Do you guys Agree with Max Kellerman

Max Kellerman said that Oscar never beat a top fighter in there prime.

I disagree he plainly beat Trinidad, but though he never beat a great in their prime he's beaten, had close fights with more than one. Both his fights with Mosley were close, and he won the second, He beat JCC twice, He fought a close fight against Pernell that I thought was pretty much a draw though I could see Pernell taking it.

I scored the Trinidad fight a draw. If you thought Oscar won, then obviously that would count as a win against a top fighter in their prime.

I thought Quartey clearly beat Oscar and that Oscar got a gift decision. If you felt Oscar won, then that would count as a win against a top fighter in their prime.

Other than that, his wins against big name opponents (Whitaker, Chavez) were when those guys were way past their prime (and plenty of people think Whitaker beat him).

you guys think when he beat vargas that he was way past it or was DLH on point that night.

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Originally Posted by 'The Boxer'

you guys think when he beat vargas that he was way past it or was DLH on point that night.

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I think Vargas is not a "top fighter" so it's irrelevant. Same goes for Quartey (though I thought Quartey won that fight anyway).

Tito is the only top fighter Oscar ever beat in his prime, IMO. Though the judges obviously disagreed.

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Originally Posted by shza

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Originally Posted by 'The Boxer'

you guys think when he beat vargas that he was way past it or was DLH on point that night.

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I think Vargas is not a "top fighter" so it's irrelevant. Same goes for Quartey (though I thought Quartey won that fight anyway).

Tito is the only top fighter Oscar ever beat in his prime, IMO. Though the judges obviously disagreed.

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Oh Alright Then

As everyone's opinion here is on point & valid...basically because it's their opinion...I gotta chuck mine in.

He went above & beyond the call of duty against Quartey, Vargas, & Tito & beat all of them in their primes & when they were on the cusp of greatness.

Honestly...I usually agree with Max...but not here.

Max has a cornucopia of knowledge that is genrally spot on & overflowing...but he's wrong here.

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Originally Posted by wacko3205

As everyone's opinion here is on point & valid...basically because it's their opinion...I gotta chuck mine in.

He went above & beyond the call of duty against Quartey, Vargas, & Tito & beat all of them in their primes & when they were on the cusp of greatness.

Honestly...I usually agree with Max...but not here.

Max has a cornucopia of knowledge that is genrally spot on & overflowing...but he's wrong here.

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Do you really think Quartey and Vargas are on the same level as the top guys Oscar has lost to though? B-Hop, Floyd, Shane . . . . Those guys are all first-ballot HOF material. Tito is too, so I credit Oscar there. But Quartey and Vargas just aren't.

8) I sure do think so. Vargas has had some back problems we know but Quartay is alway in the mix just as Vargas was with Shane during the first fight. 8)

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Originally Posted by Rick_Rack

8) I sure do think so Vargas has had some back problems we know but Quartay is alway in the mix just as Vargas was with Shane during the first fight. 8)

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But they're not going into the HOF is the point.

8) They are former world champions so if they dont make the hall of fame doesnt mean they arnt or werent good fighters. 8)

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Originally Posted by 'The Boxer'

Max Kellerman said that Oscar never beat a top fighter in there prime.

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Kellerman wouldn’t know a boxing glove if he was wearing it. Can’t stand the muppet .

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Originally Posted by shza

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Originally Posted by wacko3205

As everyone's opinion here is on point & valid...basically because it's their opinion...I gotta chuck mine in.

He went above & beyond the call of duty against Quartey, Vargas, & Tito & beat all of them in their primes & when they were on the cusp of greatness.

Honestly...I usually agree with Max...but not here.

Max has a cornucopia of knowledge that is genrally spot on & overflowing...but he's wrong here.

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Do you really think Quartey and Vargas are on the same level as the top guys Oscar has lost to though? B-Hop, Floyd, Shane . . . . Those guys are all first-ballot HOF material. Tito is too, so I credit Oscar there. But Quartey and Vargas just aren't.

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Come on now...I never said anything like that...& you know me well enough to know that I don't...but everyone saying that theyr'e not worthy opponents...that's just horse shit.

They were in their prime & they were world class tooth chippers.

They deserve respect...even though I don't respect them. ;D

Kellerman looks like a very nervous Bud Bundy from Married With Children. ;D ;D

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Originally Posted by wacko3205

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Originally Posted by shza

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Originally Posted by wacko3205

As everyone's opinion here is on point & valid...basically because it's their opinion...I gotta chuck mine in.

He went above & beyond the call of duty against Quartey, Vargas, & Tito & beat all of them in their primes & when they were on the cusp of greatness.

Honestly...I usually agree with Max...but not here.

Max has a cornucopia of knowledge that is genrally spot on & overflowing...but he's wrong here.

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Do you really think Quartey and Vargas are on the same level as the top guys Oscar has lost to though? B-Hop, Floyd, Shane . . . . Those guys are all first-ballot HOF material. Tito is too, so I credit Oscar there. But Quartey and Vargas just aren't.

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Come on now...I never said anything like that...& you know me well enough to know that I don't...but everyone saying that theyr'e not worthy opponents...that's just horse shit.

They were in their prime & they were world class tooth chippers.

They deserve respect...even though I don't respect them. ;D

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That's fair--and I know you didn't say that. But this whole thread was about what Kellerman said, which maybe I'm just misremembering, but I thought he said something like "elite fighters in their prime." So I think we're really just debating what the space is between being "worthy" and being "elite."

I definitely agree with you that they were worthy. And I credit Oscar especially for the Vargas win, given that Vargas was completely roided out at the time. I just don't think I call them "elite."

Mosley was pretty much in his prime the second time around. And not many fighters have beaten top fighters in their prime because...top fighters in their prime just don't get beat often.

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Originally Posted by Rick_Rack

8) They are former world champions so if they dont make the hall of fame doesnt mean they arnt or werent good fighters. 8)

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Good observation. Bert Sugar is not that good a fighter. ??? ::** >:mad

Max kellerman is a very knowledgeable boxing pundit but he has said some absurd things in the past, the most recent was that "it was a virtuoso performance for floyd against oscar". I don't know what fight kellerman was watching but it was a lot closer than that could have even been a draw. and recently he also compared mallignaggi to Billy conn and that was just outlandish.

Oscar beat trinidad, mosley, vargas, quartey in their prime, for a boxing analyst kellerman should separate himself from the ignorant people who judge a fighter strictly with the face value of their record.

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Originally Posted by shza

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Originally Posted by wacko3205

As everyone's opinion here is on point & valid...basically because it's their opinion...I gotta chuck mine in.

He went above & beyond the call of duty against Quartey, Vargas, & Tito & beat all of them in their primes & when they were on the cusp of greatness.

Honestly...I usually agree with Max...but not here.

Max has a cornucopia of knowledge that is genrally spot on & overflowing...but he's wrong here.

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Do you really think Quartey and Vargas are on the same level as the top guys Oscar has lost to though? B-Hop, Floyd, Shane . . . . Those guys are all first-ballot HOF material. Tito is too, so I credit Oscar there. But Quartey and Vargas just aren't.

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No Vargas is not on the level of those guys, and Quartey is far from it. But I think the talk of Oscar not being great is not fair. He is not top 20 all time great and how can he be, but he is good. His power left him at 140. I do not even think Tito is in the B-hop, Shane,Floyd class. Who did he really beat? Joppy? He almost lost to Oscar and lost to Hopkins and Winky bad.

Poor decisions or not, fact is Oscar is 0-5 in super fights!
Trinidad was a poor decision.
Mosley 1 he lost
Mosley 2 was a poor decision
Hopkins he lost
Floyd he lost

These fights are his only super fights, Whitaker and Chavez were past their best and Quartey although unbeaten at the time isn't on the elite list.
To his credit he has fought the best out there but has no big W next to anyone in Superfights!
Kellerman is probably right!

how do you guys rate Mosley then since he beat Oscar twice but no one else. I know he beat Vargas but Vargas is starting to look like a measuring stick on who knocks him out fastest. None of the guys who are boxing now have really been the king of the whole thing like Sugar Ray Leonard was when Ray beat all of his generation- Ray was 5-1-1 against the guys who were Benitez,Hearns,Duran,Hagler. Bernard has been the most dominant knocking out Oscar and Tito yet he was too big for Oscar.. I am not sure any of them have really shown alot of domination except for Bernard who I think is not in the group because of size. Although they all look good against Vargas. Vargas seems to be the highlight clip for the three of them Tito, Mosley and Oscar. I hope Mayweather comes along and beats Mosley. I know he would fight Tito yet Tito in my mind is pretty big. But if he beat Tito, Mosley and Oscar, and then maybe Winky, he would be the main guy like Ray was and go down very well. Since no one else has really dominated. Mosley lost to Forrest twice. Oscar lost 5 top fights, Tito lost to Bernard and Winky. No one is dominating.. What is missing now is knockouts which would sort of be a claim of domination.. That is where Bernard comes out ahead. And since they all knocked out Vargas you have to think that maybe Vargas is not a guy people should be impressed with if they beat him. Vargas seems to be a guy who guys beat if they qualify for being in the top money bracket but nothing else. So who do you guys think is the leader of the current generation of Mayweather,Mosley,Tito,Oscar,Winky,Bernard?

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Originally Posted by LegendBoxing65

how do you guys rate Mosley then since he beat Oscar twice but no one else. I know he beat Vargas but Vargas is starting to look like a measuring stick on who knocks him out fastest. None of the guys who are boxing now have really been the king of the whole thing like Sugar Ray Leonard was when Ray beat all of his generation- Ray was 5-1-1 against the guys who were Benitez,Hearns,Duran,Hagler. Bernard has been the most dominant knocking out Oscar and Tito yet he was too big for Oscar.. I am not sure any of them have really shown alot of domination except for Bernard who I think is not in the group because of size. Although they all look good against Vargas. Vargas seems to be the highlight clip for the three of them Tito, Mosley and Oscar. I hope Mayweather comes along and beats Mosley. I know he would fight Tito yet Tito in my mind is pretty big. But if he beat Tito, Mosley and Oscar, and then maybe Winky, he would be the main guy like Ray was and go down very well. Since no one else has really dominated. Mosley lost to Forrest twice. Oscar lost 5 top fights, Tito lost to Bernard and Winky. No one is dominating.. What is missing now is knockouts which would sort of be a claim of domination.. That is where Bernard comes out ahead. And since they all knocked out Vargas you have to think that maybe Vargas is not a guy people should be impressed with if they beat him. Vargas seems to be a guy who guys beat if they qualify for being in the top money bracket but nothing else. So who do you guys think is the leader of the current generation of Mayweather,Mosley,Tito,Oscar,Winky,Bernard?

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I think Floyd is the new generation and should not be counted as part of the last era of Mously Oscar Tito B-Hop. The fact is all those guys are past their prime and a win against any of them would not change his status at the moment.

I do agree with Kellerman when he sais Oscar has not beat an elite fighter in his prime. I think Oscar showed that he could beat Tito but he didn't do it. He showed that he could beat Mously but he didn't do it. To his credit he has alwais made it a close tough fight but he alwais came a little short in the end.

As for your list. I would rate them like this:

Maywether
B-Hop
Tito
Mously
Oscar

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Originally Posted by The Rookie Fan

As for your list. I would rate them like this:

Maywether
B-Hop
Tito
Mously
Oscar

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I rate them:

Mayweather
B-Hop
*Winky Wright*
Mosley
Oscar
Tito

I can't credit Tito for the "win" over Oscar. No way he should have won on points. And once you take that W from him, I don't see how you possibly put him above any of these other guys. I think you have to put him in the place you wanted to put Oscar: never beat an elite fighter in his prime. Seriously, I think Tito is far and away the most one-dimensional guy on this list, and possibly a full step down from the rest of them.

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Originally Posted by shza

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Originally Posted by The Rookie Fan

As for your list. I would rate them like this:

Maywether
B-Hop
Tito
Mously
Oscar

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I rate them:

Mayweather
B-Hop
*Winky Wright*
Mosley
Oscar
Tito

I can't credit Tito for the "win" over Oscar. No way he should have won on points. And once you take that W from him, I don't see how you possibly put him above any of these other guys. I think you have to put him in the place you wanted to put Oscar: never beat an elite fighter in his prime. Seriously, I think Tito is far and away the most one-dimensional guy on this list, and possibly a full step down from the rest of them.

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I'm sorry but I disagree. Tito is criticized terribly for his fight with Wright but Wright had the perfect style for Tito and Tito was passed his prime and over his weight class.

At 147 there was no one better than him. Fine take the out the win over Oscar, lets call it a draw, which is what I think it should have been, now tell me what has Oscar or Mously done to make them better than Tito?? I remember them fighting eachother and thinking they looked like to amateurs throwing flurries at eachother and the deafens went out the window. If eather of them would've tried to box the other it would have been much easier fight. And if eather of them fought Tito in the same way they fought eachother they would've had their a**es handed to them inside of 8 rounds.

If you take every common opponent that they have, with the exception of Winky, Tito did far better than both Mously and DLH and Tito got them first when they were still young, hungry and undefeated.

I really would have loved to see Tito fight Mously, it is the only guy he didn't fight because he came up at the same time Tito moved to 154. I think Tito would KhimTFO.

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Originally Posted by The Rookie Fan

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Originally Posted by shza

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Originally Posted by The Rookie Fan

As for your list. I would rate them like this:

Maywether
B-Hop
Tito
Mously
Oscar

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I rate them:

Mayweather
B-Hop
*Winky Wright*
Mosley
Oscar
Tito

I can't credit Tito for the "win" over Oscar. No way he should have won on points. And once you take that W from him, I don't see how you possibly put him above any of these other guys. I think you have to put him in the place you wanted to put Oscar: never beat an elite fighter in his prime. Seriously, I think Tito is far and away the most one-dimensional guy on this list, and possibly a full step down from the rest of them.

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I'm sorry but I disagree. Tito is criticized terribly for his fight with Wright but Wright had the perfect style for Tito and Tito was passed his prime and over his weight class.

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Tito is naturally bigger than both Shane and Oscar--this "out of his weight class" thing is silly. He lost 12 straight rounds to Winky at 154--the same weight at which Mosley (in the first fight, at least; I think in both) beat Oscar far more convincingly than Tito did.

If any of these three gets an excuse for losses at 154, it's Shane. He's way smaller than those guys.

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Originally Posted by The Rookie Fan

At 147 there was no one better than him. Fine take the out the win over Oscar, lets call it a draw, which is what I think it should have been, now tell me what has Oscar or Mously done to make them better than Tito??

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Well, they're just far more multi-dimensional fighters. If you want specifics: (1) Mosley beat Oscar clearly in their first fight. Tito was not able to do that. (2) Oscar beat Tito. I don't see a draw there. And I see what could have been yet another total domination of Tito (a la Winky) if Oscar had just kept up what he had done the rest of the fight. There was no reason to worry at that point--Tito hadn't landed anything scary and wasn't going to. Oscar could easily have won that fight 118-110.

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Originally Posted by The Rookie Fan

I remember them fighting eachother and thinking they looked like to amateurs throwing flurries at eachother and the deafens went out the window. If eather of them would've tried to box the other it would have been much easier fight. And if eather of them fought Tito in the same way they fought eachother they would've had their a**es handed to them inside of 8 rounds.

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That's silly. Obviously they wouldn't have fought the same way against Tito that they did against each other. We don't even have to speculate--we have evidence (Oscar vs. Tito).

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Originally Posted by The Rookie Fan

If you take every common opponent that they have, with the exception of Winky, Tito did far better than both Mously and DLH and Tito got them first when they were still young, hungry and undefeated.

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Why except Winky? That fight was especially telling re Tito. But I disagree anyway.

Common opponents:

Shane/Tito - Oscar, Winky, Vargas. Let's forget about Vargas. Obviously Shane handled him easier, but Vargas was well beyond shot at that point. But as to the other two, Shane looked better against BOTH of them.

Oscar/Tito - B-Hop, Vargas. We can discount Vargas again since Tito had already broken him (some say) and he was tremendously juiced on steroids against Oscar. W/r/t B-hop, yes he finished Oscar earlier than he did Tito, but up until that point Oscar was at least competitive. Tito, as against Wright, was utterly dominated and probably didn't win a single round. More evidence that, against the truly great, Tito appears as a lower-tier, and entirely one-dimensional, fighter. Shane and Oscar don't.

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Originally Posted by The Rookie Fan

I really would have loved to see Tito fight Mously, it is the only guy he didn't fight because he came up at the same time Tito moved to 154. I think Tito would KhimTFO.

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Given that Mosley's NEVER BEEN KNOCKED OUT HIS ENTIRE CAREER, that seems like an odd pick. The safe bet is Mosley UD.

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Originally Posted by shza

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Originally Posted by The Rookie Fan

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Originally Posted by shza

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Originally Posted by The Rookie Fan

As for your list. I would rate them like this:

Maywether
B-Hop
Tito
Mously
Oscar

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I rate them:

Mayweather
B-Hop
*Winky Wright*
Mosley
Oscar
Tito

I can't credit Tito for the "win" over Oscar. No way he should have won on points. And once you take that W from him, I don't see how you possibly put him above any of these other guys. I think you have to put him in the place you wanted to put Oscar: never beat an elite fighter in his prime. Seriously, I think Tito is far and away the most one-dimensional guy on this list, and possibly a full step down from the rest of them.

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I'm sorry but I disagree. Tito is criticized terribly for his fight with Wright but Wright had the perfect style for Tito and Tito was passed his prime and over his weight class.

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Tito is naturally bigger than both Shane and Oscar--this "out of his weight class" thing is silly. He lost 12 straight rounds to Winky at 154--the same weight at which Mosley (in the first fight, at least; I think in both) beat Oscar far more convincingly than Tito did.

If any of these three gets an excuse for losses at 154, it's Shane. He's way smaller than those guys.

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Originally Posted by The Rookie Fan

At 147 there was no one better than him. Fine take the out the win over Oscar, lets call it a draw, which is what I think it should have been, now tell me what has Oscar or Mously done to make them better than Tito??

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Well, they're just far more multi-dimensional fighters. If you want specifics: (1) Mosley beat Oscar clearly in their first fight. Tito was not able to do that. (2) Oscar beat Tito. I don't see a draw there. And I see what could have been yet another total domination of Tito (a la Winky) if Oscar had just kept up what he had done the rest of the fight. There was no reason to worry at that point--Tito hadn't landed anything scary and wasn't going to. Oscar could easily have won that fight 118-110.

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Originally Posted by The Rookie Fan

I remember them fighting eachother and thinking they looked like to amateurs throwing flurries at eachother and the deafens went out the window. If eather of them would've tried to box the other it would have been much easier fight. And if eather of them fought Tito in the same way they fought eachother they would've had their a**es handed to them inside of 8 rounds.

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That's silly. Obviously they wouldn't have fought the same way against Tito that they did against each other. We don't even have to speculate--we have evidence (Oscar vs. Tito).

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Originally Posted by The Rookie Fan

If you take every common opponent that they have, with the exception of Winky, Tito did far better than both Mously and DLH and Tito got them first when they were still young, hungry and undefeated.

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Why except Winky? That fight was especially telling re Tito. But I disagree anyway.

Common opponents:

Shane/Tito - Oscar, Winky, Vargas. Let's forget about Vargas. Obviously Shane handled him easier, but Vargas was well beyond shot at that point. But as to the other two, Shane looked better against BOTH of them.

Oscar/Tito - B-Hop, Vargas. We can discount Vargas again since Tito had already broken him (some say) and he was tremendously juiced on steroids against Oscar. W/r/t B-hop, yes he finished Oscar earlier than he did Tito, but up until that point Oscar was at least competitive. Tito, as against Wright, was utterly dominated and probably didn't win a single round. More evidence that, against the truly great, Tito appears as a lower-tier, and entirely one-dimensional, fighter. Shane and Oscar don't.

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Originally Posted by The Rookie Fan

I really would have loved to see Tito fight Mously, it is the only guy he didn't fight because he came up at the same time Tito moved to 154. I think Tito would KhimTFO.

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Given that Mosley's NEVER BEEN KNOCKED OUT HIS ENTIRE CAREER, that seems like an odd pick. The safe bet is Mosley UD.

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LOL tried to sort out the quotes like you but am not very good at it yet and didn't wanna mess up the post....

Anyway, first, Tito fought Winky at 160 not 154. And Tito might have been taller than Oscar and Mously but he was a skinny guy and most would agree that he was not suited for the middleweight division.

You are right that Mously did better against Oscar. For some reason I was not considering him. When I wrote that I ment common opponents other than eachother if you know what I mean ???

DLH said it himself that in the last 3 rounds against Tito he was exhausted and had nothing left in the tank. If he had tried to mount any type of offensive he would've most likely been knocked down at some point. If there is one good thing about Tito is that he could punch hard throughout the 12 rounds. It is not a fact that DLH beat Trinidad so stop saying it like if it was. It is just your opinion and your point of view. Not everybody agrees on this including all three judges who scored that fight, and it is their opinion that counts.

Shane did not handle Vargas easier. The first fight was even untill they stopped it because of the swelling. And that was the same shot Vargas.

With Oscar you are forgetting Oba Carr, Yory Boy Campas (56-0 with 50 KO at the time) and Whitaker. Whitaker was past his prime on both fights not just against Tito and Whitaker himself said that Tito was much better than DLH. And no one put a beating on Vargas like Tito did, sorry. This was prime vargas, the one who beat Quartey and has a W against Winky.(Notice how I said "has a W" and not "beat"). Maybe Oscar won more rounds against B-Hop but it only took one good shot from him and Oscar folded and decided he didn't want anymore.

Mously got seriously hurt by Forrest. Are you going to tell me that Forrest hits harder than Tito ???. Mously is also not a defensive minded fighter. He has alwais counted on his speed and power. Ha can get hit and get hit often. He has a good chin but he would not have taken Tito's punch for long. It would be similar to Tito against Read. Read's speed was giving Tito problems until he got caught. Then it was all over.

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Originally Posted by LegendBoxing65

how do you guys rate Mosley then since he beat Oscar twice but no one else. I know he beat Vargas but Vargas is starting to look like a measuring stick on who knocks him out fastest. None of the guys who are boxing now have really been the king of the whole thing like Sugar Ray Leonard was when Ray beat all of his generation- Ray was 5-1-1 against the guys who were Benitez,Hearns,Duran,Hagler. Bernard has been the most dominant knocking out Oscar and Tito yet he was too big for Oscar.. I am not sure any of them have really shown alot of domination except for Bernard who I think is not in the group because of size. Although they all look good against Vargas. Vargas seems to be the highlight clip for the three of them Tito, Mosley and Oscar. I hope Mayweather comes along and beats Mosley. I know he would fight Tito yet Tito in my mind is pretty big. But if he beat Tito, Mosley and Oscar, and then maybe Winky, he would be the main guy like Ray was and go down very well. Since no one else has really dominated. Mosley lost to Forrest twice. Oscar lost 5 top fights, Tito lost to Bernard and Winky. No one is dominating.. What is missing now is knockouts which would sort of be a claim of domination.. That is where Bernard comes out ahead. And since they all knocked out Vargas you have to think that maybe Vargas is not a guy people should be impressed with if they beat him. Vargas seems to be a guy who guys beat if they qualify for being in the top money bracket but nothing else. So who do you guys think is the leader of the current generation of Mayweather,Mosley,Tito,Oscar,Winky,Bernard?

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I really disagree with the Vargas comments. The guy has lost to only the 3 top fighters in his era. It puts him in the same category as Hearns. He lost to Hagler, and SRL but he's still a damn good fighter. Vargas beat Winky, but lost to ODH,Tito,Mosley. How does that make him a bad fighter? He fought the best in his time frame and so what he lost some. I can't stand it when a fighter becomes crap when they lose. The guy was a very very solid fighter. And his losses to the best guys in his division don't change that at all.

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Originally Posted by wacko3205

As everyone's opinion here is on point & valid...basically because it's their opinion...I gotta chuck mine in.

He went above & beyond the call of duty against Quartey, Vargas, & Tito & beat all of them in their primes & when they were on the cusp of greatness.

Honestly...I usually agree with Max...but not here.

Max has a cornucopia of knowledge that is genrally spot on & overflowing...but he's wrong here.

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:coolclick: You promised we would have a six pack of natural ice together, I guess it will never happen though.

1. It's no way in hell Vargas was in his prime when he fought Oscar, and he was no where near greatness. Tito had beat him half to death, and his next two fights his corner had to sit down with him and ask was he committed to a comeback because of his performances.
2. The Trinidad fight was controversial but nevertheless it was a Tito victory. On top of that Oscar has faded in fights late with Mosley, Hopkins, Mayweather, Sturm. We already know he was faded in the Tito fight, how do you think it would have ended up with him being in there with the best finisher in the business (at the time), I think he lost fair and square because of his choice.
3. Quartey was a close fight that the Majority of the fans thought Ike won (sportswriters) but nevertheless it was close. It just puzzles me to this day that Oscar gets credit for the fights he was robbed in (supposedly) and in fights where he robbed his opponent (Whitaker, Quartey, Sturm). How the hell does that work.

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Originally Posted by luvfightgame

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Originally Posted by LegendBoxing65

how do you guys rate Mosley then since he beat Oscar twice but no one else. I know he beat Vargas but Vargas is starting to look like a measuring stick on who knocks him out fastest. None of the guys who are boxing now have really been the king of the whole thing like Sugar Ray Leonard was when Ray beat all of his generation- Ray was 5-1-1 against the guys who were Benitez,Hearns,Duran,Hagler. Bernard has been the most dominant knocking out Oscar and Tito yet he was too big for Oscar.. I am not sure any of them have really shown alot of domination except for Bernard who I think is not in the group because of size. Although they all look good against Vargas. Vargas seems to be the highlight clip for the three of them Tito, Mosley and Oscar. I hope Mayweather comes along and beats Mosley. I know he would fight Tito yet Tito in my mind is pretty big. But if he beat Tito, Mosley and Oscar, and then maybe Winky, he would be the main guy like Ray was and go down very well. Since no one else has really dominated. Mosley lost to Forrest twice. Oscar lost 5 top fights, Tito lost to Bernard and Winky. No one is dominating.. What is missing now is knockouts which would sort of be a claim of domination.. That is where Bernard comes out ahead. And since they all knocked out Vargas you have to think that maybe Vargas is not a guy people should be impressed with if they beat him. Vargas seems to be a guy who guys beat if they qualify for being in the top money bracket but nothing else. So who do you guys think is the leader of the current generation of Mayweather,Mosley,Tito,Oscar,Winky,Bernard?

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I really disagree with the Vargas comments. The guy has lost to only the 3 top fighters in his era. It puts him in the same category as Hearns. He lost to Hagler, and SRL but he's still a damn good fighter. Vargas beat Winky, but lost to ODH,Tito,Mosley. How does that make him a bad fighter? He fought the best in his time frame and so what he lost some. I can't stand it when a fighter becomes crap when they lose. The guy was a very very solid fighter. And his losses to the best guys in his division don't change that at all.

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Yes, I agree. Vargas is one tough fighter.

He was giving Moulsy hell in their first fight. If it was not fot that swollen eye who knows what would have happend. He was just too "macho" for his own good. He took on Marquez, Campas, Winky, Quartey, Tito, Oscar and Mously pretty much back to back, with only 2 (that I can remember) fights with lesser opponents in between. One of these lesser opponents was Wilfredo Rivera who, even though is not top quality, is also a real tough guy who gave Mously some trouble and dropped Vargas with a perfect right before Vargas came back and KOed him. His career was way to fast tracked, which I don't understand for such a young fighter. I have great respect for Vargas and IMHO he puts alot of these undefeated overprotected fighters to shame. No I am not talking about Floyd before anyone starts yelling "Floyd Hater"... :laugh:

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Originally Posted by The Rookie Fan

Yes, I agree. Vargas is one tough fighter.

He was giving Moulsy hell in their first fight. If it was not fot that swollen eye who knows what would have happend.

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I thought he looked awful in that fight and didn't win more than a round.... Yes, he was going forward, but he wasn't throwing punches. It was strange to watch. It was almost like walking someone down, except instead of ever throwing anything, he was repeatedly getting hit in the face. I don't know how that's giving someone hell.

Oscar has just been part of too many shady decisions. He got wins when he didn't win, and he got losses when he didn't lose. Bottom line.

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Originally Posted by The Rookie Fan

LOL tried to sort out the quotes like you but am not very good at it yet and didn't wanna mess up the post....

Anyway, first, Tito fought Winky at 160 not 154. And Tito might have been taller than Oscar and Mously but he was a skinny guy and most would agree that he was not suited for the middleweight division.

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Haha. No worries. You're right about it being at 160. But to be fair, Winky was the one coming up in weight for that fight. Trinidad had fought there and held titles--it was Winky's first fight up from 154.

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Originally Posted by The Rookie Fan

Shane did not handle Vargas easier. The first fight was even untill they stopped it because of the swelling. And that was the same shot Vargas.

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As per my other post, I really disagree. I didn't think that fight was anywhere near even. I thought Vargas looked horrible and won maybe 2 rounds. He would have been KO'd if the fight had continued.

I'm not going to respond to everything. You're right that I forgot about Campas and Carr (I don't think the way past his prime Whittaker really matters)--good point there. For a lot of the rest of it, I think we just disagree because we saw the fights differently. Which is good and fair, of course.

CC for the good discussion!

Well I agree with Kellerman (I believe Oscar won the Trinidad fight however), but I don't think it carries any relevance.

IMO Oscar has shown that he has world class abilities and could compete with the greats of the past in their prime. I think it's really just "lazy journalism" to just nitpick like that.

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Originally Posted by shza

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Originally Posted by The Rookie Fan

LOL tried to sort out the quotes like you but am not very good at it yet and didn't wanna mess up the post....

Anyway, first, Tito fought Winky at 160 not 154. And Tito might have been taller than Oscar and Mously but he was a skinny guy and most would agree that he was not suited for the middleweight division.

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Haha. No worries. You're right about it being at 160. But to be fair, Winky was the one coming up in weight for that fight. Trinidad had fought there and held titles--it was Winky's first fight up from 154.

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Originally Posted by The Rookie Fan

Shane did not handle Vargas easier. The first fight was even untill they stopped it because of the swelling. And that was the same shot Vargas.

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As per my other post, I really disagree. I didn't think that fight was anywhere near even. I thought Vargas looked horrible and won maybe 2 rounds. He would have been KO'd if the fight had continued.

I'm not going to respond to everything. You're right that I forgot about Campas and Carr (I don't think the way past his prime Whittaker really matters)--good point there. For a lot of the rest of it, I think we just disagree because we saw the fights differently. Which is good and fair, of course.

CC for the good discussion!

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WOOT 100 posts. Now I can CC and I'll give you my first CC for good arguments. I guess we'll just agree to disagree hehe I'll see if I can get my hands on that Vargas-Mously fight. I only saw it that one time and I guess I saw it differently than you at the time.

In the end I said I agree with Max in that I think he meant that DLH does not have that W in a big fight. Unless you consider his win against Whitaker his big win, which I guess is acceptable. But that win was not very convincing to many. He also has his wins over Chavez which were pretty impressive even if they were past his prime.

In the end DLH is still a great fighter who gave us all great fights and I truelly hopes he retires before he gets dominated like Winky did to Tito and people don't start doubting how great he is.

Neither has mayweather

mayweather hasn't really been invloved in shady decisions pacdog where ru getting that from apart from castillo in the 1st fight and come would say the DLH fights he's won every other fight he's fought in without a shadow of a doubt imo.

come on stop hating on the guy.

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Originally Posted by luvfightgame

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Originally Posted by LegendBoxing65

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I really disagree with the Vargas comments. The guy has lost to only the 3 top fighters in his era. It puts him in the same category as Hearns. He lost to Hagler, and SRL but he's still a damn good fighter. Vargas beat Winky, but lost to ODH,Tito,Mosley. How does that make him a bad fighter? He fought the best in his time frame and so what he lost some. I can't stand it when a fighter becomes crap when they lose. The guy was a very very solid fighter. And his losses to the best guys in his division don't change that at all.

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Vargas in the same category as Hearns? Hearns beat Pipino Cueves to win his first title. 11 defenses for Cueves to that point, Hearns beat Wilfred Benitez for his second title.. one loss for Benitez to that point and that was to Sugar Ray Leonard. Hearns was the only man to knock out Duran to that point. And Hearns outboxed Virgil Hill at Lightheavyweight. Virgil was undefeated with 10 defenses ... That was Tommy's 6th world title . Hearns did not lose all his big fights. Vargas did. I do not think I was unfair to Vargas. Tommy is 4-2-1 against the Hall of famers ...Can you say that for Vargas? I respect you defense of him, but the numbers are not in favor of him being like Tommy. Tommy lost his 2 biggest fights but won the rest.. That is the difference, he did beat the other 4 legends he fought. Out of the 6 guys he fought.

Oscar beat Mayweather by 2 rounds in my opinion.. watched again the other day on TV to confirm my original thoughts.. Oscar was pressing the action and molesting Mayweather for the most part .. Floyd landed some nice clean shots on occasion and won a few of the later rounds via Oscar tiredness. . but not enough to carry a win. Its ashame Oscar didn’t use the jab a bit more , would have easily sealed the victory for him.. o well ( next )

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Originally Posted by The Rookie Fan

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Originally Posted by shza

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Originally Posted by The Rookie Fan

As for your list. I would rate them like this:

Maywether
B-Hop
Tito
Mously
Oscar

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I rate them:

Mayweather
B-Hop
*Winky Wright*
Mosley
Oscar
Tito

I can't credit Tito for the "win" over Oscar. No way he should have won on points. And once you take that W from him, I don't see how you possibly put him above any of these other guys. I think you have to put him in the place you wanted to put Oscar: never beat an elite fighter in his prime. Seriously, I think Tito is far and away the most one-dimensional guy on this list, and possibly a full step down from the rest of them.

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I'm sorry but I disagree. Tito is criticized terribly for his fight with Wright but Wright had the perfect style for Tito and Tito was passed his prime and over his weight class.

At 147 there was no one better than him. Fine take the out the win over Oscar, lets call it a draw, which is what I think it should have been, now tell me what has Oscar or Mously done to make them better than Tito?? I remember them fighting eachother and thinking they looked like to amateurs throwing flurries at eachother and the deafens went out the window. If eather of them would've tried to box the other it would have been much easier fight. And if eather of them fought Tito in the same way they fought eachother they would've had their a**es handed to them inside of 8 rounds.

If you take every common opponent that they have, with the exception of Winky, Tito did far better than both Mously and DLH and Tito got them first when they were still young, hungry and undefeated.

I really would have loved to see Tito fight Mously, it is the only guy he didn't fight because he came up at the same time Tito moved to 154. I think Tito would KhimTFO.

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Mosley would of beat Tito bad.

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Originally Posted by luvfightgame

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Originally Posted by LegendBoxing65

how do you guys rate Mosley then since he beat Oscar twice but no one else. I know he beat Vargas but Vargas is starting to look like a measuring stick on who knocks him out fastest. None of the guys who are boxing now have really been the king of the whole thing like Sugar Ray Leonard was when Ray beat all of his generation- Ray was 5-1-1 against the guys who were Benitez,Hearns,Duran,Hagler. Bernard has been the most dominant knocking out Oscar and Tito yet he was too big for Oscar.. I am not sure any of them have really shown alot of domination except for Bernard who I think is not in the group because of size. Although they all look good against Vargas. Vargas seems to be the highlight clip for the three of them Tito, Mosley and Oscar. I hope Mayweather comes along and beats Mosley. I know he would fight Tito yet Tito in my mind is pretty big. But if he beat Tito, Mosley and Oscar, and then maybe Winky, he would be the main guy like Ray was and go down very well. Since no one else has really dominated. Mosley lost to Forrest twice. Oscar lost 5 top fights, Tito lost to Bernard and Winky. No one is dominating.. What is missing now is knockouts which would sort of be a claim of domination.. That is where Bernard comes out ahead. And since they all knocked out Vargas you have to think that maybe Vargas is not a guy people should be impressed with if they beat him. Vargas seems to be a guy who guys beat if they qualify for being in the top money bracket but nothing else. So who do you guys think is the leader of the current generation of Mayweather,Mosley,Tito,Oscar,Winky,Bernard?

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I really disagree with the Vargas comments. The guy has lost to only the 3 top fighters in his era. It puts him in the same category as Hearns. He lost to Hagler, and SRL but he's still a damn good fighter. Vargas beat Winky, but lost to ODH,Tito,Mosley. How does that make him a bad fighter? He fought the best in his time frame and so what he lost some. I can't stand it when a fighter becomes crap when they lose. The guy was a very very solid fighter. And his losses to the best guys in his division don't change that at all.

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I hope you didn't just say Vargas is in same category as Hearns.