how to excute the shoulder roll to a good standard any ideas??

mayweather is brilliant at doing this, i can allways remember when he fought ndou and he was lying on the ropes doing it and ndou missed every shot

A Little way you could try is get some knee pads and shadow box on your knees moving the knees youll find it incorparates the shoulders a lot more to move

In my opinion if you were to start trying it out i would have you only try it if you were sparring with newbies or lads with less talent then you..

Also im not sure that Pbf is the one you want to be watching if your looking to study the shoulder roll defence and the whole body movement sort of defence..

Firstly if would prefer to study on fighters like hopkins and toney.. Mainly since they are more prominant with the style and floyd does it from time to time..Looks lovely against ndou granted..But floyd is twice the fighter phillip was.. and he has all the skills tied in with it..

If you could possibly find fights from ezzard charles, jersey joe walcott, archie moore.. Then thats where the style really comes from and is the best way to really study it and try it yourself during light sparring and get a feel for it .. Just as bhop and toney have learnt from the old school fighters and put theyr own spin on it.. you cannot learn someone else's style to textbook but incorporate it into what works best for you..

Also just for the sake of throwing it out there.. Member just roll mainly the left shoulder as its easyer to roll and lean away from the right hand.. and keep your right glove up by your chin.. since its important to guard from the left hand..

Hope this is of some help
Peace

Floyd only uses it when boxers try to throw hooks and flurries...he is far better than Toney with the shoulder roll.

I wouldnt recommend you really trying to add it into your fight game if you are truely serious...because it is pretty tricky.You have to have great reflexes...if not,your gonna get hit with hooks and any other body shots.It is also kind of difficult to throw punches from this position.

Tito, Olympian, very good points by you both probably the best exponent of it was Burley cc to you both

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Originally Posted by Olympian904

Floyd only uses it when boxers try to throw hooks and flurries...he is far better than Toney with the shoulder roll.

I wouldnt recommend you really trying to add it into your fight game if you are truely serious...because it is pretty tricky.You have to have great reflexes...if not,your gonna get hit with hooks and any other body shots.It is also kind of difficult to throw punches from this position.

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:o :o :o

Floyd is better then toney with the shoulder roll!!>??

Weerrttt?... Maybe better then a heavyweight fat toney.. But middle/supermiddleweight toney is way better with the old school shoulder roll defence then floyd ..Floyd seldom uses it anyway..And seldom needs to use it.. the only times he has really depended on it is when he has felt comfortable in a bout and doesnt feel in danger of getting hit..I.e Ndou, gatti ( Mainly foot movement anyway) and corley when he fancied a shoulder to shoulder scrap..

Toney has always used the old school defence and when hes fit is supreme with it..

Backatcha scrap

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Originally Posted by ThePlatinumBoy

mayweather is brilliant at doing this, i can allways remember when he fought ndou and he was lying on the ropes doing it and ndou missed every shot

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Hey again Platinum, how's it going?

That was a good show for Floyd, but I think you're missing real brilliance of it. Floyd for granted has a good style, and the speed and reflexes that make it look good. But underneath that I don't think everyone fails to understand what was going on his eyes.

Thanks on part to experience and training background Floyd has an extrasense when it comes from reading into a guy's rhythem. He also adjusts his pace and timing according to what his opponent's up to. Now think back into what happened in round 5 of that fight. You can see Ndou still was going at it and wasn't about to go down Floyd wasn't about to waste an ounce of energy on the guy. He took a breather while his opponent was going into his reserves.

Now this is two keen observations, this shows that Floyd knows when to lay back and when to push the action, the second was the thing of beauty that you saw. Floyd's sense of rhythem and timing was able to stand in the middle of the ring so Ndou would waste his energy, he'd also do it on the ropes or anywhere he was being pressured. HBO's commentators most of the time can't grasp what was going on. While Ndou looked active when throwing ineffective flurries, this is what we call "punching yourself out"

Now let's break down Floyd's rhythem, particularyly the rhythem in which he rolls his shoulders. It's like the flow in Hip-Hop music. At his best he is always moving, improvising like a good musician, he is able to set up his shots often when his opponent is flailing away. Floyd alternates his shoulder rolls, slips/bobbing-and-weaving with his opponent's punches. If you see what I'm starting to see is almost like seeing the different hues in a rainbow, or the relationships in music. There's a rhythem for counterpunching and setting a guy up, a rhythem for defense and avoiding punches, and their is punch rhythem.

I know this is pretty deep, you still with me?


Anyways I'm going to into the technical aspects of the shoulder roll. You can watch fights by James Toney, The Mayweather Clan, and many of the old timers.

This used to be a universal move and started to materialise into a stance until the consensus was people holding their hands in earmuff positions.

The shoulder can done with or without a low left lead. A low left lead can invite right hands which can good thing. Your shoulder roll can block it but better yet it can parry a right hand to the side in which follow up with a right uppercut to the solar plexus or any other possible counters.

There's a few things that you have to keep in mind. Don't lower you left hand unless you are aware of right hands, and that you are ready to counter. Also do not stick your chin out or your head will get ripped off.

Ready? Good.

Now your right hand is your point guard it's going to protect you left hands, particulary the left hook and any flailing/swinging punches.

The shoulder roll, or low left lead can ammount to better awareness if it's concepts and ideas are internalised. By twisting left or right you can block, parry, slip most of their punches.

Experience it, practice it, and master it. Shadowboxing and sparring is one of the best ways of learning these kind of techniques. Also check out any footage of the old timers such as Archie Moore, and some of today's fighters as I mentioned earlier. Man I was all over place on this one, it really piked my interent, if you need me to go over any of the ideas I'll go over it again.

thats orsume intrestin reads from all you guys, good input i must say from chris n

Good post Chris cc. Boxing is about having the answers to movement. What I like about Mayweather is the technique of the shoulders moving the feet, Hes always setting things up.

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Originally Posted by Tito_BHB

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Originally Posted by Olympian904

Floyd only uses it when boxers try to throw hooks and flurries...he is far better than Toney with the shoulder roll.

I wouldnt recommend you really trying to add it into your fight game if you are truely serious...because it is pretty tricky.You have to have great reflexes...if not,your gonna get hit with hooks and any other body shots.It is also kind of difficult to throw punches from this position.

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:o :o :o

Floyd is better then toney with the shoulder roll!!>??

Weerrttt?... Maybe better then a heavyweight fat toney.. But middle/supermiddleweight toney is way better with the old school shoulder roll defence then floyd ..Floyd seldom uses it anyway..And seldom needs to use it.. the only times he has really depended on it is when he has felt comfortable in a bout and doesnt feel in danger of getting hit..I.e Ndou, gatti ( Mainly foot movement anyway) and corley when he fancied a shoulder to shoulder scrap..

Toney has always used the old school defence and when hes fit is supreme with it..

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Count punches landed on Floyd compared to those landed on Toney....its not even close.Its a DEFENSIVE tactic...so of course Floyd doesnt need it every round.He can rely on his ring awareness and footwork.The shoulder parry has been in the Mayweather family a while...they have almost mastered it.Who taught it to Toney?lol

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Originally Posted by Scrap

A Little way you could try is get some knee pads and shadow box on your knees moving the knees youll find it incorparates the shoulders a lot more to move

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top shelf information here cc in 24 O0

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Originally Posted by Olympian904

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Originally Posted by Tito_BHB

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Originally Posted by Olympian904

Floyd only uses it when boxers try to throw hooks and flurries...he is far better than Toney with the shoulder roll.

I wouldnt recommend you really trying to add it into your fight game if you are truely serious...because it is pretty tricky.You have to have great reflexes...if not,your gonna get hit with hooks and any other body shots.It is also kind of difficult to throw punches from this position.

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:o :o :o

Floyd is better then toney with the shoulder roll!!>??

Weerrttt?... Maybe better then a heavyweight fat toney.. But middle/supermiddleweight toney is way better with the old school shoulder roll defence then floyd ..Floyd seldom uses it anyway..And seldom needs to use it.. the only times he has really depended on it is when he has felt comfortable in a bout and doesnt feel in danger of getting hit..I.e Ndou, gatti ( Mainly foot movement anyway) and corley when he fancied a shoulder to shoulder scrap..

Toney has always used the old school defence and when hes fit is supreme with it..

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Count punches landed on Floyd compared to those landed on Toney....its not even close.Its a DEFENSIVE tactic...so of course Floyd doesnt need it every round.He can rely on his ring awareness and footwork.The shoulder parry has been in the Mayweather family a while...they have almost mastered it.Who taught it to Toney?lol

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Im not entirely certain that its the fact that floyd doesnt need to use it every round..
I dont feel he uses it in even every fight ..To take a round or so off..
He only uses it against certain opponents..His thing is pot shotting and fast and great feet..

Im also not entirely sure on who james' trainer was at the time..
But hes a huge fan of all the old school fighters and learnt from continuously watching tapes of moore, charles, walcott and putting it to practice..

The old fighters are the only fighters ive ever heard toney speak of in a nice manner or actually admit he likes them or respects them..

When it comes to todays or most other past fighters all you get from him is i dont respect nobody, theyr all ducking me ..lol
James toney's favourite fighter is james toney :P

Small talk aside though..Its a beautiful style no doubt

It doesn't have to a style, if you look at the films of the old timers you'll see they only use it where they see fit. This is one should be worked into shadowboxing and sparring so it can be brought into a fight without thinking about it.

I should also add that you need to become more aware of angles, the range, and your stance. In Floyd's style his body is turned slightly to his right which makes himself a slightly more narrow target, unless of course he's trying to draw in his opponent. Usually he keeps his right hand higher and close to his face, and raises his left shoulder when he feels the need.

Make sure you are balanced, that you are never square, and your chin is tucked. Shadowboxing in the mirror will certainly help because not only can you see what you're doing right, you can keep it right while getting the feeling down. After practicing a move like the shoulder-roll in shadowboxing you're ready to establish the timing, and feeling in relationship with your opponent.

If you need to look back on something you can always go back to the footage. It's good to watch it in slow-motion and real-time to see how they get it going.

I should also bring to attention that with anything technique there is natural counters that you should plan ahead for. As with relationships in the ring you have to become aware of the range and angles. Sometimes it's more natural most folks to go with one hand than it is to shift and throw the other. Getting back to the rhythm in rolling you should begin to notice that most opponents alternate their punches in predictable ways. You'll find it's common for an opponent to only occasionally double up with his punches especially in the middle of a flurry. Like Floyd you have to become conscious of this punching rhythm so that you can adjust the direction of your shoulder rolls, or move accordingly.

This goes into good timing and becoming aware of each one of your opponent's rhythms. Sometimes you can see that in a fight after several rounds one guy figures out the other's rhythm and starts getting there's going. You can upset their rhythm by making yours hard to adjust (e.g. broken rhythm) or by quickening the pace/tempo with pressure.

Now I seen a masterful boxer like Archie Moore with all the experience and technical knowledge in the world get beat by Rocky Marciano based on rhythm and other factors that go hand in hand. In Floyd's fight with Ndou, it wasn't that Ndou was slow, it's because Floyd made him look slow.

It's the rhythm has can be influenced by a lot of movements, changes of speed, direction, side-stepping, angles, weaving, rocking, backpedaling, fighting, slipping punches, spinning, the list could go on and on.

Rhythm is part of the dynamic bigger picture that forms the course and nature of the fight, it's constantly ebbing, changing flows, and with many levels to it like a jigsaw puzzle on top of jigsaw puzzles.

The part that will make you or anyone a great fighter is to FEEL, to experience these movements so that you can internalize it. It's the insights that are gained in such experiences that makes masters of some, while those who can not see nor feel it are left in the darkness.

Whew, I really got juiced up on this one. I mean the clock just stopped for me. ;D

I hope this helps, because I got a lot out of this. I can see how a lot of trainers get a kick out of teaching this stuff, because I'm as much learning as I am dishing it out. It's been real a pleasure. :)

All good Chris :)

Since you're happy to comment on this topic maybe I can throw a basic question in here and somewhat lower the bar of basic knowledge required to read this thread.

What's the risk of getting a dead arm using the shoulder roll defensively?

Also am I correct in understanding from all this that a few practiced individuals would mostly use it when in fighting or on the ropes and at times when movement is not so easy - or did I misinterpret that?

What do you mean by a dead arm? Are you asking what are the risks of getting your arm hurt while doing the shoulder roll? There isn't any more risk than anything else, the shoulder roll does not require a low left lead. It would be funny though if someone did actually target the shoulder or bicep, I guess if my opponent was attacking mine that I could use it as bait, then I can counter him. :D

The shoulder roll can be done anywhere in the ring, I've seen many boxers do this including good women boxers. Freddy Roach teaches it, as well as a lot of old-school trainers. I posted a couple of his videos, you can find it in the file share section. Look it up, it under Fitness and Instructional Videos/ Freddie Roaches Advanced Techniques. He shows one good example of the low left lead, and using the shoulder roll to deflect a right hand and countering with a right hook to the solar plexus. And a couple other good counters too that are worth checking out.

Its a pretty tricky to master sharla...
1.Its hard to be on the offense unless you really know what your doing.
2.If your reflexes arent good...you'll most likely get hit hard with hooks.
3.It involves a lot of angles...and if you dont understand it..you'll continue to throw wide looping punches.

I never knew freddie roach taught it...IMO.Its pointless coming from him b/c his career wasnt good...and he didnt even use it.I personally think that he is overrated as a trainer...sorry to get off of the subject.

:lol: Where are you coming from? It's obvious that you have no idea what you're talking about.

Olympian904... Have you heard of Eddy Futch? That's the guy that shown the low lead, shoulder roll and counter to Roach. It's not rocket science, and if you don't get it, then don't act like you know something.

the shoulder roll aint for beginners. It's for the seasoned fighter.

Stick with basics, kid. 8)

thats absolutely true about fighters having rhythms or essences to them. Great fighters are able to accurately read their opponent's 'essence' and then react with the appropriate tactic. This is a product of the brain and can only be strengthened or exercised by lots of sparring and tape watching; in other words experience. This goes back to the subject of the shoulder roll in that the young james toney had that same sixth sense Chris was talking about. The shoulder roll appears dangerous and risky but to someone with the ability see into their opponent its actually quite safe. You never could see Toney or say mike mcallum getting hit alot because they knew what their opponent was trying to do to them as though they were in control of their opponents without them knowing they were. This ties into the basic foundations of what I've gathered from boxing over the years in that your opponent can only do what you allow him to do.

But for the shoulder roll always remember that you must roll away whilst doing it so as to 1. take steam off of the punch and 2. gain leverage to start up your counter right hook/uppercut. This counter is a necessary thing to learn if you want to learn the shoulder roll as they go hand in hand since he is exposed upon throwing the right.

In this way the shoulder roll is very unique in boxing in that its is technically a block but really preformed more like a slip.

Nice to see you around Thomas. :)

Good fighter's have that ability or perception or whatever you want to call it to feel the rhythm. If you can feel a guy's rythem, you can break it up, you can set it up, or at least you'll be more aware of what he's going to throw. This sounds almost esoteric but the ability comes from the realization of it when you see it happening, and the internalization of it though constant drilling and sparring.

Looking at Floyd's stance when it's turned to his right, his left shoulder usually rolls up high up high to block/deflect punches and sometimes he'll use his left arm to deflect them as well. That depends on the angle of the punch. Shots to the left side of his body are usually deflected upward and/or infront of him. When Mayweather's body is turned to the left his hight hand is held high with its elbow tucked in, so that these shots get blocked also, a few well placed shots will can get in, but at this point Floyd is rolling after the first punch connects.

I occasionally see the shoulder roll in use with the exception of fighters of James Toney and the like. I'm surprised a lot of trainers dismiss it when it has been working countless times before.

As a reminder to beginners, remember to keep your chin tucked behind your shoulder when performing the roll, if you don't you're defeating the purpose and defense of it. If your head sticks out your opponents will gladly oblige and hang a right hand on it.

of course, for beginners, nothing beats having two dukes up. 8)

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Originally Posted by Von Milash

of course, for beginners, nothing beats having two dukes up. 8)

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You're right there, it's not perfect but it's good insurrance. I see fighters that drop their left for no reason and Boom-- what do ya know they eat a big right hand.

When you start paying close attention to what you are doing and the reasons why then you can experiment with new things that seem to break the rules. If you know what to expect, and what to do then you can prepare for it. Say you drop your left hand, or maybe your right hand, if you know what you are doing then you can provoke certain punches that you can counter them. That is a big part of what a lot of good fighters do, you may think you see an opening and when you go for it you can't see why you're getting hit. Of course when you put two really good fighters together and one of them trys to draw the other in with a gap in his defense and the other opponent is going to see how they can set him up using that.

Also I think reading you opponent's rhythm and other details is as close to mind reading as you're going to get.

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Originally Posted by Chris N.

Nice to see you around Thomas. :)

Good fighter's have that ability or perception or whatever you want to call it to feel the rhythm. If you can feel a guy's rythem, you can break it up, you can set it up, or at least you'll be more aware of what he's going to throw. This sounds almost esoteric but the ability comes from the realization of it when you see it happening, and the internalization of it though constant drilling and sparring.

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Thats right. In basketball this sort of thing is called court vision. They say Larry Bird had incredible court vision and that he could visualize and see things on the court that other people simply couldn't. You can test (and this extends to everybody here) to see whether or not you have this ability by seeing if you can predict every punch a fighter throws before he throws it. This includes not only watching to see how he tips off his punches but in understanding what he is actually trying to do and accomplish at the strategic level. The second part there is what separates the plain old athlete from the larry birds of the world.

You know what? I was thinking about that too. This perception is hard to teach, it's really up to the fighter to put it together on his own. I'm just beginning to realize these kind of "modalities" when I really try to get into another fighters head.

I was thinking about the rhythm in different activities. You can find the sense that we're describing in football, basketball, dances, and other sports and activities. Not just perception but also the timing which makes a great fighter smooth in all his shifts and moves.

You've said in your posts a long while back that at their best fighter's body and mind are seemingly separate. The sense of being in the zone where you without analysing or thinking about it start to visualise the negotiation of rhythms, and movements. Now time and movement seems to be suspended in slow motion, and on a conscious level the person begins to shift the 'paths of possibilities' that they see before them.

Of course a lot of preparation is involved. Like Eisenhower said it's not so much importance of the plan as it is the process of planning. Insight is attained in which as much possibilities can be be understood and worked out, after which the mind and body have been trained to respond by the dynamic configurations as they develop in real time. This is where the connection to chess seems to come out. Though such dedicated research and the initial recognition of this flow The masterful boxer will be able how to prepare and train oneself in the first place.

Yeah I get your point now.

Guess what? The first time that he tried to do the shoulder roll he got nailed with a huge right. ;D Eddy Futch corrected it the best he could. Roach was an ok fighter no contender or world beater though, but a few of the things he teaches are worth knowing.

I think one of the better trainers out there is Emanual Steward he only gives advice that he knows his fighter's will listen too. But I can't complain with the way Roach is training Pacquiao. Can you see Pacquiao doing the things that Mayweather is doing? Pacquiao has enough attributes and enough skill that he can upset a skilled boxer's rhythem without really outboxing the guy. It's like when Rocky Marciano fought guy's like Archie Moore.

The only guy that can give Pacquiao a lot of trouble is Marquez, and that's a fight we're all looking forward too.

I agree with you 100%