ok, so we had the question about tyson vs sapp. How about mike tyson vs mirko filipovic?? Only hands, tyson would win. MMA, mirko would win. Your thoughts??
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ok, so we had the question about tyson vs sapp. How about mike tyson vs mirko filipovic?? Only hands, tyson would win. MMA, mirko would win. Your thoughts??
tyson in his prime could take any mma'er under any rules. He hit far too fast and far too hard. And even today, Tyson could still take nearly all heavyweight mma'ers if he wanted to get back to fighting. The guy was awesome.
Van will disagree. lol.
I was watching the last ufc in a bar and for once I heard a guy agree with me... it's easier to teach a sprawl than it is to teach boxing mastery.
I disagree, i think tyson in his prime would get beaten by Mirko, as a matter of fact i think Tyson in his Prime would get beaten by someone like Melvin Manhoef (shoot me...go on do it). Great fists, but the kicks, tysons legs are not conditioned to take em. if its a boxing contest then sure but MMA is a different gravy. I think whoever fought him would clearly not bang with him and have a gameplan. Having said that tysons head movement was some of the best in the business but i eventually think he'd get worn down and nailed or taken to the ground and swiflty subbed.
Tyson was a fantastic fighter but he wasn't superhuman. His forte was only one fighting range, MMA covers all bases and the chances are he would be too inept at the other bases to defend against them.
both great fighters, in something like UFC or cage rage where grappling is allowed, if tyson got down to the floor with a gracie, no chance, but then does anyone really on the floor. If tyson had learnt maybe a bit of vale tudo and ju jitsu he could havve been amazing.
yeah, but it's kinda tough to kick a guy in the leg when he's swarming and overwhelming you with power and speed.
no cc for you! ;D
You know Tyson probably did miss his calling as a MMA fighter....I personally have always felt the guy is vastly overrated as a boxer, but with an all around training in MMA he would have been a Fedor like fighter. That being said my issue with boxers, w/little to no MMA training, in an MMA fight is why would an all around fighter choose to "box" with him. Also I simply don't see boxing and mma striking as the same thing. I look at it like a baseball pitcher and a softball pitcher. Some end result and concept but with some fundemental differences. There are techniques taught in boxing that work b/c you don't have to worry about kicks, fighting from the clinch and takedowns. A prime Tyson had awesome handspeed and power so in any fight it would make him dangerous, but if I'm a MMA fighter or hell just plain old me the one thing I'm not going to do is attempt to "box" or trade punches with him. And if I'm a world class kickboxer like Mirko I'm going to use a variety of leg kicks and clinch fighting to slow down and frustrate mike then put him away with the most devastating strike in MMA....CroCop's left high kick. I don't give Mike anything more than a punchers chance against any top MMA HW
Van, I'll give you Fedor and Mirko as a legit challenge to a prime tyson, but that's it. They are talented. But other than that, Tyson would rip their head off.
Frank Trigg once said that it would only take fedor a minute and a half or so to get tyson to the ground and beat him up, to which I ask, but how much damage could tyson have done in that minute and a half? Lots. 4oz gloves on a guy that hit like a mack truck with pinpoint precision. it would only take one, and you know he'd land it eventually. Like I said, it's tough to kick a guy when he's swarming you. And it's also hard to thai clinch a guy as he's breaking your ribs because his power is so awesome.
a smart commisions would never allow gracie in with a tyson. tyson would kill royce, literally. he'd either hit him in the head so hard he'd concus or in the body so hard he's break his ribs and puncture his lungs. 4 oz gloves on tyson would have been a death wish for anyone willing to face him..Quote:
Originally Posted by Pit_bull
Sorry Von, this whole 'swarming' thing doesn't cut it with me. I'd even go far as to say it would be pretty quick. Whoever was up against him would just fend and go in for the shoot. Tyson would have to be (IMO) pretty lucky to land a punch on the button as someone was coming in trying to take him down. He's not used to it...once he's down then he'd be like a lamb to the slaughter.
Knowing tyson, once he was down he'd probably realise this and bite a chunk out of the guys clavicle or something.
Hate to say this but i think even Royce Gracie circa 92-93 would have little trouble putting tyson away in less than 3 mins. All they would have to do is fend as the shoot came in, once he's within clinch/takedwon range its basically all over. Tyson would then resort to primal instinct and the streetfighter in him would take over.
He'd get Dqed or soundly handed his ass in an MMA match.
Now if tsyon cross trained...well, thats another story.
sorry pal.. you'll never convince me. this is why people bet. :)
Actually, he would have been nothing like a "Fedor type fighter". Tyson is a striker. Fedor is a ground fighter. He has decent power, but all of his strikes are geared to work with GNP. If anything, Tyson would have been more like Mirko. Also, if Tyson were in MMA, Mirko's LHK wouldn't be the most devastating strike in MMA.Quote:
Originally Posted by VanChilds
Even with no cross-training, I'd pick Tyson over Mirko. With no training, I could even see him giving Fedor all kinds of trouble. Fedor is not trained to deal with strikes that powerful, in that kind of rapid succession. If he got Mike to the ground, that would be bad for Mikey, but here's the thing... Tyson at 5'11 and 220 was very compact, and IMO way more Explosive than Fedor, taught a simple sprawl, that's a hard man to take down.
I think you misunderstood me. Fedor is an all around fighter who is deadly in all facets of the MMA game. He combines a swarming standup game, great athleticism and toughnes with excellent grappling and submissions to be the P4P best. If Tyson were to have spent years training in sambo or something of the like then he too would combine great striking with a good ground game. There is more to takedown defense than just a good sprawl. I use sweeps tosses much more than single and double leg takedowns. While Ill agree that yes a prime tyson would bring a unique skill set not seen much in MMA he too would be facing fighters w/athleticism and skills that he as well has never faced. His skills asside Tyson is a weak minded individual who when forced to dig down suck it up would crumble much like he has in his boxing career. I still contend that being able to "box" well is not the same thing as being a great MMA striker. It is only b/c of Mike's handspeed and power that I'd even entertain him as a possible threat for any top mma HW. Furthermore we would have to wait and see how well mike himself handled being hit w/ 4oz gloves.
i have a mixed view, Tyson's punches were devastating, but after doing lots of different martial arts, boxing, muay thai etc. ive noticed that when i get in a clinch with a boxer, they are not half as good as a muay thai fighter, they cant throw knees, elbows etc. (although elbows are banned now). I watched a programme where a guy could knee so hard he can push your chest in 2 inches and that is the power of something like a 35 mile an hour car . Tyson may be strong, but i dont think anyone can really take that. On the other hand Tyson was an inside fighter, so he may pull of what he did to frank bruno in the corner.
If Kevin Randleman can get inside on Mirko then Tyson shouldn't have a problem. Mirko got leg kicks but he doesn't take pressure as well as people think, he likes to keep a distance and he has a good submission game, but Tyson would bullrush him from the word go and before Mirko could get a shot off Tyson would be on him, Tyson wouldn't just sprawl with no defense or form in his punches, he would and could beat Mirko. But if Tyson stayed at a distance where Mirko could pick him off then of course Crocop would win.
there is really no reason that an MMA fighter couldn't do exactly what Lewis/Holyfield/Douglass all did to Tyson. Simply tie him up on the inside. If these three boxers were able to tie him up and neutralize him while wearing boxing gloves on the inside than why couldn't a top MMA HW. Especially considering the amount of time they spend on muay thai and fighting from the clinch. Some day when the money is right maybe we will see a world class boxer get in against a top MMA and we will find out how they would fair. I still maintain that boxing's skill set although very helpful does not directly correlate to mma striking and that being one dimensional regardless of how dominant you are at that one dimension makes you very vulnerable in MMA
What I dont get is that in every single MMA vs boxer argument, nobody ever seems to take into account that it IS possible for a boxer to learn other aspects of martial arts. I'd consider myself more a boxer than anything else, but that doesn't mean I can't roll a little bit.
And for the argument that "nobody would try to box with a boxer"...very few people tried to roll with a Gracie, or trade kicks with Mirko. That's why fighters win. You MAKE them fight your fight. Tyson wouldn't try to out grapple Royce, and Royce wouldn't try to outbox Tyson. It would boil down to who is able to make the fight stay where they want it. When Royce couldn't get the fights where he wanted, he lost. In all honesty, it didn't take the mixed martial arts world terribly long to learn to counter BJJ. Then they learned to counter wrestling. Now, they have to learn to counter a striker who WON'T go to the ground.
Tyson would NEVER come into MMA and refuse to learn the other aspects....to do so would be suicide. But if he can learn to sprawl and clinch and defend subs, he has some of the greatest striking ability the world has ever seen. Imagine a Chuck Liddell who can actually box...Tyson, if he put the work into it, could have been potentially the most devestating force the fighting world had ever seen.
Those guys are a TON better at tying a guy up on the inside. It's also a lot easier to tie a guy up who's wearing 10 or 12oz gloves vs. 4.Quote:
Originally Posted by VanChilds
Tyson never faced BJJ. But BJJ never faced a guy who hit as hard and fast as Tyson... or Evander, or Lewis, or even good old James Buster Douglas.
We'll soon see. I imagine Shannon Briggs might make the leap.. he already fought in K1 so maybe we'll see what he can do elsewhere. 6'4", 240 of pure muscle. That dwarfs even Fedor at 6' 230 with a gut.
LOL dunno why but that just made me laugh. Its true thoughQuote:
Originally Posted by Von Milash
Are we still talking about Tyson the boxer here with no training in any other art (even sprawling) or are we talking about Tyson who has cross trained a bit? Because they are very different dicsussions
Heavy, typically this argument comes out of someone suggesting that a boxer could simpyl get into an MMA ring and win. The topic wasn't if Tyson had spent an extended period of time cross training in multiple disciplines how would he fair against Mirko. Yall can go on and on about Tyson if you want. I personally think he is the most overrated fighter ever. But thats another topic. Its not entirely correct to say no one attempted to role with Gracie. He was defeated in Pride by Yoshida(ruled a draw but anyone who saw it knows the truth) and Hughes in UFC. The fights were almost all on the ground. Hunt defeated Mirko in Pride in a slugfest. Matt Hughes might have lost to GSP in their rematch anyway but he'd of lasted longer if he hadn't tried to trade punches. The point is fighters even great ones attempt to go against their bettter judgement all the time. Although it didn't take MMA terribly long to learn to counter BJJ fighters everyone in MMA spends a considerable amount of time learning it. You can't be successful w/o a general level. The whole argument about "what if chuck could box" is crap. Once again the boxing skill set and techniques do not directly correlate to MMA striking. Chuck is an extremely accurate and devastating puncher and seems to be doing pretty well with his style. His striking doesn't look like boxing, b/c id ISN'T and it shouldn't be. A boxer would have to make some basic changes in technique in a MMA ring. So sure a top level boxer with good amount of time cross training would be successful in MMA. But he wouldn't really be just a boxer anymore would he?Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavy D
CC...that ties in with what i said above.Quote:
Originally Posted by VanChilds
What makes them any better at tying someone up? How do you know that NO one in MMA hits as hard or fast as Evander/Lewis/Tyson/Douglas? I love how MMA fighters are professional fighters just like boxers and spend hours in the gym training on striking just like a boxer does, some have been in martial arts since childhood but its impossible that they might have equal handspeed and power as a top level boxer. That guys can spend years doing muay thai and fighting in the clinch but are far inferior to a boxer in tying someone up. There are numerous MMA fighters with oustanding KO ratio's but its inconcievable that they could hit just as hard as a boxer? If its possible for a boxer to spend some time working on his sprawl and be able to handle world class wrestlers and submission artists than its equally possible that a professional fighter who works on striking everyday would be able to hang with a world class boxer. No?Quote:
Originally Posted by Von Milash
What makes them any better at tying someone up? How do you know that NO one in MMA hits as hard or fast as Evander/Lewis/Tyson/Douglas? I love how MMA fighters are professional fighters just like boxers and spend hours in the gym training on striking just like a boxer does, some have been in martial arts since childhood but its impossible that they might have equal handspeed and power as a top level boxer. That guys can spend years doing muay thai and fighting in the clinch but are far inferior to a boxer in tying someone up. There are numerous MMA fighters with oustanding KO ratio's but its inconcievable that they could hit just as hard as a boxer? If its possible for a boxer to spend some time working on his sprawl and be able to handle world class wrestlers and submission artists than its equally possible that a professional fighter who works on striking everyday would be able to hang with a world class boxer. No?
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Do I hate it when some asks questions and then answers them?
Yes. Yes, I do.
good insightful comment bomber. you must have spent some time and put alot of thought into your post. If you got a opinion or view point I'm more than interested in hearing it..but if your just interested in being a smart ass dont't waste our time
Van, show me one mma guy who can throw combos like any of those boxers. and show me one mma guy who can simple take the fight down at will. babalu tried to take down chuck and got killed. and show me one fight that doesn't start with stand-up. MMA punching is as crude and sloppy as it gets. No jab, or pawing at best, they go for one shot KO's, etc. Mirko, who probably could transition to top level boxing, is the only guy who's ever impressed me with his hands. and we all know how good he is. Like I said before, I'll give you mirko and fedor... they'd have a shot, but do you really think gracie back in his prime could have survived even 30seconds with fasts as fast as Tyson's?
I'm also not sure why everyone thinks it's so hard to sprawl. It aint THAT hard. It's a HELL of a lot harder to teach 15years worth of boxing that it is a sprawl.
Von I don't know why you expect striking to resemble boxing. They aren't the same thing. I'd say in a championship boxing match a fighter gets hit by 5-10 good flush shots that aren't jabs per round. This is not acceptable in MMA fights w/ 4 oz gloves. You don't have to be earnie shavers or even chris byrd to turn someones lights out w/ 4 oz gloves. Almost everything in boxing works off a good jab this simply isn't the case in MMA. Chuck is a very precise puncher who has excellent timing, hand speed and use of angles. Yes most of his punches are looping. This is b/c he uses a wide base and utilizes his reach and height by circling on the outside of his opponent. Hence a wide punch. Many of MMA's best strikers techniques are very different than top boxers b/c it takes a different technique to be successful. Phil Baroni, Vitor Belfort both have excellent hand speed and power. Alexsander Emelianko has great hand speed as well as KO power. Arlovski is another fighter with quick hands and power. If you can find Jeremy Williams's MMA fights watch them. Jeremy is a lifel long boxer but his technique definately didn't resemble a classic boxing style. Once again there is more to keeping a fight standing up than just a good sprawl.
tyson is probably the best street fighter to grace the planet earth.......i dont think a young tyson would have much trouble with these mma boobs........tyson was an animal he would have loved this kind of fight
Not to pick out the one example, but Belfort was a boxer. Former LW champ Jens Pulver was a boxer. How did Sylvia become champion? There are plenty of giants in MMA, and most of them suck. It was his ability to utilize his freak size through superior boxing. How did Couture beat Liddell and Sylvia? It wasn't with his wrestling...it was his boxing. How does Cro Cop win his fights? His boxing, which he uses to set up his killer LHK. Without his boxing skills, it would be useless.
Munky, I said "very few", not nobody. The examples you listed were the exception, not the rule. Those were cases where the other person was simply better than their opponent in that given field. Hughes is simply better on the ground than Royce...his strength and wrestling skills simply overshadow Royce's. Hunt isn't the best technical fighter, but his chin and strength are just too much for even the mighty Cro Cop....hell, he ate a direct hit from his LHK, the most feared strike in all MMA, and didn't even flinch. Even in K1, he just fell over and laughed at himself as he stood.
And exactly what this thread was about, Tyson directly or Tyson with some training, I don't remember and am too lazy to check. Either way...I honestly feel Tyson with NO training would win the majority of his fights, even against a good deal of top tier fighters. Tyson WITH training would decimate almost anybody I could think of.
I guess either way, this question will never be answered, because even if Tyson WERE to come over to MMA, he's second rate, if even. He's been beaten by shlubs at his own game over and over.
cc D. It looks like it's you ans me vs munky and Van. lol. I think we can take 'em. :laugh:
Van, the reason so few people equate boxing with mma "striking" is because so few mma practitioners do it well, or even properly. MMA "boxing" (what you call striking) is extremely sloppy and really nothing more than two guys slugging it out a la bar/street fight. But how many times have we heard Joe Rogan say things like, "and his BOXING has ccome very far." And as D said, they guys who do box well typically do very well in the sport, and they're not even what the IBF/WBO/WBC/WBA would consider GOOD boxers.
I'm not going to say take a boxer and let him dominate. I do, however, think a top boxer would win most of the time (7-8/10).. I'm not stupid or ignorant or shortsighted enough to say that monsters like randleman or coleman couldn't take them down. Sure they could. But i'll put money on that task being made magnitudes more difficult by the boxer's ability to land shot after shot when they do try to come in. All boxers can box from the outside. It's what you learn first. When Chuck and Mirko keep a guy at bay and avoid the takedown, they're utilizing their better ability to outbox their opponent form the outside. A top boxer could easily do the same, if not more effectively. And like I've always said, teach them the sprawl, which, let's be honest, is a natural reaction and not as hard to "teach" as so many people claim it to be, and they'd be monsters.
I'll give you Belfort as having a considerable amateur boxing record, but he only has one pro fight(a year ago i think) and in all honesty his great boxing background has only lead to a average MMA career with some decent wins and some devastating losses. Saying Pulver has a history as a boxer is misleading as well. He grew up as a wrestler in both HS and college. I don't think he had an amateur career(i could be wrong), and his 4 pro fight oppositions combined record was 4-4. I like Jens, but he himself has been thumped in a standup game by Sakurai and others. And come one are you really going to attest Randy's victory to boxing? A snapping leg kick followed by a "sloppy" looping right is due to traditional boxing? It looked pretty similar to another sloppy puncher Arlovski when he tagged Tim. But if Tim's boxing is so good and ofcourse he is so much taller then why did he get put on his back so many times? Yall crack me up. Listening to yall all MMA fighters throw sloppy punches and have horrible techniques yet anytime someone wins a fight from a punch it was b/c of their great boxing. Pick a side guys. Either they all can't hit the broad side of a barn with punches or some of them are very precise and hard hitting fighters whose sport is different than boxing and therefore their style is different. I'm not going to argue that "boxing" is a more technical standup sport, but I think that is exactly why you percieve all of these guys as being sloppy. B/c of MMA's versatility the striking is a little bit more raw. The minute technicalities and details of boxing get lost b/c of the use of kicks, knees, elbows, takedowns, takedown defense, fighting from the clinch. Stance, movement, use of combinations and style of punching all change when the above are taken into account.Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavy D
Von, considering that almost none of the top MMA fighters in the world have gone on to box I don't think we can really say that they dont' box well. All of these guys do bag work, speed bags, mitts, spar etc. Its not like they don't train everyday in many of the same things that boxers do. I maintain that an untrained boxer in an MMA fight has only a punchers chance. A trained boxer..well really isn't a boxer. That is what MMA has taught us is that you have to be well versed. If he is cross training than he is a mixed martial artist with a background in a boxing. I think you underestimate the necessary training for Judo/Sambo/BJJ/Wrestling/kickboxing etc. I guess if you feel that boxing takes years of training to master but that you can be at least proficient in the above disciplines in a couple of months than it really isn't a suprise that you think a boxer could just walk through these guys. I say again that a sprawl is not the complete answer to takedown defense nor is it something you master in a weekend.
lastly we will have to agree to disagree on Tyson. overrated loser who doesn't even make it in my top 10 hw's. use Jermain Taylor at 170/185, RJJ at 155, Evander at 205, Vitali/Ali/Joe Louis at HW with good cross training and I might tend to agree.
im not taking sides because i kind of agree with both of you. Boxing, does need a lot of practise, i see kids coming down to the boxing club all the time thinking they are ali after about 4 months. It takes longer and, yes i would say that boxing has much crisper technique than most cage fighters/ k-1 fighters. Boxers, and just boxers, will as a general have better punches than cage fighters, because thats all they can do, they cant kick etc. so they have to make sure that they have very good hands.
On the other hand, i think that teaching tyson/a good boxer a sprawl and some ground work would make him win against cage fighters. Like boxers do, cage fighters will see that the opponent has good hands, and knows some ground work. So,unless he knows he also has as good/better hands that the opponent he will try and take it to the floor, where he feels more comfortable. Boxers and cage fighters are both good fighters.
I think if both the fighters are good, its more to do with the person, so thats why tyson would have been a great cage fighter.
Then again, tyson was known for his amazing hands, not chin. He may be devastating with 4 oz gloves, but then again, so are other fighters, so its hard to tell what might happen.
I sometimes think that if tyson had trained in other things like muay thai, and some ground work, he might end up something like Melvin Manhoef?
Van...calm down :P
You're taking this far too personally. I respect you, Von and Munky all equally highly, and you guys all bring some of the best ideas to this board. You should know better by now than to think Von and I are just boxing nuts who hate MMA. I love the sport, because I feel that Mixed Martial Artists are THE greatest fighters and more importantly, athletes, in the world, bar none. I'll never deny that. But I also don't deny that a TOP level boxer will win the majority of his fights. The whole "puncher's chance" cliche is one phrase that has always bothered me. A puncher is TRYING to knock you out. That's what he does. That's like saying a wrestler has a "GnP'ers chance" or a BJJ practitioner has a "submission artist's chance." It's true that any punch can knock someone out, but to demean their losses to chance is taking away the credit they (generally) deserve.
I don't think you're giving Belfort enough credit :P He was an olympic backup for Brazil or whoever. He was potentially one of the greatest MMAists of all time when he first burst onto the scene. But he turned into one of those wasted talents for some unknown reason. The guy was unstoppable, and then he just kind of lost it and never got it back (kind of like BJ Penn who I honestly feel is THE most talented individual p4p to ever fight EVER, and MANY people agree with me....how he loses is beyond me).
As for Jens, I agree. I guess it is a bit misleading...he has a wrestler's background, and didn't start a boxing career until more recently. But he has always fought like a boxer in the cage. So maybe he's a bad example (or on the other hand, maybe he's the best example of how a boxer should act in MMA?).
As for Couture....maybe you need to watch the fight again :P There is a lot more to boxing than punching...you know that. Did you miss the head movement? The footwork? And last time I checked, the best way to counter a MUCH larger opponent is to either get inside and work the body (and Randy did get inside) or to slip the punches and counter with a big overhand (which he did consistently).
With Tim..."put on his back so many times"? I can think of 3 fights where he's been put on his back. First was with Arlovski where he lost via submission. Second was with Arlovski where he recovered and knocked Arlovski out. Third was against Couture where he ate that first punch with a vengeance. Other than that, he's done VERY well for himself with his boxing (which is still second rate, at best).
Lesse...what else...
The whole "boxer who trains elsewhere isn't a boxer anymore" thing. I think we're just looking at it differently here. To me, Matt Hughes is a wrestler. BJ Penn is a BJJer. St Pierre is a TKD practitioner. I've always viewed a persons background as their default style. Because the sport is in its infancy, VERY few people grew up learning MMA as a whole, but rather learned one martial art and incorporated others years later. This will be, and indeed already is, changing. Kids nowadays are starting to learn "MMA" instead of TKD or BJJ or whatever, and even the TKD and BJJ, etc gyms are beginning to teach MMA with a focus on said art.
Lastly, I've never said that anybody can just pick up any art that isn't boxing. I spent a few months training BJJ and Kyokoushin Karate. I STILL get my ass kicked by those people. I don't doubt that a boxer could NEVER out grapple a BJJ practitioner, just like a BJJ will never outbox a boxer (all within reason...of course it will happen from time to time). Basically, I guess my point on the whole thing is that if a boxer's sprawl fails and he gets taken down, with the current ruleset in MMA, he still has the chance to just hold his opponent to him until they get stood up. That isn't very hard to teach at all. However, if a grapplers standup fails, he can't just hold his opponent until the ref puts them on the ground. So maybe what I'm saying is there's more leeway for a boxer to fail than a grappler to fail at the opposite art. I dunno...hard to explain it, but maybe you can catch what I'm trying to say.
And the real last thing...I don't think Tyson was a good boxer. He was an insane puncher with some okay boxing. But the thing is that he had the power necessary to REALLY make the transition to MMA striking successfully. A guy like Ali would have a MUCH tougher time in MMA than a guy like Tyson, because Ali didn't have that "one hitter quitter" that Tyson did. Ali was more of an accumulation of strikes kind of guy, while Tyson landed that ONE good one and dropped you. The more time Ali spent building up the punishment, the more time a grappler would have to take him down and put him out.
My issue is simply this...The day of a MMA fighter that is simply great in one area dominating is quickly ending. Matt Hughes is as dominant fighter that MMA has seen but lets be honest his standup skills are pretty weak. GSP has a background in karate but is also tremendous on the ground as well as a pretty outstanding takedown defense. He soundly whipped matt and barring a miracle will do it again. Hence w/o alot of cross training I think a boxer in a MMA ring against comparable talent gets completely owned. I mean honestly think of how many clinches there are per round in an average boxing match. You don't even need to get that close for a single leg takedown. Maybe Jeremy Williams will continue his evolution and we can see what a top(well sorta) level boxer with good training can do.
I've seen what happens when someone is not trained to check a kick. That being said Tyson would win the boxing match cause, well . . . he's the boxer. Any other kind of fight? Mirko by LHK immediatly following the bell.
vanchilds, the fact that u think tyson was/is overatted as a boxer shows u dont nuttin about the sweet science or tyson. jus watch his fights in his prime. he had everything. i cant be bothered at this present moment explaining why i think he was a really well rounded fighter cos i feel i will waste my time with someone who probably doesnt know how to throw a jab.
Normally I wouldn't be bothered by somone with such a poor grasp of the English language nor do I typically get goaded into posting about a boxer on an MMA forum, but since you have decided to tell me I know nothing about boxing, tyson or have any combat training I just don't think I can resist
Here is my longwinded thought on Tyson that I've posted before
man it seems like this is discussed weekly. I have very mixed feelings about Tyson's placement in history. Tyson's wins are against mostly average to decent fighters. Not that this is his fault and not that many fighters(marciano, Louis,holmes etc) don't have the same dilemma in regards to their legacy. I think quite often it wasn't who he beat but the electrifying way he did it. I often ask myself if Tyson was a defensive master who out pointed and embarrassed fighters would we feel the same way? If he was the pernell whitaker of the HW era would he have such a fan base? Tyson embodied what we as fans want in our champion. I think people quite often get wrapped up in the sheer entertainment value of Tyson. His wins over Berbick, Smith, Tucker, Ruddock, tubbs, thomas, biggs etc are impressive in that he cleaned out a division and in the manner he did them but the actual opposition is really just slightly better than average. Tyson has two great wins: the destruction of Spinks and Holmes. Although Holmes went on to several more decent wins I don't think anyone will argue that he was the same man who himself had cleaned out a division. And I don't think we will ever know why spinks gave such a sorry performance never the less the man is blown up LHW not a legit great HW. The biggest problem with grading Tyson's career is that his "prime" was so short. He didn't face any truly good HW's in their prime until late in his career. Obviously Tyson's management decisions and personal demons had a lot to do with his decline as a fighter, but this is a part of who Tyson was as a fighter. He simply didn't have the dedication and focus of other great HW's. I look at him alot like Bowe. They both had all the skills to be ATG's but couldn't capitalize. I don't judge Tyson's career after the Lewis fighter b/c it was obvious he didn't care. That being said whether he came in poorly prepared or not he was beaten soundly by douglas, holy, and Lewis. Great fighters rise to the occasion and Tyson didn't. When he met fighters who weren't intimidated, were bigger, had a decent jab and could back him up and tie him up he was definately frustrated. You dont get to count Tyson's great hand speed and head movement but not his fragile mental psyche and emotional problems. It is not only the great physical tools that make Ali/Robinson/Leonard etc ATG it is their pure dedication to being a fighter. Tyson is one of the greatest power punchers ever, and arguably the most exciting fighter ever. He will stand as an icon in boxing of what might of been, but in my personal oppinion not an all time great fighter and hugely overrated.
So Lacy I guess maybe I know a little more than you gave me credit for. If you think Tyson is the greatest then you are more than welcome to your opinion and are obviously not alone in it, but his legacy has huge holes in it. And as far as my personal experience fighting maybe you should do a little homework before deciding to bag on someone you know nothing about.
Tyson in his prime (this is late 80's- early 90's) would compete under the rules at the time which to my understanding there weren't any. Now he was 215+ solid muscle and is by far the most street hardened boxer to ever be successful. he hit hard, fast, and had a mean streak in him derived from the new york streets. It would take one hell of an athlete on his best night to take out tyson in a ruleless mma match.
would of been great to see tyson in mma but he'd be like a shark in sand. keep in mind a shark can still bite your head off even if its in sands, but the longer it goes the bigger the chance tyson loses.
that's the case with all his fights regardless of what the set up is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Julius Rain
Okay, let me end this thread. First off, Crocop was a failed boxer. Tyson in his prime was a legendary boxer. Now crocop witha couple years of cross training became a legit threat in mma. I dont see why tyson couldn't. Im not saying every boxer could cuz most will fail, but there will be crocops and even more scarier there will be a tyson.
BTW crocop was 40-5 and his last amateur boxign match was at european amateur championship when he was knocked the fuck out!!!! This was 1995