All Time: Heavies, Middles, Welters

I've never made a list before the other day when I listed my top 10 Heavies of all time. So, I decided to do a list for each of my three favorite weight classes and see what you folks thought of them.

I want to hear your thoughts good or bad...

All Time: Heavyweights
1. Joe Louis
2. Ali
3. Rocky Marciano
4. Larry Holmes
5. John L. Sullivan
6. Jack Johnson
7. Gene Tunney
8. Jack Dempsy
9. Sonny Liston
10. Mike Tyson

All Time: Middleweights
1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Marvin Hagler
3. Stanley Ketchel
4. Carlos Monzon
5. Les Darcy
6. Bernard Hopkins
7. James Toney
8. Toney Zale
9. Rocky Graziano
10. Jake LaMotta

All Time: Welterweights
1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Sugar Ray Leonard
3. Thomas Hearns
4. Julio Ceaser Chavez
5. Pernell Whitaker
6. Roberto Duran
7. Henry Armstrong
8. Kostya Tszyu
9. Kid Gavilin
10. Floyd Mayweather Jr.

Your lists have got most of the usual suspects but I got a couple questions:

Can you rate Sullivan alongside fighters of the gloved era?

At middleweight where are Greb, Burley, Flowers, Walker or even possible Conn.

How come you got Marciano ahead of Johnson. (Ali's my #1 followed by Louis & Johnson)

Jim Jeffries is a guy who makes the bottom half of my top 10

My all time HW list looks like this...

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Larry Holmes
4. Rocky Marciano
5. George Foreman
6. Jack Johnson
7. Sonny Liston
8. Joe Frazier
9. Gene Tunney
10. Lennox Lewis (yep, I have Lewis as my #10.)

I dont see Roy Jones Jr?!? ???

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Beanflicker

My all time HW list looks like this...

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Larry Holmes
4. Rocky Marciano
5. George Foreman
6. Jack Johnson
7. Sonny Liston
8. Joe Frazier
9. Gene Tunney
10. Lennox Lewis (yep, I have Lewis as my #10.)

---

not far from my top 10 actually. im unsure about tunney. yes he did beat carpentier, gibbons and dempsey twice but does that qualify him as a great heavyweight champion. hes a great fighter for sure but i rank him on his heavyweight acheivements

id have had jack johnson as high as 3 though with holmes at 4. i agree totally with lewis with being in the top 10.

my 10 would be

ali
louis
johnson
holmes
lewis
foreman
marciano
holyfield
frazier
dempsey

For the record I have a VERY high opinon of Larry Holmes, and I feel that if he and Ali were to fight while both in their primes, Holmes would beat him. But Ali just has too many incredible achievements not to be #1, so Holmes gets my #2

fair comment. thats why i have holmes at 4. to be honest it was the highest i could of put him really in my opinion

alis acheivements in and out of the ring says it all, guts,chin, charisma etc
louis - 25 title defences, tremendous short puncher
johnson - defensive genius, fought in an era of extreme prejudice, half a century ahead of his time

im with you on the rating holmes so highly but the 3 ive just mentioned just pip him in my opinion

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LBSCFC

fair comment. thats why i have holmes at 4. to be honest it was the highest i could of put him really in my opinion

alis acheivements in and out of the ring says it all, guts,chin, charisma etc
louis - 25 title defences, tremendous short puncher
johnson - defensive genius, fought in an era of extreme prejudice, half a century ahead of his time

im with you on the rating holmes so highly but the 3 ive just mentioned just pip him in my opinion

---

I agree with you Holmes fits in at 4.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Beanflicker

For the record I have a VERY high opinon of Larry Holmes, and I feel that if he and Ali were to fight while both in their primes, Holmes would beat him. But Ali just has too many incredible achievements not to be #1, so Holmes gets my #2

---

Agreed

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LBSCFC

fair comment. thats why i have holmes at 4. to be honest it was the highest i could of put him really in my opinion

alis acheivements in and out of the ring says it all, guts,chin, charisma etc
louis - 25 title defences, tremendous short puncher
johnson - defensive genius, fought in an era of extreme prejudice, half a century ahead of his time

im with you on the rating holmes so highly but the 3 ive just mentioned just pip him in my opinion

---

To be fair i've seen VERY LITTLE Jack Johnson footage, so I might be underrating him.

its always a tough one comparing eras. maybe if johnson fought in the modern era maybe he would be outpointed a majority of the time because of his style. greatness can only be judged on the era u fought in. holmes with the exception of ali probably had the greatest chin of any heavyweight. much is said of the way ali got straight up after the fraier left hook in 71 but whatabout holmes v shavers.

I'll start with the Middles :D

1. Marvin Hagler
2. Carlos Monzon
3. Harry Greb
4 Sugar Ray Robinson
5. Mickey Walker
6. Charley Burley
7 Bernard Hopkins
8 Stanley Ketchel
9. Marcel Cerdan
10 Tony Zale

Big H can i ask why Hagler over Robinson jusr wondering

All Time: Heavyweights
1. Ali
2. Larry Holmes
3. Joe Louis
4. Jack Johnson
5. Evander Holyfield
6. Rocky Marciano
7. Gene Tunney
8. Jack Dempsy
9. John Sullivan
10. George Foreman

All Time: Middleweights
1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Marvin Hagler
3. Stanley Ketchel
4. Bernard Hopkins
5. Les Darcy
6. Carlos Monzon
7. James Toney
8. Jake LaMotta
9. Rocky Graziano
10. Tony Zale

All Time: Welterweights
1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Sugar Ray Leonard
3. Thomas Hearns
4. Shane Mosley
5. Julio Ceaser Chavez
6. Felix Trinidad
7. Pernell Whitaker
8. Roberto Duran
9. Kostya Tszyu
10. Floyd Mayweather Jr.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BIG H

I'll start with the Middles :D

1. Marvin Hagler
2. Carlos Monzon
3. Harry Greb
4 Sugar Ray Robinson
5. Mickey Walker
6. Charley Burley
7 Bernard Hopkins
8 Stanley Ketchel
9. Marcel Cerdan
10 Tony Zale

---

Nice looking list bro... I rate Greb #1. No Flowers though

My list

Greb
Robinson
Monzon
Hagler
LaMotta
Burley
Flowers
Hopkins
Ketchel
Walker

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tysonbruno

Big H can i ask why Hagler over Robinson jusr wondering

---

Yes mate. Coz it's Middleweight. SRR is without doubt, imo, the greatest Welter of all time and the greatest P4P of all time, but I would think most people would have Hagler and Monzon above SRR at Middle. Yes he was 5 times champion, but he had to lose it to need to regain it, Hagler and Mozon were much more dominant at Midddleweight and held onto their belts

Ok..This will probably have changed from my past list's as they always do..
But also note i also include my liking of certain fighters along with they'res and others greatness!

Heavy's..

1. Joe Louis

2. Ali

3.Marciano

4. Dempsey

5. Foreman

6.Lewis

7. Tyson

8. Johnson

9. Foreman

10. Frazier


Middle's

1. Sugar Ray Robinson

2. Bernard Hopkins

3.Hagler

4.Jones Jr

5. Toney

6. Leonard

7. Lamotta

8.Winky wright.. Sure he is still fighting and at prime..But believe me he either is..Or is a dead cert to be here in the middleweight listings

9.Iran Barkley

10. I kinda want to mention Norris and jackson but norris was a light middle and jackson only a middle for a short period witha short title reign..So im gona cheat n stick em in here..


Welter.

1. Sugar ray Robinson

2.Sugar ray leonard

3.Felix Trinidad

4.Tommy hearns

5. Roberto Duran

6.Pernell Whittaker

7. Julio Cesar Chavez

8. Shane Mosely

9. Oscar De La Hoya

10. Floyd/ Gatti Floyd an excellent fighter/Gatti a great fighter who was huge for boxing...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BIG H

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tysonbruno

Big H can i ask why Hagler over Robinson jusr wondering

---

Yes mate. Coz it's Middleweight. SRR is without doubt, imo, the greatest Welter of all time and the greatest P4P of all time, but I would think most people would have Hagler and Monzon above SRR at Middle. Yes he was 5 times champion, but he had to lose it to need to regain it, Hagler and Mozon were much more dominant at Midddleweight and held onto their belts

---

I agree with that just wondered your reasons

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BIG H

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tysonbruno

Big H can i ask why Hagler over Robinson jusr wondering

---

Yes mate. Coz it's Middleweight. SRR is without doubt, imo, the greatest Welter of all time and the greatest P4P of all time, but I would think most people would have Hagler and Monzon above SRR at Middle. Yes he was 5 times champion, but he had to lose it to need to regain it, Hagler and Mozon were much more dominant at Midddleweight and held onto their belts

---

I rate Robinson #2 ahead of both Hagler & Monzon. I agree the middleweight Robinson was not the welterweight Robinson. Slower, older & inconsistent. But he's still #2 in my eyes for several reasons:
1st the quality of his opponents, no other middleweight defeated so many Hall of Famers.
2nd at his best (which might have been the St Valentines Day Massacre fight) he could have beaten any other middleweight in history. Even @ middleweight he was one of the closest things to perfection in the ring.
3rd he was a star & a hugely popular champion. His fights with Basilio & Fullmer were huge events. Plus his stoppage of Fullmer in 57 is one of the most perfect knockouts ever recorded.

HEAVYWEIGHTS

1 Muhammad Ali
2 Joe Louis
3 Larry Holmes
4 Jack Johnson
5 Rocky Marciano
6 George Foreman
7 Gene Tunney
8 Jack Dempsey
9 Lennox Lewis
10 Evander Holyfield


Middleweights


1 Harry Greb
2 Marvin Hagler
3 Carlos Monzon
4 Sugar Ray Robinson
5 Charles Burley
6 Bernard Hopkins
7 Stanley Ketchel
8 Mickey Walker
9 Marcel Cerdan
10 Jake Lamotta


WELTERWEIGHTS


1 Sugar Ray Robinson
2 Sugar Ray Leonard
3 Thomas Hearns
4 Julio Cesar Chavez
5 Pernell Whitaker
6 Roberto Duran
7 Henry Armstrong
8 Felix Trinidad
9 Shane Mosley
10 Oscar Delahoya


Not happy with it i really struggled.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Beanflicker

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LBSCFC

fair comment. thats why i have holmes at 4. to be honest it was the highest i could of put him really in my opinion

alis acheivements in and out of the ring says it all, guts,chin, charisma etc
louis - 25 title defences, tremendous short puncher
johnson - defensive genius, fought in an era of extreme prejudice, half a century ahead of his time

im with you on the rating holmes so highly but the 3 ive just mentioned just pip him in my opinion

---

To be fair i've seen VERY LITTLE Jack Johnson footage, so I might be underrating him.

---

Your not alone mate. From what Ive seen I would stop short of calling what Jack Johnson did genius too ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by galaxy76

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BIG H

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tysonbruno

Big H can i ask why Hagler over Robinson jusr wondering

---

Yes mate. Coz it's Middleweight. SRR is without doubt, imo, the greatest Welter of all time and the greatest P4P of all time, but I would think most people would have Hagler and Monzon above SRR at Middle. Yes he was 5 times champion, but he had to lose it to need to regain it, Hagler and Mozon were much more dominant at Midddleweight and held onto their belts

---

I rate Robinson #2 ahead of both Hagler & Monzon. I agree the middleweight Robinson was not the welterweight Robinson. Slower, older & inconsistent. But he's still #2 in my eyes for several reasons:
1st the quality of his opponents, no other middleweight defeated so many Hall of Famers.
2nd at his best (which might have been the St Valentines Day Massacre fight) he could have beaten any other middleweight in history. Even @ middleweight he was one of the closest things to perfection in the ring.
3rd he was a star & a hugely popular champion. His fights with Basilio & Fullmer were huge events. Plus his stoppage of Fullmer in 57 is one of the most perfect knockouts ever recorded.

---

My favourite punch of all time ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Beanflicker

For the record I have a VERY high opinon of Larry Holmes, and I feel that if he and Ali were to fight while both in their primes, Holmes would beat him. But Ali just has too many incredible achievements not to be #1, so Holmes gets my #2

---

Agreed

---

i agree also Holmes wins on points over Ali
but i think Johnson and guys like that were good in there era but wud not have beaten Lennox Lewis or Holyfield for that matter

Ali
Holmes
Louis
Marceano
foreman
dempsey
tyson
frazier
liston
lewis

Burley was never more than a welter !52 top, he always weighed in with added poundage on him should really be rated at welter

My Lists

Heavweights:

1. Muhammed Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Sam Langford
4. Gene Tunney
5. Jack Dempsey
6. Rocky Marciano
7. Larry Holmes
8. Jack Johnson
9. George Foreman
10. Joe Frazier

Middleweights:
1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Harry Greb
3. Marvin Hagler
4. Carlos Monzon
5. Michael Cerdan
6. Stanley Ketchal
7. Bernard Hopkins
8. Mickey Walker
9. Jake LaMotta
10. Tony Zale

Welterweights:
1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Pernell Whitaker
4. Sugar Ray Leonard
5. Roberto Duran
6. Julio Ceaser Chavez
7. Tommy Hearns
8. Charley Burley
9. Felix Trinidad
10. Oscar De La Hoya

Something thats always puzzeled me, why is Lamotta rated so high he never beat a good fighter other than Robinson. Cerdans shoulder went early other than that nobody.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scrap

Something thats always puzzeled me, why is Lamotta rated so high he never beat a good fighter other than Robinson. Cerdans shoulder went early other than that nobody.

---

Interesting , you got a point there !

:o

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lords Gym

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scrap

Something thats always puzzeled me, why is Lamotta rated so high he never beat a good fighter other than Robinson. Cerdans shoulder went early other than that nobody.

---

Interesting , you got a point there !

---

LaMotta fought Robinson down to the wire 6 times, plus handed him his 1st lose. That was the best Robinson there was & LaMotta whipped him. He beat ever good middleweight contender out there, hall of famer Zivic who Jake beat 3 times, Jackie Wilson, Tommy Bell, George Costner, Jose Basora, Holman Williams. If all you know about LaMotta came from the movie then these names don't mean much but they were top flight contenters during a stacked period in middleweight history.
If he hadn't got Frozen out by the mob he'd have been champ for years.
In the St. Valentines Day massacre Lamotta lead on 2 cards after 8 rds but he was all dried out from making 160 & had nothing left once Robinson started teeing off. But he took everything the best fighter in history could give him & at the end was still looking him in the eye.
Theres no doubt in my mind LaMotta was a great fighter!!!

fair point .

Heavyweight
1.) ali
2.) marciano
3.) joe louis
4.) Jack Dempsey
5.) Larry holmes
6.) George Foreman
7.) Lennox Lewis
8.) Joe Frazier
9.) jack johnsom
10.) floyd patterson

Midddleweight
1.) Carlos Munzon
2.) Marvin Hagler
3.) sugar ray robinson
4.) b-hop
5.) james toney underrated
6.) rocky graziano
7.) roy jones
8.) jake la motta
9.) tony zale
10.) laszlo papp

welterweight
1.) sugar ray robinson
2.) sugar ray leonard
3.)tommy hearns
4.)pernell whitaker
5.) henry armstrong
6.) roberto duran
7.) kostya tszyu
8.) floyd mayweather
9.) felix trinidad
10.) kig gavilan

Cc for the underrated toney bit...

One thing i cant understand thou.. How comes people rate fighters like floyd and tszyu above trinidad?

Trinidad was the undefeated welterweight sensation.. kostya was a light welter who was in a way overrated for the big fights he had, but underrated in skill.. he just didnt show it enough by beating more big names basically..
And though floyd is an excellent fighter he too has had only a few fights at welterweight and its fair to include him but i wouldnt say he shapes up with tito..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Beanflicker

For the record I have a VERY high opinon of Larry Holmes, and I feel that if he and Ali were to fight while both in their primes, Holmes would beat him. But Ali just has too many incredible achievements not to be #1, so Holmes gets my #2

---

Are you serious? Holmes beating Ali each in their prime. Holmes as good as he was couldn'e hold Ali's water bottle in his first fight after suspension.

Galaxy, Dont6 see it Zivic was 2 to 1 all tight ones when Zivic was past his best, Same as Williams, he was connected. Robinson is the reason for his being rated, thats why I always wondered about Robinson. It might be many things same as a Ali ,Norton thing probably. You take a good look at Robinsons early resume its not the fighters there but the ones that are not there, that get s you thinking.

these lists are always a bit skewed for me you could easily swap louis for ali ain number on spots and as far as heads up matchups Joe louis would get killed by many lesser fighters than Ali(thats not the point though its comparing best in an era and whos regin had the best in that era i suppose) Marciano also he was undefeated so its difficult to put him up that high but hed lose easily to someone like ali and ilove marciano. Holmes another great fighter whos got an arguement he held the title for an enourmous amount of time but his era sucked... kesaydah

you make a interesting point about era's in boxing.. you take a moderate fighter and put him in at the right time, he can look fantastic against the right backdrop . hence the old saying timing is everything ;)

thats why these list are interseting, if everything was clear when deciding on these lists there would be no point in them existing because everyones would be the same.