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Sonny Liston Would of beat Ali if he would of faced him when he was younger
I know there is alot of Ali fans out there. I mean even i love Ali but i don't think he was a god like many do which is fine because it there right as a fan.
Now for what my topic. When Sonny Liston first fought Ali he was 35 maybe older was out of shape and had a drinking problem and still was even on the score cards before his shoulder injury which was legit at least as far as my knowledge goes. So what i am saying if Sonny Liston was younger and in his prime i think he would of had a good chance at winning. Just my thought i looking forward to what people while say to that.
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Re: Sonny Liston Would of beat Ali if he would of faced him when he was younger
Mr. 140...
Don't know if you are right; Don't know if you are wrong. But you get a CC from me ;D
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Re: Sonny Liston Would of beat Ali if he would of faced him when he was younger
Boxing is all about if's and but's but he certainly would have had more chance when he was younger.
But i think the clay who fought Liston was better than the Ali who beat Foreman so its really hard to call.
Ali spent his best years in prison , so in a way many top fighters loose valuable fighting time , but debats like this are always fun.:)
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Re: Sonny Liston Would of beat Ali if he would of faced him when he was younger
Could not agree with you more boxing is one of the most debatable sports in my opinion.
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Re: Sonny Liston Would of beat Ali if he would of faced him when he was younger
No definitive way, but Liston was scared of Ali. It's pretty well documented that Liston believed Ali was truly crazy and that scared him.
When he was younger he would have had more of a chance but I think he was beat just as much on the mental front as he was in the ring. Also, Ali was the first guy Liston ever faced that was bigger then him.
Liston as a young fighter was an animal though. Loaded up with every single one of his shots and had one of the heaviest jabs in boxing history. Not great speed, but a ton of power. Not sure if that power was all there when he fought Ali. I'm not sure of the Liston timeline before Ali and if I've seen those fights, maybe that would clue me in a bit more.
But I would take Ali over Liston. Liston would have a better chance, and I don't think he would be walking through any Liston blows but I just think he was a class above. Factor in the mental edge and I'm not sure I could foresee Liston winning.
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Re: Sonny Liston Would of beat Ali if he would of faced him when he was younger
The answer to your question is easy...... NO.
Ali would've beaten the crap out of Liston whether Liston was 25, 28, 32, or 35 years old. Ali was better, plain and simple.
Their fight wasn't close. The only round Liston won was the round where Ali was blinded by an illegal substance that got into his eyes.
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Re: Sonny Liston Would of beat Ali if he would of faced him when he was younger
The score cards were as followed Judge had Liston 58-56, judge Ali up by the same thing and referee had it even he had more then a round. And I would have disagree Liston was past it at 35 dude and i think if he was younger in his prime he give Ali a hard time.
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Re: Sonny Liston Would of beat Ali if he would of faced him when he was younger
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
The score cards were as followed Judge had Liston 58-56, judge Ali up by the same thing and referee had it even he had more then a round. And I would have disagree Liston was past it at 35 dude and i think if he was younger in his prime he give Ali a hard time.
If the judges had Liston winning or had it even, then they must have all drank a bottle of vodka before sitting at ringside. Ali was dominating that fight. That's why Liston quit on his stool, because he was getting outclassed.
Have you ever watched the fight?
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Re: Sonny Liston Would of beat Ali if he would of faced him when he was younger
been a while since i have seen it maybe i should look at it again but the score i told you are correct but i think i will view the tap again thanks for posting glade someone is taking interest in my post.
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Re: Sonny Liston Would of beat Ali if he would of faced him when he was younger
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
been a while since i have seen it maybe i should look at it again but the score i told you are correct but i think i will view the tap again thanks for posting glade someone is taking interest in my post.
Ya, the judges scores that you posted are definitely the real ones, I just doublechecked them on boxrec.com, and you're right.
But those are bad scorecards. Ali only lost one round (Round 5 I think), and that's when he was blinded by a substance in his eyes. He dominated every other round. I'm sure the fight's on youtube if you want to check it out.
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Re: Sonny Liston Would of beat Ali if he would of faced him when he was younger
Yea Thanks for that info be sure to watch and while your on why dont you answer my question on the overrated rocky no one has answered my question what was up with the second fight that rocky had with walcott he seem to be able to go on but wait till the ten count and then jumped up.
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Re: Sonny Liston Would of beat Ali if he would of faced him when he was younger
Liston would be better when he was younger but i don't think he would beat Ali
It was always more mental than physical.
Ali(still Clay then) at 22 was splendid phisical specimen of a fighter.
fast as lightning, reflexes like never seen before, mentally the most imposing fighter Liston had even faced
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Re: Sonny Liston Would of beat Ali if he would of faced him when he was younger
Yea i guess you make a good point about Ali in the in his early years but Liston seem to done when they fought think his way of life over the years caught up with him.
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Re: Sonny Liston Would of beat Ali if he would of faced him when he was younger
Given you a CC for your wel thought post.
Keep it up Mr140
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Re: Sonny Liston Would of beat Ali if he would of faced him when he was younger
If Sonny had fought Clay (as was then) when Liston was 20 ............. Clay would have been about 7.
So, I reckon Old Stoneface may have shaded it !!
;)
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Re: Sonny Liston Would of beat Ali if he would of faced him when he was younger
I agree with Sweetpea he was just too good for Liston and i didn't realize judges had it that close as Sweetpea said they must of been getting legless to have them scores because he was outjabbing outslicking Liston all night only round Liston won was the 5th.
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Re: Sonny Liston Would of beat Ali if he would of faced him when he was younger
Remember folks, everyone at the time thought Liston was going to murder the young loudmouth Louisville Lip.
It was a foregone conclusion.
Clay was going down it was only a matter of time.
Doctors checking Clay before the fight were concerned that his heart rate was too high and his hyper behaviour was because he was in an unstable condition.
People saw this as fear, and in part they may have been right, but there was also an equal measure of excitement as well.
Yeah we all know what happened... a Legend was born, the greatest boxing legend ever known to humankind.
Poor old Sonny, if only he had known to keep his hands up.
Personally I don't think there was ever a fighter in any weight that compares to Ali in early 1967.
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Re: Sonny Liston Would of beat Ali if he would of faced him when he was younger
Clay wasn't at his prime either when they fought ;)
Should be a question of early seventies Ali against early sixties Liston
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Re: Sonny Liston Would of beat Ali if he would of faced him when he was younger
Whirlwind. i think you're right
The most beautyful thing that i have ever seen in a ring
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Re: Sonny Liston Would of beat Ali if he would of faced him when he was younger
Quote:
Originally Posted by SweetPea
The answer to your question is easy...... NO.
Ali would've beaten the crap out of Liston whether Liston was 25, 28, 32, or 35 years old. Ali was better, plain and simple.
Their fight wasn't close. The only round Liston won was the round where Ali was blinded by an illegal substance that got into his eyes.
I'm not gonna say the substance was illegal but thats exactly my point. Ali couldn't see for a whole round and gave liston plenty of opportunities to beat him. SInce liston couldn't beat him them, he wouldn't beat him at any point. He should've atleast made the fight earlier so ali could get the title of being the youngest heavyweight champ of all time as opposed to being 3rd all time.
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Re: Sonny Liston Would of beat Ali if he would of faced him when he was younger
Its hard to say. Liston was a recking ball. I still fancy Clay but Liston was past it when he fought in 64.
He was probably past it when he fought Patterson ::**
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Re: Sonny Liston Would of beat Ali if he would of faced him when he was younger
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
I know there is alot of Ali fans out there. I mean even i love Ali but i don't think he was a god like many do which is fine because it there right as a fan.
Now for what my topic. When Sonny Liston first fought Ali he was 35 maybe older was out of shape and had a drinking problem and still was even on the score cards before his shoulder injury which was legit at least as far as my knowledge goes. So what i am saying if Sonny Liston was younger and in his prime i think he would of had a good chance at winning. Just my thought i looking forward to what people while say to that.
The argument can be 'if this happened' and 'if that happened', fact is he lost. I feel sorry for him that he was out of shape and drinking, but Ali was a champion and if Liston had any chance to beat him...he should trained hard and properly, he didn't. So Liston lost to Ali, but lost to himself also.
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Re: Sonny Liston Would of beat Ali if he would of faced him when he was younger
liston still would not be able to handle the speed, movement and skill of ali
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Re: Sonny Liston Would of beat Ali if he would of faced him when he was younger
Well i guess we will never find out but if did sound like a interesting idea i think so at least.
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Re: Sonny Liston Would of beat Ali if he would of faced him when he was younger
First, i just have to praise Mr140 for his series of of well thought out posts.
It has been claimed that Liston was much older than his official age when he faught Ali.
Liston was a much better boxer than people give him credit for and people just tend to associate him with raw punching power.
If I compare liston to fighters like Frazier and Shavers, then I would argue a prime Liston would have given Ali pre prison one hell of a fight. Post prison, where Ali would sit back and take punishment, I think it would be very close because unlike Frazier, liston would use that ram-rod jab. I remember Bob Foster's jab causing Ali problems.
I'd still give the edge to Ali, due to his freakish physical strength. Ali isn't usually associated with being a big puncher. I can't remember him setting his feet and letting a punch go with 80%-90% or even 100% of his power. However, I think a prime Liston would have forced him to do it, just to keep him off him.
Anyway, I'm biased because Liston is my second favourite fighter ever.
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Re: Sonny Liston Would of beat Ali if he would of faced him when he was younger
listen man this is boxing is hard not to be bias on the fighters you like
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Re: Sonny Liston Would of beat Ali if he would of faced him when he was younger
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
The score cards were as followed Judge had Liston 58-56, judge Ali up by the same thing and referee had it even he had more then a round. And I would have disagree Liston was past it at 35 dude and i think if he was younger in his prime he give Ali a hard time.
They scored on a 10 point must system back then ??? I don't think so..
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Re: Sonny Liston Would of beat Ali if he would of faced him when he was younger
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majesty
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
The score cards were as followed Judge had Liston 58-56, judge Ali up by the same thing and referee had it even he had more then a round. And I would have disagree Liston was past it at 35 dude and i think if he was younger in his prime he give Ali a hard time.
They scored on a 10 point must system back then ???   I don't think so...
Yeah that is very odd.
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Re: Sonny Liston Would of beat Ali if he would of faced him when he was younger
I like Liston,but Ali in his prime was an incredibly frustraiting fighter for a heavyweight,because of his unreal elusivness.
And as another poster pointed out,Ali when he stopped slipping,and set,through a mule kick of a punch
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jU2YPXghFkU
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Re: Sonny Liston Would of beat Ali if he would of faced him when he was younger
Quote:
Originally Posted by Punisher136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majesty
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
The score cards were as followed Judge had Liston 58-56, judge Ali up by the same thing and referee had it even he had more then a round. And I would have disagree Liston was past it at 35 dude and i think if he was younger in his prime he give Ali a hard time.
They scored on a 10 point must system back then ??? I don't think so...
Yeah that is very odd.
Yeah there wasn't a 10 point must system back then, there was a round by round system
As in if Ali won rounds 1-2-3-4 and liston won round 5 with round 6 even it would be
4-1-1
I don't think there was a 10 point must back then. Heck there wasn't even one when Ali fought Frazier.
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Re: Sonny Liston Would of beat Ali if he would of faced him when he was younger
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majesty
Quote:
Originally Posted by Punisher136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majesty
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
The score cards were as followed Judge had Liston 58-56, judge Ali up by the same thing and referee had it even he had more then a round. And I would have disagree Liston was past it at 35 dude and i think if he was younger in his prime he give Ali a hard time.
They scored on a 10 point must system back then ??? I don't think so...
Yeah that is very odd.
Yeah there wasn't a 10 point must system back then, there was a round by round system
As in if Ali won rounds 1-2-3-4 and liston won round 5 with round 6 even it would be
4-1-1
I don't think there was a 10 point must back then.
Heck there wasn't even one when Ali fought Frazier.
Thats the first fight i thought of when i read that post. When i look up those things on boxrec none of it really makes sense. The liston appears to be a 10 point must system while the first frazier fight was the round by round system and the chuvalo fight (which happened after the liston fight and before the frazier fight) is the 5 point must system ???
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Re: Sonny Liston Would of beat Ali if he would of faced him when he was younger
I would rate Liston just above Marty Marshall what a great fighter he was.
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Re: Sonny Liston Would of beat Ali if he would of faced him when he was younger
Most people who fought Liston said that in his prime he would have beaten Ali, Foreman, etc.
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Re: Sonny Liston Would of beat Ali if he would of faced him when he was younger
Quote:
Originally Posted by Punisher136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majesty
Quote:
Originally Posted by Punisher136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majesty
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
The score cards were as followed Judge had Liston 58-56, judge Ali up by the same thing and referee had it even he had more then a round. And I would have disagree Liston was past it at 35 dude and i think if he was younger in his prime he give Ali a hard time.
They scored on a 10 point must system back then ??? I don't think so...
Yeah that is very odd.
Yeah there wasn't a 10 point must system back then, there was a round by round system
As in if Ali won rounds 1-2-3-4 and liston won round 5 with round 6 even it would be
4-1-1
I don't think there was a 10 point must back then.
Heck there wasn't even one when Ali fought Frazier.
Thats the first fight i thought of when i read that post. When i look up those things on boxrec none of it really makes sense. The liston appears to be a 10 point must system while the first frazier fight was the round by round system and the chuvalo fight (which happened after the liston fight and before the frazier fight) is the 5 point must system ???
I think boxrec got it wrong. Because there was no 10 point must system back then.
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Re: Sonny Liston Would of beat Ali if he would of faced him when he was younger
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majesty
Quote:
Originally Posted by Punisher136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majesty
Quote:
Originally Posted by Punisher136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majesty
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
The score cards were as followed Judge had Liston 58-56, judge Ali up by the same thing and referee had it even he had more then a round. And I would have disagree Liston was past it at 35 dude and i think if he was younger in his prime he give Ali a hard time.
They scored on a 10 point must system back then ???   I don't think so...
Yeah that is very odd.
Yeah there wasn't a 10 point must system back then, there was a round by round system
As in if Ali won rounds 1-2-3-4 and liston won round 5 with round 6 even it would be
4-1-1   
I don't think there was a 10 point must back then. 
Heck there wasn't even one when Ali fought Frazier.
Thats the first fight i thought of when i read that post. When i look up those things on boxrec none of it really makes sense. The liston appears to be a 10 point must system while the first frazier fight was the round by round system and the chuvalo fight (which happened after the liston fight and before the frazier fight) is the 5 point must system ???
I think boxrec got it wrong.  Because there was no 10 point must system back then.
They had to of. The 5 point system for chuvalo is accurate because i've seen the fight numerous times and they announce it as such. And i know for a fact ali frazier 1 was a round by round.
edit: i'm looking to find when the 10 point must was introduced but since i haven't yet i fell upon something thats kinda interesting.
Fatality rates per 100,000 participants
Horse racing: 128
Sky diving: 123
Hang gliding: 56
Mountaineering: 51
Scuba Diving: 11
Motorcycle racing: 7
College Football: 3
Boxing: 1.3
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Re: Sonny Liston Would of beat Ali if he would of faced him when he was younger
The sillieness that is compairing anyone to Ali
He was unique
He combined elusivness,hand speed,and power,like no other
It wasnt like Liston right after the fight,he fought for 6 more years,and only had 1 more loss in that period
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Re: Sonny Liston Would of beat Ali if he would of faced him when he was younger
I disagree a lot of people gave even prime Ali a really hard time.
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Re: Sonny Liston Would of beat Ali if he would of faced him when he was younger
Quote:
Originally Posted by Punisher136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majesty
Quote:
Originally Posted by Punisher136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majesty
Quote:
Originally Posted by Punisher136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majesty
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
The score cards were as followed Judge had Liston 58-56, judge Ali up by the same thing and referee had it even he had more then a round. And I would have disagree Liston was past it at 35 dude and i think if he was younger in his prime he give Ali a hard time.
They scored on a 10 point must system back then ??? I don't think so...
Yeah that is very odd.
Yeah there wasn't a 10 point must system back then, there was a round by round system
As in if Ali won rounds 1-2-3-4 and liston won round 5 with round 6 even it would be
4-1-1
I don't think there was a 10 point must back then.
Heck there wasn't even one when Ali fought Frazier.
Thats the first fight i thought of when i read that post. When i look up those things on boxrec none of it really makes sense. The liston appears to be a 10 point must system while the first frazier fight was the round by round system and the chuvalo fight (which happened after the liston fight and before the frazier fight) is the 5 point must system ???
I think boxrec got it wrong. Because there was no 10 point must system back then.
They had to of. The 5 point system for chuvalo is accurate because i've seen the fight numerous times and they announce it as such. And i know for a fact ali frazier 1 was a round by round.
edit: i'm looking to find when the 10 point must was introduced but since i haven't yet i fell upon something thats kinda interesting.
Fatality rates per 100,000 participants
Horse racing: 128
Sky diving: 123
Hang gliding: 56
Mountaineering: 51
Scuba Diving: 11
Motorcycle racing: 7
College Football: 3
Boxing: 1.3
Very interesting..
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Re: Sonny Liston Would of beat Ali if he would of faced him when he was younger
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
I disagree a lot of people gave even prime Ali a really hard time.
Not really,Ali was the first and maybe only fighter,who could get away with goofing off,until he decided to end the fight
Like he did with Williams,like he did with Folley(a fighter Patterson dodged when he was the #1 contender)
,hell the only reason he let Patterson hang around as long as he did,was so he could punish him for that stupid Cassius Clay routine he did in the press
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Re: Sonny Liston Would of beat Ali if he would of faced him when he was younger
Ali was to young and inexperienced to formulate a excellent strategy like he did against Foreman when he fought Liston so i agree Mr140 Liston would have had a very good chance (maybe he even would have beaten Ali) if he was younger. I mean have you seen the pictures of Listons neck exercises where he is basically standing upright on his head, while ony using his arms for report. He was a freak and strong neck muscles can help a fighter take a better punch, maybe Ali wouldnt have K.O'd a younger more in-shape Liston
