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Rafael Marquez closing in on the 'top 3'?
After watching the Marquez vs Vazquez fight i think Rafa is very close to if not in the top 3 p4p right now! that was one hell of a fight and can't wait for the rematch, but Marquez was awsome and showed what a complete boxer he is.
Its hard to place him right now what with barrera and his brother going at it this weekend, im sure the outcome of that will warrent some changes in the list, but Rafael Marquezwas out standing in that fight! he did go down once but took some big lefts from Isreal and kept going - its always more impressive when you beat a fello p4p'er, but stopping one is even more so!
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Re: Rafael Marquez closing in on the 'top 3'?
Number 3? Your fucking crazy. No way Rafael is number 3. I got him right were he belongs. Right behind Floyd Mayweather at number 2.
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Re: Rafael Marquez closing in on the 'top 3'?
close to or IN the top 3 - i didn't say which one exactly:p
The file i had to download to watch wasn't to great, broke up a bit and wasn't always to easy to see what was landing and what wasn't, the sound was like 2 seconds after so im hearing these blow go in but no on1 was throwing at the time:p
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Re: Rafael Marquez closing in on the 'top 3'?
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Originally Posted by Violent Demise
Number 3? Your F****** crazy. No way Rafael is number 3. I got him right were he belongs. Right behind Floyd Mayweather at number 2.
where have u got isreal? still got him in the top 10 even after he lost?
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Re: Rafael Marquez closing in on the 'top 3'?
Well, I have him at #4.... I just can't see him past those 3 YET!!
Surely if Marquez can follow this win up with something good he jumps to #3
as I don't think a PAC win over Solis does much for him in terms of P4P......
PBF
Winky
PAC
R.Marquez
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Re: Rafael Marquez closing in on the 'top 3'?
I don't think he's nunber 3 yet. Vazquez wasn't a p4p fighter imo. I predicted before the fight it would be very one sided and apart from the flash knockdown in the third it was.
I'd still put Floyd, Pacquiao, Winky, Barrera, Hopkins, Taylor and maybe Calzaghe ahead of him, I mean come on people Vazaquez isn't any better than a Lacy or a Tarver, although I can imagine El Gamo will be frantically writing to point out the foolishness of my views ;)
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Re: Rafael Marquez closing in on the 'top 3'?
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Originally Posted by Bilbo
I don't think he's nunber 3 yet. Vazquez wasn't a p4p fighter imo. I predicted before the fight it would be very one sided and apart from the flash knockdown in the third it was.
I'd still put Floyd, Pacquiao, Winky, Barrera, Hopkins, Taylor and maybe Calzaghe ahead of him, I mean come on people Vazaquez isn't any better than a Lacy or a Tarver, although I can imagine El Gamo will be frantically writing to point out the foolishness of my views ;)
Vazquez is more than a fighter who can knock out old past it ones, and can box well, he doesn't rely soly on his power so imo he is streets ahead of btoh tarver and lacy.
if rafa isn't top 3 yet he must be atleast 4 or 5? i think he is clearly in front of taylor, he can fight for every second of every round, has big power, great in his feet, picks his punches as good as anyone, he looked to be very very acurate in his last fight! I can understand your barrera point, why i said its hard to place him just yet untill we see this weekends fight, but from past fights yes IMo he is higher than barrera, i think if it was most other fighters who had done what barrera had in his last two outings he wudn't be that high, we al wanna give hi the benefit of the doubt coz of what hes done in the past i think and hope he has been saving him self for a test like this one...
i would rake rafa above both hopkin and calzaghe to in a hearbeat right now! hopkins is 1 from 3 with his win coming over a guy i really don't rate that much, calzaghe didn't show up to the bika fight and is fighting a contender.
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Re: Rafael Marquez closing in on the 'top 3'?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Preme
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
I don't think he's nunber 3 yet. Vazquez wasn't a p4p fighter imo. I predicted before the fight it would be very one sided and apart from the flash knockdown in the third it was.
I'd still put Floyd, Pacquiao, Winky, Barrera, Hopkins, Taylor and maybe Calzaghe ahead of him, I mean come on people Vazaquez isn't any better than a Lacy or a Tarver, although I can imagine El Gamo will be frantically writing to point out the foolishness of my views ;)
Vazquez is more than a fighter who can knock out old past it ones, and can box well, he doesn't rely soly on his power so imo he is streets ahead of btoh tarver and lacy.
if rafa isn't top 3 yet he must be atleast 4 or 5? i think he is clearly in front of taylor, he can fight for every second of every round, has big power, great in his feet, picks his punches as good as anyone, he looked to be very very acurate in his last fight! I can understand your barrera point, why i said its hard to place him just yet untill we see this weekends fight, but from past fights yes IMo he is higher than barrera, i think if it was most other fighters who had done what barrera had in his last two outings he wudn't be that high, we al wanna give hi the benefit of the doubt coz of what hes done in the past i think and hope he has been saving him self for a test like this one...
i would rake rafa above both hopkin and calzaghe to in a hearbeat right now! hopkins is 1 from 3 with his win coming over a guy i really don't rate that much, calzaghe didn't show up to the bika fight and is fighting a contender.
I agree that he is but I would also say that Tarver and Lacy are too.
Lacy and Tarver are now too examples of excellent boxers who are are now vastly underratted. Lacy is still one of the best super middles in the world and will show that once his shoulder has healed up and Tarver no matter how much people hate on him was once the man at 175 lb.
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Re: Rafael Marquez closing in on the 'top 3'?
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Originally Posted by Bilbo
I don't think he's nunber 3 yet. Vazquez wasn't a p4p fighter imo.
In almost EVERYONE'S list (excluding yours) he was at number 7 or 8.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
I predicted before the fight it would be very one sided and apart from the flash knockdown in the third it was.
The fight was NOT one sided or pretty one sided either, Marquez was just edging out the rounds and Vasquez is never out of a fight regardless how many rds. hes down.... Flash knockdown, are you serious? I was ringside it was everything BUT a flash knockdown that punch caught Marquez right on the jaw if it was a flash knockdown belive me Marquez would not have wobbled that way he did when he got up.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
I'd still put Floyd, Pacquiao, Winky, Barrera, Hopkins, Taylor and maybe Calzaghe ahead of him
PBF, Winky, Pac I agree. MAB I can see the arguement there.... BUT Hopkins, Taylor & Especially Joe hell no!!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
I mean come on people Vazaquez isn't any better than a Lacy or a Tarver
Yes he is and I'll tell you why he was able to reign and become the IBF, Ring and WBC Champ. in his div. @ Super Bantam.
He stoped Larios in 3, Pac didn't stop Larios he wen't all 12.....
He had a great bout with Jhonny (Who was another very close P4P at the time they met) where he was loosing and whom he also stopped......
Tarvers inactivity and his last loss IMO, drops him off the P4P list....
Lacy is on his way back up, I just don't see how you think Lacy & Vasquez match up. Lacy was the IBO champ. Vasquez was the Ring Champ. those belts are Worlds apart.....
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Re: Rafael Marquez closing in on the 'top 3'?
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Originally Posted by CutMeMicK
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
I don't think he's nunber 3 yet. Vazquez wasn't a p4p fighter imo.
In almost EVERYONE'S list (excluding yours) he was at number 7 or 8.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
I predicted before the fight it would be very one sided and apart from the flash knockdown in the third it was.
The fight was NOT one sided or pretty one sided either, Marquez was just edging out the rounds and Vasquez is never out of a fight regardless how many rds. hes down.... Flash knockdown, are you serious? I was ringside it was everything BUT a flash knockdown that punch caught Marquez right on the jaw if it was a flash knockdown belive me Marquez would not have wobbled that way he did when he got up.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
I'd still put Floyd, Pacquiao, Winky, Barrera, Hopkins, Taylor and maybe Calzaghe ahead of him
PBF, Winky, Pac I agree. MAB I can see the arguement there.... BUT Hopkins, Taylor & Especially Joe hell no!!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
I mean come on people Vazaquez isn't any better than a Lacy or a Tarver
Yes he is and I'll tell you why he was able to reign and become the IBF, Ring and WBC Champ. in his div. @ Super Bantam.
He stoped Larios in 3, Pac didn't stop Larios he wen't all 12.....
He had a great bout with Jhonny (Who was another very close P4P at the time they met) where he was loosing and whom he also stopped......
Tarvers inactivity and his last loss IMO, drops him off the P4P list....
Lacy is on his way back up, I just don't see how you think Lacy & Vasquez match up. Lacy was the IBO champ. Vasquez was the Ring Champ. those belts are Worlds apart.....
What top 10 p4p ranking lists are you referring to that Vazquez was in?
He was never in the Ring magazine's top 10 p4p.
He was never in Boxingtalks' top 10 p4p.
The ring magazine now rates Marquez as number 7 behind PBF, Pacquiao, Wright, Taylor, Hopkins and Barrera and one ahead of Calzaghe.
Thats the only rankings that count and I agree with them completely
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Re: Rafael Marquez closing in on the 'top 3'?
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Originally Posted by Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMicK
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
I don't think he's nunber 3 yet. Vazquez wasn't a p4p fighter imo.
In almost EVERYONE'S list (excluding yours) he was at number 7 or 8.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
I predicted before the fight it would be very one sided and apart from the flash knockdown in the third it was.
The fight was NOT one sided or pretty one sided either, Marquez was just edging out the rounds and Vasquez is never out of a fight regardless how many rds. hes down.... Flash knockdown, are you serious? I was ringside it was everything BUT a flash knockdown that punch caught Marquez right on the jaw if it was a flash knockdown belive me Marquez would not have wobbled that way he did when he got up.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
I'd still put Floyd, Pacquiao, Winky, Barrera, Hopkins, Taylor and maybe Calzaghe ahead of him
PBF, Winky, Pac I agree. MAB I can see the arguement there.... BUT Hopkins, Taylor & Especially Joe hell no!!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
I mean come on people Vazaquez isn't any better than a Lacy or a Tarver
Yes he is and I'll tell you why he was able to reign and become the IBF, Ring and WBC Champ. in his div. @ Super Bantam.
He stoped Larios in 3, Pac didn't stop Larios he wen't all 12.....
He had a great bout with Jhonny (Who was another very close P4P at the time they met) where he was loosing and whom he also stopped......
Tarvers inactivity and his last loss IMO, drops him off the P4P list....
Lacy is on his way back up, I just don't see how you think Lacy & Vasquez match up. Lacy was the IBO champ. Vasquez was the Ring Champ. those belts are Worlds apart.....
What top 10 p4p ranking lists are you referring to that Vazquez was in?
He was never in the Ring magazine's top 10 p4p.
He was never in Boxingtalks' top 10 p4p.
The ring magazine now rates Marquez as number 7 behind PBF, Pacquiao, Wright, Taylor, Hopkins and Barrera and one ahead of Calzaghe.
Thats the only rankings that count and I agree with them completely
My mistake, thought you were reffering to Marquez..... :P
You are right Vasquez was not top 10 P4P, but Marquez was 7 or 8 in some lists.....
After this win IMO, he leaps up to #3.
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Re: Rafael Marquez closing in on the 'top 3'?
Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMicK
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMicK
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
I don't think he's nunber 3 yet. Vazquez wasn't a p4p fighter imo.
In almost EVERYONE'S list (excluding yours) he was at number 7 or 8.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
I predicted before the fight it would be very one sided and apart from the flash knockdown in the third it was.
The fight was NOT one sided or pretty one sided either, Marquez was just edging out the rounds and Vasquez is never out of a fight regardless how many rds. hes down.... Flash knockdown, are you serious? I was ringside it was everything BUT a flash knockdown that punch caught Marquez right on the jaw if it was a flash knockdown belive me Marquez would not have wobbled that way he did when he got up.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
I'd still put Floyd, Pacquiao, Winky, Barrera, Hopkins, Taylor and maybe Calzaghe ahead of him
PBF, Winky, Pac I agree. MAB I can see the arguement there.... BUT Hopkins, Taylor & Especially Joe hell no!!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
I mean come on people Vazaquez isn't any better than a Lacy or a Tarver
Yes he is and I'll tell you why he was able to reign and become the IBF, Ring and WBC Champ. in his div. @ Super Bantam.
He stoped Larios in 3, Pac didn't stop Larios he wen't all 12.....
He had a great bout with Jhonny (Who was another very close P4P at the time they met) where he was loosing and whom he also stopped......
Tarvers inactivity and his last loss IMO, drops him off the P4P list....
Lacy is on his way back up, I just don't see how you think Lacy & Vasquez match up. Lacy was the IBO champ. Vasquez was the Ring Champ. those belts are Worlds apart.....
What top 10 p4p ranking lists are you referring to that Vazquez was in?
He was never in the Ring magazine's top 10 p4p.
He was never in Boxingtalks' top 10 p4p.
The ring magazine now rates Marquez as number 7 behind PBF, Pacquiao, Wright, Taylor, Hopkins and Barrera and one ahead of Calzaghe.
Thats the only rankings that count and I agree with them completely
My mistake, thought you were reffering to Marquez..... :P
You are right Vasquez was not top 10 P4P, but Marquez was 7 or 8 in some lists.....
After this win IMO, he leaps up to #3.
Ah no problem, yes I definitely think Marquez is p4p but not yet top 5 as I feel Floyd, Winky, Pacquiao, Barrera and Taylor have done more. I'm a big fan of Hopkins and will keep him at 6 until he loses or retires. I think the Ring rankings right now are spot on, Mosely has made an entrance at 10 as well which is about right.
The reason I don't think Marquez is top 3 is because prior to the Vazquez fight he was at best number 10 or 11 p4p probably about 12th. Again thats not me, thats the Ring and Boxingtalk the only official rankings that I ever follow.
Just by beating Vazquez he doesn't jump 8 or 9 places to be top 3 in my opinion. Beating Vazquez was no better than Hatton beating Tyszu and Hatton is barely in the top 10 right now.
It's an exciting time for both the Marquez brothers right now and both could continue to climb up the rankings, but lets not put them amongst the very elite 2 or 3 fighters in the world until they have earned it.
Mayweather is a 4 weight world champ, unbeaten and has been in the p4p for the past 5 or 6 years, the last 12 months as number 1, Winky has been sensational over the past few years beating Mosely twice, shutting out Trinidad and in many people's eyes beating Taylor last year. Pacquaio has knocked out Barerra once and Morales twice, he's a two weight world champ and is regarded as the man at super feather although he's still yet to win a title there.
R Marquez hasn't done enough to gatecrash that group in my opinion.
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Re: Rafael Marquez closing in on the 'top 3'?
Well basiically Bilbo, this arguement comes down to what you base p4p on. Stricly speaking by accomplishements, you have a very good point... Marquez can't yet match the achievements of Mayweather, Winky, Pac, or Hopkins. But, I still have him about top 3 after watching him beat Vasquez. It's hard to rank him above Pac or Winky, I understand that... But in terms of his ability, I feel he's right up there with them. Can't even remember where I had him beforehand(though he was in my top 10...) but moving up in weight to bneat Vasquez like that is extremely impressive. Especially since he fights at a low weight division, which not only does not receive the same attention and therefore mega fights as higher div's, in addition, it is much more difficult to successfully move up divisions, the smaller you are. Basically I would like to rate Hopkins, or Winky definetivly above Marquez, but at this stage in their careers, Im just not sure they are p4p better than he is, accomplishements aside. Guess Im really somewhat on the fence with this one... But R Marquez has all the goods, and I think you were doing Vasquez a huge injustice by saying he was no better than Lacy or Tarver... In fact, I wonder if you've ever seen him fight after hearing this ???
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Re: Rafael Marquez closing in on the 'top 3'?
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Originally Posted by p4pking
Well basiically Bilbo, this arguement comes down to what you base p4p on. Stricly speaking by accomplishements, you have a very good point... Marquez can't yet match the achievements of Mayweather, Winky, Pac, or Hopkins. But, I still have him about top 3 after watching him beat Vasquez. It's hard to rank him above Pac or Winky, I understand that... But in terms of his ability, I feel he's right up there with them. Can't even remember where I had him beforehand(though he was in my top 10...) but moving up in weight to bneat Vasquez like that is extremely impressive. Especially since he fights at a low weight division, which not only does not receive the same attention and therefore mega fights as higher div's, in addition, it is much more difficult to successfully move up divisions, the smaller you are. Basically I would like to rate Hopkins, or Winky definetivly above Marquez, but at this stage in their careers, Im just not sure they are p4p better than he is, accomplishements aside. Guess Im really somewhat on the fence with this one... But R Marquez has all the goods, and I think you were doing Vasquez a huge injustice by saying he was no better than Lacy or Tarver... In fact, I wonder if you've ever seen him fight after hearing this ???
I do rate Vazquez, I just happen to think that Lacy and Tarver are both a lot better than people credit them too! Lacy was exposed against Calzaghe but no more than Vazquez was being against Ghonzalez. The only difference is that Ghonzalez was no Calzaghe!
If Hopkins and Vazquez could both fight at the same weight (in a hypothetical p4p matchup) I put it to you that Hopkins would beat Vazquez as easily as he did Tarver, or Trinidad. Can you really disagree with this? Thats why I rate Hopkins higher than Marquez.
Vazquez is one of those fighters in the same class as Coralles. A great exciting puncher, terrific to watch with defensive vulnurabilities and who is always going to lose to a great boxer, as long as the boxer can take his shots. That's why I knew Marquez would dominate. I know some say it was a close fight, but I didn't really see that. It was a hard fight but it was always going to be Marquez that one right from the first bell. He even won the whole rest of the third round apart from being knocked down.
Now Marquez I agree is something special but he's now at the stage Mayweather was 4 or 5 years ago, or Paquaio a couple of years, loads of potential, flashy, exciting and looks like he's got the goods. But he has to actually produce before he's earned his spot in the top 3.
I mean look at Cotto. Surely this guy has every bit the talent and potential that Marquez has? But he's yet to really get into the top 10 p4p at all. If he beats Judah, who is on a par with Vazquez it won't leap him to number 3, and remember Cotto has just moved up, same as Marquez.
I really like Marquez, and really rate him, it's just that to be in the top 5 p4p in my opinion you need to be there on acomplishments and not potential.
He hasn't achieved enough to be top 5 p4p yet, although certainly he does have the potential to get there.
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Re: Rafael Marquez closing in on the 'top 3'?
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Originally Posted by Preme
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Originally Posted by Violent Demise
Number 3? Your F****** crazy. No way Rafael is number 3. I got him right were he belongs. Right behind Floyd Mayweather at number 2.
where have u got isreal? still got him in the top 10 even after he lost?
I had Vazquez at number 11 before the fight. Just outside the top 10. He's obviously dropped down.
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Re: Rafael Marquez closing in on the 'top 3'?
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Originally Posted by p4pking
Especially since he fights at a low weight division, which not only does not receive the same attention and therefore mega fights as higher div's, in addition, it is much more difficult to successfully move up divisions, the smaller you are.
I would dispute that. The weight differences between the lower weights remains the same as a percentage of body weight, for example there is a 7lb jump between light welter to full welter but only 5 lbs from lightweight to light welter.
With the lower weights the actual lb difference is even less about 2 or 3 lbs for the lowest weights so the percentage as a bodyweight remains the same.
Pacqiao started out at 106 lbs and has climbed 6 divisions, Morales has climbed 5, Barrera 5, Guzman 3 etc.
Marquez climbing one division in his entire career is actually no more impressive than Cotto, Hatton, Judah, Spinks and a host of others in fact I'd say it was a minimum requirement for any smaller fighter to fufill in order to even be considered for the top 10 p4p.
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Re: Rafael Marquez closing in on the 'top 3'?
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Originally Posted by Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by p4pking
Especially since he fights at a low weight division, which not only does not receive the same attention and therefore mega fights as higher div's, in addition, it is much more difficult to successfully move up divisions, the smaller you are.
I would dispute that. The weight differences between the lower weights remains the same as a percentage of body weight, for example there is a 7lb jump between light welter to full welter but only 5 lbs from lightweight to light welter.
With the lower weights the actual lb difference is even less about 2 or 3 lbs for the lowest weights so the percentage as a bodyweight remains the same.
Pacqiao started out at 106 lbs and has climbed 6 divisions, Morales has climbed 5, Barrera 5, Guzman 3 etc.
Marquez climbing one division in his entire career is actually no more impressive than Cotto, Hatton, Judah, Spinks and a host of others in fact I'd say it was a minimum requirement for any smaller fighter to fufill in order to even be considered for the top 10 p4p.
Ever heard of Wilfredo Gomez? 4 lbs was enough to turn him from an amazing p4p fighter to someone who couldn't beat the elite. Either way, it is more difficult imo. Pac, or Morales, moved up weight divisions because they turned pro extremely young, and had to move up because their bodies were still growing. When did Pac fight at 106?? 17 years old? And Guzman isn't exactly a great example to use. He had great KO power at featherweight, yet 4 lbs higher, he doesn't, whatsoever... And look at the examples you use to compare Marquez move up. Hatton???? He moved up 7 lbs and (imo), lost, to a fighter who was not elite. Cotto, yeah he moved up, but it was more due to him not being able to make 140 anymore(like Morales or Pac)... And he still hasn't beat a good welterweight..Judah? meh... Spinks size really wasn't a big issue he had 0 power and it was more that he matched up well with Zab. Spinks, only moved up 1 div but like Cotto, hasn't fought any real elite fighter at the weight... Karmazin also rocked him bad a couple times. Just don't see the examples you do to suggest moving up isn't more difficult the lower weight you fight at.. Even if you want to go by percentage.
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Re: Rafael Marquez closing in on the 'top 3'?
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Originally Posted by p4pking
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by p4pking
Especially since he fights at a low weight division, which not only does not receive the same attention and therefore mega fights as higher div's, in addition, it is much more difficult to successfully move up divisions, the smaller you are.
I would dispute that. The weight differences between the lower weights remains the same as a percentage of body weight, for example there is a 7lb jump between light welter to full welter but only 5 lbs from lightweight to light welter.
With the lower weights the actual lb difference is even less about 2 or 3 lbs for the lowest weights so the percentage as a bodyweight remains the same.
Pacqiao started out at 106 lbs and has climbed 6 divisions, Morales has climbed 5, Barrera 5, Guzman 3 etc.
Marquez climbing one division in his entire career is actually no more impressive than Cotto, Hatton, Judah, Spinks and a host of others in fact I'd say it was a minimum requirement for any smaller fighter to fufill in order to even be considered for the top 10 p4p.
Ever heard of Wilfredo Gomez? 4 lbs was enough to turn him from an amazing p4p fighter to someone who couldn't beat the elite. Either way, it is more difficult imo. Pac, or Morales, moved up weight divisions because they turned pro extremely young, and had to move up because their bodies were still growing. When did Pac fight at 106?? 17 years old? And Guzman isn't exactly a great example to use. He had great KO power at featherweight, yet 4 lbs higher, he doesn't, whatsoever... And look at the examples you use to compare Marquez move up. Hatton???? He moved up 7 lbs and (imo), lost, to a fighter who was not elite. Cotto, yeah he moved up, but it was more due to him not being able to make 140 anymore(like Morales or Pac)... And he still hasn't beat a good welterweight..Judah? meh... Spinks size really wasn't a big issue he had 0 power and it was more that he matched up well with Zab. Spinks, only moved up 1 div but like Cotto, hasn't fought any real elite fighter at the weight... Karmazin also rocked him bad a couple times. Just don't see the examples you do to suggest moving up isn't more difficult the lower weight you fight at.. Even if you want to go by percentage.
It's not more difficult to move from bantamweight to super bantamweight than it is to move from light welter to welter!
Everybody has a tipping point and a natural bodyweight beyond which they can't succesfully move up, for example for Barrera, Pacquaio and Morales the 130 lb super featherweight limit is about as far as they can go but to conclude from that that it's harder to move from Super feather to lightweight than from another two weight classes makes no sense at all, it just depends on the individual! Mayweather found the transition easy for example.
I'm not saying being a multiple weight champion at the lower weight is easy but it's no different than moving up through the weights in any weight class, the weights are carefully calculated that way.
For example you don't have to add 7 lbs to go from bantam to super bantam you just need to add 4 lbs so the increase in bodyweight as a percentage is exactly the same.
Ever heard of Wilfredo Gomez? Yes and so what? Ever heard of Ricky Hatton? :P Some people just ain't cut out for moving through the divisions!
Hopkins moved up two divisions (15 lbs) in one go and beat the man at 175 lb. Thats a bigger feat than moving up one division and 4 lbs any way you look at it.
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Re: Rafael Marquez closing in on the 'top 3'?
Oh and just boxrec'd Wilfredo Gomez. He won world titles in 3 weight classes so hardly a good example of your point ::** :P
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Re: Rafael Marquez closing in on the 'top 3'?
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Originally Posted by Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by p4pking
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by p4pking
Especially since he fights at a low weight division, which not only does not receive the same attention and therefore mega fights as higher div's, in addition, it is much more difficult to successfully move up divisions, the smaller you are.
I would dispute that. The weight differences between the lower weights remains the same as a percentage of body weight, for example there is a 7lb jump between light welter to full welter but only 5 lbs from lightweight to light welter.
With the lower weights the actual lb difference is even less about 2 or 3 lbs for the lowest weights so the percentage as a bodyweight remains the same.
Pacqiao started out at 106 lbs and has climbed 6 divisions, Morales has climbed 5, Barrera 5, Guzman 3 etc.
Marquez climbing one division in his entire career is actually no more impressive than Cotto, Hatton, Judah, Spinks and a host of others in fact I'd say it was a minimum requirement for any smaller fighter to fufill in order to even be considered for the top 10 p4p.
Ever heard of Wilfredo Gomez? 4 lbs was enough to turn him from an amazing p4p fighter to someone who couldn't beat the elite. Either way, it is more difficult imo. Pac, or Morales, moved up weight divisions because they turned pro extremely young, and had to move up because their bodies were still growing. When did Pac fight at 106?? 17 years old? And Guzman isn't exactly a great example to use. He had great KO power at featherweight, yet 4 lbs higher, he doesn't, whatsoever... And look at the examples you use to compare Marquez move up. Hatton???? He moved up 7 lbs and (imo), lost, to a fighter who was not elite. Cotto, yeah he moved up, but it was more due to him not being able to make 140 anymore(like Morales or Pac)... And he still hasn't beat a good welterweight..Judah? meh... Spinks size really wasn't a big issue he had 0 power and it was more that he matched up well with Zab. Spinks, only moved up 1 div but like Cotto, hasn't fought any real elite fighter at the weight... Karmazin also rocked him bad a couple times. Just don't see the examples you do to suggest moving up isn't more difficult the lower weight you fight at.. Even if you want to go by percentage.
It's not more difficult to move from bantamweight to super bantamweight than it is to move from light welter to welter!
Everybody has a tipping point and a natural bodyweight beyond which they can't succesfully move up, for example for Barrera, Pacquaio and Morales the 130 lb super featherweight limit is about as far as they can go but to conclude from that that it's harder to move from Super feather to lightweight than from another two weight classes makes no sense at all, it just depends on the individual! Mayweather found the transition easy for example.
I'm not saying being a multiple weight champion at the lower weight is easy but it's no different than moving up through the weights in any weight class, the weights are carefully calculated that way.
For example you don't have to add 7 lbs to go from bantam to super bantam you just need to add 4 lbs so the increase in bodyweight as a percentage is exactly the same.
Ever heard of Wilfredo Gomez? Yes and so what? Ever heard of Ricky Hatton? :P Some people just ain't cut out for moving through the divisions!
Hopkins moved up two divisions (15 lbs) in one go and beat the man at 175 lb. Thats a bigger feat than moving up one division and 4 lbs any way you look at it.
You may be right, though it's questionable, but even still, it all depends on the fighter, over the amoutnof weight a fighter moved up. In other words, moving up 15 lbs to beat Tarver was impressive, but Tarver was not even in shape for that fight and himself lost over 25 lbs to make the fight...Yes, he was the man at the division, but are you going to imply that the LHW division was strong at the time, or now?? Not at all. Hopkins moving up 15 lbs to fight Tarver would not have been nearly as impressive as his moving up 8 lbs to fight Calzaghe, in mine and many others opinions... It all depends on the fighter. Basically, I think you are underrating Vasquez, which is a point you still haven't adressed...
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Re: Rafael Marquez closing in on the 'top 3'?
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Originally Posted by p4pking
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Originally Posted by Bilbo
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Originally Posted by p4pking
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Originally Posted by Bilbo
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Originally Posted by p4pking
Especially since he fights at a low weight division, which not only does not receive the same attention and therefore mega fights as higher div's, in addition, it is much more difficult to successfully move up divisions, the smaller you are.
I would dispute that. The weight differences between the lower weights remains the same as a percentage of body weight, for example there is a 7lb jump between light welter to full welter but only 5 lbs from lightweight to light welter.
With the lower weights the actual lb difference is even less about 2 or 3 lbs for the lowest weights so the percentage as a bodyweight remains the same.
Pacqiao started out at 106 lbs and has climbed 6 divisions, Morales has climbed 5, Barrera 5, Guzman 3 etc.
Marquez climbing one division in his entire career is actually no more impressive than Cotto, Hatton, Judah, Spinks and a host of others in fact I'd say it was a minimum requirement for any smaller fighter to fufill in order to even be considered for the top 10 p4p.
Ever heard of Wilfredo Gomez? 4 lbs was enough to turn him from an amazing p4p fighter to someone who couldn't beat the elite. Either way, it is more difficult imo. Pac, or Morales, moved up weight divisions because they turned pro extremely young, and had to move up because their bodies were still growing. When did Pac fight at 106?? 17 years old? And Guzman isn't exactly a great example to use. He had great KO power at featherweight, yet 4 lbs higher, he doesn't, whatsoever... And look at the examples you use to compare Marquez move up. Hatton???? He moved up 7 lbs and (imo), lost, to a fighter who was not elite. Cotto, yeah he moved up, but it was more due to him not being able to make 140 anymore(like Morales or Pac)... And he still hasn't beat a good welterweight..Judah? meh... Spinks size really wasn't a big issue he had 0 power and it was more that he matched up well with Zab. Spinks, only moved up 1 div but like Cotto, hasn't fought any real elite fighter at the weight... Karmazin also rocked him bad a couple times. Just don't see the examples you do to suggest moving up isn't more difficult the lower weight you fight at.. Even if you want to go by percentage.
It's not more difficult to move from bantamweight to super bantamweight than it is to move from light welter to welter!
Everybody has a tipping point and a natural bodyweight beyond which they can't succesfully move up, for example for Barrera, Pacquaio and Morales the 130 lb super featherweight limit is about as far as they can go but to conclude from that that it's harder to move from Super feather to lightweight than from another two weight classes makes no sense at all, it just depends on the individual! Mayweather found the transition easy for example.
I'm not saying being a multiple weight champion at the lower weight is easy but it's no different than moving up through the weights in any weight class, the weights are carefully calculated that way.
For example you don't have to add 7 lbs to go from bantam to super bantam you just need to add 4 lbs so the increase in bodyweight as a percentage is exactly the same.
Ever heard of Wilfredo Gomez? Yes and so what? Ever heard of Ricky Hatton? :P Some people just ain't cut out for moving through the divisions!
Hopkins moved up two divisions (15 lbs) in one go and beat the man at 175 lb. Thats a bigger feat than moving up one division and 4 lbs any way you look at it.
You may be right, though it's questionable, but even still, it all depends on the fighter, over the amoutnof weight a fighter moved up. In other words, moving up 15 lbs to beat Tarver was impressive, but Tarver was not even in shape for that fight and himself lost over 25 lbs to make the fight...Yes, he was the man at the division, but are you going to imply that the LHW division was strong at the time, or now?? Not at all. Hopkins moving up 15 lbs to fight Tarver would not have been nearly as impressive as his moving up 8 lbs to fight Calzaghe, in mine and many others opinions... It all depends on the fighter. Basically, I think you are underrating Vasquez, which is a point you still haven't adressed...
Believe me I'm not underatting Vazquez I rate him really, but he's on a level with guys like Coralles, Zab Judah, Cory Spinks etc. If you want to be in the top 10 p4p you HAVE to beat those guys!
And thats not underating Vazquez at all. If you think that then you are underatting the top three guys I mentioned above who have ALL achieved more in their careers than Vazquez, all three have been undisputed champions and all three have ruled two weight divisions, something which Vazquez has not done.
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Re: Rafael Marquez closing in on the 'top 3'?
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Originally Posted by Bilbo
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Originally Posted by p4pking
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Originally Posted by Bilbo
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Originally Posted by p4pking
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Originally Posted by Bilbo
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Originally Posted by p4pking
Especially since he fights at a low weight division, which not only does not receive the same attention and therefore mega fights as higher div's, in addition, it is much more difficult to successfully move up divisions, the smaller you are.
I would dispute that. The weight differences between the lower weights remains the same as a percentage of body weight, for example there is a 7lb jump between light welter to full welter but only 5 lbs from lightweight to light welter.
With the lower weights the actual lb difference is even less about 2 or 3 lbs for the lowest weights so the percentage as a bodyweight remains the same.
Pacqiao started out at 106 lbs and has climbed 6 divisions, Morales has climbed 5, Barrera 5, Guzman 3 etc.
Marquez climbing one division in his entire career is actually no more impressive than Cotto, Hatton, Judah, Spinks and a host of others in fact I'd say it was a minimum requirement for any smaller fighter to fufill in order to even be considered for the top 10 p4p.
Ever heard of Wilfredo Gomez? 4 lbs was enough to turn him from an amazing p4p fighter to someone who couldn't beat the elite. Either way, it is more difficult imo. Pac, or Morales, moved up weight divisions because they turned pro extremely young, and had to move up because their bodies were still growing. When did Pac fight at 106?? 17 years old? And Guzman isn't exactly a great example to use. He had great KO power at featherweight, yet 4 lbs higher, he doesn't, whatsoever... And look at the examples you use to compare Marquez move up. Hatton???? He moved up 7 lbs and (imo), lost, to a fighter who was not elite. Cotto, yeah he moved up, but it was more due to him not being able to make 140 anymore(like Morales or Pac)... And he still hasn't beat a good welterweight..Judah? meh... Spinks size really wasn't a big issue he had 0 power and it was more that he matched up well with Zab. Spinks, only moved up 1 div but like Cotto, hasn't fought any real elite fighter at the weight... Karmazin also rocked him bad a couple times. Just don't see the examples you do to suggest moving up isn't more difficult the lower weight you fight at.. Even if you want to go by percentage.
It's not more difficult to move from bantamweight to super bantamweight than it is to move from light welter to welter!
Everybody has a tipping point and a natural bodyweight beyond which they can't succesfully move up, for example for Barrera, Pacquaio and Morales the 130 lb super featherweight limit is about as far as they can go but to conclude from that that it's harder to move from Super feather to lightweight than from another two weight classes makes no sense at all, it just depends on the individual! Mayweather found the transition easy for example.
I'm not saying being a multiple weight champion at the lower weight is easy but it's no different than moving up through the weights in any weight class, the weights are carefully calculated that way.
For example you don't have to add 7 lbs to go from bantam to super bantam you just need to add 4 lbs so the increase in bodyweight as a percentage is exactly the same.
Ever heard of Wilfredo Gomez? Yes and so what? Ever heard of Ricky Hatton? :P Some people just ain't cut out for moving through the divisions!
Hopkins moved up two divisions (15 lbs) in one go and beat the man at 175 lb. Thats a bigger feat than moving up one division and 4 lbs any way you look at it.
You may be right, though it's questionable, but even still, it all depends on the fighter, over the amoutnof weight a fighter moved up. In other words, moving up 15 lbs to beat Tarver was impressive, but Tarver was not even in shape for that fight and himself lost over 25 lbs to make the fight...Yes, he was the man at the division, but are you going to imply that the LHW division was strong at the time, or now?? Not at all. Hopkins moving up 15 lbs to fight Tarver would not have been nearly as impressive as his moving up 8 lbs to fight Calzaghe, in mine and many others opinions... It all depends on the fighter. Basically, I think you are underrating Vasquez, which is a point you still haven't adressed...
Believe me I'm not underatting Vazquez I rate him really, but he's on a level with guys like Coralles, Zab Judah, Cory Spinks etc. If you want to be in the top 10 p4p you HAVE to beat those guys!
And thats not underating Vazquez at all. If you think that then you are underatting the top three guys I mentioned above who have ALL achieved more in their careers than Vazquez, all three have been undisputed champions and all three have ruled two weight divisions, something which Vazquez has not done.
Well that basically brings us back to my original point, whether you regard achievements higher than physical skill at an elite level... Hell, CC Bilbo, great debate, can't think of anyting that would turn the tide in my favour definetively...
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Re: Rafael Marquez closing in on the 'top 3'?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
I mean look at Cotto. Surely this guy has every bit the talent and potential that Marquez has? But he's yet to really get into the top 10 p4p at all. If he beats Judah, who is on a par with Vazquez it won't leap him to number 3, and remember Cotto has just moved up, same as Marquez.
Judahs NOT the man to beat at Welter. unless you have Judah in your P4P rankings now?
Cotto moved up and beat Quintana for a vacant belt.
Marquez moved up and beat an established champ.
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Re: Rafael Marquez closing in on the 'top 3'?
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Originally Posted by p4pking
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by p4pking
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by p4pking
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by p4pking
Especially since he fights at a low weight division, which not only does not receive the same attention and therefore mega fights as higher div's, in addition, it is much more difficult to successfully move up divisions, the smaller you are.
I would dispute that. The weight differences between the lower weights remains the same as a percentage of body weight, for example there is a 7lb jump between light welter to full welter but only 5 lbs from lightweight to light welter.
With the lower weights the actual lb difference is even less about 2 or 3 lbs for the lowest weights so the percentage as a bodyweight remains the same.
Pacqiao started out at 106 lbs and has climbed 6 divisions, Morales has climbed 5, Barrera 5, Guzman 3 etc.
Marquez climbing one division in his entire career is actually no more impressive than Cotto, Hatton, Judah, Spinks and a host of others in fact I'd say it was a minimum requirement for any smaller fighter to fufill in order to even be considered for the top 10 p4p.
Ever heard of Wilfredo Gomez? 4 lbs was enough to turn him from an amazing p4p fighter to someone who couldn't beat the elite. Either way, it is more difficult imo. Pac, or Morales, moved up weight divisions because they turned pro extremely young, and had to move up because their bodies were still growing. When did Pac fight at 106?? 17 years old? And Guzman isn't exactly a great example to use. He had great KO power at featherweight, yet 4 lbs higher, he doesn't, whatsoever... And look at the examples you use to compare Marquez move up. Hatton???? He moved up 7 lbs and (imo), lost, to a fighter who was not elite. Cotto, yeah he moved up, but it was more due to him not being able to make 140 anymore(like Morales or Pac)... And he still hasn't beat a good welterweight..Judah? meh... Spinks size really wasn't a big issue he had 0 power and it was more that he matched up well with Zab. Spinks, only moved up 1 div but like Cotto, hasn't fought any real elite fighter at the weight... Karmazin also rocked him bad a couple times. Just don't see the examples you do to suggest moving up isn't more difficult the lower weight you fight at.. Even if you want to go by percentage.
It's not more difficult to move from bantamweight to super bantamweight than it is to move from light welter to welter!
Everybody has a tipping point and a natural bodyweight beyond which they can't succesfully move up, for example for Barrera, Pacquaio and Morales the 130 lb super featherweight limit is about as far as they can go but to conclude from that that it's harder to move from Super feather to lightweight than from another two weight classes makes no sense at all, it just depends on the individual! Mayweather found the transition easy for example.
I'm not saying being a multiple weight champion at the lower weight is easy but it's no different than moving up through the weights in any weight class, the weights are carefully calculated that way.
For example you don't have to add 7 lbs to go from bantam to super bantam you just need to add 4 lbs so the increase in bodyweight as a percentage is exactly the same.
Ever heard of Wilfredo Gomez? Yes and so what? Ever heard of Ricky Hatton? :P Some people just ain't cut out for moving through the divisions!
Hopkins moved up two divisions (15 lbs) in one go and beat the man at 175 lb. Thats a bigger feat than moving up one division and 4 lbs any way you look at it.
You may be right, though it's questionable, but even still, it all depends on the fighter, over the amoutnof weight a fighter moved up. In other words, moving up 15 lbs to beat Tarver was impressive, but Tarver was not even in shape for that fight and himself lost over 25 lbs to make the fight...Yes, he was the man at the division, but are you going to imply that the LHW division was strong at the time, or now?? Not at all. Hopkins moving up 15 lbs to fight Tarver would not have been nearly as impressive as his moving up 8 lbs to fight Calzaghe, in mine and many others opinions... It all depends on the fighter. Basically, I think you are underrating Vasquez, which is a point you still haven't adressed...
Believe me I'm not underatting Vazquez I rate him really, but he's on a level with guys like Coralles, Zab Judah, Cory Spinks etc. If you want to be in the top 10 p4p you HAVE to beat those guys!
And thats not underating Vazquez at all. If you think that then you are underatting the top three guys I mentioned above who have ALL achieved more in their careers than Vazquez, all three have been undisputed champions and all three have ruled two weight divisions, something which Vazquez has not done.
Well that basically brings us back to my original point, whether you regard achievements higher than physical skill at an elite level... Hell, CC Bilbo, great debate, can't think of anyting that would turn the tide in my favour definetively...
:coolclick: returned mate, a good debate is good for the mind I think.
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Re: Rafael Marquez closing in on the 'top 3'?
Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMicK
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
I mean look at Cotto. Surely this guy has every bit the talent and potential that Marquez has? But he's yet to really get into the top 10 p4p at all. If he beats Judah, who is on a par with Vazquez it won't leap him to number 3, and remember Cotto has just moved up, same as Marquez.
Judahs NOT the man to beat at Welter. unless you have Judah in your P4P rankings now?
Cotto moved up and beat Quintana for a vacant belt.
Marquez moved up and beat an established champ.
Yes I agree but Judah WAS once the man at welter. Plus I was using that as an example that Cotto even if does beat Judah easily in no way surges to number 3 p4p!
Anyway Tarver was THE man at light heavy and Hopkins moved up two divisions to beat him :P
Vazquez is on a par with Coralles, Judah, Spinks etc as I said above. There is no argument that convince otherwise, just look at his record. How is he better than Coralles? What has he done more than Zab Judah? Or Cory?
Nothing, he's a great fighter, very exciting to watch but comes up short in the big fights. Larios stopped him too remember, I know he got him back but that puts him in the same class as a Coralles level fighter.
I don't see how beating Vazquez makes anyone p4p number 3 any more than Coralles? ???
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Re: Rafael Marquez closing in on the 'top 3'?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Yes I agree but Judah WAS once the man at welter.
Was is past tense it means NOTHING now...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Plus I was using that as an example that Cotto even if does beat Judah easily in no way surges to number 3 p4p!
Of course Cotto beating Judah would not leap him to #3 thats cause Judahs barely makes top 10 Welters. nevermind P4P.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Anyway Tarver was THE man at light heavy and Hopkins moved up two divisions to beat him :P
You are right Tarver was the man at LH but you also gotta remember B-Hop was coming off 2 back to back loses.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Vazquez is on a par with Coralles, Judah, Spinks etc as I said above. There is no argument that convince otherwise, just look at his record. How is he better than Coralles? What has he done more than Zab Judah? Or Cory?
Hes better then them cause he was able to reign as Champ. and the Ring champ.
I don't think Corrales, Judah or Cory were Ring champs if memory serves me right......
Well Bilbo as we say around here agree to disagree.... ;D
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Re: Rafael Marquez closing in on the 'top 3'?
Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMicK
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Yes I agree but Judah WAS once the man at welter.
Was is past tense it means NOTHING now...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Plus I was using that as an example that Cotto even if does beat Judah easily in no way surges to number 3 p4p!
Of course Cotto beating Judah would not leap him to #3 thats cause Judahs barely makes top 10 Welters. nevermind P4P.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Anyway Tarver was THE man at light heavy and Hopkins moved up two divisions to beat him :P
You are right Tarver was the man at LH but you also gotta remember B-Hop was coming off 2 back to back loses.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Vazquez is on a par with Coralles, Judah, Spinks etc as I said above. There is no argument that convince otherwise, just look at his record. How is he better than Coralles? What has he done more than Zab Judah? Or Cory?
Hes better then them cause he was able to reign as Champ. and the Ring champ.
I don't think Corrales, Judah or Cory were Ring champs if memory serves me right......
Well Bilbo as we say around here agree to disagree.... ;D
Just let me ask you this.....
If all the fighters weighed the same and could compete in a theoretical p4p matchup do you honestly see Vazquez beating any of the following?
Mayweather,
Wright,
Paquiao,
Barrera,
Hopkins,
Calzaghe,
Taylor
You know as well as I do that if they all weighed the same all of those fighters would have beaten Vazquez just as easily as Marquez.
Beating Vazquez, however emphatically does not make somone a top 3 p4p fighter. Marquez is about 7 or 8 p4p.
As I said before thats where the Ring rank him and I agree completely.
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Re: Rafael Marquez closing in on the 'top 3'?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMicK
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Yes I agree but Judah WAS once the man at welter.
Was is past tense it means NOTHING now...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Plus I was using that as an example that Cotto even if does beat Judah easily in no way surges to number 3 p4p!
Of course Cotto beating Judah would not leap him to #3 thats cause Judahs barely makes top 10 Welters. nevermind P4P.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Anyway Tarver was THE man at light heavy and Hopkins moved up two divisions to beat him :P
You are right Tarver was the man at LH but you also gotta remember B-Hop was coming off 2 back to back loses.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Vazquez is on a par with Coralles, Judah, Spinks etc as I said above. There is no argument that convince otherwise, just look at his record. How is he better than Coralles? What has he done more than Zab Judah? Or Cory?
Hes better then them cause he was able to reign as Champ. and the Ring champ.
I don't think Corrales, Judah or Cory were Ring champs if memory serves me right......
Well Bilbo as we say around here agree to disagree.... ;D
Just let me ask you this.....
If all the fighters weighed the same and could compete in a theoretical p4p matchup do you honestly see Vazquez beating any of the following?
Mayweather,
Wright,
Paquiao,
Barrera,
Hopkins,
Calzaghe,
Taylor
You know as well as I do that if they all weighed the same all of those fighters would have beaten Vazquez just as easily as Marquez.
Beating Vazquez, however emphatically does not make somone a top 3 p4p fighter. Marquez is about 7 or 8 p4p.
As I said before thats where the Ring rank him and I agree completely.
I see Vazquez walking right through Calzaghe. But he would lose against the rest.
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Re: Rafael Marquez closing in on the 'top 3'?
It does not matter how you look at P4P: Based on accomplishments,based on skills,based on one ha sbeaten,Rafa is top 3. P4P,his accomplishments are better than Winky's imo. All the RING fighters he has beaten,2 legends(austin and Johnson), Vazquez who is easily P4P top 15,stopping most of these quality fighters on the way,thats a heck of an achievement.I'll add more later.
