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If B Hop beats Wright.....
and maybe another few names,is he TOP 20 or even higher in the GREATEST FIGHTERS OF ALL TIME lists? I've seen a few prominent members here(Amat and well...Bilbo :P) have mentioned and I totally disagree. What does everyone else think?
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Re: If B Hop beats Wright.....
i think he will always stand behind jones as far as all time goes but he is up there mayb top 15
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Re: If B Hop beats Wright.....
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Originally Posted by the phenom
i think he will always stand behind jones as far as all time goes but he is up there mayb top 15
Agreed. Personally I have him somewhere in my top 6 middleweights of all time. A CONVINCING win over Wright would do wonders for his legacy IMO.
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Re: If B Hop beats Wright.....
Well done Gamo..it warranted a new thread
How anyone could think Hopkins ranks amongst the top 10/20 greatest fighters of all time is amazing :o
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Re: If B Hop beats Wright.....
If he beats Wright and goes on to beat Calzaghe, Maskaev or Taylor in a rematch I'd say his legacy would be greater than Roy Jones Jr when viewed back in 30 years or so time, assuming Jones doesn't achieve anything else of course.
Longevity is an important factor when analysing greatness and few boxers have had the longevity of Hopkins. If he beats Wright that will probably be 3 Hall of Famers who he will have defeated. His middleweight reign is I believe the second longest in boxing history, although Calzaghe is catching but Hopkins has fought much the better fighters.
Halger is an all time great and his major fights were all in the twighlight of his career. Since Hop lost his middleweight crown he seems to be more willing to take risks and make the big fights in order to secure his legacy.
I think beating Winky, on top of beating Tarver would put him at number 2 p4p given the closeness of his losses to Taylor. Barrera remained at number 2 p4p for most of 2005 and early 2006 despite being knocked out by Pacquaio and is still in the top 5 now after a couple of shaky defenses.
If Hop beats Winky he is a top 3 p4p star again no question and I'm sure the Ring magazine, who currently have him at number 5 will agree.
Hop is underratted. We always talk about Toney's toughness and how he's never been stopped in his entire career, well Hopkins is 42 and has likewise never been stopped. He's been more consistent that Toney having only ever been beaten by 3 men. When you consider that his 1st loss was on his pro debut that really means that a prime Hopkins was only ever beaten by one man, a prime Roy Jones.
But if Hopkins can prove to have greater longevity than Jones and equal his career achievements he finishes above him in my book.
I'm one of the few who sees a heavyweight title victory for Hopkins as a crucial part of securing his legacy forever. His two biggest lifetime rivals, Jones and Toney managed it, although Toney was stripped for steroid abuse. Hopkins wants to get that belt in order that he matches those guys.
It's a funny one for me, I find a lot of Hopkins' fights a bit dull but I absolutely love the man for his acheivements and boxing ability. I hope he beats Wright convincingly, then goes onto win a heavyweight crown.
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Re: If B Hop beats Wright.....
the thing is the real question is what happens if he loses does it do alot of damage
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Re: If B Hop beats Wright.....
He's top 20 for sure imo. He's the 3rd greatest middleweight of all time behind SRR and Hagler, and now he's facing a TOP fighter. Even at 170 lbs, Winky Wright is no worse then the 3rd best fighter in the world. Honestly I don't get how that is lost on people.
He's already reached the top 20 imo. Look at this.
From the period of 1993 to 2005, 12 years, he was undefeated. Wins over Glenn Johnson, Felix Trinidad, Antwun Echols, William Joppy, Oscar De La Hoya and Howard Eastman. Yet he's not a top 20 fighter? Very few fighters have taken on all comers and beat every one of them soundly. Then he goes up to 175 at 42 years old and beats THE champion yet he is still slighted as insignificant? B-Hop is the most under appreciated fighter of our time. Boring fighter? Yeah especially in recent years but who cares? Now he's going up against the number 2 fighter in the world yet if he wins it means nothing? That would be one of the biggest victories of this entire decade.
Top 10? That's a stretch but I think he sits very comfortably in the top 20. And I think somewhere in the top 15, if he wins even higher maybe. But he has to be considered when you put together a top 10.
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Re: If B Hop beats Wright.....
And Bilbo, I think even if Hopkins didn't win against Tarver he still is above Jones in term of legacy. I just think he is the more accomplished fighter...
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Re: If B Hop beats Wright.....
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Originally Posted by amat
And Bilbo, I think even if Hopkins didn't win against Tarver he still is above Jones in term of legacy. I just think he is the more accomplished fighter...
I don't know whose legacy I rate highest to be honest. Hopkins dominated a relatively weak middleweight division whilst Jones moved up and dominated two relatively minor divisions in super middle and light heavyweight.
Jones' biggest wins are against Hopkins, but before Hop was in his prime, a massively weight drained James Toney and a rather useless heavyweight champ.
Hopkins' biggest wins are against two Hall of famers in Oscar and Trinidad BUT they had to come up in weight to fight him, and Antonio Tarver who no matter what people thought about him was THE man at 175 lb.
You gotta say that Trinidad and Oscar for Hopkins is about equal to Hopkins and Toney for Jones.
Jones beat Hopkins so gains a point there but Hopkins beat both guys who sparked Jones out.
Jones won the heavyweight crown against a weak champ, whilst Hopkins won the light heavyweight crown against the strongest champ at that time.
I'd say they are about even in terms of legacy right now.
If Hopkins beats Wright, he edges ahead. If he followed that up with a win against a S*** heavyweight to win an alphabet belt I would say that makes him the greatest American fighter of his era, ahead of Jones and Toney.
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Re: If B Hop beats Wright.....
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Originally Posted by Bilbo
Jones' biggest wins are against Hopkins, but before Hop was in his prime, a massively weight drained James Toney and a rather useless heavyweight champ.
Hopkins' biggest wins are against two Hall of famers in Oscar and Trinidad BUT they had to come up in weight to fight him, and Antonio Tarver who no matter what people thought about him was THE man at 175 lb.
You gotta say that Trinidad and Oscar for Hopkins is about equal to Hopkins and Toney for Jones.
Jones beat Hopkins so gains a point there but Hopkins beat both guys who sparked Jones out.
Jones won the heavyweight crown against a weak champ, whilst Hopkins won the light heavyweight crown against the strongest champ at that time.
I'd say they are about even in terms of legacy right now.
If Hopkins beats Wright, he edges ahead. If he followed that up with a win against a S*** heavyweight to win an alphabet belt I would say that makes him the greatest American fighter of his era, ahead of Jones and Toney.
Its unfair to downplay RJJ's big wins like that. I understand Ruiz won't go down in history as the greatest or most popular HW champ of all time, but to say he is useless is unfair and innaccurate as I believe he was a decent fighter who beat guys like Holyfield, Golota, Rahman, Oquendo, ect and SHOULD hold a win over Valuev. So for Roy to move up and dominate him like that, thats a big victory IMO.
Also I think its unfair that you point out that Hopkins wasn't yet at his "prime" when he fought RJJ (which IMO is not really a good excuse, seeing as how they both turned pro around the same time period) but then you say something like "Hopkins beat both guys who sparked Jones out" and fail to mention that Roy was out of his prime when he got sparked by those guys.
Don't get me wrong, I think the legacies of Hopkins and Jones are just about even, or at least very close...
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Re: If B Hop beats Wright.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanflicker
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Jones' biggest wins are against Hopkins, but before Hop was in his prime, a massively weight drained James Toney and a rather useless heavyweight champ.
Hopkins' biggest wins are against two Hall of famers in Oscar and Trinidad BUT they had to come up in weight to fight him, and Antonio Tarver who no matter what people thought about him was THE man at 175 lb.
You gotta say that Trinidad and Oscar for Hopkins is about equal to Hopkins and Toney for Jones.
Jones beat Hopkins so gains a point there but Hopkins beat both guys who sparked Jones out.
Jones won the heavyweight crown against a weak champ, whilst Hopkins won the light heavyweight crown against the strongest champ at that time.
I'd say they are about even in terms of legacy right now.
If Hopkins beats Wright, he edges ahead. If he followed that up with a win against a S*** heavyweight to win an alphabet belt I would say that makes him the greatest American fighter of his era, ahead of Jones and Toney.
Its unfair to downplay RJJ's big wins like that. I understand Ruiz won't go down in history as the greatest or most popular HW champ of all time, but to say he is useless is unfair and innaccurate as I believe he was a decent fighter who beat guys like Holyfield, Golota, Rahman, Oquendo, ect and SHOULD hold a win over Valuev. So for Roy to move up and dominate him like that, thats a big victory IMO.
Also I think its unfair that you point out that Hopkins wasn't yet at his "prime" when he fought RJJ (which IMO is not really a good excuse, seeing as how they both turned pro around the same time period) but then you say something like "Hopkins beat both guys who sparked Jones out" and fail to mention that Roy was out of his prime when he got sparked by those guys.
Don't get me wrong, I think the legacies of Hopkins and Jones are just about even, or at least very close...
People point out Hopkins not yet reaching his prime because it's true, just as it's true that Roy Jones was past his prime when he got blasted by both Tarver and Johnson. Just because two fighters turn pro at the same time does not mean they reach their peaks at the same time. Every athlete is different.
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Re: If B Hop beats Wright.....
If he beats wright, and either Calzaghe or Jones or a heavyweight champion he goes down as one of the very vest IMO maybe even top 20. He's already HOF IMO.
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Re: If B Hop beats Wright.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanflicker
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Jones' biggest wins are against Hopkins, but before Hop was in his prime, a massively weight drained James Toney and a rather useless heavyweight champ.
Hopkins' biggest wins are against two Hall of famers in Oscar and Trinidad BUT they had to come up in weight to fight him, and Antonio Tarver who no matter what people thought about him was THE man at 175 lb.
You gotta say that Trinidad and Oscar for Hopkins is about equal to Hopkins and Toney for Jones.
Jones beat Hopkins so gains a point there but Hopkins beat both guys who sparked Jones out.
Jones won the heavyweight crown against a weak champ, whilst Hopkins won the light heavyweight crown against the strongest champ at that time.
I'd say they are about even in terms of legacy right now.
If Hopkins beats Wright, he edges ahead. If he followed that up with a win against a S*** heavyweight to win an alphabet belt I would say that makes him the greatest American fighter of his era, ahead of Jones and Toney.
Its unfair to downplay RJJ's big wins like that. I understand Ruiz won't go down in history as the greatest or most popular HW champ of all time, but to say he is useless is unfair and innaccurate as I believe he was a decent fighter who beat guys like Holyfield, Golota, Rahman, Oquendo, ect and SHOULD hold a win over Valuev. So for Roy to move up and dominate him like that, thats a big victory IMO.
Also I think its unfair that you point out that Hopkins wasn't yet at his "prime" when he fought RJJ (which IMO is not really a good excuse, seeing as how they both turned pro around the same time period) but then you say something like "Hopkins beat both guys who sparked Jones out" and fail to mention that Roy was out of his prime when he got sparked by those guys.
Don't get me wrong, I think the legacies of Hopkins and Jones are just about even, or at least very close...
I didn't downplay Jones I highlighted the aspects that possibly take away from his wins and I did the same for Hopkins, saying that his wins over De La Hoya and Trinidad were against fighters moving up in weight.
I also said that Hopkins peaked later and said his beating of Tarver and Johnson cancelled out Jones beating of him back in 1993.
I said that currently their legacies are about equal so we are actually in agreement buddy. :)
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Re: If B Hop beats Wright.....
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Originally Posted by yoitsdan
If he beats wright, and either Calzaghe or Jones or a heavyweight champion he goes down as one of the very vest IMO maybe even top 20. He's already HOF IMO.
Yeah definately HOF already no doubt about it. If he beats them like you say he should be top 20.
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Re: If B Hop beats Wright.....
If B-Hop beats Wright, Wright should FARKING retire! Sorry to break the news AGAIN, BUT B-Hop is PAST it. RJJ is PAST it. They were and are legends of this sport, BUT, get over it, they are old men now! Wright had trouble with Soliman, Taylor wouldnt fight him, what happened to Sammy the other day????? Enough said....I think everyone is catching my drift!?! :o ;)
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Re: If B Hop beats Wright.....
Trouble with Soliman ::** He beat him and won by 4 rounds. Trouble? Soliman landed something like 110 out of 1200 punches while Wright landed like 350 of 600. Trouble? It was a stay busy fight in which he won comfortably.
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Re: If B Hop beats Wright.....
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Originally Posted by amat
Trouble with Soliman ::** He beat him and won by 4 rounds. Trouble? Soliman landed something like 110 out of 600 punches while Wright landed like 200 of 350. Trouble? It was a stay busy fight in which he won comfortably.
HOW BOUT WRIGHT VS MUNDINE NOW! Wright didnt seem as comfy as Mundine against Sammy?!? ::** ;)
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Re: If B Hop beats Wright.....
I think Wright will win against Hopkins, but I think it will be an ugly fight! I think it will be extremely close as all the rounds will probably be hard to score. I think Wrights jab maybe the slight edge in the fight as both guys are technically great.
If Wright win I'd like to see Calzaghe step up & face him at LH for the championship, or even for Taylor to do the same so we can finally get that rematch!
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Re: If B Hop beats Wright.....
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Originally Posted by galaxy76
I think Wright will win against Hopkins, but I think it will be an ugly fight! I think it will be extremely close as all the rounds will probably be hard to score. I think Wrights jab maybe the slight edge in the fight as both guys are technically great.
If Wright win I'd like to see Calzaghe step up & face him at LH for the championship, or even for Taylor to do the same so we can finally get that rematch!
the fight could go that way but i feel hopkins has the right style to catch wright on his come in when he opens up remember the loopin right hokins throw
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Re: If B Hop beats Wright.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by amat
He's top 20 for sure imo. He's the 3rd greatest middleweight of all time behind SRR and Hagler, and now he's facing a TOP fighter. Even at 170 lbs, Winky Wright is no worse then the 3rd best fighter in the world. Honestly I don't get how that is lost on people.
He's already reached the top 20 imo. Look at this.
From the period of 1993 to 2005, 12 years, he was undefeated. Wins over Glenn Johnson, Felix Trinidad, Antwun Echols, William Joppy, Oscar De La Hoya and Howard Eastman. Yet he's not a top 20 fighter? Very few fighters have taken on all comers and beat every one of them soundly. Then he goes up to 175 at 42 years old and beats THE champion yet he is still slighted as insignificant? B-Hop is the most under appreciated fighter of our time. Boring fighter? Yeah especially in recent years but who cares? Now he's going up against the number 2 fighter in the world yet if he wins it means nothing? That would be one of the biggest victories of this entire decade.
Top 10? That's a stretch but I think he sits very comfortably in the top 20. And I think somewhere in the top 15, if he wins even higher maybe. But he has to be considered when you put together a top 10.
C'mon man, the names just highlight how weak his resume is in comparison with other "greats".
He faced three "stars" - Roy, Oscar and Tito. Roy BEAT him on the bridle. Oscar and Trinidad were out of their depth Welterweights.
The rest of the names are VERY GOOD wins but Johnson, Echols (twice), Joppy and Eastman are outstanding names? Don't think so. And in amongst the GOOD fighters you have the likes of Robert Allen THREE times, Morrade Hakker, Carl Daniels.
Jermain Taylor was his first serious test in years. Young, ambitious and an equal physical foe. Hopkins gets BEATEN twice. (spare me the cries of robbery ;))
His win over Tarver was excellent. But it was also brilliant matchmaking. Tarver was not only coming off a lacklustre performance against ancient-Roy but had blown up in weight, at 37 years old, to fanny about making movies in Hollywood.
Hopkins is a "great" middleweight. But he reigned in a weak division and was a very shrewd fight picker.
No-way is he top 10/20 GREATEST EVER ;)
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Re: If B Hop beats Wright.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by amat
He's top 20 for sure imo. He's the 3rd greatest middleweight of all time behind SRR and Hagler, and now he's facing a TOP fighter. Even at 170 lbs, Winky Wright is no worse then the 3rd best fighter in the world. Honestly I don't get how that is lost on people.
He's already reached the top 20 imo. Look at this.
From the period of 1993 to 2005, 12 years, he was undefeated. Wins over Glenn Johnson, Felix Trinidad, Antwun Echols, William Joppy, Oscar De La Hoya and Howard Eastman. Yet he's not a top 20 fighter? Very few fighters have taken on all comers and beat every one of them soundly. Then he goes up to 175 at 42 years old and beats THE champion yet he is still slighted as insignificant? B-Hop is the most under appreciated fighter of our time. Boring fighter? Yeah especially in recent years but who cares? Now he's going up against the number 2 fighter in the world yet if he wins it means nothing? That would be one of the biggest victories of this entire decade.
Top 10? That's a stretch but I think he sits very comfortably in the top 20. And I think somewhere in the top 15, if he wins even higher maybe. But he has to be considered when you put together a top 10.
C'mon man, the names just highlight how weak his resume is in comparison with other "greats".
He faced three "stars" - Roy, Oscar and Tito. Roy BEAT him on the bridle. Oscar and Trinidad were out of their depth Welterweights.
The rest of the names are VERY GOOD wins but Johnson, Echols (twice), Joppy and Eastman are outstanding names? Don't think so. And in amongst the GOOD fighters you have the likes of Robert Allen THREE times, Morrade Hakker, Carl Daniels.
Jermain Taylor was his first serious test in years. Young, ambitious and an equal physical foe. Hopkins gets BEATEN twice. (spare me the cries of robbery ;))
His win over Tarver was excellent. But it was also brilliant matchmaking. Tarver was not only coming off a lacklustre performance against ancient-Roy but had blown up in weight, at 37 years old, to fanny about making movies in Hollywood.
Hopkins is a "great" middleweight. But he reigned in a weak division and was a very shrewd fight picker.
No-way is he top 10/20 GREATEST EVER ;)
CC AGAIN FEN,you broke that shat down beautifully. I like B Hop alot but to call him one of20 greatest fighters that has ever lived,based on that resume,absolutely no way whatsoever. We can't even say he was the greatest middleweight ever either,and although it was not entirely his fault that his era was poor,his shrewd match making has not helped and it's a fact that in his first challenge in a long long time,from JT,someone physical,young,hungry and at his natural weight,B Hop lost twice(regardless of what we think,the record books back this up). A great fighter but no way in the top 20 that ever lived.
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Re: If B Hop beats Wright.....
Hop is definately in the top five in his class. I cannot spare the cries of robbery because if I do that It's like I'm saying boxing isn't crooked. I agree his best challenge in years was Taylor but in my opinion, he handled Taylor well. Just because his middle weight supremacy was'nt in the best division doesn't mean it was weak. I think Hopkins will beat Wright by decision.
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Re: If B Hop beats Wright.....
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Originally Posted by El Gamo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by amat
He's top 20 for sure imo. He's the 3rd greatest middleweight of all time behind SRR and Hagler, and now he's facing a TOP fighter. Even at 170 lbs, Winky Wright is no worse then the 3rd best fighter in the world. Honestly I don't get how that is lost on people.
He's already reached the top 20 imo. Look at this.
From the period of 1993 to 2005, 12 years, he was undefeated. Wins over Glenn Johnson, Felix Trinidad, Antwun Echols, William Joppy, Oscar De La Hoya and Howard Eastman. Yet he's not a top 20 fighter? Very few fighters have taken on all comers and beat every one of them soundly. Then he goes up to 175 at 42 years old and beats THE champion yet he is still slighted as insignificant? B-Hop is the most under appreciated fighter of our time. Boring fighter? Yeah especially in recent years but who cares? Now he's going up against the number 2 fighter in the world yet if he wins it means nothing? That would be one of the biggest victories of this entire decade.
Top 10? That's a stretch but I think he sits very comfortably in the top 20. And I think somewhere in the top 15, if he wins even higher maybe. But he has to be considered when you put together a top 10.
C'mon man, the names just highlight how weak his resume is in comparison with other "greats".
He faced three "stars" - Roy, Oscar and Tito. Roy BEAT him on the bridle. Oscar and Trinidad were out of their depth Welterweights.
The rest of the names are VERY GOOD wins but Johnson, Echols (twice), Joppy and Eastman are outstanding names? Don't think so. And in amongst the GOOD fighters you have the likes of Robert Allen THREE times, Morrade Hakker, Carl Daniels.
Jermain Taylor was his first serious test in years. Young, ambitious and an equal physical foe. Hopkins gets BEATEN twice. (spare me the cries of robbery ;))
His win over Tarver was excellent. But it was also brilliant matchmaking. Tarver was not only coming off a lacklustre performance against ancient-Roy but had blown up in weight, at 37 years old, to fanny about making movies in Hollywood.
Hopkins is a "great" middleweight. But he reigned in a weak division and was a very shrewd fight picker.
No-way is he top 10/20 GREATEST EVER ;)
CC AGAIN FEN,you broke that shat down beautifully. I like B Hop alot but to call him one of20 greatest fighters that has ever lived,based on that resume,absolutely no way whatsoever. We can't even say he was the greatest middleweight ever either,and although it was not entirely his fault that his era was poor,his shrewd match making has not helped and it's a fact that in his first challenge in a long long time,from JT,someone physical,young,hungry and at his natural weight,B Hop lost twice(regardless of what we think,the record books back this up). A great fighter but no way in the top 20 that ever lived.
One thing I've always had a question of, is when people speak of the top 20 fighters that ever lived, are heavyweights included? I only ask because people often do a top 10 heavyweights of all time, and so I'm not sure if the top 20 fighters of all time is non heavyweights, or all fighters in general including heavyweights. If it's including heavyweights, I agree, Hopkins is not top 20, but if it's excluding heavyweights, I think he could be on the cusp of being in that last spot. For one thing, whenever this argument comes up, none of us even care to say who the people taking up the top 20 spots are that are keeping Hopkins, or any fighter out. And personally, I think (if we're talking non-heavyweights, there's only like 9 or 10 fighters who are gonna be unanimous on everyone's top 20 list. Those would be Robinson, Pep, Armstrong, Hagler, Hearns, Leonard, Duran, Sal Sanchez, and Whitaker. These are guys who there is no arguing that they don't belong in the top 20 of all time. So if heavyweights aren't included, it's very reasonable to assume Hopkins deserves a spot.
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Re: If B Hop beats Wright.....
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Originally Posted by skyler
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Gamo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by amat
He's top 20 for sure imo. He's the 3rd greatest middleweight of all time behind SRR and Hagler, and now he's facing a TOP fighter. Even at 170 lbs, Winky Wright is no worse then the 3rd best fighter in the world. Honestly I don't get how that is lost on people.
He's already reached the top 20 imo. Look at this.
From the period of 1993 to 2005, 12 years, he was undefeated. Wins over Glenn Johnson, Felix Trinidad, Antwun Echols, William Joppy, Oscar De La Hoya and Howard Eastman. Yet he's not a top 20 fighter? Very few fighters have taken on all comers and beat every one of them soundly. Then he goes up to 175 at 42 years old and beats THE champion yet he is still slighted as insignificant? B-Hop is the most under appreciated fighter of our time. Boring fighter? Yeah especially in recent years but who cares? Now he's going up against the number 2 fighter in the world yet if he wins it means nothing? That would be one of the biggest victories of this entire decade.
Top 10? That's a stretch but I think he sits very comfortably in the top 20. And I think somewhere in the top 15, if he wins even higher maybe. But he has to be considered when you put together a top 10.
C'mon man, the names just highlight how weak his resume is in comparison with other "greats".
He faced three "stars" - Roy, Oscar and Tito. Roy BEAT him on the bridle. Oscar and Trinidad were out of their depth Welterweights.
The rest of the names are VERY GOOD wins but Johnson, Echols (twice), Joppy and Eastman are outstanding names? Don't think so. And in amongst the GOOD fighters you have the likes of Robert Allen THREE times, Morrade Hakker, Carl Daniels.
Jermain Taylor was his first serious test in years. Young, ambitious and an equal physical foe. Hopkins gets BEATEN twice. (spare me the cries of robbery ;))
His win over Tarver was excellent. But it was also brilliant matchmaking. Tarver was not only coming off a lacklustre performance against ancient-Roy but had blown up in weight, at 37 years old, to fanny about making movies in Hollywood.
Hopkins is a "great" middleweight. But he reigned in a weak division and was a very shrewd fight picker.
No-way is he top 10/20 GREATEST EVER ;)
CC AGAIN FEN,you broke that shat down beautifully. I like B Hop alot but to call him one of20 greatest fighters that has ever lived,based on that resume,absolutely no way whatsoever. We can't even say he was the greatest middleweight ever either,and although it was not entirely his fault that his era was poor,his shrewd match making has not helped and it's a fact that in his first challenge in a long long time,from JT,someone physical,young,hungry and at his natural weight,B Hop lost twice(regardless of what we think,the record books back this up). A great fighter but no way in the top 20 that ever lived.
One thing I've always had a question of, is when people speak of the top 20 fighters that ever lived, are heavyweights included? I only ask because people often do a top 10 heavyweights of all time, and so I'm not sure if the top 20 fighters of all time is non heavyweights, or all fighters in general including heavyweights. If it's including heavyweights, I agree, Hopkins is not top 20, but if it's excluding heavyweights, I think he could be on the cusp of being in that last spot. For one thing, whenever this argument comes up, none of us even care to say who the people taking up the top 20 spots are that are keeping Hopkins, or any fighter out. And personally, I think (if we're talking non-heavyweights, there's only like 9 or 10 fighters who are gonna be unanimous on everyone's top 20 list. Those would be Robinson, Pep, Armstrong, Hagler, Hearns, Leonard, Duran, Sal Sanchez, and Whitaker. These are guys who there is no arguing that they don't belong in the top 20 of all time. So if heavyweights aren't included, it's very reasonable to assume Hopkins deserves a spot.
I totally agree. One thing B-Hop gets sh!t on for is that his win over Trinidad was just a case of beating a smaller fighter. If Hopkins was a natural welterweight, he'd have beaten Felix at 147 just as well. He didn't win because he was bigger, he won because he was better. DLH clearly had no business at 160, but that's not how it was with Trinidad. And on his two losses to Taylor, on the positive side, number 1, Taylor is still undefeated (and if you don't want to hear about Hopkins-Taylor decision controversy, don't bring up Taylor-Wright decision controversy), so that being said, Taylor has proven himself to be elite, and although losing it bad, it's much better to lose to someone who is formidable than to someone who is not. Number 2, he rebounded from the losses by moving up 2 weight classes and beating Tarver, no matter how out of shape Tarver may have been, we saw by that fight as well that Hopkins was clearly better, and IMO would have beaten him had Tarver not gone up in down in weight for the movie as well. Most importantly as Skyler mentioned, out of the top 20 fighters, only 10 are certain (I'd add Archie Moore to your list to make it 10), and so by saying Hopkins is NO WAY deserving of top 20, you have to mention 10 other fighters who are clearly greater, and with getting those previous 10 greats out the way, it's actually trickier than you might think. This is if heavyweights are not part of the list.
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Re: If B Hop beats Wright.....
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Originally Posted by Samson3000
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyler
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Gamo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by amat
He's top 20 for sure imo. He's the 3rd greatest middleweight of all time behind SRR and Hagler, and now he's facing a TOP fighter. Even at 170 lbs, Winky Wright is no worse then the 3rd best fighter in the world. Honestly I don't get how that is lost on people.
He's already reached the top 20 imo. Look at this.
From the period of 1993 to 2005, 12 years, he was undefeated. Wins over Glenn Johnson, Felix Trinidad, Antwun Echols, William Joppy, Oscar De La Hoya and Howard Eastman. Yet he's not a top 20 fighter? Very few fighters have taken on all comers and beat every one of them soundly. Then he goes up to 175 at 42 years old and beats THE champion yet he is still slighted as insignificant? B-Hop is the most under appreciated fighter of our time. Boring fighter? Yeah especially in recent years but who cares? Now he's going up against the number 2 fighter in the world yet if he wins it means nothing? That would be one of the biggest victories of this entire decade.
Top 10? That's a stretch but I think he sits very comfortably in the top 20. And I think somewhere in the top 15, if he wins even higher maybe. But he has to be considered when you put together a top 10.
C'mon man, the names just highlight how weak his resume is in comparison with other "greats".
He faced three "stars" - Roy, Oscar and Tito. Roy BEAT him on the bridle. Oscar and Trinidad were out of their depth Welterweights.
The rest of the names are VERY GOOD wins but Johnson, Echols (twice), Joppy and Eastman are outstanding names? Don't think so. And in amongst the GOOD fighters you have the likes of Robert Allen THREE times, Morrade Hakker, Carl Daniels.
Jermain Taylor was his first serious test in years. Young, ambitious and an equal physical foe. Hopkins gets BEATEN twice. (spare me the cries of robbery ;))
His win over Tarver was excellent. But it was also brilliant matchmaking. Tarver was not only coming off a lacklustre performance against ancient-Roy but had blown up in weight, at 37 years old, to fanny about making movies in Hollywood.
Hopkins is a "great" middleweight. But he reigned in a weak division and was a very shrewd fight picker.
No-way is he top 10/20 GREATEST EVER ;)
CC AGAIN FEN,you broke that shat down beautifully. I like B Hop alot but to call him one of20 greatest fighters that has ever lived,based on that resume,absolutely no way whatsoever. We can't even say he was the greatest middleweight ever either,and although it was not entirely his fault that his era was poor,his shrewd match making has not helped and it's a fact that in his first challenge in a long long time,from JT,someone physical,young,hungry and at his natural weight,B Hop lost twice(regardless of what we think,the record books back this up). A great fighter but no way in the top 20 that ever lived.
One thing I've always had a question of, is when people speak of the top 20 fighters that ever lived, are heavyweights included? I only ask because people often do a top 10 heavyweights of all time, and so I'm not sure if the top 20 fighters of all time is non heavyweights, or all fighters in general including heavyweights. If it's including heavyweights, I agree, Hopkins is not top 20, but if it's excluding heavyweights, I think he could be on the cusp of being in that last spot. For one thing, whenever this argument comes up, none of us even care to say who the people taking up the top 20 spots are that are keeping Hopkins, or any fighter out. And personally, I think (if we're talking non-heavyweights, there's only like 9 or 10 fighters who are gonna be unanimous on everyone's top 20 list. Those would be Robinson, Pep, Armstrong, Hagler, Hearns, Leonard, Duran, Sal Sanchez, and Whitaker. These are guys who there is no arguing that they don't belong in the top 20 of all time. So if heavyweights aren't included, it's very reasonable to assume Hopkins deserves a spot.
I totally agree. One thing B-Hop gets sh!t on for is that his win over Trinidad was just a case of beating a smaller fighter. If Hopkins was a natural welterweight, he'd have beaten Felix at 147 just as well. He didn't win because he was bigger, he won because he was better. DLH clearly had no business at 160, but that's not how it was with Trinidad. And on his two losses to Taylor, on the positive side, number 1, Taylor is still undefeated (and if you don't want to hear about Hopkins-Taylor decision controversy, don't bring up Taylor-Wright decision controversy), so that being said, Taylor has proven himself to be elite, and although losing it bad, it's much better to lose to someone who is formidable than to someone who is not. Number 2, he rebounded from the losses by moving up 2 weight classes and beating Tarver, no matter how out of shape Tarver may have been, we saw by that fight as well that Hopkins was clearly better, and IMO would have beaten him had Tarver not gone up in down in weight for the movie as well. Most importantly as Skyler mentioned, out of the top 20 fighters, only 10 are certain (I'd add Archie Moore to your list to make it 10), and so by saying Hopkins is NO WAY deserving of top 20, you have to mention 10 other fighters who are clearly greater, and with getting those previous 10 greats out the way, it's actually trickier than you might think. This is if heavyweights are not part of the list.
I also was under the impression that top 20 fighters of all time was non heavyweights, as I thought the heavyweights had their own list among themselves. I also agree with you guys top 10. As for the remaining 10, I'll just throw out a list of names off the top of my head(in no particular order, and more than 10) and see if we can decide who is worthy:
Bernard Hopkins
Roy Jones
Aaron Pryor
Carlos Monzon
Julio Caesar Chavez
Azumah Nelson
Ricardo Lopez
Oscar de la Hoya
Floyd Mayweather
Felix Trinidad
Michael Spinks
Rocky Graziano
Stanley Ketchel
Marco Antonio Barerra
Shane Mosley
Alexis Arguello
Julian Jackson
Chris Eubanks
Manny Pacquiou
Out of these listed(or any I may have forgotten) can it be said that 10 of them CLEARLY deserve to be ranked ahead of Hopkins?
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Re: If B Hop beats Wright.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudy Zarzoff
If B-Hop beats Wright, Wright should FARKING retire! Sorry to break the news AGAIN, BUT B-Hop is PAST it. RJJ is PAST it. They were and are legends of this sport, BUT, get over it, they are old men now! Wright had trouble with Soliman, Taylor wouldnt fight him, what happened to Sammy the other day????? Enough said....I think everyone is catching my drift!?! :o ;)
Your drift is washing out to sea on a wave of misinformation.
Wright had no trouble with Soliman.
Soliman threw over 1200 punches & landed 17% of those 1200.
Before you speak...know WTF you are talking about...because clearly...you don't.
