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I was just looking over his record and couldnt help but think about how many more fights he could have won in that time span of three years, in the prime of his career no less. That just speaks for the man even more, he stood up for his beliefs and wouldnt be forced into service. If it wasnt for guys like Ali we might still have the draft today. I think this was his biggest accomplishment in and out of the ring.
this is the main reason why people call ali the greatest to stand up during t
also that made him to be known worldwide
which made him a hero
Ali was a great fighter. A great champion. But that's about it. He was not a great person. And he sure as hell was no hero. Ali looked out for Ali. And that's it. He had nothing to do with if the military draft is use or not. To give him credit for it is hilarious.
Very correct VD.....I think the SADDEST thing the US ever did to a boxer was what they did to Joe Louis after all he had done with the Army and inspiring people to support the war effort vs the Axis powers.
Joe got railroaded by the IRS and it left him destitute for the rest of his days
What happened Lyle I was looking forward to you coming on here and telling us what an overatted piece of scum Ali actually was.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
You disappoint me
Yeah. They did Joe Louis fucking dirty.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
Actually to NOT give him credit is hilarious,he'd have done one tour on what would have ammounted to a glorified USO tourQuote:
Originally Posted by Violent Demise
He made a MORAL stand
....yes MORALS.....Muhammed Ali......a guy who demened and belittled people of his own race simply to gain a psychological advantage in a professional fight which I might add is VIOLENT....maybe not the same kind of violence that happened in Vietnam but it's violent none the less.......so Morals and Ali don't mix
Yes of course,Frazier got carpet bombed and Marvis set up the killing fields in responseQuote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
Exactly the same of course
Your right,Feur was calling Pol Frazier when she was working out with him on Thursday
....fine don't realize boxing as a violent sport...boxing is violent, war is violent....you can't be for one and against the other simply on the basis of violence.....and when in history have the MUSLIMS been peaceful??
and let anyone else call a black man an Uncle Tom and watch where it gets them! Ali could do it because people hold him to a different standard than EVERYONE else.
First offQuote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
There is a massive difference between a gun shot and a punch
You dishonor the entire sport by suggesting otherwise
Secondly when have Christians been peaceful?I refer you to the inquisition,and the crusades
Thirdly,Ali and Joe have made their peace,your attempt to keep pumping it is a cheap attempt to politicise a fight for your own intrest
Im from Philly,Ive trained at Fraziers,my fighter was in Fraziers this Thursday,and you are full of it
Keep your damned political agenda away,its sports not politics,but seeing your politics I can see why it blurs for you
Lets not get my post twisted (cough) VD (cough) I wasnt crediting Ali with abolishing the draft. There is one thing that is a fact , there is no draft now. "Stand with anybody that stands RIGHT. Stand with him while he is right and PART with him when he goes wrong."-Abraham Lincoln. Ali' took a stand against what he thought was a unjust war, a war that was never won, and cost numerous lives. I'm just giving him props for having his own beliefs and sticking to them. Think whatever you want about the war and the draft.
:coolclick: Now that's the Lyle I've come to know and love. If you follow this up with some Wlad :splurt: then you'll be truly back to form ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
OH DO I??? Boxing is a MARTIAL art and therefore is a system of combat much like shooting people with guns only in the professional genre of the sport people don't usually die on purpose.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
If Ali was a Christian he could have just as easily said the same thing being a Christian and I would have argued the same point....Inquisition and all just like you did.
...I don't pump it up, I'm merely pointing out that if Ali LOVED everyone as a true religious/spiritual person then he wouldn't have strived so hard to offend guys like Joe Frazier...I am happy Joe was the bigger man and let bygons be bygons.
My point is that it's a little convenient for Ali to become so religious when his ass is about to be shipped over to Vietnam....kind of like George W. getting in the National Guard....I have no issues with that really but it was another way out of going to Vietnam but alas it's a LEGAL way out.
Muhammed Ali is a hero to many people, obviously not to me, I don't doubt that he was great or whatever but I am not going to say he's without his faults.
Don't attack me, hell if everyone agreed on everything there wouldn't be any debating at all....(unless they all agreed that there should be debating)...I am one of the people who don't agree with Ali....I'm not a racist or a bigot or anything evil....I don't have to agree with him and what he did and you don't have to agree with me so if it gets you all riled up, I'm sorry but you're going to have to suck it up and be a man and deal with it
Joe Louis wasn't paying his income taxes before he went in the army. He got bad advice(wait till your tax dept gets huge then make a deal with the govt) Before he knew it, the taxes he never paid eclipsed the amount of money he had.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
ALthough he was a great fighter and man, the not paying taxed part was a little bit of his fault.
No he didn't pay taxes on EXHIBITION boxing matches he performed for the US Army....also deductions were not made for his contributions to nonprofit organizations and so on
Also Jack Johnson and Jack Dempsey got drug through the mud as well
True, but he also wasn't paying (federal) taxes on any of his fights from 1931 to 1939. But I dont want to be bashing Joe Louis. He was a great guy.
Lets not turn this into a religious or political thread(I know the subject isnt really conducive to that)What I really was getting at was how much could those 3 years have changed the Ali that we all know. It was 3 years in his prime.
Yes you doQuote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
Its like saying a martial artist exists only to hit people,rather then knowing how and not
Suck it up and deal with it
And again Ali wouldnt have seen one ounce of combat,he'd have done exhibitions in safe zones
My dad did fight in the damn thing,he'd have never seen Ali,wouldnt have been safe enough
Dundee said it himself that we have never seen the best of him. I think that period made all the difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by No Contest
....what happened to agreeing to disagree.
Fine hate me because I don't love Ali....if that's the way it's going to be it won't be fun for anyone
Lyle
My Great Uncle Tony served at Pearl Harbour
My Dad served in Nam
Both as Marines
Im somehow able to see the difference between Kata 3,an Uppercut,a Rap,and napalm
Should stay out of this one, and sorry No Contest I know this topic doesn't help much, but Ali didn't "all the sudden" become religous to get out of the war. It wasn't like he was given his draft number then all of the sudden he was a Black Muslim.
Anyways, take 3 years of their prime out of most any great fighter in history, and I bet there is no way most any of them become the best of all time in their division. I mean, some guys are considered because of what they do in just 3 years, Ali had that taken away from him and is still undoubtedly (in my mind) the greatest Heavyweight of all time.
I won't even argue anymore...just go ahead....let's all follow Ali, greatest ever....let's never question ANY of his decisions.....the decision has been made so start following everyone....everyone fall in line
Way to take the low road while pretending to take the high oneQuote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
How many hours of Oreilly do you watch a week?
Go ahead and argue man, Im reading your points. I never liked Ali as much as everyone else does until I got past the brash talking bravado. I always wanted Frazier in those three fights. Frazier was my favorite and I didnt agree with Ali's calling him a gorilla, and all that junk, but it sold a hell of a lot of tickets. I actually laughed when Frazier went after him in that interview.I not a Ali worshipper just giving him credit where credit is due.
I don't watch O'Reilly and does it really matter what I post in this thread now? Just because I don't agree with everything Ali did I'm a pariah... oh and I only disagree with Ali because I'm a mean hateful person who is not related to anyone who ever served in the military EVER....and I kick vets and spit on them whenever I get the chance because they believe in Ali too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
I cc'd you Lyle for being against the grain, sticking to your belief and not liking Ali...see thats what Ali did back when he refused the draft. ;)
Ok here we go ON TOPIC, this will not involve any personal attacks or any defense of my views.
Muhammed Ali was a racist just as much as George Wallace, he wanted segregation, he called Ernie Terrell an Uncle Tom...I mean let's reminisce shall we
"We who follow the teachings of Elijah Muhammad don't want to be forced to integrate. Integration is wrong. We don't want to live with the white man; that's all."
"No intelligent black man or black woman in his or her right black mind wants white boys and white girls coming to their homes to marry their black sons and daughters"
All the Nation of Islam "white devil" stuff was coming out of Ali's mouth the same time this stand against the US bullcrap was going around in regards to Vietnam. And Ali called it a "christian war" too.
I am very pleased that I am not alone in my beliefs http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main...04/bfali04.xml
On a related topic, if we still had national service (similar to a draft) here in the UK, we would have less chavvy hoodie thugs loitering around the street mugging and killing people.
It would be much better to send them to Iraq to kill them instead.
Here's what you don't understand about the whole ali thing, he was unqualified to serve. The government gave him a test and he failed it thus making him unsuitable for combat. Once the war picked up the government went against their previously set up protocols and made ali eligible to be drafted. If ali was originally eligible to serve this wouldn't of been the big deal that it is but because the government basically changed their own rules just to try and get ali to serve and then hand out punishment for something he shouldn't of been able to do in the first place makes it a crime.
I'm not standing here calling ali a saint, the man was probably the biggest shit talker in the history of the sport but atleast he backed it up. Of course boxing is a violent sport but there's more of a competition factor to it than there is in war. "War doesn't determine who's right, it determines who's left"-patton (maybe?). Martin Luther King wanted nothing to do with ali because he considered ali a violent man and that was against everything king believed in. I'm not saying ali stood as a symbol of something richeous but he stood his ground for HIS beliefs despite the unjust punishment they threatened and carried out against him and that deserves some recognition.
HAHAHA.. you could not have put it any better.. really.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
How is boxing being compared to actual war? The most ludicrous thing i've heard in a while. Trainer monkey is right on the money.. It's actually not even a matter of opinion, it's a fact. The only way 'war' can be related to boxing is when used figuratively, eg: "The 'war' between Gatti and Ward"
and saying you can't be for one and against the other is laughable. Boxing is a sport, war is not. Sports are for entertainment, among other things, war is not. If you watch boxing because you like violence then that's not normal.. and i'm not saying you can't be pumped up for a fight and want someone to get KTFO cause thats part of the sport.. but killing is not. War is about killing for the (hopefully) better of your country.. There is NO comparison... laughable.
I was thinking his record would be about 61-2 my resoning is that he wins about 2 fights per year those 3 years, and isnt as haggard by the time he fights Spinks, Holmes, and Berbick. I subtracted those fights reasoning that he would retire before those.
Ali generally fought much more frequently than that. In 1966 he fought five times, and by only March of 1967, when he was banned, he had already had two bouts that year. In 1971, his first full active year in his comeback, he fought four times, and in 1972 he fought six times!Quote:
Originally Posted by No Contest
I see you are retaining Ali's loss to Frazier in 1971. Of course this is just an academic exercise, but if Ali had not been banned, he would most probably have faced Frazier in '68 or '69, who would have been a (if not the) leading contender, which would have favoured Ali much more than March 1971 following his inactivity. Conceivably they might have met two or three times by the early '70s! Who knows how Ali would have changed his style without the enforced inactivity. He may have seen off Frazier by the early 70s, remaining unbeaten and threatening Joe Louis's record number of defences well into that decade. Alternatively, he may not have adapted to a gradual erosion of skills in the same way that he did with his inactivity; he may have taken his contenders too lightly on the back of an unbeaten run, or earlier wars with Frazier might have taken their toll; he might not have had his jaw freakishly broken by Norton, but he may not have conceived of the rope-a-dope against Foreman, who would have been a mere contender, and the fight might have occurred earlier and probably not in Zaire! Just some food for thought...
Nice, Ali was a arrogant hypocrite as wellQuote:
Originally Posted by Violent Demise
didnt you just slam him for not keeping politics out of this... what does oreily have to do with anything?? way to keep politics outQuote:
Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey
lyles point is that ali is a hypocrite.... his profession is to beat people up... but he is against violence...when its benificial for him
ali could have served the country that gave him so much.. and tour the world boxing just like louis... there wasnt going to be any battles he would have to fight in.... but he had to be a self-centered dick take the money from the american soldiers that paid for his fights.... but in return wouldnt even give them a free match for their service for FIGHTING FOR HIM....
he should have been banned from boxing... why should america give him anything...when he wouldnt give america anything... he is a border line traitor
To: punisher... he wasnt allowed in the military because he didnt do well on his (well he was book stupid)... but to fight exhibitions around the world ..yeah i think your intellegance is irrelevant when your a champ and could do good morale for your country by boxing..
i have never agreed with one of violent demise's statements more... he is dead on!!!
sorry no contest: for not staying on point... its very hard to speculate about the 3 years... it was his prime... but then again it left him fresher for the later years.. not the real, real, late years.. i dont think he would have been know as any better boxer though... he could have had bad luck and got beat by frazier and foreman in a row... its not like ali just dominated them.. if he lost to them and not of been banned his "what if" status would have been gone...
the "what if" factor is marciano's biggest attribute... who really knows how good he was... he was never beat...what if
now there was a real "CHAMP"...not only did he serve but how many "prime" years did he lose out on?....Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
I always wondered why Ali just didn't fight overseas during the three years...I've read the biography, but I don't recall a real explanation.....anyone know?
Because he is a overatted big mouth bitch, Joe Louis was the real American hero...Quote:
Originally Posted by VanChilds
I don't know...but might ISLAM have played a part in it? Or the people involved in it that were in Ali's ear?...Quote:
Originally Posted by VanChilds