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smoking joe... frazier
only ever lost to foreman and ali, and i think only ever knocked down by foreman and bonavena?
how would joe of done vs other greats
holmes
liston
rocky m
lewis
tyson
dempsy
louis
his record may not be that impressive ( 32-4) i think
but still i think he does deserve to be in peoples top ten heavys of all time
opinons?
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Re: smoking joe... frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by oakleyno1
only ever lost to foreman and ali, and i think only ever knocked down by foreman?
how would joe of done vs other greats
holmes
liston
rocky m
lewis
tyson
dempsy
louis
his record may not be that impressive ( 32-4) i think
but still i think he does deserve to be in peoples top ten heavys of all time
opinons?
Holmes out points Frazier with that famous jab.
Liston vs Frazier would be slugfest but Frazier extra heart and will would be factor stopping Liston in 10.
Rocky is stopped on cuts Frazier's bobbing and weaving style too much for Rocky.
Lewis should outpoint Frazier unless Frazier gets lucky punch would very well could happen.
Tyson would floor Frazier in early going but once he warms up he takes Tyson's punches and outguts Tyson to stop him in 9th or 10th.
Dempsey too small for Fraizer and Fraizer's bobbing and weaving style too much and he stops Dempsey on his feet in 10th.
Louis's chin wasn't that great and he is too flatfooted which wouldn't be good vs someone like Frazier i think Frazier could ko him in middle rounds.
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Re: smoking joe... frazier
Joe in his prime was incredible fighter
He ran in to the problem most short heaveyweights run in to,he got old real fast.
Shorter fighters need their legs,and thats the first thing to go,they need to be able to explode in.Once the explosion's gone,so are they.
Tyson had the same issue,compounded by the fact that he refused to learn how to fight any different then he ever did,once some fighters proved they could take his best punch,the jig was up.
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Re: smoking joe... frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
Quote:
Originally Posted by oakleyno1
only ever lost to foreman and ali, and i think only ever knocked down by foreman?
how would joe of done vs other greats
holmes
liston
rocky m
lewis
tyson
dempsy
louis
his record may not be that impressive ( 32-4) i think
but still i think he does deserve to be in peoples top ten heavys of all time
opinons?
Holmes out points Frazier with that famous jab.
Liston vs Frazier would be slugfest but Frazier extra heart and will would be factor stopping Liston in 10.
Rocky is stopped on cuts Frazier's bobbing and weaving style too much for Rocky.
Lewis should outpoint Frazier unless Frazier gets lucky punch would very well could happen.
Tyson would floor Frazier in early going but once he warms up he takes Tyson's punches and outguts Tyson to stop him in 9th or 10th.
Dempsey too small for Fraizer and Fraizer's bobbing and weaving style too much and he stops Dempsey on his feet in 10th.
Louis's chin wasn't that great and he is too flatfooted which wouldn't be good vs someone like Frazier i think Frazier could ko him in middle rounds.
And I agree on Holmes,absolutely worst matchup for Frazier,he would have just peppered him with that stinging jab all night
On Tyson though,Joe did have a hell of a chin,with both of them being undersized,I think Joe's ability to outhink,and out bob would have driven the easily frustrated Tyson nuts
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Re: smoking joe... frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
Quote:
Originally Posted by oakleyno1
only ever lost to foreman and ali, and i think only ever knocked down by foreman?
how would joe of done vs other greats
holmes
liston
rocky m
lewis
tyson
dempsy
louis
his record may not be that impressive ( 32-4) i think
but still i think he does deserve to be in peoples top ten heavys of all time
opinons?
Holmes out points Frazier with that famous jab.
Liston vs Frazier would be slugfest but Frazier extra heart and will would be factor stopping Liston in 10.
Rocky is stopped on cuts Frazier's bobbing and weaving style too much for Rocky.
Lewis should outpoint Frazier unless Frazier gets lucky punch would very well could happen.
Tyson would floor Frazier in early going but once he warms up he takes Tyson's punches and outguts Tyson to stop him in 9th or 10th.
Dempsey too small for Fraizer and Fraizer's bobbing and weaving style too much and he stops Dempsey on his feet in 10th.
Louis's chin wasn't that great and he is too flatfooted which wouldn't be good vs someone like Frazier i think Frazier could ko him in middle rounds.
And I agree on Holmes,absolutely worst matchup for Frazier,he would have just peppered him with that stinging jab all night
On Tyson though,Joe did have a hell of a chin,with both of them being undersized,I think Joe's ability to outhink,and out bob would have driven the easily frustrated Tyson nuts
Good statement have your first :coolclick: on me to welcome you to forum mate.
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Re: smoking joe... frazier
Thank ya kindly Ice
Formal introduction,Im Feur Frie's trainer,she's talked this board up so much,I thought I might as well join,as the other Boxing Forumn I post on often resembles a ghost town.
Much better over here
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Re: smoking joe... frazier
I have him somewhere in my top 10 for sure.
But I think a taller guy with a good jab like Holmes or Lewis would outpoint him.
I also think a prime Mike Tyson, with his explosive power, would probably stop him. Not saying that Tyson was a better fighter, just saying that I think he is a bad matchup for Joe.
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Re: smoking joe... frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
Quote:
Originally Posted by oakleyno1
only ever lost to foreman and ali, and i think only ever knocked down by foreman?
how would joe of done vs other greats
holmes
liston
rocky m
lewis
tyson
dempsy
louis
his record may not be that impressive ( 32-4) i think
but still i think he does deserve to be in peoples top ten heavys of all time
opinons?
Holmes out points Frazier with that famous jab.
Liston vs Frazier would be slugfest but Frazier extra heart and will would be factor stopping Liston in 10.
Rocky is stopped on cuts Frazier's bobbing and weaving style too much for Rocky.
Lewis should outpoint Frazier unless Frazier gets lucky punch would very well could happen.
Tyson would floor Frazier in early going but once he warms up he takes Tyson's punches and outguts Tyson to stop him in 9th or 10th.
Dempsey too small for Fraizer and Fraizer's bobbing and weaving style too much and he stops Dempsey on his feet in 10th.
Louis's chin wasn't that great and he is too flatfooted which wouldn't be good vs someone like Frazier i think Frazier could ko him in middle rounds.
Tyson was at least 2x faster and more Explosive in terms of Combo punching than Foreman... Tysons uppercut was on par with Foremans if not better Tyson also had great side to side head movement and an exteremely underrated chin, Joe got slaughtered by Foreman, what makes you think he can with stand Tysons early fury.. Especially when Joe would take 3 to give 1.. You couldnt do that against early Tyson he was way to fast and accurate especially with Joe standing infront of him like that
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Re: smoking joe... frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by JT Rock
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
Quote:
Originally Posted by oakleyno1
only ever lost to foreman and ali, and i think only ever knocked down by foreman?
how would joe of done vs other greats
holmes
liston
rocky m
lewis
tyson
dempsy
louis
his record may not be that impressive ( 32-4) i think
but still i think he does deserve to be in peoples top ten heavys of all time
opinons?
Holmes out points Frazier with that famous jab.
Liston vs Frazier would be slugfest but Frazier extra heart and will would be factor stopping Liston in 10.
Rocky is stopped on cuts Frazier's bobbing and weaving style too much for Rocky.
Lewis should outpoint Frazier unless Frazier gets lucky punch would very well could happen.
Tyson would floor Frazier in early going but once he warms up he takes Tyson's punches and outguts Tyson to stop him in 9th or 10th.
Dempsey too small for Fraizer and Fraizer's bobbing and weaving style too much and he stops Dempsey on his feet in 10th.
Louis's chin wasn't that great and he is too flatfooted which wouldn't be good vs someone like Frazier i think Frazier could ko him in middle rounds.
Tyson was at least 2x faster and more Explosive in terms of Combo punching than Foreman... Tysons uppercut was on par with Foremans if not better Tyson also had great side to side head movement and an exteremely underrated chin, Joe got slaughtered by Foreman, what makes you think he can with stand Tysons early fury.. Especially when Joe would take 3 to give 1.. You couldnt do that against early Tyson he was way to fast and accurate especially with Joe standing infront of him like that
Tyson was a straight line attack fighter,who made up for his lack of size by charging in.
That is not the way to beat Frazier,Foreman got him because of superior size and reach,Joe just couldnt get in on him.
But both Chuvallo,and Mathis tried to fight Frazier the way Tyson would
TKO in the 11,TKO in the 4th
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Re: smoking joe... frazier
joe got wobbled by fighters like manuel ramos and jerry quarry...Imo these fighters couldn't touch Tyson in his prime. Sorry but Tyson is bigger, stronger, faster and imo has the better chin.
Tyson would knock him out hands down
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Re: smoking joe... frazier
Tyson
5'11
Weight 224 pounds
Reach 72
Frazier
5' 11-1/2"
Weight: 205 pounds
Reach: 73-1/2"
Although Frazier was a 1/2 taller and 1in and 1/2 reach better he would be at a severe disadvantage handspeed wise and outweighed by almost 20lbs and Prime Tyson was all solid muscle.. He was faster, stronger and more explosive than Frazier... Tyson would manhandle and bully Frazier... Again like mentioned Frazier would take 3 punches to give 1 and Tyson would just bury him in Foreman like fashion.
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Re: smoking joe... frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_One77
joe got wobbled by fighters like manuel ramos and jerry quarry...Imo these fighters couldn't touch Tyson in his prime. Sorry but Tyson is bigger, stronger, faster and imo has the better chin.
Tyson would knock him out hands down
Two words
Buster Douglas
Every time Tyson got pushed past the first couple of rounds hed get frustrated,and would take risks.
Compare the fighters of the era's,sorry,Frank Bruno was no Muhamed Ali
Also Cus massaged his fights,most of the guys Tyson fought were scrubs.
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Re: smoking joe... frazier
Buster Douglas is nothing like Frazier, two completly different styles.....Tyson would not have a difficult time hitting Frazier because he would be toe to toe all night long.
I dont care how much heart Joe Frazier had, his chin was always shaky and no heart or grit will ever compensate for that. He would ge KO'd
just my opinion
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Re: smoking joe... frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_One77
Buster Douglas is nothing like Frazier, two completly different styles.....Tyson would not have a difficult time hitting Frazier because he would be toe to toe all night long.
I dont care how much heart Joe Frazier had, his chin was always shaky and no heart or grit will ever compensate for that. He would ge KO'd
just my opinion
Frazer was very good at making other fighters,fight his fight
He got the Gold Medal and the championship for a reason.
Once Tyson got exposed,he was well and truly exposed.
He couldnt beat a weak hitting Holyfield,whose never been much more then a blown up cruiser weight.
Go back and watch most of Tysons "great fights"
Now check the name of the opponent
Not exactly George Foreman,or Ali,or even Ernie Shavers for that matter
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Re: smoking joe... frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_One77
Buster Douglas is nothing like Frazier, two completly different styles.....Tyson would not have a difficult time hitting Frazier because he would be toe to toe all night long.
I dont care how much heart Joe Frazier had, his chin was always shaky and no heart or grit will ever compensate for that. He would ge KO'd
just my opinion
Frazer was very good at making other fighters,fight his fight
He got the Gold Medal and the championship for a reason.
Once Tyson got exposed,he was well and truly exposed.
He couldnt beat a weak hitting Holyfield,whose never been much more then a blown up cruiser weight.Go back and watch most of Tysons "great fights"
Now check the name of the opponent
Not exactly George Foreman,or Ali,or even
Earnie Shavers for that matter
There went your credibility dude.... Holyfield is a great at both Cruiser and Heavy. Shavers always came up short but I'll have to agree to disagree with you... ;)
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Re: smoking joe... frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
Quote:
Originally Posted by oakleyno1
only ever lost to foreman and ali, and i think only ever knocked down by foreman?
how would joe of done vs other greats
holmes
liston
rocky m
lewis
tyson
dempsy
louis
his record may not be that impressive ( 32-4) i think
but still i think he does deserve to be in peoples top ten heavys of all time
opinons?
Holmes out points Frazier with that famous jab.
Liston vs Frazier would be slugfest but Frazier extra heart and will would be factor stopping Liston in 10.
Rocky is stopped on cuts Frazier's bobbing and weaving style too much for Rocky.
Lewis should outpoint Frazier unless Frazier gets lucky punch would very well could happen.
Tyson would floor Frazier in early going but once he warms up he takes Tyson's punches and outguts Tyson to stop him in 9th or 10th.
Dempsey too small for Fraizer and Fraizer's bobbing and weaving style too much and he stops Dempsey on his feet in 10th.
Louis's chin wasn't that great and he is too flatfooted which wouldn't be good vs someone like Frazier i think Frazier could ko him in middle rounds.
nicely writen. totally agree CC
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Re: smoking joe... frazier
I love Frazier but IMO he's in a world of trouble against a prime Tyson. Frazier Marciano would have been worth watching.
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Re: smoking joe... frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_One77
joe got wobbled by fighters like manuel ramos and jerry quarry...Imo these fighters couldn't touch Tyson in his prime. Sorry but Tyson is bigger, stronger, faster and imo has the better chin.
Tyson would knock him out hands down
When was Joe ever wobbled by Quarry ?? i watched both fights and he was never wobbled he got caught with few good punches but never wobbled and i don't know about chin department i would say Frazier has just as good as chin as Tyson and he certainly has more heart.
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Re: smoking joe... frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by JT Rock
Tyson
5'11
Weight 224 pounds
Reach 72
Frazier
5' 11-1/2"
Weight: 205 pounds
Reach: 73-1/2"
Although Frazier was a 1/2 taller and 1in and 1/2 reach better he would be at a severe disadvantage handspeed wise and outweighed by almost 20lbs and Prime Tyson was all solid muscle.. He was faster, stronger and more explosive than Frazier... Tyson would manhandle and bully Frazier... Again like mentioned Frazier would take 3 punches to give 1 and Tyson would just bury him in Foreman like fashion.
Hold on minute Tyson wasn't always 224 he could be 220 and lower and Frazier could be up to 214 and higher he was 214 against Foreman.
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Re: smoking joe... frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
Quote:
Originally Posted by JT Rock
Tyson
5'11
Weight 224 pounds
Reach 72
Frazier
5' 11-1/2"
Weight: 205 pounds
Reach: 73-1/2"
Although Frazier was a 1/2 taller and 1in and 1/2 reach better he would be at a severe disadvantage handspeed wise and outweighed by almost 20lbs and Prime Tyson was all solid muscle.. He was faster, stronger and more explosive than Frazier... Tyson would manhandle and bully Frazier... Again like mentioned Frazier would take 3 punches to give 1 and Tyson would just bury him in Foreman like fashion.
Hold on minute Tyson wasn't always 224 he could be 220 and lower and Frazier could be up to 214 and higher he was 214 against Foreman.
That was his weight against Ali... regardless lets not be petty now, Fine you fancy Frazier over Tyson and vice versa I know you like a good debate as well as I do but when we start squabbling over a FEW pounds then our debate has reached the end of the road and were just grasping at straws  ;)
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Re: smoking joe... frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
Quote:
Originally Posted by JT Rock
Tyson
5'11
Weight 224 pounds
Reach 72
Frazier
5' 11-1/2"
Weight: 205 pounds
Reach: 73-1/2"
Although Frazier was a 1/2 taller and 1in and 1/2 reach better he would be at a severe disadvantage handspeed wise and outweighed by almost 20lbs and Prime Tyson was all solid muscle.. He was faster, stronger and more explosive than Frazier... Tyson would manhandle and bully Frazier... Again like mentioned Frazier would take 3 punches to give 1 and Tyson would just bury him in Foreman like fashion.
Hold on minute Tyson wasn't always 224 he could be 220 and lower and Frazier could be up to 214 and higher he was 214 against Foreman.
Yeah but usually if he was over 205 the extra weight was around his waist. Mike Tyson was a rock solid 224.
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Re: smoking joe... frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by JT Rock
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
Quote:
Originally Posted by JT Rock
Tyson
5'11
Weight 224 pounds
Reach 72
Frazier
5' 11-1/2"
Weight: 205 pounds
Reach: 73-1/2"
Although Frazier was a 1/2 taller and 1in and 1/2 reach better he would be at a severe disadvantage handspeed wise and outweighed by almost 20lbs and Prime Tyson was all solid muscle.. He was faster, stronger and more explosive than Frazier... Tyson would manhandle and bully Frazier... Again like mentioned Frazier would take 3 punches to give 1 and Tyson would just bury him in Foreman like fashion.
Hold on minute Tyson wasn't always 224 he could be 220 and lower and Frazier could be up to 214 and higher he was 214 against Foreman.
That was his weight against Ali... regardless lets not be petty now, Fine you fancy Frazier over Tyson and vice versa I know you like a good debate as well as I do but when we start squabbling over a FEW pounds then our debate has reached the end of the road and were just grasping at straws ;)
Not at all Jt was just letting you know fact's plus Tyson was below 220 alot in his young career because you was saying that there were almost 20 pounds difference which wouldn't be case mate not being petty im just telling you wouldn't be that much difference in there weights prime for prime.
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Re: smoking joe... frazier
Joe Frazier was/is diabetic, you ever think about how that effected him?
Personally I'd like like to seen a matchup between him and Holyfied.
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Re: smoking joe... frazier
^Yeah that's pretty insane. No one can ever doubt Frazier's heart which was the size of philly. Going into the third Ali fight legally blind in one eye, with high blood pressure and lower back injury, and then putting up the kind of fight that he did, thats incredible.
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Re: smoking joe... frazier
The thing nobody is taking in to consideration,is the difference in training techniques
You give me Smokin Joe,with Dyna Bands,Creatine,Intervaled Runs,the understanding of how you lift for mass rather than a cut physique,and all the other things that changed in the era between Joe,and Mike
He'll be 220+,and he'll be faster
Physical training has totallly changed now,it changes constantly.
In Joes era,it was,lift weights,run,spar,and work the speed bag
Didnt get much more scientific then that
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Re: smoking joe... frazier
He'd be a bit stronger and faster but common, he'd be nowhere near Mike's speed and explosiveness.
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Re: smoking joe... frazier
Frazier was incredible in his day, his style was awkward (as Ali found out) his power was immense.
He fought the best on offer at the time, Machen, Bonavena, Chuvalo, Quarry, Ellis etc before beating Ali in 1971. Only big George really demolished him and i think the first Ali fight took a lot out of him.
He deserves full credit for a great career and he would have beaten most of the guys mentioned.
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Re: smoking joe... frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanflicker
He'd be a bit stronger and faster but common, he'd be nowhere near Mike's speed and explosiveness.
And Tyson is light years away from Joes intelligence,and elusivness
If it was just hitting hard,anyone could do it
Go get yourself a construction worker,and declare him champ
Tyson was a manufactured heavyweight champ,he never fought anyone who could hurt him,and when he finally did,he lost repeatedly
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Re: smoking joe... frazier
Prime for Prime Frazier could take most of those guys....
Frazier had the will and heart to stop Holmes late
Frazier had an up and down bobbing style which would be very effective vs Tyson's hooks but not his uppercuts, I still think Frazier had twice the heart Tyson did and would be able to beat Tyson!!! Frazier's workrate would have been good vs Tyson too.
Lewis would have DEMOLISHED Frazier....Lennox was patient but had HUGE power especially with the uppercut and that would spell big trouble for Frazier.
Joe Louis would beat Joe Frazier, there is no doubt in my mind that Joe Louis was the best all around fighter ever in the heavyweight division.
As for Dempsey and Marciano it would hard to tell seeing how neither man ever got KO'd and neither man lost decisions routinely...I think Frazier's size would be a factor but not as much as his workrate which I think would be more effective vs Dempsey who threw mostly haymakers....Rocky was constantly throwing punches from bell to bell!!!!
Frazier-Liston is the toughest for me to call I think mainly due to the way Foreman handled Frazier
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Re: smoking joe... frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
Prime for Prime Frazier could take most of those guys....
Frazier had the will and heart to stop Holmes late
Frazier had an up and down bobbing style which would be very effective vs Tyson's hooks but not his uppercuts, I still think Frazier had twice the heart Tyson did and would be able to beat Tyson!!! Frazier's workrate would have been good vs Tyson too.
Lewis would have DEMOLISHED Frazier....Lennox was patient but had HUGE power especially with the uppercut and that would spell big trouble for Frazier.
Joe Louis would beat Joe Frazier, there is no doubt in my mind that Joe Louis was the best all around fighter ever in the heavyweight division.
As for Dempsey and Marciano it would hard to tell seeing how neither man ever got KO'd and neither man lost decisions routinely...I think Frazier's size would be a factor but not as much as his workrate which I think would be more effective vs Dempsey who threw mostly haymakers....Rocky was constantly throwing punches from bell to bell!!!!
Frazier-Liston is the toughest for me to call I think mainly due to the way Foreman handled Frazier
Disagree Louis had suspect chin and he was flatfooted so it wouldn't be hard for Fraizer to get to him he would stop Louis imo.
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Re: smoking joe... frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanflicker
He'd be a bit stronger and faster but common, he'd be nowhere near Mike's speed and explosiveness.
And Tyson is light years away from Joes intelligence,and elusivness
If it was just hitting hard,anyone could do it
Go get yourself a construction worker,and declare him champ
Tyson was a manufactured heavyweight champ,he never fought anyone who could hurt him,and when he finally did,he lost repeatedly
It's not just "hitting hard", you're purposely distorting what I said. And if you want to compare Tyson to the average construction worker, your credibility goes right down the toilet right now.
Incase you have never watched a prime Mike Tyson fight (and there aren't a lot of people who can say that - boxing and nonboxing fans alike), he did more than just "hit hard". He threw incredibly fast and accurate bombs. I agree that Joe was more elusive and intelligent than a lot of people give him credit for, but he was no Pernell Whitaker. He wasn't exactly hard to tag, and while he was tough he didn't exactly have Chuvalo's chin either. IMO Mike would simply outgun him. If Foreman could get to Joe so quickly, there is no doubt in my mind that Tyson's quick bombs would find Joe's chin pretty quickly. Once again I'm not saying Tyson deserves to be look at as a better fighter than JOe, I simply think he is a very bad matchup for him.
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Re: smoking joe... frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanflicker
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanflicker
He'd be a bit stronger and faster but common, he'd be nowhere near Mike's speed and explosiveness.
And Tyson is light years away from Joes intelligence,and elusivness
If it was just hitting hard,anyone could do it
Go get yourself a construction worker,and declare him champ
Tyson was a manufactured heavyweight champ,he never fought anyone who could hurt him,and when he finally did,he lost repeatedly
It's not just "hitting hard", you're purposely distorting what I said. And if you want to compare Tyson to the average construction worker, your credibility goes right down the toilet right now.
Incase you have never watched a prime Mike Tyson fight (and there aren't a lot of people who can say that - boxing and nonboxing fans alike), he did more than just "hit hard". He threw incredibly fast and accurate bombs. I agree that Joe was more elusive and intelligent than a lot of people give him credit for, but he was no Pernell Whitaker. He wasn't exactly hard to tag, and while he was tough he didn't exactly have Chuvalo's chin either. IMO Mike would simply outgun him. If Foreman could get to Joe so quickly, there is no doubt in my mind that Tyson's quick bombs would find Joe's chin pretty quickly. Once again I'm not saying Tyson deserves to be look at as a better fighter than JOe, I simply think he is a very bad matchup for him.
You can't compare Foreman fight to how Tyson fight would go totally different in styles and i think Frazier would out gut Tyson like Holyfield did.
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Re: smoking joe... frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanflicker
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanflicker
He'd be a bit stronger and faster but common, he'd be nowhere near Mike's speed and explosiveness.
And Tyson is light years away from Joes intelligence,and elusivness
If it was just hitting hard,anyone could do it
Go get yourself a construction worker,and declare him champ
Tyson was a manufactured heavyweight champ,he never fought anyone who could hurt him,and when he finally did,he lost repeatedly
It's not just "hitting hard", you're purposely distorting what I said. And if you want to compare Tyson to the average construction worker, your credibility goes right down the toilet right now.
Incase you have never watched a prime Mike Tyson fight (and there aren't a lot of people who can say that - boxing and nonboxing fans alike), he did more than just "hit hard". He threw incredibly fast and accurate bombs. I agree that Joe was more elusive and intelligent than a lot of people give him credit for, but he was no Pernell Whitaker. He wasn't exactly hard to tag, and while he was tough he didn't exactly have Chuvalo's chin either. IMO Mike would simply outgun him. If Foreman could get to Joe so quickly, there is no doubt in my mind that Tyson's quick bombs would find Joe's chin pretty quickly. Once again I'm not saying Tyson deserves to be look at as a better fighter than JOe, I simply think he is a very bad matchup for him.
You can't compare Foreman fight to how Tyson fight would go totally different in styles and i think Frazier would out gut Tyson like Holyfield did.
Point one,Foreman was alot taller then Frazier,Tyson isnt.
Secondly after the first Ali fight,Frazier was never the same fighter.You might as well view the Lewis loss,as indicitive of Tysons entire career.
Thirdly,quality of the division at the time,who did Tyson really fight?
Tyrell Biggs? Pinklon Thomas? Tony Tubbs? James"Bonecrusher" Smith?(great nickname,bad fighter), Razor Ruddock?(twice)
His two biggest wins were against a clearly over the hill Larry Holmes,and a puffed up Light-Heavyweight in Michael Spinks,who clearly didnt want to fight.
Yeah Mike's knockouts were spectacular entertainment,but at the end of the day he was a one dimmensional fighter,who never adapted to aging,and fought weak opponents.
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Re: smoking joe... frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
Disagree Louis had suspect chin and he was flatfooted so it wouldn't be hard for Fraizer to get to him he would stop Louis imo.
A suspect chin that withstood 8 rounds of Rocky Marciano's best shots when Louis was WELL past his prime!!!
Louis was flatfooted because he could be, he stalked his opponents and threw as hard as any heavyweight before or after him.
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Re: smoking joe... frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
Disagree Louis had suspect chin and he was flatfooted so it wouldn't be hard for Fraizer to get to him he would stop Louis imo.
A suspect chin that withstood 8 rounds of Rocky Marciano's best shots when Louis was WELL past his prime!!!
Louis was flatfooted because he could be, he stalked his opponents and threw as hard as any heavyweight before or after him.
I do feel compelled to point out here,Rocky really wasnt known as a bruising puncher.
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Re: smoking joe... frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
Quote:
Originally Posted by oakleyno1
only ever lost to foreman and ali, and i think only ever knocked down by foreman?
how would joe of done vs other greats
holmes
liston
rocky m
lewis
tyson
dempsy
louis
his record may not be that impressive ( 32-4) i think
but still i think he does deserve to be in peoples top ten heavys of all time
opinons?
Holmes out points Frazier with that famous jab.
Liston vs Frazier would be slugfest but Frazier extra heart and will would be factor stopping Liston in 10.
Rocky is stopped on cuts Frazier's bobbing and weaving style too much for Rocky.
Lewis should outpoint Frazier unless Frazier gets lucky punch would very well could happen.
Tyson would floor Frazier in early going but once he warms up he takes Tyson's punches and outguts Tyson to stop him in 9th or 10th.
Dempsey too small for Fraizer and Fraizer's bobbing and weaving style too much and he stops Dempsey on his feet in 10th.
Louis's chin wasn't that great and he is too flatfooted which wouldn't be good vs someone like Frazier i think Frazier could ko him in middle rounds.
I think you are being a bit hard on old Liston there. In his prime had all the heart in the world.He fought 1 of his early fights with a broken jaw.
Peolpe tend to judge Liston just on his fights with Ali and somtimes his fights with Patterson.
He was an all roung compleat fighter who was unlucky enough to face Ali in his prime.
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Re: smoking joe... frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
I do feel compelled to point out here,Rocky really wasnt known as a bruising puncher.
....you've just outed yourself as an idiot of historic measures!!!
49 wins.....43 knockouts
I mean Jesus Christ dude...that's impressive no matter who you fight and Rocky fought the best out there at the time
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Re: smoking joe... frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
Disagree Louis had suspect chin and he was flatfooted so it wouldn't be hard for Fraizer to get to him he would stop Louis imo.
A suspect chin that withstood 8 rounds of Rocky Marciano's best shots when Louis was WELL past his prime!!!
Louis was flatfooted because he could be, he stalked his opponents and threw as hard as any heavyweight before or after him.
Lyle you really think that flatfooted Louis who had suspect chin would beat animal like Frazier ?? Louis took some hard shots of Rocky agreed but he had suspect chin Lyle you know that yourself and Frazier's bobbing and weaving style would be to much for Louis he was great fighter Lyle but his style is all wrong for fighter like Frazier.
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Re: smoking joe... frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
I do feel compelled to point out here,Rocky really wasnt known as a bruising puncher.
....you've just outed yourself as an idiot of historic measures!!!
49 wins.....43 knockouts
I mean Jesus Christ dude...that's impressive no matter who you fight and Rocky fought the best out there at the time
Way to learn how to analyse those knockouts
Lets see
Two against Jersey Joe Walcott,his last two fights before he retired
Archie Moore,who had to come up 18 pounds for the fight
Don Cockell,a journeyman with absolutely no punch whatsoever
Harry Mathews,who actually lost to Cockell twice
Gino Buonvino,wow theres a stellar name,retired after the second time Rocky KO'ed him
And of course the 37 year old former champ who was allready taking smack at that point,and it still took him 8 rounds to do it
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Re: smoking joe... frazier
Quote:
Originally Posted by porkypara
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
Quote:
Originally Posted by oakleyno1
only ever lost to foreman and ali, and i think only ever knocked down by foreman?
how would joe of done vs other greats
holmes
liston
rocky m
lewis
tyson
dempsy
louis
his record may not be that impressive ( 32-4) i think
but still i think he does deserve to be in peoples top ten heavys of all time
opinons?
Holmes out points Frazier with that famous jab.
Liston vs Frazier would be slugfest but Frazier extra heart and will would be factor stopping Liston in 10.
Rocky is stopped on cuts Frazier's bobbing and weaving style too much for Rocky.
Lewis should outpoint Frazier unless Frazier gets lucky punch would very well could happen.
Tyson would floor Frazier in early going but once he warms up he takes Tyson's punches and outguts Tyson to stop him in 9th or 10th.
Dempsey too small for Fraizer and Fraizer's bobbing and weaving style too much and he stops Dempsey on his feet in 10th.
Louis's chin wasn't that great and he is too flatfooted which wouldn't be good vs someone like Frazier i think Frazier could ko him in middle rounds.
I think you are being a bit hard on old Liston there. In his prime had all the heart in the world.He fought 1 of his early fights with a broken jaw.
Peolpe tend to judge Liston just on his fights with Ali and somtimes his fights with Patterson.
He was an all roung compleat fighter who was unlucky enough to face Ali in his prime.
Good statement Mr Porky i did forget how good Liston was with his Jab and other things he could maybe win decision but really and truthfully i don't see Liston using his jab i see this as toe to toe war with Frazier edging because of his bigger heart imo.
