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I'll still take K Shamrock. Back in his prime that guy was awesome. I'll give a prime shamrock better odds against tyson that a prime fedor aNY DAY. I think shamrock could have taken fedor because ken was SO freakin strong and his ground game was amazing.
I can hear "you're an idiot" coming already. lol.
NB: this isn't your FAVORITE, but your opinion of the "greatest" ever.
well Ken's prime was his pancrase years. And he obviously wasted a number of his best years in the WWF. That being said Ken never seemed to evolve w/ the sport as it changed over the years, and seemed to have stamina issues sometimes. Ken in his day was Fedor like. Good power, good hand speed, not real technical w/his striking and very solid on the ground. Ken just didn't do enough in his career for me to call him the greatest. To me at the moment its Fedor b/c of the names on his list, the ability to battle back and the variety of way he has won. I think Shogun and GSP have the all around skill and athleticism to go down as the best of all time.
Sorry guys, for me its Randy. Yes half of that is really my heart saying it simply becuase he's my favourite fighter but when you take into consideration his age, his commitment, his skills and last but not least the fact that he brings a fantastic gameplan to a fight and ALMOST always executes it perfectly. Also he has evolved with the sport the ways others have not.
Randy Couture for me.
Couple of points on Ken. Kens greatest asset was his strength. He was an incredibly strong fighter. In his day he was a brawler with some sick ground skills. One of the most proficient leglock man in the business but for me even in his prime he would never survive in the sport today as a winner (IMO anyway)
I think Fedor will feature heavily in this thread.
Ken Shamrock is the one that got me into MMA.
It's hard not to say Fedor based on his fight record alone. However, imo, the greatest MMA fighter ever is
'the Gracie Hunter' Kazushi Sakuraba. The guy made Rocye Gracie quite after a 90min fight ??? Has beaten a few other Gracies. Would still be great today if he hadn't gone up in weight to challenge himself fighting the bigger guys.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...i_Sakuraba.jpg
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ei2q8bCLmsE[/youtube]
Sakuraba is a good entry w/ some great wins. He'd make my top 5
Choosing the greatest of any sport is never easy. This is what I think
Royce Gracie - As a huge Gracie fan watching him get destroyed by Hughes was painfull to watch. It was clear that his time in the sun was over but what he achieved in the early years even though he was facing guys who were not near his level was incredible. The losses to Saku and Hughes dented his reputation as did his poor performance against Tokoro. But for me he will always be THE MAN just like Ali is the Man in the boxing world of all time even though I think he would lose to a prime Tyson ( but that's all if's and buts). I put his name in here even though there is probably a hundred fighters today that could beat him
Kazushi Sakuraba - Awesome grappler ( would have loved to see him in ADCC competition to see just how good), incredible performer and showman and amazing box office draw. His battles with the gracies are legendary and all MMA fans should check them out. He would have been the greatest MMA figher ever if Pride looked after him a little better and not put him against bigger guys. He apparently drank a lot in his prime and if you combine this with a list of injuries the lengh of his arm and the fact that he has balls of steel and would not back down from anything. These things were never going to help him but then again these flaws in his career are what made him the icon he is to many MMA fans. My fav fighter of all time but I wish he would retire and just relax untill he reaches old age...
While I respect Ken Shamrock for what he has done is his pancrase years ( subs win overs Bas) and the earlier UFC's I've personally never had him near a top 10 list.
Agree with comments about Randy.
There is no one in history who has shown me that they could beat Fedor in unarmed combat. Powerfull yet unorthodox striking, unflappable, quick, strong, comfortable in whatever postion and the best game plan in MMA.
I agree with Van about GSP and Shogun. If BJ had his head on the last couple of years he would have been in my top 3
There is no denying BJ's talent and his career is far from over, but he needs to show more consistancy and some big wins to climb into the all time list. He really shouldn't fight over 155. If Chuck beats Rampage and then goes on to beat some combination of Henderson/Arona/Silva/Shogun I'd have to give him a top 5 spot as well. Randy is an amazing fighter but w/ two dramatic KO's from Chuck I can't put him ahead of the Iceman. And how about this Sokoudju kid? I need to see him really get in the trenches w/someone before we can see what he is made of.
Rickson Gracie - no questions about it in my mind.
I'm gonna go with the Brockton Bomber. Line me up Fedor, Nogs, and Gonzo and I'll KTFO all them kidds in the same night sunn. LOL
You got to be kidding me ???Quote:
Originally Posted by Preme
I find it extremely convenient that Rickson retired when he did and that he never went to compete in Pancrase against what at the time were the best MMA fighters of that infant period of the sport. If you take away Funaki from his record all it is is a bunch of cans. Rickson might be the greatest Gracie fighter but as we are seeing the Gracie name does not hold the prestige in MMA as it once did. They haven't had a important win in quite some time. All time great sumbission artist and wrestler sure...ATG mma fighter...no way
well there should be questions considering he hardly fought anyone great in MMA , I have seen his documentary and he appears to be pretty amazing but I just haven't seen him fight anyone good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Preme
Oh i thought we were excluding Rickson? Of course its Rickson but i thought that was a given.
If Rickson Gracie fought King Kong then the outcome would be....
Rickon by armbar
Rickson could armbar Kong Kong while triangling Godzilla and putting Mothra in a Kimura. The man has eight arms!!!
In all seriousness though, saying Rickson isn't an ATG is absurd. He was the best in the world when the sport was in it's infancy. No one says Jack Johnson wasn't an ATG because he likely couldn't hang with today's HW's.
And as far as running from the Pancrase boys, Shamrock was thier best, and Royce dealt with him. Rickson>Royce. Royce will even tell you that. And unlike most of the Gracies, Rickson could actually crack a little.
Rickson is a 7th Degree Black Belt Open Class Champion of the Gracie Family, whose technique is considered to be the finest expression of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu in the world. His innate talent and early mastery of the sport have resulted in an impeccable undefeated record in more than 400 fights, including Jiu-Jitsu tournaments, free-style wrestling, Sambo, open weight free-style competitions, and no holds barred challenge matches. Rickson is a two time Brazilian Champion in free-style wrestling, a Gold Medal Winner of Sambo, and for almost two decades he has been the middle-heavyweight and no weight division World Jiu-Jitsu Champion. Most recently, he conquered Japan's elite fighting in a tournament, the Japan Open Vale Tudo, winning both in 1994 and 1995. At this time, Rickson was acknowledged by the Japanese for possessing the Samurai Spirit.Quote:
Originally Posted by VanChilds
In the 1997 Pride 1 Vale Tudo match in Japan's Tokyo Dome (before 47,860 spectators), he defeated Japan's top ranked fighter, Nobuhiko Takada, in 4:47 of the first round. A year later, to the day, in the 1998 Pride 4 Vale Tudo match, Rickson defended his title. In the most awaited rematch in martial arts history, drawing an overwhelming 50,000 spectators to Japan's Tokyo Dome, Rickson defeated Takata once again. At Colosseum 2000, held at the Tokyo Dome, broadcast to 30 million TV Tokyo viewers (the highest viewed television program for its time slot), Rickson fought Japan's number one fighter, Masakatsu Funaki. He defeated his opponent with a rear naked choke in 11:46 of the first round.
Helio was once asked about Rickson legendary 400 -0 record. His response was if Rickson was 400-0 then he might as well be 1 million -0. If the patriarch of your own family calls your record BS then I dont think it counts for much. And what the hell is middle-hw and no weight div. World JJ champion for two decades supposed to mean? The mundials are held every year and I'm pretty sure Rickson hasn't won it every year for 20 years. Everything about this guy is hype. He has one decent opponent on his record. Maybe rickson would have thrashed all of the Pancrase boys who knows. The point is he chose not to compete against them. I personally think Jack Johnson would still do well against todays HWs, but one can't say that he completely ignored the top fighters in his genre at the time. My wife can claim to the world I have a 10 inch cock, but until I throw it out on the table its nothing more than speculation. If you don't fight the best around then all you are is a big "what could have been". Once again is the guy a great innovator of MMA...sure...Is he a legendary grappler and submissoin wrestler?....absolutely....Has he done anything to prove(notice I said prove) he could hang with the likes of Fedor, Couture, Liddle, Shogun, Wandy, Gomi, BJ, GSP, Nogs in a true MMA match? Not even close. I know its contested by Rickson but he does have an official loss to Ron Tripp in the 1993 US Sambo Championships.
I agree with most of your most, not the part about JJ being able to hang with today's heavies, and I still contend he was the most dominant fighter in MMA in it's infancy, and is therefore an ATG. I really don't think weather he could take Fedor or Nogs has any relevance.Quote:
Originally Posted by VanChilds
Still... cc for you buddy, cause I really needed a good laugh right now.
No love for Bas? That guy to me is definately one of the all time greats. He was definately a true MMAist back when it was an infant sport. He dominated everywhere he went, and STILL is involved heavily with the sport.
Outside of that, definately Fedor is well on his way. He's defeated quality opponents time and time again. Barring some sort of horrible crash and burn, he will definately be one of, if not the greatest, MMAist of all time. I'm just withholding judgment until I can see him against some of the UFC guys.
Frank Shamrock
Frank would make my list, but he could have done so much more to improve his legacy and chose not to and only fight sparingly against handpicked opponents. The Baroni fight will show alot about where Frank still is.
how do you think he'd do? I'm not trying to sound smart. Personally, I think arlovski and tim sylvia are very under-rated. I think aa is better than sylvia (sylvia just has his number) and would give fedor a decent match. the guy is so heavy handed. I think randy in his day would also do well, but is a bit too old for fedor. he overcame sylvia b/c it was a bad matchup for tim. randy is smaller and much faster and that gave him fits, but fedor is probably as fast.Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavy D
I think Randy would give Fedor a good fight, but eventually get subbed or TKO'd through GNP. AA is so hard to figure. He hasn't shown enough consistancy. He has very fast hands w/good power, but he looked like he lost his nerve in the Werdum fight. I think Fedor would eventually get the fight to ground and sub him. Now Tim to me just isn't athletic enough. I don't think he hits hard enough to keep Fedor on the end of his jab and eventually gets KO'd
Well...let's see:
Randy: Great matchup against Fedor potentially. Randy is pretty obviously not intimidated by ANYBODY's standup...he outstruck Sylvia and outstruck Chuck once (actually, I think possibly all 3 times, until he caught those two shots in the last two). His wrestling skills are second to none. He has incredible strength. He excels at fighting from the clinch, which is also one of Fedor's strengths. Coleman did pretty damned well against Fedor. Look for Randy to do better. I thinkt he most important thing going for Randy is something that CC learned before getting KTFOd...the UFC ground game is a LOT different than Pride's. Those elbows can get real nasty, even the smaller ones over time. And Fedor tends to show damage VERY badly. I give Randy an excellent chance.
AA: I really don't like him. Not at all. But I still give him a pretty good chance against Fedor as long as he has some balls. He also comes from a Sambo background, so he may have some decent ground game...we never had a chance to see. But those heavy hands may give him the chance he needs to knock Fedor down. Only problem is that I have trouble seeing him FINISHING Fedor. If he follows the knockdown up with GnP, I just see him getting subbed or reversed into some brutal GnP. Same with a submission attempt. I think his one real chance is to knock Fedor out, and follow up with a VERY quick flurry, hoping to draw a premature stoppage.
Sylvia: He's boring, but he's good. I pretty much guarantee that this ends with a submission by Fedor or a unanimous decision for Sylvia. He needs to stay away and box Fedor. Fedor needs to take him down and end it. One of Fedor's greatest strengths is that he has unnaturally long arms. Sylvia has unnaturally long everything....he's friggin huge. He has to be smart and play to that. I give him a small chance to win a boring fight.
pretty spot on HeavyQuote:
Originally Posted by Heavy D
am I the only person who said Frank Shamrock ???
I think he is definately in the mix, but the way he has barely fought over the past years its hard to know where he stands.Quote:
Originally Posted by Majesty