TONEY BALONEY

I have just finished reading a very interesting article in Boxing News about James Toney.

I won't guve you the whole piece because it's too long but i'll try my best to break it down and para-phrase it for you guys.

Gavin Evans writes that altho Toney was a very good fighter he can never be compared to the greats of the modern era such as Roy Jones and Floyd Mayweather amongst others.....

"Let's start at middleweight. Prior to winning the IBF title in 91, two of Toney's wins were via split decision and Sanderline Williams held him to a draw"

He goes on to say that he finally broke through against Michael Nunn in a great fight. Problem was Nunn was weight drained and was well ahead before gtting knocked out. In Toney's first defence he was lucky to get a split against Reggie Johnson. He then went onto to draw with an over the hill Mike McCallum. Two months later he got a hotly disputed split against Dave Tiberi. One judge scored it 117-111 to Tiberi. He then won a majority decision return against the body snatcher Mike McCallum.

So to break it down, his 34 fight record at 160 included basically 5 splits/majorities, 1 dubious win and one plain ridiculous decision. Not exactly top ten status.

Joney did look great at super middle in stopping Iran Barkely and Prince Charles Williams but he then ran into Roy Jones.

Moving up to Light Heavy and he has two losses to Montell Griffin. Two fights after the 2nd reverse, he loses to Drake Thadzi who was 28-8-1 going in.

At Cruiser Toney did enjoy some success but he was over the weight limit in all but 2 of his 12 fights. Vassilly Jirov was his biggest scalp at Cruiser but he went on to lose to MIchael Morrer and Joe Messi so that discredits the win somewhat.

Finally we move up to heavyweight where he has 3 wins from 7 fights. He's only stopped one fighter at heavy and that was a 41 yr old Holyfield. As a former middlweight it's unfair to expect him to KO heavyweights. Then you have the Ruiz victory and the steroid sham, the Rahman draw and the 2 losses to Sam Peter.

So if his record of 69-6-3 impresses you, please consider he never once beat the undisputed number 1 in any division. Strange how records patch over what was quite an erratic career.

Discuss please ;D

CC #112

Although I dont agree with the conclusion, that is an interesting take on Toney

Myself, I love articles and posts like this!
A different viewpoints and good solid comments to help back them up!
I don't think tough fights or close wins tottaly take away from the win itself.
I guess you could take every fight a guys had and try to minimize it to some degree
Still a pretty strong record overall. But I don't think his foray into the HW div really did anything to Crown his legacy.
Also the weight issue hangs on him like a roll of fat and that makes it hard for so many to overlook his lack of conditioning and commitment to give him the credit for the skills he possess.
ALSO.l when a guy yaps and has the "no respect" attitude he raise the bar on himself, maybe too high even for James Toney.
Time and memory may diminish the Toney legacy more than polish it.

First off :coolclick: Ono for one, reading the same boxing mags as me ;D and secondly for taking the time to post up in regards to that one article.

I indeed read it myself (all by my self infact ;D) over the weekend, my blood boiling slowly as I read on!!

I felt that that article was indeed only written in bitter view of the general boxing fan's underestimation of Ezzard Charles.

For a professional writer to lambaste a near general opinion of James Toney and to even dismiss JT himself, at a time were the he clearly is past it, is just petty and weak.

Obviously it was written in the view of hindsight but ive been buying that mag for years and I have not read a professional opinion of Toney so damming since becoming a boxing fanatic. So it only led me to believe that THAT particular writer was only putting those words down for one of two reasons.


Either he was truly annoyed with the references to Toney as "Throwback" ala Ezzard Charles or he simply wanted to be controversial.

I myself don’t refer to James as Ezzardesque at all, never have. I also struggle to remember another boxing fan saying that Toney fights like Ezzard Charles.

Archie Moore yes... But Ezzard?

I think THIS writer has his wires crossed. Very very unprofessional IMO.















Anyway, Boxing News isn’t a patch on Boxing Monthly ^-^







I just wanna make an additional point...

What that article forgot to mention was that A) James fought on to a much older age than Ezzard and B) He was a smaller man who fought much MUCH bigger men once he landed at heavyweight.


This is all. ::**

Very biased article. The guy makes sure to downplay Toney's triumphs (controversial decision, opponent was drained from losing weight, ect) but fails to mention that Toney's losses to Montell Griffen were also hotly disputed, with the commentators and Harold Letterman thinking he won both fights.

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

Very biased article. The guy makes sure to downplay Toney's triumphs (controversial decision, opponent was drained from losing weight, ect) but fails to mention that Toney's losses to Montell Griffen were also hotly disputed, with the commentators and Harold Letterman thinking he won both fights.

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Nicely said :coolclick:

Toney is a great of modern boxing, but it does have to be said that he could have been beyond the imagination if he had had discipline and self control concerning his waistline!

I dont believe theres any arguement to say that toney isnt a great of this era...

He fought great quality fighters in barkley, Jones, Nunn ,mcallum was great at the lower weights...
His skill is and was immense ..A great fighter to watch with an incredible personality..
And like all truely great fighters the fact is that when you are that good.. You can only be defeated by yourself..And toney was defeated by his lack of discipline..
The whole Oh nunn was weight drained for the fight thing..Excuses excuses..
Toney was always weight drained.. Especially in his second fight with mcallum before moving up to super mid..He was even weight drained when he fought jones... And is such a bold and undisciplined character that he shut his camp during part of the training for the jones fight..
Now im the one saying its no excuse ..And its not..Jones had toney's number and toney got the job done against nunn no matter what is said..

Toney faded away for a few years at light heavy and Especially saying..Well he lost twice to griffin..
Im another person who disputed those decisions too.. Sure he wasnt in the lime light..But those losses are no reason to diss on him.. Cos many believe they should be two w's!!

And to have come back on the scene the way he did with the foty with jirov..First major title in 9 years and Put on such a show.. And make the wildest of matchups with holyfield That very few would have been able to predict that match would ever be made.. That stuff was incredible..
And even his losses now..Barr the second peter loss.. They have even been disputed..

And to have never been stopped in 79 fights.. Having moved from middleweight to heavyweight and skipping no division inbetween..And fighting that particular level of competition..
And even looking for his last knowdown hasnt been for about 16 years.. Counting the fact that the peter and the jones knockdowns were pretty much slips..
I think thats fair game to say toney has had an incredible rollercoaster career...
Peace

:coolclick: for an interesting article.

I disagree overall as it's pretty easy to make this kind of argument against any great fighter. Selective combing can make the legacies of Lennox Lewis, Mike Tyson, Bernard Hopkins, Roy Jones and Floyd Mayweather for example look equally weak.

I do think howver that James Toney has underachieved to an extent. He's immensely talented yet has struggled to motivate himself to train over the years, although he clearly loves to fight.

Although their fighting styles are obviously different Toney reminds me most of Roberto Duran. Both are born fighters fighting far more fights than their contemparies, but both struggled to remain motivated and lost or struggled against inferior opposition.

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Originally Posted by Tito_BHB

I dont believe theres any arguement to say that toney isnt a great of this era...

He fought great quality fighters in barkley, Jones, Nunn ,mcallum was great at the lower weights...
His skill is and was immense ..A great fighter to watch with an incredible personality..

I think thats fair game to say toney has had an incredible rollercoaster career...
Peace

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:coolclick: BHB, nice post.

Cool clicks too everyone that posted on that. It wasn't my take on James Toney....it was paraphrased from Boxing News as i said. Over the last few weeks in fact, i have become more interested in James Toney from reading a lot about him in the book 'The Dark Trade'

To have never been stopped is a monumental achievement and yes Boxing Monthly is better than Boxing News ;D

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Originally Posted by ono

To have never been stopped is a monumental achievement and yes Boxing Monthly is better than Boxing News ;D

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Fwockin Ahmen to that ;D
:coolclick:

So would you recomend this book your reading?

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Originally Posted by Jimboogie

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Originally Posted by ono

To have never been stopped is a monumental achievement and yes Boxing Monthly is better than Boxing News ;D

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Fwockin Ahmen to that ;D
:coolclick:

So would you recomend this book your reading?

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Yeah its pretty good. Its called 'The Dark Trade' by Donald Mcrae

A nicely written account of the author's personal journey through boxing in the 90s. The author vividly describes his encounters with some of the big names in the sport: Oscar De La Hoya, Mike Tyson, Evander Holyfield, Roy Jones, Jr. and especially, James Toney. What's interesting about these sections of the book is that McRae really seems to get to know the people he's writing about and is able to reveal sides of their characters that aren't normally seen. I read this over a weekend, neglecting everything else I had planned to do because I couldn't put it down

That's a review from Amazon. Quite long and i took a break from it halfway through to read Ricky Hatton's autobiography which is also very good and pretty funny too.

Infact i would recommend both but especially the dark trade one.

u know i've stopped buying the boxing news cos firstly everytime i bought it i knew most of the stuff innit, secondly there are some writers who write shit about other fighters and yet they havent boxed a single round themselves.

i cant believe gavin evans some white boy has the nerve to write that. seriously toney is a great fighter, if u want i can get flaws out sugar ray robinsons record, jones's record, big georges record, that doesnt mean they not great.
the reason why toney never beat the undisputed champ in any division cos he was the undisputed champ, okay maybe he wasnt, but toney was known for fighting everyone and anyone, and very often. im sick of these writers, they need to be shot dead, okay maybe im goin over the top cos im angry but they try n get ppl down, n its just not fair, seriously!
toney was at one time the p4p king, he has won the Ring fighter of the year twice i think, his record is awesome, he's fought everyone, some of the most dangerous fighters around, he openyl challenged benn and eubank on tv (had the ballz). i mean i've NEVER!!! SEEN A FIGHTER AS COMPLETE AS TONEY BOTH IN THE THE PRACTICAL SIDE OF THINGS AND THE FACT HE FOUGHT EVERYONE AND HAS THE RIGHT MENTALITY (ATTITUDE) THAT A FIGHTER NEEDS OR HAS TO HAVE, THE '#I WILL FIGHT ANYONE ANYWHERE ANYTIME'. the onli james toney wasnt is a big box office draw like tyson, i'll never know why

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Originally Posted by ono

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Originally Posted by Jimboogie

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Originally Posted by ono

To have never been stopped is a monumental achievement and yes Boxing Monthly is better than Boxing News ;D

---

Fwockin Ahmen to that ;D
:coolclick:

So would you recomend this book your reading?

---

Yeah its pretty good. Its called 'The Dark Trade' by Donald Mcrae

A nicely written account of the author's personal journey through boxing in the 90s. The author vividly describes his encounters with some of the big names in the sport: Oscar De La Hoya, Mike Tyson, Evander Holyfield, Roy Jones, Jr. and especially, James Toney. What's interesting about these sections of the book is that McRae really seems to get to know the people he's writing about and is able to reveal sides of their characters that aren't normally seen. I read this over a weekend, neglecting everything else I had planned to do because I couldn't put it down

That's a review from Amazon. Quite long and i took a break from it halfway through to read Ricky Hatton's autobiography which is also very good and pretty funny too.

Infact i would recommend both but especially the dark trade one.

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I'll probably have to find "The Dark Trade". Sounds good!

Not too keen on Auto-Bios on current subjects though (ala Steven Gerrard, Frank Lampard.... Amir Khan :-X )

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Originally Posted by Lionheart Lacy

u know i've stopped buying the boxing news cos firstly everytime i bought it i knew most of the stuff innit, secondly there are some writers who write S*** about other fighters and yet they havent boxed a single round themselves.

i cant believe gavin evans some white boy has the nerve to write that. seriously toney is a great fighter, if u want i can get flaws out sugar ray robinsons record, jones's record, big georges record, that doesnt mean they not great.
the reason why toney never beat the undisputed champ in any division cos he was the undisputed champ, okay maybe he wasnt, but toney was known for fighting everyone and anyone, and very often. im sick of these writers, they need to be shot dead, okay maybe im goin over the top cos im angry but they try n get ppl down, n its just not fair, seriously!
toney was at one time the p4p king, he has won the Ring fighter of the year twice i think, his record is awesome, he's fought everyone, some of the most dangerous fighters around, he openyl challenged benn and eubank on tv (had the ballz). i mean i've NEVER!!! SEEN A FIGHTER AS COMPLETE AS TONEY BOTH IN THE THE PRACTICAL SIDE OF THINGS AND THE FACT HE FOUGHT EVERYONE AND HAS THE RIGHT MENTALITY (ATTITUDE) THAT A FIGHTER NEEDS OR HAS TO HAVE, THE '#I WILL FIGHT ANYONE ANYWHERE ANYTIME'. the onli james toney wasnt is a big box office draw like tyson, i'll never know why

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Mate i know just how you feel! Thats why i was glad Ono posted such a well composed peice.

If i wanted to talk about Gavin Evans off my own back, i would of probably been banned or would of at least had to remove the whole thread pretty quickly ;D ::**

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Originally Posted by Lionheart Lacy

u know i've stopped buying the boxing news cos firstly everytime i bought it i knew most of the stuff innit, secondly there are some writers who write shit about other fighters and yet they havent boxed a single round themselves.
i cant believe gavin evans some white boy has the nerve to write that. seriously toney is a great fighter, if u want i can get flaws out sugar ray robinsons record, jones's record, big georges record, that doesnt mean they not great.
the reason why toney never beat the undisputed champ in any division cos he was the undisputed champ, okay maybe he wasnt, but toney was known for fighting everyone and anyone, and very often. im sick of these writers, they need to be shot dead, okay maybe im goin over the top cos im angry but they try n get ppl down, n its just not fair, seriously!
toney was at one time the p4p king, he has won the Ring fighter of the year twice i think, his record is awesome, he's fought everyone, some of the most dangerous fighters around, he openyl challenged benn and eubank on tv (had the ballz). i mean i've NEVER!!! SEEN A FIGHTER AS COMPLETE AS TONEY BOTH IN THE THE PRACTICAL SIDE OF THINGS AND THE FACT HE FOUGHT EVERYONE AND HAS THE RIGHT MENTALITY (ATTITUDE) THAT A FIGHTER NEEDS OR HAS TO HAVE, THE '#I WILL FIGHT ANYONE ANYWHERE ANYTIME'. the onli james toney wasnt is a big box office draw like tyson, i'll never know why

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While agree that the column was biased i dont agree with Toney being the most complete fighter ever. I do think his record flatters him a little. Just to pick apart your post a little bit.....

You say you have stopped buying the Boxing News because you are a know all and because the writers dont have any ring experience....well neither do most posters on here yet your happy to post on the site?????

Also i don't know what you mean by WHITE BOY. Thats slightly racist and insinuates that White people are not allowed to write about black people and vice versa. Why does colour have to come into it??? Do white people only know about white boxers and vice versa?

Can you name one division where Toney did deserve to be undisputed number 1?

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Originally Posted by Jimboogie

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Originally Posted by ono

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Originally Posted by Jimboogie

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Originally Posted by ono

To have never been stopped is a monumental achievement and yes Boxing Monthly is better than Boxing News ;D

---

Fwockin Ahmen to that ;D
:coolclick:

So would you recomend this book your reading?

---

Yeah its pretty good. Its called 'The Dark Trade' by Donald Mcrae

A nicely written account of the author's personal journey through boxing in the 90s. The author vividly describes his encounters with some of the big names in the sport: Oscar De La Hoya, Mike Tyson, Evander Holyfield, Roy Jones, Jr. and especially, James Toney. What's interesting about these sections of the book is that McRae really seems to get to know the people he's writing about and is able to reveal sides of their characters that aren't normally seen. I read this over a weekend, neglecting everything else I had planned to do because I couldn't put it down

That's a review from Amazon. Quite long and i took a break from it halfway through to read Ricky Hatton's autobiography which is also very good and pretty funny too.

Infact i would recommend both but especially the dark trade one.

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I'll probably have to find "The Dark Trade". Sounds good!

Not too keen on Auto-Bios on current subjects though (ala Steven Gerrard, Frank Lampard.... Amir Khan :-X )

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Lol neither is Joey Barton. Are you watching the England game tonight?

Haha, yeah wonder what was said between those lads during their training sessions ;D

Im watching it... Never missed an England game, never will! :P

Alright, im a Liverpool fan right, but im getting bored of looking at Crouch's bean head in a fwockin England shirt.

Johnson and Defoe must have a disabillity i dont know about?

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Originally Posted by Jimboogie

Haha, yeah wonder what was said between those lads during their training sessions ;D

Im watching it... Never missed an England game, never will! :P

Alright, im a Liverpool fan right, but im getting bored of looking at Crouch's bean head in a fwockin England shirt.

Johnson and Defoe must have a disabillity i dont know about?

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I'm a man city fan.

I quite like Crouchy. I think Johnson is injured. Dyer is playin upfront i think. Bit silly really.

I'm interested to see how Barton does.

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Originally Posted by ono

Can you name one division where Toney did deserve to be undisputed number 1?

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Yes. He didn't reign any division for a long time, or unify.. but after he beat Michael Nunn at middleweight I doubt anyone was regarded as the top dog other than him, especially after he defended against guys like Reggie Johnson and McCallum... Then when he moved up to super middleweight and beat Iran Barkley he was regarded by many as the no.1 p4p fighter in the world, and he remained in the top of the rankings and as the top dog at SMW beating guys like Charles Williams and Tim Littles.. After he lost Roy Jones he perhaps never quite gained the same status back, but I don't think it could be argued that Vassily Jirov was the undisputed number 1 at cruiser, and a great fighter, and Toney was very impressive beating him so you'd have to figure he was no.1 there for a short period. Really just a shame he didn't stay at cruiser in hindsight, but Im sure his lazy ass would have balooned up too much anyways. Really couldnt' see anyone who'd even have given him a good fight at cruiser unless Byrd had moved down a couple years back.

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Originally Posted by p4pking

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Originally Posted by ono

Can you name one division where Toney did deserve to be undisputed number 1?

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Yes. He didn't reign any division for a long time, or unify.. but after he beat Michael Nunn at middleweight I doubt anyone was regarded as the top dog other than him, especially after he defended against guys like Reggie Johnson and McCallum... Then when he moved up to super middleweight and beat Iran Barkley he was regarded by many as the no.1 p4p fighter in the world, and he remained in the top of the rankings and as the top dog at SMW beating guys like Charles Williams and Tim Littles.. After he lost Roy Jones he perhaps never quite gained the same status back, but I don't think it could be argued that Vassily Jirov was the undisputed number 1 at cruiser, and a great fighter, and Toney was very impressive beating him so you'd have to figure he was no.1 there for a short period. Really just a shame he didn't stay at cruiser in hindsight, but Im sure his lazy ass would have balooned up too much anyways. Really couldnt' see anyone who'd even have given him a good fight at cruiser unless Byrd had moved down a couple years back.

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Good posting again, thanks for that. That was me generally asking that question because James Toney's early career is not something i'm totally familiar with.

I have seen the Nunn fight and that was enjoyable but he was trailing by quite a margin before the KO. Was McCallum past it when they fought?

first thing first, i dont buy the boxingnews cos i used to know everything innit, what i meant was all the news was old and all over the net. so wahst the point. also sometimes i didnt agree with what the writers had to say , they were very biased alot of the time, they seemed like old guys who have watched alot of boxing but still dont know shit. btw toney is a complete fighter, u have to be blind not to see that. he could box, he could slug, and he could fight a boxer and counterpunch a slugger, thats called complete, he also has a solid heart, and a stubborness and determination not seen since chris eubanks. on top of all that he has the attitude of a fighter, a true badass. anyways i think he has proved this cos he wont have been champ at middleweight, smw, and hold a title a light heavyweigjht, world title at cruiserweight and held a title at HW if he wasnt a complete fighter. i mean jeff lacy may have been super middleweigjht champ but becos of his size and style, he wont have been champ at the divisions above his cos he is not well rounded n cant adapt.

i remember seeing in the boxing news when i first started buying it, when he wasn gonna fight ruiz. i didnt know much about boxing abroad back then, toney was very a big hat and he looked likea cool bastrd. that writer put it best, ' your not ordinary with almost 80 professional fights, neva being ko'd and onli losing 4 fights!' and its true, the guy comes into fights with a belly or sometimes in shape and he wins, n does it in stylethats the sign of greatness, yes thats right mr dumbass gavin evans! n on top of that he has the aura that jus makes him look like a true badass!

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Originally Posted by ono

I have just finished reading a very interesting article in Boxing News about James Toney.

I won't guve you the whole piece because it's too long but i'll try my best to break it down and para-phrase it for you guys.

Gavin Evans writes that altho Toney was a very good fighter he can never be compared to the greats of the modern era such as Roy Jones and Floyd Mayweather amongst others.....

"Let's start at middleweight. Prior to winning the IBF title in 91, two of Toney's wins were via split decision and Sanderline Williams held him to a draw"

He goes on to say that he finally broke through against Michael Nunn in a great fight. Problem was Nunn was weight drained and was well ahead before gtting knocked out. In Toney's first defence he was lucky to get a split against Reggie Johnson. He then went onto to draw with an over the hill Mike McCallum. Two months later he got a hotly disputed split against Dave Tiberi. One judge scored it 117-111 to Tiberi. He then won a majority decision return against the body snatcher Mike McCallum.

So to break it down, his 34 fight record at 160 included basically 5 splits/majorities, 1 dubious win and one plain ridiculous decision. Not exactly top ten status.

Joney did look great at super middle in stopping Iran Barkely and Prince Charles Williams but he then ran into Roy Jones.

Moving up to Light Heavy and he has two losses to Montell Griffin. Two fights after the 2nd reverse, he loses to Drake Thadzi who was 28-8-1 going in.

At Cruiser Toney did enjoy some success but he was over the weight limit in all but 2 of his 12 fights. Vassilly Jirov was his biggest scalp at Cruiser but he went on to lose to MIchael Morrer and Joe Messi so that discredits the win somewhat.

Finally we move up to heavyweight where he has 3 wins from 7 fights. He's only stopped one fighter at heavy and that was a 41 yr old Holyfield. As a former middlweight it's unfair to expect him to KO heavyweights. Then you have the Ruiz victory and the steroid sham, the Rahman draw and the 2 losses to Sam Peter.

So if his record of 69-6-3 impresses you, please consider he never once beat the undisputed number 1 in any division. Strange how records patch over what was quite an erratic career.

Discuss please ;D

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:fyou: :liar: :LOLATYOU: :sadclick: You are an infidel and I declare Jihad on you and your followers. >:mad :P

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Originally Posted by ono

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Originally Posted by p4pking

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Originally Posted by ono

Can you name one division where Toney did deserve to be undisputed number 1?

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Yes. He didn't reign any division for a long time, or unify.. but after he beat Michael Nunn at middleweight I doubt anyone was regarded as the top dog other than him, especially after he defended against guys like Reggie Johnson and McCallum... Then when he moved up to super middleweight and beat Iran Barkley he was regarded by many as the no.1 p4p fighter in the world, and he remained in the top of the rankings and as the top dog at SMW beating guys like Charles Williams and Tim Littles.. After he lost Roy Jones he perhaps never quite gained the same status back, but I don't think it could be argued that Vassily Jirov was the undisputed number 1 at cruiser, and a great fighter, and Toney was very impressive beating him so you'd have to figure he was no.1 there for a short period. Really just a shame he didn't stay at cruiser in hindsight, but Im sure his lazy a** would have balooned up too much anyways. Really couldnt' see anyone who'd even have given him a good fight at cruiser unless Byrd had moved down a couple years back.

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Good posting again, thanks for that. That was me generally asking that question because James Toney's early career is not something i'm totally familiar with.

I have seen the Nunn fight and that was enjoyable but he was trailing by quite a margin before the KO. Was McCallum past it when they fought?

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A bit past it, they fought 3 times so I suppose moreso each time. 3rd happened later at light heacy or even cruiser though.. But he was still great in their first 2 fights and a clear top contender at middle. Watch their first fight McCallum battles Toney to a draw, great fight too. Thing is Toney was very raw in those days, he had a few very close, shaky starts to his middleweight campaign. Yes he was trailing when he stopped Nunn, it was a good fight but he was decisevly losing most rounds. Although you could argue he won the war of attrition as he started to do better and better in the mid rounds and was much fresher than Nunn when he stopped him. Wasn't just a big punch out of nowhere that people make it out to be. Reggie Johnson was a hell of a fighter in those days too. Nunn, McCallum, and Johnson would have stood head and shoulders above anyone else he could have met at 160 at that time.. It's funny because Middleweight is probably the division where he is most accomplished even though he was far from a finished product those days.. Just goes to show what the guy could have done if he'd mantained a good level of fitness and managed his weight to go along with the skills he developed.

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Originally Posted by The Shadow

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Originally Posted by ono

I have just finished reading a very interesting article in Boxing News about James Toney.

I won't guve you the whole piece because it's too long but i'll try my best to break it down and para-phrase it for you guys.

Gavin Evans writes that altho Toney was a very good fighter he can never be compared to the greats of the modern era such as Roy Jones and Floyd Mayweather amongst others.....

"Let's start at middleweight. Prior to winning the IBF title in 91, two of Toney's wins were via split decision and Sanderline Williams held him to a draw"

He goes on to say that he finally broke through against Michael Nunn in a great fight. Problem was Nunn was weight drained and was well ahead before gtting knocked out. In Toney's first defence he was lucky to get a split against Reggie Johnson. He then went onto to draw with an over the hill Mike McCallum. Two months later he got a hotly disputed split against Dave Tiberi. One judge scored it 117-111 to Tiberi. He then won a majority decision return against the body snatcher Mike McCallum.

So to break it down, his 34 fight record at 160 included basically 5 splits/majorities, 1 dubious win and one plain ridiculous decision. Not exactly top ten status.

Joney did look great at super middle in stopping Iran Barkely and Prince Charles Williams but he then ran into Roy Jones.

Moving up to Light Heavy and he has two losses to Montell Griffin. Two fights after the 2nd reverse, he loses to Drake Thadzi who was 28-8-1 going in.

At Cruiser Toney did enjoy some success but he was over the weight limit in all but 2 of his 12 fights. Vassilly Jirov was his biggest scalp at Cruiser but he went on to lose to MIchael Morrer and Joe Messi so that discredits the win somewhat.

Finally we move up to heavyweight where he has 3 wins from 7 fights. He's only stopped one fighter at heavy and that was a 41 yr old Holyfield. As a former middlweight it's unfair to expect him to KO heavyweights. Then you have the Ruiz victory and the steroid sham, the Rahman draw and the 2 losses to Sam Peter.

So if his record of 69-6-3 impresses you, please consider he never once beat the undisputed number 1 in any division. Strange how records patch over what was quite an erratic career.

Discuss please ;D

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:fyou: :liar: :LOLATYOU: :sadclick: You are an infidel and I declare Jihad on you and your followers. >:mad :P

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Sad click back you great big spanner. That article wasn't my opinion. I was para-phrasing from Boxing News magazine.

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Originally Posted by p4pking

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Originally Posted by ono

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Originally Posted by p4pking

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Originally Posted by ono

Can you name one division where Toney did deserve to be undisputed number 1?

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Yes. He didn't reign any division for a long time, or unify.. but after he beat Michael Nunn at middleweight I doubt anyone was regarded as the top dog other than him, especially after he defended against guys like Reggie Johnson and McCallum... Then when he moved up to super middleweight and beat Iran Barkley he was regarded by many as the no.1 p4p fighter in the world, and he remained in the top of the rankings and as the top dog at SMW beating guys like Charles Williams and Tim Littles.. After he lost Roy Jones he perhaps never quite gained the same status back, but I don't think it could be argued that Vassily Jirov was the undisputed number 1 at cruiser, and a great fighter, and Toney was very impressive beating him so you'd have to figure he was no.1 there for a short period. Really just a shame he didn't stay at cruiser in hindsight, but Im sure his lazy a** would have balooned up too much anyways. Really couldnt' see anyone who'd even have given him a good fight at cruiser unless Byrd had moved down a couple years back.

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Good posting again, thanks for that. That was me generally asking that question because James Toney's early career is not something i'm totally familiar with.

I have seen the Nunn fight and that was enjoyable but he was trailing by quite a margin before the KO. Was McCallum past it when they fought?

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A bit past it, they fought 3 times so I suppose moreso each time. 3rd happened later at light heacy or even cruiser though.. But he was still great in their first 2 fights and a clear top contender at middle. Watch their first fight McCallum battles Toney to a draw, great fight too. Thing is Toney was very raw in those days, he had a few very close, shaky starts to his middleweight campaign. Yes he was trailing when he stopped Nunn, it was a good fight but he was decisevly losing most rounds. Although you could argue he won the war of attrition as he started to do better and better in the mid rounds and was much fresher than Nunn when he stopped him. Wasn't just a big punch out of nowhere that people make it out to be. Reggie Johnson was a hell of a fighter in those days too. Nunn, McCallum, and Johnson would have stood head and shoulders above anyone else he could have met at 160 at that time.. It's funny because Middleweight is probably the division where he is most accomplished even though he was far from a finished product those days.. Just goes to show what the guy could have done if he'd mantained a good level of fitness and managed his weight to go along with the skills he developed.

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CC #321. Thanks for that input. I'll try and get hold of a few Toney fights. The only ones i have are the Nunn fight and the Roy Jones fight.

I only have two myself.

Jirov & Holyfield.

Brilliant shows, the pair of em.