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Sonny Liston:Where does he rank as a HW and how would he do today?
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Re: Sonny Liston:Where does he rank as a HW and how would he do today?
Umm in his prime he is up there he just come at a time when Ali was at his peak no shame in that what hurt him was controversy over the 2nd fight with *phantom punch* but he would beat alot of hws and if he was in with todays hws he would clean out divison and been undefeated only one that would give him trouble is of course Wlad but i think Liston would crack that glass jaw of Wlad.
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Re: Sonny Liston:Where does he rank as a HW and how would he do today?
Where would you put him top 10? It's just,I now have about 7 of his fights so am able to assess him properly.He's slow,methodical,but everything he did was thunderingly powerful! I mean his jab would knock most guys heads off!! IMO,he would annihilate Wlad! I think alot of guys were scared even before they got into the ring with Liston,that factor which Duran had and few others have managed to attain,beating a fighter before they get into the ring through fear.
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Re: Sonny Liston:Where does he rank as a HW and how would he do today?
I'd say he's definately top 10 - 15, maybe even higher. There are, however, always going to be question marks about him due to his suspected mob involvment. WNF did a little excerpt on his match with Ali (the one with the so called "phantom punch", where you could clearly see him being hit; they did an excellent job explaining how Walcott, the ref, botched the fight and really had no buisness being there).
I think today he'd probably be undisputed champ, or at the very least one of the alphabet strap holders. The only champ I could see really giving him trouble would be one of the Klitschko's, but then again Liston was only just over 6ft. tall, so perhaps the larger men in the HW division would be able to beat him...
I guess I don't really know how he'd do today.... but Teddy Atlas had him somewhere towards the bottom of his top 10 HW's of all time, and his oppinion is much more informed than mine.
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Re: Sonny Liston:Where does he rank as a HW and how would he do today?
I always have issues with comparing fighters from different eras. Different training methods, different frequency of fights, size etc....
How he would fare today is anybodies guess....
He was a great of his era and that is enough for me..
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Re: Sonny Liston:Where does he rank as a HW and how would he do today?
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Originally Posted by miles
I always have issues with comparing fighters from different eras. Different training methods, different frequency of fights, size etc....
How he would fare today is anybodies guess....
He was a great of his era and that is enough for me..
Thats true I guess but then we would never be able to have ATG P4P lists. I guess I'm just looking for inspiration from the HW division from back in the day because I really don't like any of the current HW except may be Sam Peter(and thats only because he is being shafted)
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Re: Sonny Liston:Where does he rank as a HW and how would he do today?
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Originally Posted by El Gamo
Where would you put him top 10? It's just,I now have about 7 of his fights so am able to assess him properly.He's slow,methodical,but everything he did was thunderingly powerful! I mean his jab would knock most guys heads off!! IMO,he would annihilate Wlad! I think alot of guys were scared even before they got into the ring with Liston,that factor which Duran had and few others have managed to attain,beating a fighter before they get into the ring through fear.
i hate doing lists because i suck at them but i'll try and do one.
Heavyweights
1 Muhammad Ali
2 Joe Louis
3 Larry Holmes
4 Jack Johnson
5 Rocky Marciano
6 George Foreman
7 Lennox Lewis
8 Evander Holyfield
9 Mike Tyson
10 Joe Frazier
Sonny Liston would be 11 on my list i rated Frazier over Liston because of his victory over Ali Quarry and very tough Bonavena.
But his jab is one of the best i've seen he ahd very strong jab and he also taught Foreman everything he knows.
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Re: Sonny Liston:Where does he rank as a HW and how would he do today?
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Gamo
Quote:
Originally Posted by miles
I always have issues with comparing fighters from different eras. Different training methods, different frequency of fights, size etc....
How he would fare today is anybodies guess....
He was a great of his era and that is enough for me..
Thats true I guess but then we would never be able to have ATG P4P lists. I guess I'm just looking for inspiration from the HW division from back in the day because I really don't like any of the current HW except may be Sam Peter(and thats only because he is being shafted)
You only like Sam Peter because he is being shafted?! El Gamo, I never expected this gay torrent to come out like this!! ;D
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Re: Sonny Liston:Where does he rank as a HW and how would he do today?
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Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
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Originally Posted by El Gamo
Where would you put him top 10? It's just,I now have about 7 of his fights so am able to assess him properly.He's slow,methodical,but everything he did was thunderingly powerful! I mean his jab would knock most guys heads off!! IMO,he would annihilate Wlad! I think alot of guys were scared even before they got into the ring with Liston,that factor which Duran had and few others have managed to attain,beating a fighter before they get into the ring through fear.
i hate doing lists because i suck at them but i'll try and do one.
Heavyweights
1 Muhammad Ali
2 Joe Louis
3 Larry Holmes
4 Jack Johnson
5 Rocky Marciano
6 George Foreman
7 Lennox Lewis
8 Evander Holyfield
9 Mike Tyson
10 Joe Frazier
Sonny Liston would be 11 on my list i rated Frazier over Liston because of his victory over Ali Quarry and very tough Bonavena.
But his jab is one of the best i've seen he ahd very strong jab and he also taught Foreman everything he knows.
I don't mean to quibble with your list, and I know how subjective they are etc. but how can you not have Jack Dempsey or Gene Tunney on there?
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Re: Sonny Liston:Where does he rank as a HW and how would he do today?
Top 20 all-time. Today he is champ, if not, for sure top 3.
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Re: Sonny Liston:Where does he rank as a HW and how would he do today?
I'd put him in my top 10 and if he was around today . Him Wvlad and Peter would be the top 3 .
Sonny doesnt often get mentioned cuz of how his career ended but Ali had a crap end to his too . Prison gurads with clubs couldnt knock him down so I find the ending of the 2nd Ali fight very suspect . In his prime he was a monster but the dealings with the mafia ruined him .
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Re: Sonny Liston:Where does he rank as a HW and how would he do today?
Liston, in my opinion, was one of those fighters who is extremely powerful, but quite limited. He came along and dominated the division through sheer strength and intimidation in much the same way that Foreman and Tyson did later (although I beleive that the young Tyson had far more skill than either of the two aformentioned with superior defence and fantastic head-movement).
Liston was always there to be taken by a slick boxer who could think and move... in hindsight he was tailor made for Clay at that stage of his career. As mentioned in one of the earlier posts, there was so much uncertainty with Listons dodgy connections and corrupt managers that nobody can say for sure how good he really was (it is rumoured that at one stage his contract was sold so many times that 120% of him was owned.... the more he earned - the poorer he got!!).
I agree that the 2nd Ali fight was not above board, but I genuinely believe that he was beaten by skillful boxing in the first fight and just ran out of ideas (thats why he quit on his stool - not due to a shoulder injury as claimed).
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Re: Sonny Liston:Where does he rank as a HW and how would he do today?
Actually the big bad bear is one of the few heavyweights of that era who wouldnt be fighting at Cruiser today
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Re: Sonny Liston:Where does he rank as a HW and how would he do today?
Sonny belongs in the top 20 for sure....
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Re: Sonny Liston:Where does he rank as a HW and how would he do today?
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Originally Posted by Dav
Liston, in my opinion, was one of those fighters who is extremely powerful, but quite limited. He came along and dominated the division through sheer strength and intimidation in much the same way that Foreman and Tyson did later (although I beleive that the young Tyson had far more skill than either of the two aformentioned with superior defence and fantastic head-movement).
Liston was always there to be taken by a slick boxer who could think and move... in hindsight he was tailor made for Clay at that stage of his career. As mentioned in one of the earlier posts, there was so much uncertainty with Listons dodgy connections and corrupt managers that nobody can say for sure how good he really was (it is rumoured that at one stage his contract was sold so many times that 120% of him was owned.... the more he earned - the poorer he got!!).
I agree that the 2nd Ali fight was not above board, but I genuinely believe that he was beaten by skillful boxing in the first fight and just ran out of ideas (thats why he quit on his stool - not due to a shoulder injury as claimed).
Yeah I agree with that . But I do think Sonny is massivley under rated . He should be on everyones top 10 cuz some of the names maybe put ahead of him . . Demspey , Johnson , Tunney , Schmelling etc would have got battered by Liston in the ring no doubt . They may have achived more in their era in a historical sense but Liston would beat them should they have met and of that I am almost certain . It depends what your crieteria is when ranking them I suppose
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Re: Sonny Liston:Where does he rank as a HW and how would he do today?
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Originally Posted by CFH
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Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
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Originally Posted by El Gamo
Where would you put him top 10? It's just,I now have about 7 of his fights so am able to assess him properly.He's slow,methodical,but everything he did was thunderingly powerful! I mean his jab would knock most guys heads off!! IMO,he would annihilate Wlad! I think alot of guys were scared even before they got into the ring with Liston,that factor which Duran had and few others have managed to attain,beating a fighter before they get into the ring through fear.
i hate doing lists because i suck at them but i'll try and do one.
Heavyweights
1 Muhammad Ali
2 Joe Louis
3 Larry Holmes
4 Jack Johnson
5 Rocky Marciano
6 George Foreman
7 Lennox Lewis
8 Evander Holyfield
9 Mike Tyson
10 Joe Frazier
Sonny Liston would be 11 on my list i rated Frazier over Liston because of his victory over Ali Quarry and very tough Bonavena.
But his jab is one of the best i've seen he ahd very strong jab and he also taught Foreman everything he knows.
I don't mean to quibble with your list, and I know how subjective they are etc. but how can you not have Jack Dempsey or Gene Tunney on there?
Tunney i could of put him there i guess but im not all up to date on boxing that old only know about him vs Dempsey and Dempsey well i could of mentioned him maybe instead of Frazier i guess.
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Re: Sonny Liston:Where does he rank as a HW and how would he do today?
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Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
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Originally Posted by CFH
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Gamo
Where would you put him top 10? It's just,I now have about 7 of his fights so am able to assess him properly.He's slow,methodical,but everything he did was thunderingly powerful! I mean his jab would knock most guys heads off!! IMO,he would annihilate Wlad! I think alot of guys were scared even before they got into the ring with Liston,that factor which Duran had and few others have managed to attain,beating a fighter before they get into the ring through fear.
i hate doing lists because i suck at them but i'll try and do one.
Heavyweights
1 Muhammad Ali
2 Joe Louis
3 Larry Holmes
4 Jack Johnson
5 Rocky Marciano
6 George Foreman
7 Lennox Lewis
8 Evander Holyfield
9 Mike Tyson
10 Joe Frazier
Sonny Liston would be 11 on my list i rated Frazier over Liston because of his victory over Ali Quarry and very tough Bonavena.
But his jab is one of the best i've seen he ahd very strong jab and he also taught Foreman everything he knows.
I don't mean to quibble with your list, and I know how subjective they are etc. but how can you not have Jack Dempsey or Gene Tunney on there?
Tunney i could of put him there i guess but im not all up to date on boxing that old only know about him vs Dempsey and Dempsey well i could of mentioned him maybe instead of Frazier i guess.
CC. I meant no disrespect, I was only curious. I don't know terribly much about boxing that old either, its just that almost everything I've read/heard has those guys in the top 10.
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Re: Sonny Liston:Where does he rank as a HW and how would he do today?
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Originally Posted by CFH
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
Quote:
Originally Posted by CFH
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Gamo
Where would you put him top 10? It's just,I now have about 7 of his fights so am able to assess him properly.He's slow,methodical,but everything he did was thunderingly powerful! I mean his jab would knock most guys heads off!! IMO,he would annihilate Wlad! I think alot of guys were scared even before they got into the ring with Liston,that factor which Duran had and few others have managed to attain,beating a fighter before they get into the ring through fear.
i hate doing lists because i suck at them but i'll try and do one.
Heavyweights
1 Muhammad Ali
2 Joe Louis
3 Larry Holmes
4 Jack Johnson
5 Rocky Marciano
6 George Foreman
7 Lennox Lewis
8 Evander Holyfield
9 Mike Tyson
10 Joe Frazier
Sonny Liston would be 11 on my list i rated Frazier over Liston because of his victory over Ali Quarry and very tough Bonavena.
But his jab is one of the best i've seen he ahd very strong jab and he also taught Foreman everything he knows.
I don't mean to quibble with your list, and I know how subjective they are etc. but how can you not have Jack Dempsey or Gene Tunney on there?
Tunney i could of put him there i guess but im not all up to date on boxing that old only know about him vs Dempsey and Dempsey well i could of mentioned him maybe instead of Frazier i guess.
CC. I meant no disrespect, I was only curious. I don't know terribly much about boxing that old either, its just that almost everything I've read/heard has those guys in the top 10.
:coolclick: back i will have to read up on him and have look at his record but i just had a glance and i see he beat the great Harry Greb wow.
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Re: Sonny Liston:Where does he rank as a HW and how would he do today?
he beats all heavys of today. none of them could handle his power
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Re: Sonny Liston:Where does he rank as a HW and how would he do today?
Liston was everything I like in a fighter and he ranks above Tyson on my personal favorites list at number one.
If Liston fought today he would do just fine. He may mess his pants when Valuev came lurching down the aisle though...
Briggs, Maskaev and Chagaev would all taste defeat by Liston's hand. Klitschko is another matter but I'd like to think Sonny puts him down too.
Sam Peter would get dealt with
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Re: Sonny Liston:Where does he rank as a HW and how would he do today?
Nobody ever really saw the best Liston. He came into the sport quite late, he was one of the most avoided fighters there have ever been - on his way up, nobody wanted their fighter in the ring with Liston (they all claimed it was because of his undoubted mob connection - he even worked as a strike breaker for a while (he would go up to a picket line and simply beat everyone up until they called the strike off). When he got arrested it took 5 officers to do it.
By the time he won the title, he was already well past his best (the dispute over is age was actually because Sonny did not know how old he was - one of 25 children) I think he may well have been 36 or 37 when he fought Clay. Later, he did train with a young Foreman and George always says that Liston taught him to fight.
He was 6'1", which is not massive by todays standards, but he was HUGE. His knuckle circumference was 15 inches. This was a big man - like Tyson is a big 5'10".
His power was enormous - he literally knocked people out with his jab. Huge left hook, as he was probably a converted southpaw. Great chin and - despite what people say - a big heart (he fought 7 rounds with Marty Marshall with a broken jaw.
He would cut a swathe though today's heavyweights like a Sherman tank through a cornfield, This was one seriously tough guy. I really do not think anyone today could stand in front of him and he woud crush people like Wlad and Briggs very quickly. Ironically, someone like Chris Byrd would give him the most problems as he sometimes struggled to pin down 'runners'.
He had a dry sense of humour too - after leaving Chuck Wepner needeing 68 stitches he was asked whether Wepner was the bravest man he had ever met, Liston quipped "Nope, but his manager sure is"
His tragedy is not that he is so underrated in the ring, it is the fact that he never ever had a chance in life.
Grinding poverty, a violent and abusive father, drifting into petty and then serious crime. Prison turned him into a career criminal, his mob bosses and managers who screwed him, being avoided as a fighter, meeting Clay, being avoided again afterwards, back to poverty and then his very mysterious death. As someone said "Sonny Liston died the day he was born"
Rest in Peace, Sonny.
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Re: Sonny Liston:Where does he rank as a HW and how would he do today?
I think he is a little too small for his style nowadays especially in the 90's he would still do quite well though be in the top 5 at least.
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Re: Sonny Liston:Where does he rank as a HW and how would he do today?
He was definitely a swatter.I say he would hold one of the four belts.
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Re: Sonny Liston:Where does he rank as a HW and how would he do today?
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Originally Posted by CFH
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Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
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Originally Posted by El Gamo
Where would you put him top 10? It's just,I now have about 7 of his fights so am able to assess him properly.He's slow,methodical,but everything he did was thunderingly powerful! I mean his jab would knock most guys heads off!! IMO,he would annihilate Wlad! I think alot of guys were scared even before they got into the ring with Liston,that factor which Duran had and few others have managed to attain,beating a fighter before they get into the ring through fear.
i hate doing lists because i suck at them but i'll try and do one.
Heavyweights
1 Muhammad Ali
2 Joe Louis
3 Larry Holmes
4 Jack Johnson
5 Rocky Marciano
6 George Foreman
7 Lennox Lewis
8 Evander Holyfield
9 Mike Tyson
10 Joe Frazier
Sonny Liston would be 11 on my list i rated Frazier over Liston because of his victory over Ali Quarry and very tough Bonavena.
But his jab is one of the best i've seen he ahd very strong jab and he also taught Foreman everything he knows.
I don't mean to quibble with your list, and I know how subjective they are etc. but how can you not have Jack Dempsey or Gene Tunney on there?
dempey was good and i love him, very ferocious but lacked defence, he would get his a$$ handed to him by ali, louis, tyson, foreman etc
and tunney? what has he done except outpoint dempsey?
ps...ice colds list is opne of the better lists ive seen cc to u :D
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Re: Sonny Liston:Where does he rank as a HW and how would he do today?
Thanks mate :coolclick: back.
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Re: Sonny Liston:Where does he rank as a HW and how would he do today?
if ali had never come along he would be in the top 10--he was fearless and nobody was gonna beat him. because of ali he is thought of as only a villian and is completely overshadowed
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Re: Sonny Liston:Where does he rank as a HW and how would he do today?
I disagree to a point with Game... I think that both Tunney and Johnson would have been too clever for Liston... those are exactly the type of fighters he would have struggled against. Dempsey would have been a brutal fight... my money would be on Dempsey (although Listons size may have been a deciding factor). If Liston were at his peak today I don't think there is much doubt that he would totally dominate the heavyweight scene.
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Re: Sonny Liston:Where does he rank as a HW and how would he do today?
Liston like foreman would have done alot more if not for clay/ali
Liston would do ok even with todays massive heavies
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Re: Sonny Liston:Where does he rank as a HW and how would he do today?
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Originally Posted by Dav
I disagree to a point with Game... I think that both Tunney and Johnson would have been too clever for Liston... those are exactly the type of fighters he would have struggled against. Dempsey would have been a brutal fight... my money would be on Dempsey (although Listons size may have been a deciding factor). If Liston were at his peak today I don't think there is much doubt that he would totally dominate the heavyweight scene.
Quite possibly. I suppose theres no point in debating too much cuz we will never know but I just think guys that small wouldnt be able to absorb the power from a guy like Liston even if they could keep him off for a few rounds.
I agree if Sonny was around today he would rule things . Wvlad would be his toughest challenge based on his physical advantages but judging on the guys who have knocked out Wvald , I think Liston could aswel .
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Re: Sonny Liston:Where does he rank as a HW and how would he do today?
u have to remember that back then they had big heavyweights who were 250 pounds and over 6'7, but they were journey men! 6'1 is average for a heavyweight and he was a big 6'1, had massive hands and feet and was deadly powerful! some of you guys are talking too much about 'they would have been too small for todays heavyweights'....lemme get one thing straight, todays heavyweights are pussies. they cant fight like dempsey or liston for shit. size is overatted. i mean dempsey would have droppped guys like wlad and peters no problem. and the guy that said dempsey had a crap defense....he needs to watch more dempsey fights.
i have liston in my top 5. a very underrated fighter!
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Re: Sonny Liston:Where does he rank as a HW and how would he do today?
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Originally Posted by Lionheart Lacy
u have to remember that back then they had big heavyweights who were 250 pounds and over 6'7, but they were journey men! 6'1 is average for a heavyweight and he was a big 6'1, had massive hands and feet and was deadly powerful! some of you guys are talking too much about 'they would have been too small for todays heavyweights'....lemme get one thing straight, todays heavyweights are pussies. they cant fight like dempsey or liston for S***. size is overatted. i mean dempsey would have droppped guys like wlad and peters no problem. and the guy that said dempsey had a crap defense....he needs to watch more dempsey fights.
i have liston in my top 5. a very underrated fighter!
:appl:
:coolclick:
