setting measurable goals for improvement of technique

Sorry this is one of my long winded, convoluted Q's but would be great if anyone can help me out.

I went to a sports psychology talk recently about goal setting.

One of the characteristics of a good goal versus a bad goal was one that is measurable.

Apparently a goal like 'to win' is too vague and will often have a negative psychological effect.

Setting measurable goals for physical conditioning is easy because you can measure speed and strength etc.

I was wondering if anyone might have a system for measuring their technical improvement they could recommend.

I thought of video taping sparring sessions but if your training partners also improve then it might not be a clear indication of how much you've improved.

So would you just video bag work and look at form without the pressure of an opponent and hope it transfers to the ring?

Anyone have any ideas?

I took a third year sport psychology class. It was interesting. We video tape the sparring sessions also. More or less so the fighter can see the flaws because it's difficult for them to vision their flaws. can't you feel your progress? It isn't necessary to have on paper. It's not a tangible achievement. It's there in the confidence you build.

Sorry to digress for a minute, but are you Canadian?

OldTownBoxing

Boxing's very hard to quanitify, other than road work and the amount of punches you can throw and dodge with in a round etc

in terms of conditioning there are ways to measure it but in terms of pure boxing technique you've got a lot to take in... opposition etc... peaks... bla bla bla

you've basically got to get a third party to watch you and give you a score, judge you... but not off the opposition, just off what they see ;)

I'll get back with you tomorrow, so happens that one of my goals is to go to sleep earlier than usual.

Here's the short and simple Sharla, Boxing is learning in pieces, it takes time to put those pieces together but all in all it your work is for a larger goal. Everything can be measured, attributes, qualities, and abilities can be taken apart piece by piece, practiced and put to use altogether.

Right now it's observation, what can you do or what you like to do. Just keep in mind that you can only do something if you have some belief to go with it.

Thanks all for the suggestions everyone -

I'm Australian - which is why some of my posting times might seem a little strange  :)

I saw a Canadian girl only a little bigger than me fight last night in the finals of the World Firefighters and Police games. I also met the USA boxing coach on the weekend and got a quick boxing lesson. However, I'm not a police officer or firefighter so I'm not allowed to compete. :( .... No chance you're the boxing coach I met is there Oldtown? Why did you think I might be Canadian?

I guess I can sometimes feel my improvement but i think I've hit a point where the things I need to improve the most are difficult for me to improve significantly enough over a short period of time to be really noticeable.

I look foreward to your suggestions too thanks Chris  :)

You're Aussie, I just had it in my mind that you are some kind of nocturnal vampire or something. Anyways are you ready Sharla? Here's rundown on making things happen and keeping it up.

Think about it, before you draw out your goals you gotta realise yourself a piece of you want. Take your topic for instance, "improvement of technique", as for some measurable goals you'll need to approach things at a more what-can-I-do-now level. Exactly put, this is divide and conquer.

Now say for instance that you're getting hit more that you should, so you start thinking you don't want to keep eating those punches. Already thoughts are going through your head of what you can do to change that. Now let's say in light of that you've set a simple goal like practicing slipping punches or w/e, now you gotta think about where you can apply it, and how you can take it deeper.

Okay, you with me so far? Let's see where we put it into action.

Shadowboxing is going to be your drawing board after drawing boards so you can practice and experience/feel these new thoughts, so you can bring them into play as you become ready to tackle bigger and better things. Now you can further take this to the bags, with your sparring buddy or where ever, just think, "the MORE you put your goals in action, the MORE it's going to happen." That's catchy isn't it?

Now the Point?

To improve at anything you must first notice it, see where you can take it (and by what means), experience it, and then master it. At that you can feel it, you're beginning to be in control.

Now if you're like a lot of girls and your mind wanders or you just find that you caught up doing something else, then do things that will keep you focused. Now figure out these little things that you can work on, repeat it to yourself, tell you're boxing pals what's on your mind, and if it helps, write it down.

You mentioned video taping, that's fine if that's what it takes for you to see you're doing but there's an easier route. Have you heard of a mirror, a big one they're great for letting yourself see what you're doing, and better than a video you can feel it right there. It nice to feel what's right it's easier to repeat how feels than it is to repeat what you saw.

Now if you're one of these serious boxing types you'll take every chance you can get to make a good idea work for you. Now you tackle getting into fighting shape, learning some new tricks, and have fun without feeling confused or like you are putting out fires all time.

All you need really good sense of humor and good hard work ethic, the rest is just building off of good ideas.

You can relax, you can go as deep as you want to go. It's a great to feel good about yourself doing things better than than most of the girls/guys out there.

Now break a nail. I'll talk to you soon.


Chris N.

Appropriate goal setting is very difficult.

Two components which can be measured and could be attributed to an improvement in technique are punch velocity and punch force. Although these aren't indicators of your overall technical improvement.

Just to add to what Adam rightly posted. A good coach is invaluable, giving direct feedback on your performances and using video analysis to point out the things you're doing right.

Setting goals related to how well you do in competition would be the most reliable indicator of overall improvement, if you achieve them. :)

Feedback period is invaluable. A mirror can give you feedback, a focus mitt/hitting bag can give you you feedback, a sparring partner/trainer can give you feedback. What I'm getting it is that sometimes you're so caught up in what you're doing that you can't appreciate how you are doing it. It's hard to notice. The problem with trainers in all sports is that many of them can tell you in detail what you are doing right or wrong but they can't make you experience what it is to do it right. On the other hand a trainer can point you in the right direction so that you can experience it for yourself.

I think in you are making a mistake and you want to correct it, you don't just take it in mind because that alone isn't enough to make a difference. Look at yourself in the mirror throw some of your techniques and take in what it feels like to do it right. There you can experience it and with that feeling it will have a bigger impact on how you execute any movement more than just the thoughts alone.

Sparring is real test, you've felt the moves you know the counters and techniques by heart, now you can sharpen your powers of observation and timing of those moves. All the moves that you can bring to the table you have to experience it in training and perfect it in sparring.

Both Adam and MD make good Points. Goals can give false hope without the imput of a good coach to anallize which is nature and what is nuture, a fine line which can bring a damageing line into the Psyhcodinamics.

I'm going to throw a good book out here and you can decide to take the next step.

"The Inner Game of Tennis" It really brings into awareness the process of learning, and why a lot of coaches can't get across. Now I see in a lot of sports not just boxing that the coach often at times a former pro sees the errors of the student and tells him all the corrections, in boxing it may sound like "You're too square... You need to pivot more off your foot... etc. etc. The Insight is great but it's only the compass, you have to experience what is right for yourself. It's not making mental notes, becuase in concentration and sparring those are often forgotten.

Habits must be formed in the experience of doing it, then you can more easily repeat those moves at will.

Proper goals do not misinform, on the contrary they put your intentions on the right way. If you can keep at a goal then you can gauge yourself from the feedback of others. SO anyways check out that book, it's eye opening to say the least.

If anybody's interested I'll pw them a copy of one this author's books. His name is Timothy Gallwey by the way.

Chris, you're not in Michigan by any chance are you?

I am, born and raised here.

Thanks for the comments everyone -

I do see the need for a sense of humour Chris! :) I guess if we couldn't all laugh at our mistakes sometimes we'd just cry!

I don't think my mind wanders a lot - I have the opposite problem really of getting stuck on details a bit too much. I guess the hope is that once I have key goals in mind and I know how to assess my progress, and what to do to progress - rather than just stewing on it - I'll be more efficient with my training time as I'll know what's most important.

I do have coaches and of course their opinion is extremely important to me but my gym is run by 4 coaches who all come in on different nights and have different ideas and teaching styles. Because of this I don't feel I can learn what each of them is trying to teach me without my own mental map of how it all fits together.

I can see your point about 'feeling' what you are trying to achieve. I can feel the difference between strong straight punches, hooks at head height and uppercuts but am still unable to 'feel' the difference between a strong and weak upper cut to the body.

I've gotta run to training now. I'll probably as you said try a few of your suggestions and see how it all works out.

Scrap - just out of curiosity what are some things in boxing you feel come under the nature heading which some people mistake for being a nurture thing - something you could alter by training?

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Originally Posted by Chris N.

I am, born and raised here.

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where 'bouts?

In holly, that's in oaland county, that's about a half an hour drive from the Joe Byrd's boxing academy in Flint.

no shit!? I'm in Canton.

No kidding, ya'know Von you're just about 45 minutes away from me. What gym do you go to?

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Originally Posted by Sharla

Scrap - just out of curiosity what are some things in boxing you feel come under the nature heading which some people mistake for being a nurture thing - something you could alter by training?

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I keep revising, thats a terrific qeustion by the way Sharla. which came first the chicken or the egg, are gennetic memory is stronger than we like to beleive, are ancesters are never given the credit they deserve in many ways I beleive we communicate with them more than we like to beleive even in nuture, trainers can direct and teach but its natural human History you are trying to shape. Learning skills are I believe Genetic, but there are cases which would put that statement on its arse. But on closer inspection I wonder, whats your take Id be interested to here it you being in the feild yuore in

I think trainers are great, they keep your head from inflating and at the same time keep focused and down to earth.

In regards to the nature/nurture idea I think many people come to be with their own kinds of thinking in regards to their heritage and where they come from. Without a doubt I believe that a good fighter can become a great fighter if he does all that they can do but like all things it depends on a lot of factors.

Let me make an analogy to better describe where I'm coming from. My dad told me in regards to school or sports a lot of people have their foot on the accelerator floored, and others to lesser degrees. In highschool I've seen some Valedictorians, and honor roll students that were going full at it, but by the time they get to college I find that even with their commitment they can't cope with the higher demands of college. I on the other hand with a people I know went at about half power in highschool, and in college we're doing fine since we're just started reaching our thresh-hold.

The same is true for boxing, strong qualities will bring out the best of you, but it still doesn't put in what you didn't already have within you. That doesn't change the fact that we can always learn new things, but as you've dealt with yourself scrap that some people don't have it in them to learn things especially when a lot of things in boxing have different levels/factors to it which doesn't make it one of the easier disciplines to master.

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Originally Posted by Sharla

Thanks for the comments everyone -

I do see the need for a sense of humour Chris! :) I guess if we couldn't all laugh at our mistakes sometimes we'd just cry!

I don't think my mind wanders a lot - I have the opposite problem really of getting stuck on details a bit too much. I guess the hope is that once I have key goals in mind and I know how to assess my progress, and what to do to progress - rather than just stewing on it - I'll be more efficient with my training time as I'll know what's most important.

I do have coaches and of course their opinion is extremely important to me but my gym is run by 4 coaches who all come in on different nights and have different ideas and teaching styles. Because of this I don't feel I can learn what each of them is trying to teach me without my own mental map of how it all fits together.

I can see your point about 'feeling' what you are trying to achieve. I can feel the difference between strong straight punches, hooks at head height and uppercuts but am still unable to 'feel' the difference between a strong and weak upper cut to the body.

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Hey Aussie girl, is that convoluted and long winded enough for ya? :) I'm not going to bury you again just going to pour some more knowledge on your butt. ;)

Just like when you're driving you have level awareness that taps into your feelings. It becomes so natural that you can already feel the twists and turns of the road in your mind, you can see your car accelerating and slowing down when necessary. A good driver will his whole route mapped out in his mind, and be flexible enough as the situation changes.

You with me so far Sharla?

Now let's tie this in with boxing, as a fighter you're on a road of some uncertainty, and you have own sorta road map in your mind on how you'll approach your opponent. All the practice and training helps things become natural so that when the time comes for you to react to your opponent you do it instinctively, just like driving when you see a detour, obstacle or an exit. The big difference is that in boxing there are many more variable that you must become aware with, your opponent, yourself and your objectives. It's more alike advanced driving (defensive, aggressive and tactical)

Now put yourself in the trainer's shoes. You're noticed that they have a bad habit or continue to make mistakes, you've gone and told them what they need to fix and may have told them everything that you think may help them. They continue to make the same mistaces despite your corrections and their determination. NO they must not have what it takes. Now go back to being ourselves, and let me tell you the other half to it. A trainer, or yourself can show you the ropes, tell you how to do it but they can not make experience it. They can make help us make adjustments as we do ourselves and the hope is that we can get a feeling of what's right.

Do you follow?

I think a good trainer take an Emanuel Steward or Ray Leonard's trainer Angelo Dundee are very keen on how they come across to a fighter. They know their fighters tendencies and attributes and work with that, they make suggestions that make the fighter come to that idea themselves.

You said your mind doesn't wander but you have an attention to details, and from what else I can gather that you work hard for it.

Now listen to me closely, what you don't want to become is a victim of overthinking, or analysing something to the point that you know it works, but you can't do it so you can feel it for yourself. What you need to do is make these thoughts natural by doing it right and coming to a realization so it's not like you have to grab out of a suggestion's-box when you need to do the right thing. Bruce Lee said it himself, "It hit's all by itself."

Now this is hotpoop! and I about buried you in it all over again in my convoluted way of thinking. But if you were to ask me of one exercise that helped you feel the techniques so that you can make them natural habits I'd say SHADOWBOXING in front of a mirror. Now you've been at it long enough to know what looks right and you got smart trainers behind you ready to pour the knowledge onto you if need be. Practice your feints, your punches counters, moves w/e and really take it in. Now when you are sparring you're not inexperienced you are more aware than ever. The sense of humor is just so you don't become to tense or die-hard that you can't take anything lightly you can't have a laugh once in a while then we can't ever have any fun. :)

I'm dead serious now, go say hi to the Sharla in the mirror and give her a 1-2 for me.


Regards,
Chris

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Originally Posted by Chris N.

No kidding, ya'know Von you're just about 45 minutes away from me. What gym do you go to?

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Dynamic on Warren Rd in Westland/Garden City. A fairly small gym that recently exploded with people because of Kronk's closure.

But that was last September when they lost their copper pipes.

I thought they were going to relocate, any news on that?

Hey maybe you two could set up a sparring session. Just an idea. :)

Maybe down the line, we'll see...

Hi Scrap - Well being in plant science the genetic inheritance of behavioural patterns is not my area but I do think with most things the final outcome is a mixture of genetics and environment. Many things will have an element each way just as we might all have physical tendencies towards particular health problems and behavioural management may or may not be enough to prevent us from actually getting them.

The difficult part is separating/ standardizing the environmental aspect from the genetic when studying it. Basically impossible unless you get a pair of identical twins to work with. You haven't ever trained identical twins by any chance? :-)

I guess I would think most things could be trained to a degree but some would be more difficult due to a lifetime of behavioural patterns shaped by what we are genetically more likely to be good at and a few purely genetic factors.

As for specific examples guess reflex action might be one thing you could train physically to a point and then it's more a matter of knowing how to make the most of the reflexes you have by improving the choice of how you respond. You might start by learning to relax and focus to increase you reflex speed and then learn to fine tune your timing and most appropriate response choice.

I do also think that certain personality traits especially those associated with addictive behaviour might be partially genetic. My own family might be an example of this - 3/4 of the kids in my family have competed at a national level in their sports (all different). Sport was our chosen outlet but for my grandmother it was alcohol, for my grandfather it was work and I could go on listing obsessive bahaviours of my family members. It could work out well or badly depending on our choices but we definately have an unusually obsessive family. I have always been involved in sport for myself - not anyone else - so I do think it's a genetic compulsion - we just can't leave it alone. We've all suffered different training induced injuries aswell since we are not good at stopping when we're told!

So basically I'd say there's some genetic component to most things although environmental factors aswell as deliberate psychological tactics such as positive thought etc can play a big part. Would you agree with that Scrap?

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Originally Posted by Chris N.

But that was last September when they lost their copper pipes.

I thought they were going to relocate, any news on that?

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nah, haven't really been following what's going on. All I know for sure is that (apparently, ie what I've been told) is that all these new guys, who are actually pretty good boxers, came fmor there. If you know anything about kronk you know it's a dump. She weren't in good shape. lol.

Yeah, what a shame.

Anyways how's your gym? The one I'm going to "Joe Byrd's" in Flint, it's small but it has one ring (14'), a few hitting bags, and speedbag. There's not much space, but it makes up for it with the people on hand. Also for 5 bucks a month you can't go wrong. I'll end up paying more in gas than the dues. ;D

Also thanks for your input again Chris - you explain things the same way I think - I'm not good at writing short letters - so it works well for me :)

Thanks for taking the time to write all that - I promise to bond with the gym mirror a little more and since we have a pretty good set up at our gym for that I have no excuse not to :)

Sharla great post I agree, its something close to my heart it facinates me the older I get theres so many equations. You play the hand your dealt, but with time in an enviroment given there is change, what evolves is open for judgement long term, cc.

One more thing that I would like to add especially since you've also taken an interest in Von's pulley machine.

All boxing training (sparring, shadowboxing, and bagwork) has to be done before any supplementary training that trains especially in particularly the upper body. Also make sure you don't do the same workout everyday, or your muscles won't be able to recuperate. You don't want to go into a sparring session with your muscles already half tired. That goes the same for roadwork. I know a lot of fella's that like to do their running in the morning, that's fine as long as you don't have any sparring that's coming up later in the day.

Ha, this time I didn't bury you, just wanted to add a little cherry on the top.

:) Now shoo we gave you the full 101, now go punch a mirror or something.

So you think a morning workout is not good on the same day as a hard sparring session - any type of morning workout or just hard sessions?

Many eons ago before I injured myself (about 6 months ago) I would often use my lunch hour to fit in extra training aswell as the mornings and go to boxing at night. I now know that was a little stupid although I feel lazy if I only train once a day - especially since I can't always predict whether or not a boxing training is going to be hard and I don't finish early enough to run afterwards.

My brother trained as a rower for the Australian Institute of Sport and I have some vague memory that they had some way of testing how long he took to peak after stopping training to taper for competition. I'm not sure if there is a recognized approach to test how long you take to recover from a work out. Aerobically I guess it'd just be the time taken for your heart rate to return to resting but as for your anaerobic system I have no idea. Have you heard of anything?

What youre talking about isnt true get back to you of to the gym.

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Originally Posted by Sharla

So you think a morning workout is not good on the same day as a hard sparring session - any type of morning workout or just hard sessions?

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It's fine to work out in the morning, I'm just saying that do not want to start out sparring with your body fatigued. Listen to your body, you should know what it takes to make you tired. greysnotsoold said the same thing in regards to overtraining.

That's my point. Now go to the gym do your stuff. Just don't work too hard, and when it comes to being at peak condition make sure you are fresh the day of the fight, and that you are not already worn out before you have a sparring match.

Yes I think I've learnt the hard way not to overtrain - now I don't spend that many hours training I'm not sure how it worked in the first place - not good for my study that's for sure!

And I know what it's like. Plus it doesn't help your friends have any more fun when you're burned out.

There's much more to aerobic recovery than getting your hr back to normal - use your noodle on that one. :)

As for not doing supplementary training before sparring etc. it depends on what you're trying to achieve from the session.

There's much more to aerobic recovery than getting your hr back to normal - use your noodle on that one. :)

As for not doing supplementary training before sparring etc. it depends on what you're trying to achieve from the session.

Don't know what happened there - two posts for the price of one.

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Originally Posted by Chris N.

One more thing that I would like to add especially since you've also taken an interest in Von's pulley machine.

All boxing training (sparring, shadowboxing, and bagwork) has to be done before any supplementary training that trains especially in particularly the upper body.

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absolutely right. I make a point of hitting the bag right after i use the thing so I don't "forget" how to punch for real, or lose speed. ie, to re-gain that feel. It's always my jab that feels the weirdest after I work it on the machine. But I know for a fact it's helped strengthen it...

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Originally Posted by Von Milash

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Originally Posted by Chris N.

One more thing that I would like to add especially since you've also taken an interest in Von's pulley machine.

All boxing training (sparring, shadowboxing, and bagwork) has to be done before any supplementary training that trains especially in particularly the upper body.

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absolutely right. I make a point of hitting the bag right after i use the thing so I don't "forget" how to punch for real, or lose speed. ie, to re-gain that feel. It's always my jab that feels the weirdest after I work it on the machine. But I know for a fact it's helped strengthen it...

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One of you said before and the other said after and yet there was agreement. ???

lol, i noticed that as i wrote it. the message is clear.... everything is supplementary to the real thing.