what matters more quality of opponents or records?

i bring this up because people view surgar ray robonson as the all time best fighter -with 173-19-6....absolutily amazing,

compared to ALI's 56-5

both really didnt lose fights till they were "old men"

if u go strictly by records then sugar ray is greater,but if u go by quality of opponents ali is greater
lets face it ali had the greatest oppostion and beat the biggest names 2 me that makes him the greatest
well robinson was unbeatable --tru but b4 ali's exile...ali was unbeatable when he came back he was never the same

I would have to go with the quality of opponents, records can be blown up against weak opposition. As far as quality of opposition between SRR and Ali, the only difference is that you hear more about Ali's opposition because they were heavyweights and that is the division that has and will garner the most attention through out time. But I think that SRR's record stands up with anybody's.

then you have to ask the question of how do you determine make quality oppostion.

After Ali was losing as an "OLD MAN" Ray robinson had 50 fights!
He was 29 when he lost to Frazier
He was 31 when he lost to Norton
he was 36 when he lost to Spinks (a 6 and 1 fighter!)
he was 38 when he lost to Holmes
he was 39 when he lost to Berbick
He sure must have "peaked" early!

Holmes won the WBC title at 29 and defended it 20 times!
He faced Micheal Spinks at age 36, was he Old then?
He had 26 fights AFTER that!

Foreman won the wba and ibf title at the age of 45!
6 years after people make excuses for the "greatest" being "too old"

People make excuses for Ali's losses, layoff,age etc.
He lost to Norton then won a narrow split decision
He lost to Fraizer who Foreman DESTROYED TWICE!
He lost to Leon who was 6-1! come on!! 6-1! think about it!!
Can you Imagine say.. Vitali Klitschko even fighting a 6-1 guy?? never mind losing!! Say Wlad lost to a guy 6-1 then beat him in a rematch. Would you make a big deal out of 3 TIME WORLD CHAMPION.....think about it!

I think Ali was like Tyson..a bright star that burnt out fast. great against lesser guys but when he met other good fighters had all (or more) than he could handle. Even average or crappy fighters on a good day (leon,buster) beat them both and fighters with limitations of size (Frazier,Evander) beat them.

I don't think Ali was that great and certainly NOT the "greatest" Period. He was however the greatest SALESMAN of all time. And he sold you!

People think a guy was great because he was in great fights.
2 average fighter build a legend because of great matches (gatti/ward)
then you see them against a "real" great fighter and they looklike sh1t!

If ALI was so great then so are Fraizer,Norton,Leon,etc....and guess what.....there not..
great for the sport, yes.
great exciting fights, yes
The greatest of all time........Not even close

IMO

Quote:

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Originally Posted by undefeated

i bring this up because people view surgar ray robonson as the all time best fighter -with 173-19-6....absolutily amazing,

compared to ALI's 56-5

both really didnt lose fights till they were "old men"

if u go strictly by records then sugar ray is greater,but if u go by quality of opponents ali is greater
lets face it ali had the greatest oppostion and beat the biggest names 2 me that makes him the greatest
well robinson was unbeatable --tru but b4 ali's exile...ali was unbeatable when he came back he was never the same

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ALI IS OVERRATED

At one point in his career Sugar Ray Robinson was 128-1-2. Even Ali will tell you Sugar Ray was the best of all time. Hands down.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by No Contest

At one point in his career Sugar Ray Robinson was 128-1-2. Even Ali will tell you Sugar Ray was the best of all time. Hands down.

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Agreed totally. Quality of opponents is far far better.records can be manipulated,some these current fighters may have an 0 but look at who they have fought!

A great example is Oscar De La Hoya,I respect him much much much more for the people he has fought(this guy DUCKS NO ONE) than for the fact that he is like a 7 weight champion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GOLDENBOY213

Quote:

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Originally Posted by undefeated

i bring this up because people view surgar ray robonson as the all time best fighter -with 173-19-6....absolutily amazing,

compared to ALI's 56-5

both really didnt lose fights till they were "old men"

if u go strictly by records then sugar ray is greater,but if u go by quality of opponents ali is greater
lets face it ali had the greatest oppostion and beat the biggest names 2 me that makes him the greatest
well robinson was unbeatable --tru but b4 ali's exile...ali was unbeatable when he came back he was never the same

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ALI IS OVERRATED

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I have heard a lot of stupid comments on these boards over the last couple of years...That is TOPS!!!!!......Ali is over rated???......Do you watch boxing?...Have you ever seen an Ali fight?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by undefeated

i bring this up because people view surgar ray robonson as the all time best fighter -with 173-19-6....absolutily amazing,

compared to ALI's 56-5

both really didnt lose fights till they were "old men"

if u go strictly by records then sugar ray is greater,but if u go by quality of opponents ali is greater
lets face it ali had the greatest oppostion and beat the biggest names 2 me that makes him the greatest
well robinson was unbeatable --tru but b4 ali's exile...ali was unbeatable when he came back he was never the same

---

To say Ali had better opponents is just a matter of opp.....

Ray Robinson has some of the most impressive list of comp ever.....

Marty Servo
Joey Maxim
Sammy Angott
Fritzie Zivic
Jake LaMotta
Henry Armstrong
Kid Gavilin
Bobo Olsen
Randy Turpin
Rocky Graziano
Gene Fullermer
Carmen Basilio
Just to name a few....Each a HOF fighter

Quote:

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At one point in his career Sugar Ray Robinson was 128-1-2. Even Ali will tell you Sugar Ray was the best of all time. Hands down.

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oh i think a mr floyd mayweather jr would disagree.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBVNXtxvPuo

he's better than all of em (apparently). he's faught and beat the best his whole carear (ha ha ha ha).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TyBuff

I would have to go with the quality of opponents, records can be blown up against weak opposition. As far as quality of opposition between SRR and Ali, the only difference is that you hear more about Ali's opposition because they were heavyweights and that is the division that has and will garner the most attention through out time. But I think that SRR's record stands up with anybody's.

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Exactly ....the HW division is and has always been the glamor division..the attention getter..look how crappy the HW division is now and how much attention it still gets......but I always go with Quality over quantity

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Originally Posted by landmine950

After Ali was losing as an "OLD MAN" Ray robinson had 50 fights!
He was 29 when he lost to Frazier
He was 31 when he lost to Norton
he was 36 when he lost to Spinks (a 6 and 1 fighter!)
he was 38 when he lost to Holmes
he was 39 when he lost to Berbick
He sure must have "peaked" early!

Holmes won the WBC title at 29 and defended it 20 times!
He faced Micheal Spinks at age 36, was he Old then?
He had 26 fights AFTER that!

Foreman won the wba and ibf title at the age of 45!
6 years after people make excuses for the "greatest" being "too old"

People make excuses for Ali's losses, layoff,age etc.
He lost to Norton then won a narrow split decision
He lost to Fraizer who Foreman DESTROYED TWICE!
He lost to Leon who was 6-1! come on!! 6-1! think about it!!
Can you Imagine say.. Vitali Klitschko even fighting a 6-1 guy?? never mind losing!! Say Wlad lost to a guy 6-1 then beat him in a rematch. Would you make a big deal out of 3 TIME WORLD CHAMPION.....think about it!

I think Ali was like Tyson..a bright star that burnt out fast. great against lesser guys but when he met other good fighters had all (or more) than he could handle. Even average or crappy fighters on a good day (leon,buster) beat them both and fighters with limitations of size (Frazier,Evander) beat them.

I don't think Ali was that great and certainly NOT the "greatest" Period. He was however the greatest SALESMAN of all time. And he sold you!

People think a guy was great because he was in great fights.
2 average fighter build a legend because of great matches (gatti/ward)
then you see them against a "real" great fighter and they looklike sh1t!

If ALI was so great then so are Fraizer,Norton,Leon,etc....and guess what.....there not..
great for the sport, yes.
great exciting fights, yes
The greatest of all time........Not even close

IMO

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You seem to over looking the fact that fighters peak at different ages. Tyson peaked in his early 20's for example. Naseem peaked real early. Hopkins peaked in his later years. So unless your about 50, age is irrelevant.

The examples you used are completely pointless. Frazier beat Ali yet Foreman destroyed Frazier???? Pointless example because Foreman had the power to hurt Frazier far more than Ali did. Take away Foreman's power and you have a closer fight. Like Ali's. Different fighters struggle with different styles. Simple as.

Are you trying to say that Foreman is better than Ali?

Because guess what, Ali found a style to beat Foreman with.

I'd add 'skill' to that. It should be the combination of all of them. That is, the best fighter should be a well-balanced package of skill, quality of opposition and a good record. But I think the quality of opposition is the most important here provided, of course, a boxer wins against them (top class fighters). A skill not used against the best is like a uncut diamond lying underneath the earth. Records can be very misleading. I remember this guy named Carlos Zarate who had an incredible record of 50 or so fights and all wins and I think 49 K0's, something like that. But there was lots of talks then that his opponents were all so-called cab drivers (just an expression, no offense) instead of jet pilots. Once he faced some real deal fighters, like Wilfredo Gomez, he was almost done and have never been the same ever since.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by El Gamo

A great example is Oscar De La Hoya,I respect him much much much more for the people he has fought(this guy DUCKS NO ONE) than for the fact that he is like a 7 weight champion.

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Sounds like Pac to me!!! :) :) :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DaxxKahn

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GOLDENBOY213

ALI IS OVERRATED

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I have heard a lot of stupid comments on these boards over the last couple of years...That is TOPS!!!!!......Ali is over rated???......Do you watch boxing?...Have you ever seen an Ali fight?

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Most people who say that don't really know much about what true boxing is really all about. I suspect most of them think boxing is all about chargin' and sluggin'. The old school influence made us think that boxing was all about mindless brutality then. I know cuz I was one of them before I came here at the saddo's. And when I reexamined some of Ali's early fights, then I found out why he is called the best (never mind him calling himself best too). His influence is so strong that many of the top fighters after him, especially those so-called 'slick' fighters, imitated his style from SRL to PBF, and not to mention Bruce Lee - remember his Ali footwork in one of his movies? But almost all who emulate his style are the lighter weight fighters. Why? It's simple - because most heavyweight fighter simply can't do that - especially the 'float like butterfly' part.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by undefeated

i bring this up because people view surgar ray robonson as the all time best fighter -with 173-19-6....absolutily amazing,

compared to ALI's 56-5

both really didnt lose fights till they were "old men"

if u go strictly by records then sugar ray is greater,but if u go by quality of opponents ali is greater
lets face it ali had the greatest oppostion and beat the biggest names 2 me that makes him the greatest
well robinson was unbeatable --tru but b4 ali's exile...ali was unbeatable when he came back he was never the same

---

Quality of opponents matters more, although like anything, you have to judge it on a case-by-case basis. Records are deceiving because they hurt fighters who stay around too long, and most great fighters stay around too long.
You have to remove losses that fighters suffer way after their skills have left them. I don't penalize Holyfield for losing to James Toney, or Tyson for losing to McBride, Ali to Berbick, Chavez to Tszyu, Duran to Pazienza, etc. etc. Because those guys were so past their prime that they didn't even resemble the guys they were at a younger age.
Robinson's 19 losses don't matter. What matters is that he was something like 135-1 at one point.

quality of opponents no doubt, but also performance plays a big part determining a great fighter against quality oppenents.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by landmine950

After Ali was losing as an "OLD MAN" Ray robinson had 50 fights!
He was 29 when he lost to Frazier
He was 31 when he lost to Norton
he was 36 when he lost to Spinks (a 6 and 1 fighter!)
he was 38 when he lost to Holmes
he was 39 when he lost to Berbick
He sure must have "peaked" early!

Holmes won the WBC title at 29 and defended it 20 times!
He faced Micheal Spinks at age 36, was he Old then?
He had 26 fights AFTER that!

Foreman won the wba and ibf title at the age of 45!
6 years after people make excuses for the "greatest" being "too old"

People make excuses for Ali's losses, layoff,age etc.
He lost to Norton then won a narrow split decision
He lost to Fraizer who Foreman DESTROYED TWICE!
He lost to Leon who was 6-1! come on!! 6-1! think about it!!
Can you Imagine say.. Vitali Klitschko even fighting a 6-1 guy?? never mind losing!! Say Wlad lost to a guy 6-1 then beat him in a rematch. Would you make a big deal out of 3 TIME WORLD CHAMPION.....think about it!

I think Ali was like Tyson..a bright star that burnt out fast. great against lesser guys but when he met other good fighters had all (or more) than he could handle. Even average or crappy fighters on a good day (leon,buster) beat them both and fighters with limitations of size (Frazier,Evander) beat them.

I don't think Ali was that great and certainly NOT the "greatest" Period. He was however the greatest SALESMAN of all time. And he sold you!

People think a guy was great because he was in great fights.
2 average fighter build a legend because of great matches (gatti/ward)
then you see them against a "real" great fighter and they looklike sh1t!

If ALI was so great then so are Fraizer,Norton,Leon,etc....and guess what.....there not..
great for the sport, yes.
great exciting fights, yes
The greatest of all time........Not even close

IMO

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frazier was great fighter but ali beat him 2-1 so whats your point ?? norton was very tricky guy who gave ali and alot of boxers trouble it was just big punches norton didnt fare against and still ali won 2-1 and im not even going to go into losses when he was 36 because you know he had head damage and was way past it so its not even worth arguing

He lost to Fraizer who Foreman DESTROYED TWICE!= and whats that got to go with anything that foreman was too big and too strong with fraizer and had his number and ?? all boxers have eachothers numbers thats how it works

Holmes won the WBC title at 29 and defended it 20 times!
He faced Micheal Spinks at age 36, was he Old then?
He had 26 fights AFTER that= and ?? if you watch holmes vs say shavers and against spinks he is shadow of his former self

ok so you pick alis record apart what about your hero valuev

john ruiz a guy that valuez got gift decision against lets have a look at ruiz record he was koed in 1 by david tua just about got sd against jimmy thunder going 1-1-1 with old holyfield losing to natrual middleweight not once oh no he lost twice but it was no contest and got saved getting gift decision against andrew golota and ruiz was dropped twice in that fight

valuez got another gift decision against old and shot larry donald

jeez i could gone of forever 8)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SweetPea

Quote:

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Originally Posted by undefeated

i bring this up because people view surgar ray robonson as the all time best fighter -with 173-19-6....absolutily amazing,

compared to ALI's 56-5

both really didnt lose fights till they were "old men"

if u go strictly by records then sugar ray is greater,but if u go by quality of opponents ali is greater
lets face it ali had the greatest oppostion and beat the biggest names 2 me that makes him the greatest
well robinson was unbeatable --tru but b4 ali's exile...ali was unbeatable when he came back he was never the same

---

Quality of opponents matters more, although like anything, you have to judge it on a case-by-case basis. Records are deceiving because they hurt fighters who stay around too long, and most great fighters stay around too long.
You have to remove losses that fighters suffer way after their skills have left them. I don't penalize Holyfield for losing to James Toney, or Tyson for losing to McBride, Ali to Berbick, Chavez to Tszyu, Duran to Pazienza, etc. etc. Because those guys were so past their prime that they didn't even resemble the guys they were at a younger age.
Robinson's 19 losses don't matter. What matters is that he was something like 135-1 at one point.

---

thats very true--just as i wouldnt count ali's last 2. i think ali is the best because he beat 2 indestructable fighters sonny liston and george foreman.

plus i consider the 60's ali b4 his retirement the true ali. he lost so much, when he came back that --he was a shadow of the float and sting ali.

look at ali vs folley.....then ali vs quarry, bonevana and frazier---not the same guy
ali never had his prime--
i think if he had a prime he woulda shattered marciano's record and louis title defense record

has robinson beat anyfighter who was looked at as invincible, like ali?
plus ali was a heavyweight and was faster then robinson.
ali was great he made good fighters look bad and would even play around with them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING

Quote:

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Originally Posted by landmine950

After Ali was losing as an "OLD MAN" Ray robinson had 50 fights!
He was 29 when he lost to Frazier
He was 31 when he lost to Norton
he was 36 when he lost to Spinks (a 6 and 1 fighter!)
he was 38 when he lost to Holmes
he was 39 when he lost to Berbick
He sure must have "peaked" early!

Holmes won the WBC title at 29 and defended it 20 times!
He faced Micheal Spinks at age 36, was he Old then?
He had 26 fights AFTER that!

Foreman won the wba and ibf title at the age of 45!
6 years after people make excuses for the "greatest" being "too old"

People make excuses for Ali's losses, layoff,age etc.
He lost to Norton then won a narrow split decision
He lost to Fraizer who Foreman DESTROYED TWICE!
He lost to Leon who was 6-1! come on!! 6-1! think about it!!
Can you Imagine say.. Vitali Klitschko even fighting a 6-1 guy?? never mind losing!! Say Wlad lost to a guy 6-1 then beat him in a rematch. Would you make a big deal out of 3 TIME WORLD CHAMPION.....think about it!

I think Ali was like Tyson..a bright star that burnt out fast. great against lesser guys but when he met other good fighters had all (or more) than he could handle. Even average or crappy fighters on a good day (leon,buster) beat them both and fighters with limitations of size (Frazier,Evander) beat them.

I don't think Ali was that great and certainly NOT the "greatest" Period. He was however the greatest SALESMAN of all time. And he sold you!

People think a guy was great because he was in great fights.
2 average fighter build a legend because of great matches (gatti/ward)
then you see them against a "real" great fighter and they looklike sh1t!

If ALI was so great then so are Fraizer,Norton,Leon,etc....and guess what.....there not..
great for the sport, yes.
great exciting fights, yes
The greatest of all time........Not even close

IMO

---

frazier was great fighter but ali beat him 2-1 so whats your point ?? norton was very tricky guy who gave ali and alot of boxers trouble it was just big punches norton didnt fare against and still ali won 2-1 and im not even going to go into losses when he was 36 because you know he had head damage and was way past it so its not even worth arguing

He lost to Fraizer who Foreman DESTROYED TWICE!= and whats that got to go with anything that foreman was too big and too strong with fraizer and had his number and ?? all boxers have eachothers numbers thats how it works

Holmes won the WBC title at 29 and defended it 20 times!
He faced Micheal Spinks at age 36, was he Old then?
He had 26 fights AFTER that= and ?? if you watch holmes vs say shavers and against spinks he is shadow of his former self

ok so you pick alis record apart what about your hero valuev

john ruiz a guy that valuez got gift decision against lets have a look at ruiz record he was koed in 1 by david tua just about got sd against jimmy thunder going 1-1-1 with old holyfield losing to natrual middleweight not once oh no he lost twice but it was no contest and got saved getting gift decision against andrew golota and ruiz was dropped twice in that fight

valuez got another gift decision against old and shot larry donald

jeez i could gone of forever 8)

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OOHHH SSUURREEE!!! pick on poor little Valuev!! please refrain from criticizing Nicolai Valuev untill people start calling him "THE GREATEST" and expousing how his drool will heal the lame, and the shakes he has are due to some unknown unfortunate disease and not the fact that he was pounded into a "dope on a rope" by George Forman till Big George was so arm tired he couldn't stand up.