff said.

---

You gotta have 100 posts untill you can 'sad click' someone you'll be there soon.

I just finished reading the entire thread and everytime I read your posts landmine950 a part of me died slowly...... :(

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyle

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by landmine950

I was getting bored so I started a post.
I have noticed how Google images used to have 2 pages of images under Valuev,then 4 then 10 now like 25.
Public intrest is spreading

I would like comments on the statistical analysis.....oh..oh..
Lyle gets a chubby whenever he reads that word,,It has the word anal in it

---

Have you anything to say about the fact that Valuev has fought 23 fighters with only 10 total fights?

and the fact that only 36 of the 46 guys he fought have winning records???

and the fact that 6 of the 46 guys he fought had never won a fight?

---

As I stated the records for Valuev's early fights are not available. They are listed as 0-0-0 for 5 of the fighters.
So that alone brings your numbers down.

removing those unknowns we see that of 46 fights.
ONLY 4 have more losses than wins!
and they were ALL in his first 13 fights
And only 2 fighters had records without a win.
his 7th and 10th fights 0-2, 0-1


Thats why i took the last 25 fighters

Every fighter starts off fighting guys with 0,1,2,3 or so fights when its your pro debut. Esp if you have no AMATUER BACKGROUND.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by landmine950

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The Shadow

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by landmine950

Could it be? ...Naw....ridiculous......or is it??

---

:coolclick: For the statistical analysis, which is interesting in and of itself. However, these stats are a bit deceptive. Almost all of Valuev's fights have taken place overseas in Germany and Russia. Many of the fighters on his resume are suspect just because they fought in protected environments and have been shielded from proper high-tier competition.
That being said, Marciano fought and beat American fighters with much more ring experience. Even in light of their losses, Valuev's career has been mainly bolstered by fighting relatively inexperienced Euro-Bums. The fact of the matter is that he hasn't impressed thusfar and making a comparison between him and Marciano is a bit of a stretch to say the least. Statistical analysis doesn't always show the entire story.

---

Its true that Marciano only fought Americans. Travel was by boat to fight in Europe. So you could say that he competed against a much smaller talent pool. The best Figters in USA vs the best fighters in the world.
Certainly the HW champion of the world today is truly that. And every sphere of the globe has a MUCH deeper base of fighers competeing for regional belts etc.

---

That didn't stop Primo Carnera or Max Schmelling from coming over here, and I'm pretty sure that Schmelling flew.

And Lee Savold too ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The Shadow

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by landmine950

Could it be? ...Naw....ridiculous......or is it??

It's very hard to compare records of old time boxers to modern boxers
Things are very different today.
Old time fighters fought as a job. Except for a select few, Low pay per fight.
This meant that for a guy to be a professional he had to fight lots!
every month to put food on the table. On the average about
2- 3 times as much as a modern fighters.
Most guys had regular day jobs and fought on the side. Few professional trainers, no TV revenue etc.

Can any meaningful numbers crunching be done to create some kind of statistical comparison?

Part of the problem is that some of their opponents records are not available. Marciano's due to age and Valuev's due to the collapse and disorganisation in Russion sports at the start of his career.
Also.
The first fights in a fighters career are most often against easy fighters so that the fighter can develop skill and build confidence and as such are not a genuine "test" of his ability and really add nothing to his record as far as legitimacy goes.

Marciano has a couple and Valuev about 5 opponents who's records are unknown and appear as 0-0-0

Let's look at each fighters last say..25 fights..a time when they should be well into decent "real" fights

Marciano's last 25 opponents had a combined record of

1164 Wins 332 Losses 68 Draws

That gives a Win/fight ratio of 74.42%


Valuev's last 25 opponents have a combined record of

539 Wins 103 Losses and 19 Draws

For a Win/Fight ratio of 81.54%


Also as for which of the 2 groups would be/have been harder to beat and maintain a undefeated record against?

Marciano's last 25 guys had 332 losses or an average of 13.28 per fighter

Valuev's have 103 losses or an average of only 4.12 losses per fighter


For their last 10 fights?

Marciano 114 Losses 11.4 per fighter
Valuev 26 Losses 2.6 per fighter

Conclusion? The guys that Marciano built his record on DID WORSE
against the fighters of his day, than Valuev's opponents have done against modern day fighters

IE Valuev has fought a better caliber of fighers

81.5% win ratio vs 74.4% win ratio


Thoughts??
Please,...Do try and post intelligent and logical arguments and comments, not broad sweeping statements like "all fighters today suck" or other such nonsense


P.S. just for fun..
Here's a pic of Valuev vs John Ruiz who is 6'2 1/2" and weighs 240
Marciano was 5'10" and 190 and as you can see had thick legs.

---

:coolclick: For the statistical analysis, which is interesting in and of itself. However, these stats are a bit deceptive. Almost all of Valuev's fights have taken place overseas in Germany and Russia. Many of the fighters on his resume are suspect just because they fought in protected environments and have been shielded from proper high-tier competition.
That being said, Marciano fought and beat American fighters with much more ring experience. Even in light of their losses, Valuev's career has been mainly bolstered by fighting relatively inexperienced Euro-Bums. The fact of the matter is that he hasn't impressed thusfar and making a comparison between him and Marciano is a bit of a stretch to say the least. Statistical analysis doesn't always show the entire story.

---

American fighters make for more legitimate records?
better tell the Klitschkos that!
But i see your point..

How many non Russian fighters has Valuev fought?

Let's see...40 out of 46 fighters are NON russians and the russians were all in the very early fights..


PS I didn't mean to say ROCKY fought ONLY Americans.
I meant MOSTLY americans.. But certainly Valuev has fought a far more diverse range of nationalities than Rocky due to the times

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CutMeMicK

I just finished reading the entire thread and everytime I read your posts landmine950 a part of me died slowly...... :(

---

A member tries to produce an informative and concise post that takes a bit of time to do. It may be controversial or unpopular or even undefendable. Thats what makes this forum and these discussions interesting IMO. This is the best reply you can come up with? 3 posts in a row slagging me? Your a moderator here? You need to take a few lessons from the class act Wacko3205

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by landmine950

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The Shadow

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by landmine950

Could it be? ...Naw....ridiculous......or is it??

It's very hard to compare records of old time boxers to modern boxers
Things are very different today.
Old time fighters fought as a job. Except for a select few, Low pay per fight.
This meant that for a guy to be a professional he had to fight lots!
every month to put food on the table. On the average about
2- 3 times as much as a modern fighters.
Most guys had regular day jobs and fought on the side. Few professional trainers, no TV revenue etc.

Can any meaningful numbers crunching be done to create some kind of statistical comparison?

Part of the problem is that some of their opponents records are not available. Marciano's due to age and Valuev's due to the collapse and disorganisation in Russion sports at the start of his career.
Also.
The first fights in a fighters career are most often against easy fighters so that the fighter can develop skill and build confidence and as such are not a genuine "test" of his ability and really add nothing to his record as far as legitimacy goes.

Marciano has a couple and Valuev about 5 opponents who's records are unknown and appear as 0-0-0

Let's look at each fighters last say..25 fights..a time when they should be well into decent "real" fights

Marciano's last 25 opponents had a combined record of

1164 Wins 332 Losses 68 Draws

That gives a Win/fight ratio of 74.42%


Valuev's last 25 opponents have a combined record of

539 Wins 103 Losses and 19 Draws

For a Win/Fight ratio of 81.54%


Also as for which of the 2 groups would be/have been harder to beat and maintain a undefeated record against?

Marciano's last 25 guys had 332 losses or an average of 13.28 per fighter

Valuev's have 103 losses or an average of only 4.12 losses per fighter


For their last 10 fights?

Marciano 114 Losses 11.4 per fighter
Valuev 26 Losses 2.6 per fighter

Conclusion? The guys that Marciano built his record on DID WORSE
against the fighters of his day, than Valuev's opponents have done against modern day fighters

IE Valuev has fought a better caliber of fighers

81.5% win ratio vs 74.4% win ratio


Thoughts??
Please,...Do try and post intelligent and logical arguments and comments, not broad sweeping statements like "all fighters today suck" or other such nonsense


P.S. just for fun..
Here's a pic of Valuev vs John Ruiz who is 6'2 1/2" and weighs 240
Marciano was 5'10" and 190 and as you can see had thick legs.

---

:coolclick: For the statistical analysis, which is interesting in and of itself. However, these stats are a bit deceptive. Almost all of Valuev's fights have taken place overseas in Germany and Russia. Many of the fighters on his resume are suspect just because they fought in protected environments and have been shielded from proper high-tier competition.
That being said, Marciano fought and beat American fighters with much more ring experience. Even in light of their losses, Valuev's career has been mainly bolstered by fighting relatively inexperienced Euro-Bums. The fact of the matter is that he hasn't impressed thusfar and making a comparison between him and Marciano is a bit of a stretch to say the least. Statistical analysis doesn't always show the entire story.

---

American fighters make for more legitimate records?
better tell the Klitschkos that!
But i see your point..

How many non Russian fighters has Valuev fought?

Let's see...40 out of 46 fighters are NON russians and the russians were all in the very early fights..


PS I didn't mean to say ROCKY fought ONLY Americans.
I meant MOSTLY americans.. But certainly Valuev has fought a far more diverse range of nationalities than Rocky due to the times

---

to answer your question rocky has fought much better opp than valuev enuff said 8)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by X

Boxing is not about numbers.

Personally, I think the salient point is Marciano was UNDISPUTED world champ and Valuev just holds an alphabet title. Would we be talking about him at all if he was just a top ten contender with one undisputed champ ruling the division?

---

It's not his fault that there are 4 belts. There are 4 times as many belts but there are 40 times as many fighters and the majority of them are 40 times better than the average "club" fighting semi-pro/ditchdiggers of
40's and 50's.
And he's not just a top ten contender anymore He's a belt holder and top ranked fighter by most every organization. Ring mag has him 4th.
BUT the reason people WORLDWIDE ARE talking about him is because his record is creeping up on a legendary number set by an Icon of the
sport. That's why I started this thread. Maybe helps us self proclaimed "fans" brush up on our facts before the general public start spouting opinions at us! LOL!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by landmine950

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by X

Boxing is not about numbers.

Personally, I think the salient point is Marciano was UNDISPUTED world champ and Valuev just holds an alphabet title. Would we be talking about him at all if he was just a top ten contender with one undisputed champ ruling the division?

---

It's not his fault that there are 4 belts. There are 4 times as many belts but there are 40 times as many fighters and the majority of them are 40 times better than the average "club" fighting semi-pro/ditchdiggers of
40's and 50's.
And he's not just a top ten contender anymore He's a belt holder and top ranked fighter by most every organization. Ring mag has him 4th.
BUT the reason people WORLDWIDE ARE talking about him is because his record is creeping up on a legendary number set by an Icon of the
sport. That's why I started this thread. Maybe helps us self proclaimed "fans" brush up on our facts before the general public start spouting opinions at us! LOL!

---

Archie Moore up against valuev opponents Larry Donald
Ezzard Charles John Ruiz
Jersey Joe Walcott Monte Barrett
Joe Louis Jameel McCline

sorry mate just no comparison 8)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by landmine950

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CutMeMicK

I just finished reading the entire thread and everytime I read your posts landmine950 a part of me died slowly...... :(

---

A member tries to produce an informative and concise post that takes a bit of time to do. It may be controversial or unpopular or even undefendable. Thats what makes this forum and these discussions interesting IMO. This is the best reply you can come up with? 3 posts in a row slagging me? Your a moderator here? You need to take a few lessons from the class act Wacko3205

---

Ha!! WackOff3205 and the word class don't belong together..... I should know that, trust me ;)

To be honest how do you expect ANYONE to take you serious when 3 times a week theres a new 'Valuev' thread on here by you?

Now if you did one every know and then guess more people would be serious on it.

And I agree, your threads are controversial and undefendable. But in that case we would have the entire 'Boxing Talk' forum filled with them.
SalTheButcher would fill it with threads on how Zab Judahs the best, I would have it filled with JCC is the GREATEST EVER, El Gamo would fill it with Antonio Margarito threads endless pages..... Though it makes for great controversy thats not necessairly what we are all going for here. Thats also the reason why sometimes when posters keep making repetitive threads on the same subject and on the same things over and over threads are removed.

You put up a thread thats up for debate and I disagreed with it. If you didn't like what I replied you could have ignored it. Thats what I do when I don't like something I read sometimes.....

My comment was making a point if you didn't get what it meant, it's that to compare Marcianos record that of Valuevs at the moment is just stretching it as far as you possibly could.

And since you asked it's very simple. Marciano was THEE Wolrd Heavyweight Champ. Not the WBA Heavyweight Champ.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by landmine950

Quote:

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Originally Posted by X

Boxing is not about numbers.

Personally, I think the salient point is Marciano was UNDISPUTED world champ and Valuev just holds an alphabet title. Would we be talking about him at all if he was just a top ten contender with one undisputed champ ruling the division?

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It's not his fault that there are 4 belts. There are 4 times as many belts but there are 40 times as many fighters and the majority of them are 40 times better than the average "club" fighting semi-pro/ditchdiggers of
40's and 50's.
And he's not just a top ten contender anymore He's a belt holder and top ranked fighter by most every organization. Ring mag has him 4th.
BUT the reason people WORLDWIDE ARE talking about him is because his record is creeping up on a legendary number set by an Icon of the
sport. That's why I started this thread. Maybe helps us self proclaimed "fans" brush up on our facts before the general public start spouting opinions at us! LOL!

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I agree it's not his fault - he is doing the best he can (and seems to behave honourably outside the ring too). I am not criticising the guy, but the fact he only holds a portion of the belt does count against him in an objective argument about his achievements compared to Marcianos.

Incidentally, I think there are much less fighters around than in the 40s and 50s, not ten times more (but I stand to be corrected if anyone has the numbers?)

Howz this grab ya???


Archie Moore 185-23-11 84.47%
Ezzard Charles 89-25-1 77.39%
Jersey Joe Walcott 51-18-2 71.83%
Joe Louis 69-3-0 95.83%
_________
average of the 4 fighters 82.38%


Larry Donald 42-4-3 85.71%
John Ruiz 41-7-1 83.67%
Monte Barrett 31-5-0 86.11%
Jameel McCline 38-7-3 79.16%
________
average of the 4 fighters 83.62%

SO....the record of the "greats" against their peers, is worse than Valuev's modern opponents against theirs.

Take Joe Lewis out and Rocky's opponents Win % drops to 77.9%!

Kind of interesting HUH!?

To Cut Me Mick

I don't think that my post are repetative ,or boring. Obviously people are going to start posts on their own personal favorite topics, and maybe just add to post started by others.
The Giant certainly isn't a fringe topic,and will soon dominate boxing news and media coverage world wide. Deserving or not the heavies get the glory and he's as heavy as they come!
Maybe check my last 4 posts

1) Seperating the Klitschkos
2) The truth about Ali
3) Ali-One tough Irishman
and this one......nearing 2000 views!

Only the Wackos drunken round by rounds get more reads!

Even If you don't think I contribute to this forum, others seem to think differently.

But look who Moore, Charles, Walcott, and Louis lost to!......there is hardly an average fighter that beat them whereas Donald, Ruiz, Barrett, and McCline have been beat by some straight up BUMS.

Landmine, honestly this thread is going to make me have a stroke....Valuev is a fucking bum and he hasn't fought anyone good yet AND he hasn't fought Donald and Ruiz in America which is why he is still undefeated.

The Klitschko's, Sam Peter, Calvin brock, Hasim Rahman, Alexander Povetkin, Audley Harrison, Oliver McCall...even Shannon Briggs could beat Valuev but no one will ever get a shot.


I hope and pray everyday that Chagaev breaks Nicolay's ugly fucking face

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lyle

But look who Moore, Charles, Walcott, and Louis lost to!......there is hardly an average fighter that beat them whereas Donald, Ruiz, Barrett, and McCline have been beat by some straight up BUMS.

Landmine, honestly this thread is going to make me have a stroke....Valuev is a F****** bum and he hasn't fought anyone good yet AND he hasn't fought Donald and Ruiz in America which is why he is still undefeated.

The Klitschko's, Sam Peter, Calvin brock, Hasim Rahman, Alexander Povetkin, Audley Harrison, Oliver McCall...even Shannon Briggs could beat Valuev but no one will ever get a shot.

I hope and pray everyday that Chagaev breaks Nicolay's ugly F****** face

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Look who they lost to?? how can I ?? Its almost 70 Guys!!!
I couldn't even see to the end of a line that long! :o


What are you going to say when Valuev beats one or 2 of them?
OK what will you say IF he beats 1 or 2 of the guys you named?
What excuse are you going to make? That they became bums overnight?
They really were bums but you just didn't realize it? Might as well make the phony excuses now and get it over with. ???

As for you having a stroke...............my work is done here....... ;D