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Its very rare that a Heavyweight beats a 'great' in their prime
There either old, have high milage, outta their best weight class or most times a combination of both.
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Re: Its very rare that a Heavyweight beats a 'great' in their prime
Name one Heavyweight champ this dosent apply to.
Except George Foreman v Joe Fraizer ;)
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Re: Its very rare that a Heavyweight beats a 'great' in their prime
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimboogie
Name one Heavyweight champ this dosent apply to.
Except George Foreman v Joe Fraizer ;)
Ali-frazier 2
Ali- Foreman
Ali- patterson twice (if you wanna go that far)
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Re: Its very rare that a Heavyweight beats a 'great' in their prime
Mike Tyson vs Michael Spinks
Muhammad Ali vs George Foreman
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Re: Its very rare that a Heavyweight beats a 'great' in their prime
Okay the Foreman - Ali one shut me up
But the rest of em???
Spinks? Patterson?
Hello ::**
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Re: Its very rare that a Heavyweight beats a 'great' in their prime
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimboogie
Okay the Foreman - Ali one shut me up
But the rest of em???
Spinks? Patterson?
Hello ::**
hey i was saying if you really wanted to stretch things.
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Re: Its very rare that a Heavyweight beats a 'great' in their prime
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimboogie
Okay the Foreman - Ali one shut me up
But the rest of em???
Spinks? Patterson?
Hello ::**
Spinks was considered a great after beating Holmes twice even though imo he lost both still was a great achievement.
How about Tunney vs Dempsey ??
Or Sonny Liston beating Patterson ??
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Re: Its very rare that a Heavyweight beats a 'great' in their prime
Michael Spinks.... ;D
I cant get over that one ;D ;D
Sory bruv, i know he beat an over the hill Holmes but seriously, those 'wins' in no whay make him a great heavyweight ;)
Dempsey was past it. Seriously, that fight was after a long spell of innactivity/ non title exhibitions.
Liston beating Patterson never had a wow factor to it. Infact Paterson (God rest his soul) never had a wow factor period. (In hind sight of course) & IMO is not a great.
Ali Fraizer 1 was a joke. If youve ever actually watched the fight (not just the knockdown) you'll see what i mean.
He was rusty, slow, out of shape and generally abismall...
From that point on, the Ali-Fraizer trilogy involved one or two fighters who just weren't quite the force they once was.
Of cousre im only doing this in response to the 'Lewis never beat a gerat Jibe' to simply highlight that in the Heavyweight division its apparent that its incredibly rare, in hindsight of course, to find a Championship Match between two touted greats were both men were seen to be in thier prime.
Once again, the only one i can think of is Foreman v Fraizer.
Its a shame because i think Vitali was about two punches and two years away from doing it.
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Re: Its very rare that a Heavyweight beats a 'great' in their prime
I guess my suggestions wern't very good then ;D
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Re: Its very rare that a Heavyweight beats a 'great' in their prime
No they wasn't.
Now remove yourself from my vision of total correctness (spelling not applicable) or i will be forced to write an even longer reply ^-^
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Re: Its very rare that a Heavyweight beats a 'great' in their prime
How can Ali be past it,when he beats Foreman a year after Frazier beat him?
And how can Frazier be past it when Ali beats him a year after the Foreman fight?
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Re: Its very rare that a Heavyweight beats a 'great' in their prime
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimboogie
No they wasn't.
Now remove yourself from my vision of total correctness (spelling not applicable) or i will be forced to write an even longer reply ^-^
Thanks lol :o
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Re: Its very rare that a Heavyweight beats a 'great' in their prime
Jack Dempsey vs Jess Willard
Hey he might not of been the best but he still beat Jack Johnson.
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Re: Its very rare that a Heavyweight beats a 'great' in their prime
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
How can Ali be past it,when he beats Foreman a year after Frazier beat him?
And how can Frazier be past it when Ali beats him a year after the Frazier fight?
:hypnotized:
Sorry, say that again ???
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Re: Its very rare that a Heavyweight beats a 'great' in their prime
No hang on, i get it, Basically.....
Wait... Nope, youv'e lost me... Come again.
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Re: Its very rare that a Heavyweight beats a 'great' in their prime
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimboogie
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
How can Ali be past it,when he beats Foreman a year after Frazier beat him?
And how can Frazier be past it when Ali beats him a year after the Frazier fight?
:hypnotized:
Sorry, say that again ???
The clarified version of that is:
One year does not a decline make. ;D
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Re: Its very rare that a Heavyweight beats a 'great' in their prime
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimboogie
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
How can Ali be past it,when he beats Foreman a year after Frazier beat him?
And how can Frazier be past it when Ali beats him a year after the Frazier fight?
:hypnotized:
Sorry, say that again ???
Just edited
If Foreman/Frazier was two greats in their prime
Ali beats Foreman 1 year after Frazier/Ali 1
So Frazier/Ali 1 would logically be two greats in their prime
And if Foreman/Frazier was two greats in their prime
Ali/Frazier 2 happened a year after it
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Re: Its very rare that a Heavyweight beats a 'great' in their prime
What a difference a year makes, or so the saying goes ;)
Na, its all about getting the beating of your life and never really recovering from it.
Just ask Iron Mike ;)
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Re: Its very rare that a Heavyweight beats a 'great' in their prime
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimboogie
What a difference a year makes, or so the saying goes ;)
Na, its all about getting the beating of your life and never really recovering from it.
Just ask Iron Mike ;)
Which is of course why Frazier wiped out former titlest Jimmy Ellis and perenial contender Jerry Quarry in his next two fights after Ali/Frazier 2
He was only 32 when he packed it in,these days that would be a spring chicken
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Re: Its very rare that a Heavyweight beats a 'great' in their prime
Ali - Foreman was definitely a great heavyweight beating a prime heavyweight. It's hard because anytime anyone loses, people are going to say that they weren't prime because the general feeling is that prime fighters just don't lose bouts. Some people say a fighter's prime last one bout, I think that's a peak not a prime.
But I definitely think the Frazier Ali beat was prime. The Foreman he beat was certainly prime.
Johnson had had the title for like 8 years before losing to Willard, and he was slow. He was good, but he wasn't prime. I'd say that the Tyson Buster beat was prime. We know Mike or his corner wasn't ready for a fight, but he was still considered unbeatable and had he knocked Buster out in that fight, we wouldn't have pointed to that as not being a prime Tyson.
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Re: Its very rare that a Heavyweight beats a 'great' in their prime
Id certainly add Homes/Cooney
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Re: Its very rare that a Heavyweight beats a 'great' in their prime
That was a great fight, one of my favorite ever in fact and while Cooney hit hard as hell, I'd stray very far from calling him a great fighter.
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Re: Its very rare that a Heavyweight beats a 'great' in their prime
Its very rare that a Heavyweight beats a 'great' in their prime
Of course it is because whoever the fighter is, as soon as they lose people will say he wasnt in his prime. Its the first excuse you hear after any high profile popular fighter is beaten.
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Re: Its very rare that a Heavyweight beats a 'great' in their prime
Quote:
Originally Posted by beerjelly
Its very rare that a Heavyweight beats a 'great' in their prime
Of course it is because whoever the fighter is, as soon as they lose people will say he wasnt in his prime. Its the first excuse you hear after any high profile popular fighter is beaten.
;) Exactly my point. CC.
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Re: Its very rare that a Heavyweight beats a 'great' in their prime
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Originally Posted by amat
That was a great fight, one of my favorite ever in fact and while Cooney hit hard as hell, I'd stray very far from calling him a great fighter.
At that point though Cooney was 25-0,and had just scored succesive knockouts on Ken Norton,Ron Lyle,and Jimmy Young,matter of fact he won his next 3 fights by KO,until finally sucumbing to age and Michael Spinks in 87
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Re: Its very rare that a Heavyweight beats a 'great' in their prime
the problem is some fighters (lewis) get credit for beating past it greats and some don't!
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Re: Its very rare that a Heavyweight beats a 'great' in their prime
Bowe/Holyfield
Douglas/Tyson sort of.
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Re: Its very rare that a Heavyweight beats a 'great' in their prime
cc JimB
Lennox Lewis lost to Oliver McCall and Hasim Rahman, during his run... especially Rahman, who he never should have lost to.
Well, he redeemed himself in the rematch.
Holyfield lost during his run in prime years too.
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Re: Its very rare that a Heavyweight beats a 'great' in their prime
Think Ali beat a old Liston he was like 35-38 maybe even older then that not taking anything away form Ali but in my book if you are 35 or 38 you are not a prime fighter anymore.
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Re: Its very rare that a Heavyweight beats a 'great' in their prime
I agree with you Jim Boogie, Ali's beating of Foreman was probably the only time a 'prime' heavyweight was defeated. However others could argue that Foreman hadn't fully developed his skills at that point becuase he was so used to knocking people out.
Ultimately it's a self fufilling prophecy, a fighter loses, there is ALWAYS a reason or excuse.
But imo Tyson was destoyed by Douglas in his prime. I mean how old was Tyson then? 26?
No way you could argue he was past it.
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Re: Its very rare that a Heavyweight beats a 'great' in their prime
What about Schmeling - Louis I ?
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Re: Its very rare that a Heavyweight beats a 'great' in their prime
Quote:
Originally Posted by X
What about Schmeling - Louis I ?
Luis wasn't world champ then ;)
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Re: Its very rare that a Heavyweight beats a 'great' in their prime
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
Bowe/Holyfield
Aha! Good one ;)
Actually what am i talking about.
Holyfield was a great Cruiserweight :P
Nearly ::**
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Re: Its very rare that a Heavyweight beats a 'great' in their prime
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
I agree with you Jim Boogie, Ali's beating of Foreman was probably the only time a 'prime' heavyweight was defeated. However others could argue that Foreman hadn't fully developed his skills at that point becuase he was so used to knocking people out.
Ultimately it's a self fufilling prophecy, a fighter loses, there is ALWAYS a reason or excuse.
But imo Tyson was destoyed by Douglas in his prime. I mean how old was Tyson then? 26?
No way you could argue he was past it.
Yeah your right. Its becasue Tyson was blatantly under prepared/ motivated that is kinda distracting me from that fact that he WAS only infact 24!
Although (and yes i didn't make myself clear at all...) my argument only applies to the debate of 'great' heavyweights and their 'great' victories.
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Re: Its very rare that a Heavyweight beats a 'great' in their prime
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by X
What about Schmeling - Louis I ?
Luis wasn't world champ then ;)
I know, but he was still a 'Great' and he was in his prime.
If the world champion was always the best fighter in the world, then there would never be new world champions - plus, I belive that you are either 'great' or you are not .... people don't suddenly become great, the fact that they are 'great' only becomes slowly revealed to us?
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Re: Its very rare that a Heavyweight beats a 'great' in their prime
Schmeling-Louis 1 is a great choice X.
Schmeling-Louis II
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Re: Its very rare that a Heavyweight beats a 'great' in their prime
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by X
What about Schmeling - Louis I ?
Luis wasn't world champ then ;)
Who the hell is LUIS??? ;D
Ali-Frazier all 3 of them
Ali-Foreman
Foreman-Frazier
Bowe-Holyfield 1-3
Lewis-Holyfield 1-2
Louis-Walcott 1-2
It's so difficult because great fighters don't usually come in bunches in the same division but there are some examples out there.
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Re: Its very rare that a Heavyweight beats a 'great' in their prime
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimboogie
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
How can Ali be past it,when he beats Foreman a year after Frazier beat him?
And how can Frazier be past it when Ali beats him a year after the Frazier fight?
:hypnotized:
Sorry, say that again ???
Just edited
If Foreman/Frazier was two greats in their prime
Ali beats Foreman 1 year after Frazier/Ali 1
So Frazier/Ali 1 would logically be two greats in their prime
And if Foreman/Frazier was two greats in their prime
Ali/Frazier 2 happened a year after it
You're confusing me, so let's get the chronology right, guys.
Ali-Frazier 1 - March 1971
Foreman-Frazier 1 - January 1973
Ali-Frazier 2 - January 1974
Ali-Foreman - October 1974 (not 1 year, but 3½ years after Ali-Frazier 1, and also after Ali-Frazier 2 had already taken place)
In Ali-Frazier 1 you had two greats, but only one, Frazier - the winner - in his prime. I think it's fair to describe Foreman-Frazier 1 as two greats in their prime (although it doesn't matter if Foreman wasn't as the requirement is that the loser is a great in their prime). However, some argue that Frazier's win over Ali took more out of the former than the latter, and he was never the same fighter again. Given the style of Foreman's win - a quick blitzing, as Frazier was just made for George - I think it's a moot point whether Frazier was still in his prime. Essentially, Foreman would have beaten a prime or sub-prime Frazier. Regarding Ali-Frazier 2, the question is still whether or not Frazier was prime following both a gruelling battle with Ali 3 years before and a devastating defeat a year earlier against Big George. Ali certainly wasn't prime, despite being the easy winner, but he didn't have to contend with a layoff unlike 3 years earlier (despite his two 1970 warmup fights). Honestly, I simply don't know if Frazier was still prime!
Regarding Ali-Foreman, I think it's safe to argue that Foreman was prime. Ali certainly wasn't, but the winner doesn't have to be, and the victory merely reinforced his own greatness and legend.
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Re: Its very rare that a Heavyweight beats a 'great' in their prime
Chagaev beat Valuev in his prime. He was 46-0 and beat some world class opposition in that record and was in no way protected at all ever!
Also, Shannon Briggs, one of the all time greats of world heavyweight boxing was beaten convincingly by Sultan Ibragimov.
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