During sparring....

what part of your opponent do you like to focus on? His eyes? His left hand? His right hand??

I tend to look at his face... or looking elsewhere to try to find an opening. But after eating too many jabs, I wondering why that is (when I've always had great reflexes and hand-eye coord). I also find it takes your ability to slip and parry away because you don't see the hand coming at you as well. It's tantamount to a batter watching a pitcher's face and not the ball. ie, to hit the ball you have to WATCH the ball.

I'm going to try watching his jab hand a little more and letting the targets become part of my background and perriphery since it's easier to see background objects than it is to see foreground objects.

Cus D'amatto once said something like "He doesn't hit you with his chest or eyes...he hits you with his hands, so why watch anything else?"

so what do YOU like to focus on, and why?

Honest awnser?
On the rare occaisions that I climb in to the ring to spar,instead of just bitching and complaining from the corner,I try not to fixate on any one thing.
Every fighter has a twitch that will tell you were they're going,but you got to figure out what it is
With Feur,I watch her rear shoulder,her eyes wont tell you a thing,with Tully(who's finally off of my s-list)I watch his hips,and his eyes,he will look where he's going and when he doesnt he'll wind up his hips,the other guy she spars with Jason,its his hands,he does a slight drop right before he throws

When I Boxed I was a hand watcher. Today having been on the pads for the last 36 years and done thousands of rounds using them with different fighters, Im a elbows man. By watching the elbows I know exatly where the shot distance direction power is going to. Its something you pick up on I suppose its the first thing that moves it directs the angle of the fist. Now I know its a different set of circumstances to Boxing, but Im working with a guy at the moment weve talked and hes trying it and for him it works, in fact he loves it. But its horses for courses.

As you say,strokes for folks
I just try to warn against fixating,different fighters,different signs of where theyre going

For me i dont particularly concentrate on anything..If i had to say its a mixture of head and chest/ shoulders..

Im mainly looking to parry away jabs while throwing mine and looking for openings, and watching for shoulder movement etc when my partner is gona punch..

I have been told by people before to watch the eyes but whatever signs people give out from their eyes I don't pick them up.

I was told that if you take your eyes off their eyes you miss it when they are in pain. However, I'd rather know if they are throwing something than how they are feeling because I'll be aiming to do the best I can in whatever situation and in my midget weight class there are relatively few KOs. Some people can pretend they are not in pain when they are anyway.

For some reason I prefer to look at the shoulders more than anything else but in general as others have suggested I think a body part which has a direct functional role in the boxing action is more informative.

I might trial watching other areas too to see if i pick up more. Thanks for bringing up the topic because you have me thinking now :)

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Originally Posted by Sharla

I have been told by people before to watch the eyes but whatever signs people give out from their eyes I don't pick them up.

I was told that if you take your eyes off their eyes you miss it when they are in pain. However, I'd rather know if they are throwing something than how they are feeling because I'll be aiming to do the best I can in whatever situation and in my midget weight class there are relatively few KOs. Some people can pretend they are not in pain when they are anyway.

For some reason I prefer to look at the shoulders more than anything else but in general as others have suggested I think a body part which has a direct functional role in the boxing action is more informative.

I might trial watching other areas too to see if i pick up more. Thanks for bringing up the topic because you have me thinking now :)

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Hey Sharla
Guage the opponent,rather then have a set point of fixation
You can stare at Feur's eyes all the live long day
Thats gonna hurt,because those eyes are dead in the ring,they give away not a thing.I used to try that with her,it hurt.

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Originally Posted by Scrap

When I Boxed I was a hand watcher. Today having been on the pads for the last 36 years and done thousands of rounds using them with different fighters, Im a elbows man. By watching the elbows I know exatly where the shot distance direction power is going to. Its something you pick up on I suppose its the first thing that moves it directs the angle of the fist. Now I know its a different set of circumstances to Boxing, but Im working with a guy at the moment weve talked and hes trying it and for him it works, in fact he loves it. But its horses for courses.

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Fascinating, then you wouldn't mind if I share this: "The August 1960 Boxing Illustrated in This was Joe Gans said, “Gans was born with a sixth sense. They tell the story of how one of his opponents, after Joe had "carried" him for six rounds, asked The Old Master, "how do you do it?" And Joe just grinned and said, "I really dunno. I tried to figure it out, but I can't put it into words. I guess I just see what you're thinking and when the thought gets down around the elbow I just reach out and stop it.”

Ultimately I believe that the fighter has to become instinctively aware of everything that's going on. The weight shifts, any preliminary movements before a punch, distance/range, rhythm, patterns and tactical awareness are all things that should be taken into account.

Of course, this kind of perception doesn't happen over night. At first it's just noticing something new, it could be observing the different shifts of your sparring partner, or anything anything that catches your eye.

I can't remember the jargon or name of it. It's like when you have a particular car that you're interested in. In my case a Chrysler Lebaron convertable for what ever reason stands out. At first I didn't really notice, until my dad's lebaron was totalled by an idiot driver and at that point it stuck in my mind. I wasn't purposely looking for lebarons, but eventually just the thinking about it that time was enough that everytime a Lebaron is in sight I notice it. A couple years of that strange habit of looking for it and I can notice the that kind of car quickly, even from a distance and I'm not even thinking or looking for it.

I guess the same thing applies to boxing, it starts off as some sort of thought, maybe a discovery or realization. But the sooner you start thinking about that something, and more you keep thinking about it and maybe, just maybe your eyes will catch on. A lot of it has to do with experience, take a sharp trainer like Ray Arcel, or master boxer like Corbett and you'd see that their powers of observation far exceed your own, when it comes to seeing the different subtleties that are going on.

You have to start somewhere, and the sooner you do the better off you'll be.

[Edit:] I think for a beginner you should start off with something less subtle. For instance, take notice the distance between you and your opponent, also angles and obvious things that your opponent gives away. Boxing is learning in pieces, a lot of it is about relationships; distance, the timing, cause and effect, and everything is changing. In regards to learning it's an observation and with boxing it boils down to experience which you must feel for yourself to truly begin to understand it. You could say the same thing about life, as experience creates the perspective.

Yeah good point Monkey. I think she's taller than me too so I'd probably raise my chin and set up a nice shot to the chin for her aswell. Hurts just thinking about it :)

And I think everyone else has made good points too.

chris enjoyed that cc

Scrap, interesting, I'll try it. Of course, a true jab that is well executaed will show no prior signs of elbow movement. The hand comes straight out, elbow follows...one clean motion as you know. We have p[eople in our gym, you can see their jab coming a mile away for that very reason. Elbow comes way up, jab goes out. So you MIGHT be seing this because you probably train so many new kids that start out with big tells from their flaring elbows. Yes, no?

Sharla, I tend to watch the eyes too as I sadi, but I dont think we're getting anythin out of it... infact,i thik it'ds plain wrong. Try some other approaches, as will I.

scrap,

also, that might be fine for a trainer, but do you think that would be good if you were a boxer? I just wonder if you're focusing on the mechanics of the punch because A, that's your job as trainer, and B you know you're not going to get hit. Any thoughts?

Good post Scrap/Chris

I think you're both saying the same thing. You get around boxing long enough you tend to get a 6th sense about it. You can sort just feel it. It is important to watch the body and as Trainer Monkey says, every fighter has his own little things that tip off his punches and other movements. But watching the body can only get you so far. One must also consider your opponent's intentions. That is, understanding what he is thinking and what he is trying to accomplish at a strategic level. You need to understand his strategy as it is this that always comes before the punches. If you understand that, then the punches are easier to see. For example try to watch Roy Jones' body movements and you may likely eat something in the process because he is so tricky. Try to understand how he intends to hit you and he becomes much more predictable.

Also I have a personal theory that great fighters see everything their opponent is doing in relation to them. By this I mean that they see their opponent AND themselves. Fighters never do anything without having been influenced by the other fighter in some way. Every move your opponent makes is made with you in consideration. Thus in order to fully understand your opponent you must also have some idea of how you look to him.

Basketball greats like Bird or Jordan could see everything happening on the court and through this they had absolute control over everything and anything that set foot on the court. Only the greats had that. Boxing is the same way.

Hey Thomas, I think that's called court vision, right? I remember reading an article on peak performance a few years back about how the elite athletes/players eyes are always moving a lot more than the novice athletes. I think it'd be safe to also assume that they are much more observant, and the great ones are more observant and decisive still.

It's more than just seeing what's going on. At the kind of rapid pace of boxing, while you're surveying what's happening, off the bat you must pick strategies and you go with it. Sharp observation is something that must be developed first hand. It's important for boxing because through it you're able to make better choices.

The more I understand boxing the more I'm beginning to see that it's not just about understanding your opponent, it's just as important if not more to thoroughly understand what "I'm" doing. Since boxing is about different relationships such as cause and effect, what I do affects what my opponent will do, and in a sense I can plan around their reaction.

There's more to it, but I'm not on that page yet. It's what Thomas is saying about understanding their intentions, breaking down their strategy and setting up a counter strategy. It's strange to say this, but in order to understand how to defeat your opponent, you must understand how to defeat yourself.

Wow that sounds kinda deep huh, like something out of "The Art of War"...

Part of the secret lies in the mirror. When you begin to understand yourself, your faults/short-comings, and anything that gives your intentions away you can begin to set up traps and control your opponent by better controlling yourself. Then you can start doing some higher level things like doing things you wouldn't normally do. Therefore you have much more control over their choices, and by seeing how it affects them you can better make an effective gameplan.

Do you tape targets on your mirror/bags Chris?

Chris, it's called the feint. lol. But you're right. The mroe you box, the more all these subtle tactics become inate. You re-program your mind and instrincts. For example, for 30 years I taught myself to catch the ball coming at me, and it got me playing at the college and international level as a 3rd baseman. Now I have to miss the ball altogether, so to speak.

Put it on to see the reaction Von, Boxing equates to everything. Just by looking at someones posture and balance you can see what sort of day theyve had. Looking into someones eyes you can see there soul and know what they are. But at the end of the day I find Boxing is about finding who you are after the first punch has landed. All the technique and knowledge in the world wont help if you cant fight, thats the bottom line.

Absolutely Scrap cc. There are people that should box but don't and people who box but don't have the bottle to keep in there.

i look at hands/chest

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Originally Posted by ThomasTabin

Do you tape targets on your mirror/bags Chris?

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I have tape that runs around where the belly is and another that goes around where the head is, but I haven't put any targets represent the solarplexus/liver.

I don't have have my mirror marked. It sounds like a good idea though, it'd make it easier to imagine throwing counters to the liver/solarplexus, and chin. I'll give it shot.

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Originally Posted by Scrap

Put it on to see the reaction Von, Boxing equates to everything. Just by looking at someones posture and balance you can see what sort of day theyve had. Looking into someones eyes you can see there soul and know what they are. But at the end of the day I find Boxing is about finding who you are after the first punch has landed. All the technique and knowledge in the world wont help if you cant fight, thats the bottom line.

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put WHAT on? What the HELL are you talking about? I asked you about elbows and you get all philosophical...seeing peoples souls, knowgin how their day went... apparently the elbows tell all. lol.

Von I like you, Bet you can fight ;D something tells me you can. You only get one chance as a rule in Boxing, and most of it is luck. Being at the right place at the right time, picking the right gym , coach and the people who will look after you.Ive talked to fighters 90 year old old time greats who wish they had there time again so they could do things different, thats called hindsight, experiance, its what we dont have first time round. Work ethic to go to a gym and work at skills for hours and have fun, making things work, spending up to a month just working on the mechanics of movement and why. Balance ,Perception , Movement Until they have the conception of WHY, its a waste of time. Like giving a18 year old a Ferrari as a first car we know why the insurance will be high tell that to the 18 year old he wont, until the crash. Give me a kid with a good work ethic every day of the week, over the kid whose got so called talent. Ive had them, but the ones that became World Champs worked that bit harder and wanted it more, and did what the nearlys didnt.

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Originally Posted by Scrap

Put it on to see the reaction Von, Boxing equates to everything. Just by looking at someones posture and balance you can see what sort of day theyve had. Looking into someones eyes you can see there soul and know what they are. But at the end of the day I find Boxing is about finding who you are after the first punch has landed. All the technique and knowledge in the world wont help if you cant fight, thats the bottom line.

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excellent read

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Originally Posted by Lords Gym

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Originally Posted by Scrap

Put it on to see the reaction Von, Boxing equates to everything. Just by looking at someones posture and balance you can see what sort of day theyve had. Looking into someones eyes you can see there soul and know what they are. But at the end of the day I find Boxing is about finding who you are after the first punch has landed. All the technique and knowledge in the world wont help if you cant fight, thats the bottom line.

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excellent read

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oh, brother. ::** lmao!

scrap my old friend, ya kill me!!! lol.

Scrap is a legend …

exercising the mind is as important as coming into the ring physically correct. Deciphering Scraps wisdom helps fire up some of those dormant neurons in the brain . O0

I'm going to try to guess what Scrap means. Maybe Scrap or someone else who is 100 % sure they understand him (perhaps Lords?) could tell me whether or not I'm on the right track.

The elbows tell a lot because the position of the elbows in relation to the body indicate where the body is leaning (posture reference)

The eyes might show something about how your opponent is coping but it's best to concentrate on motivating yourself and keeping your own efforts going (eyes, soul reference)

Put it on = Give it a go?

All the technique and knowledge in the world won't help if you can't fight = even if you see the tell you need some aggression and bravery or bite to make the most of it.

Perhaps there's also the risk that even with very good eyes for what your opponent does you are still going to get hit sometimes therefore you need to be able to take a few.

Maybe there is no one perfect body part to watch which tells everything.

Is that what you meant Scrap?

The wider the elbow the easier it is to parry if it's only a jab.

If it's wider again it's a hook - unless it's nice and compact in which case might need an awareness of the feet too perhaps?

Maybe the difference between a really nice compact hook and a jab could be distance?

What's scrap saying which isn't to understand? ;)

makes perfect sense to me... He's just getting you thinking....


When you get educated in school you where never given the answer outright where you? :)

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Originally Posted by Chris N.

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Originally Posted by ThomasTabin

Do you tape targets on your mirror/bags Chris?

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I have tape that runs around where the belly is and another that goes around where the head is, but I haven't put any targets represent the solarplexus/liver.

I don't have have my mirror marked. It sounds like a good idea though, it'd make it easier to imagine throwing counters to the liver/solarplexus, and chin. I'll give it shot.

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When you shadowbox in your mirror you can't really visualize your opponent because you're focusing on yourself. If you put targets on the mirror to represent your opponent you can see both him and yourself all at once. I think this seeing of both you and your opponent is critical and to my knowledge this is the only training tool that will work that part of your brain. Helps you see everything in other words. A great training tool.

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Originally Posted by ThomasTabin

When you shadowbox in your mirror you can't really visualize your opponent because you're focusing on yourself. If you put targets on the mirror to represent your opponent you can see both him and yourself all at once. I think this seeing of both you and your opponent is critical and to my knowledge this is the only training tool that will work that part of your brain. Helps you see everything in other words. A great training tool.

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Thanks Thomas, I've started working on it. Although it still takes some getting used to it, I feel it does make it easier to see the targets. Now I'm really focussing on a shot to the solarplexus, liver and chin while before it wasn't always the case. The big thing I want to practice is working on the different shifts/footwork while I'm working the mirror or the bags. I'm trying to keep in mind where I want to be, trying to visualize my opponent's lead and rear hand while I'm moving around.

Chris tape a nought and crosses on the mirror 8" squares 9 of them dont move the head move the feet and knees to change levels and direction and distance not the head its a very good routine.

I'm alright, I haven't had any trouble changing levels, but I can use that setup to focus on different sections.

You remember Andre from here right? He was a very knowledgable poster with a background in boxing and Wing Chun. He was talking about the centerline theory from Kung fu. He said how you can put a line/tape vertically down the middle of the mirror/bag, the idea is that as as apart of defense with a simple shift or upper body movement you can dodge a punch, or take some steam off it. Controlling the opponent's centerline either by occupying it, or putting them in a bad angle such as taking the outside position. I find the concepts helpful, and I think it's important to establish an offense while at the same time making your opponent readjust. Now I'm not trying to teach anyone how to suck an egg, or trying to convert the choir, but I find that these are strong concepts that help aid developement.

I'm not sure if you've seen this artical by Andre: http://saddoboxing.com/andre.html It's lead me to look outside the square ring for answers.