What if Marciano hadn't retired?

If we say that Rock fought until 1959 which would have him retire at 36, and take out the management issues what fights were out there for him to make and how would he have faired? Obviously there is Patterson and Ingemar....Floyd is a great fighter but eventually would get his bell rung after out boxing Rock for several rounds...Ingemar was a slugger and would get KO'd inside two rounds....I think that Liston is to young, who else would have been there from 1955 to 1959 for Marciano to fight, and how is was there anyone out there that could have put an L on his record?

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Originally Posted by VanChilds

If we say that Rock fought until 1959 which would have him retire at 36, and take out the management issues what fights were out there for him to make and how would he have faired? Obviously there is Patterson and Ingemar....Floyd is a great fighter but eventually would get his bell rung after out boxing Rock for several rounds...Ingemar was a slugger and would get KO'd inside two rounds....I think that Liston is to young, who else would have been there from 1955 to 1959 for Marciano to fight, and how is was there anyone out there that could have put an L on his record?

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I don't really see an "L"...maybe a 58-0 record......but remember he didn't retire because he was even remotely fading...he retired because his wife made him.....

Rocky would ahve stopped everyone until he ran into a young Sonny Liston, who would have been too strong and too big. What a fight but remember Rocky could have made light-heavyweight and Liston was a monster.

whenever i think of rocky i think of those crushing double left hooks he threw... man was that a shot...

i have no idea if he would or wouldnt have lost though... probably not he was a young 36 he didnt start boxing until real late... so he could have fought in his prime 3 more years...

his mom gave him h*ll for boxing too.... >:mad

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Originally Posted by Fire

whenever i think of rocky i think of those crushing double left hooks he threw... man was that a shot...

i have no idea if he would or wouldnt have lost though... probably not he was a young 36 he didnt start boxing until real late... so he could have fought in his prime 3 more years...

his mom gave him h*ll for boxing too.... >:mad

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you're riht on about that....His mother and wife did the old double team action on him...he was constantly being hasseled about it....that takes something out of you....

He might have had too many problems with Floyd's speed and ability to punch. Marciano had been put down a few times, and he had been outboxed a few times. I also think Marciano would have been destroyed by Liston.

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Originally Posted by Taeth

He might have had too many problems with Floyd's speed and ability to punch. Marciano had been put down a few times, and he had been outboxed a few times. I also think Marciano would have been destroyed by Liston.

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Agreed Patterson had some of the fastest hands ever in hw history very underrated speed but his chin was made of glass Patterson would be able to outbox Marciano for few rounds but then he would be koed while ahead on points but imo Liston would destory Marciano his jab and overall boxing skills i think are way too much for Marciano.

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Originally Posted by Big Jack

Rocky would ahve stopped everyone until he ran into a young Sonny Liston, who would have been too strong and too big. What a fight but remember Rocky could have made light-heavyweight and Liston was a monster.

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I agree with that Big Jack cc for the good post.

Oooo thats a good what if.... maybe a rematch with Archie Moore. The only other few I can think of around then he didnt beat up already were Patterson, Liston, Johanssen, Zora Folley, and maybe Maxim. I think he would have beat them all because they were pretty young at that time Liston and Pattersone would have given him good fights. Imagine the bombs in Marciano Vs. Liston, thats a hard fight to pick theyre both brawlers with that one shot power.

So outside of Patterson, Ingemar and a very young Liston is there anyone else from 56-59 that he would have fought...what at about LHW who was at the top of the food chain at LHW in those years?

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Originally Posted by VanChilds

If we say that Rock fought until 1959 which would have him retire at 36, and take out the management issues what fights were out there for him to make and how would he have faired? Obviously there is Patterson and Ingemar....Floyd is a great fighter but eventually would get his bell rung after out boxing Rock for several rounds...Ingemar was a slugger and would get KO'd inside two rounds....I think that Liston is to young, who else would have been there from 1955 to 1959 for Marciano to fight, and how is was there anyone out there that could have put an L on his record?

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Obviously Rocky saw an L coming
Probably Patterson with his superior reach,maybe Johanson with his similar style and superior power

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Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey

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Originally Posted by VanChilds

If we say that Rock fought until 1959 which would have him retire at 36, and take out the management issues what fights were out there for him to make and how would he have faired? Obviously there is Patterson and Ingemar....Floyd is a great fighter but eventually would get his bell rung after out boxing Rock for several rounds...Ingemar was a slugger and would get KO'd inside two rounds....I think that Liston is to young, who else would have been there from 1955 to 1959 for Marciano to fight, and how is was there anyone out there that could have put an L on his record?

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Obviously Rocky saw an L coming
Probably Patterson with his superior reach,maybe Johanson with his similar style and superior power

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Floyds longer reach lol
For the record Rocky even to this date has the shortest reach of any heavyweight champ , so any future oponant was lickly to have longer reach :)

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Originally Posted by Big Jack

Rocky would ahve stopped everyone until he ran into a young Sonny Liston, who would have been too strong and too big. What a fight but remember Rocky could have made light-heavyweight and Liston was a monster.

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Yeah, Rocky would have walked through Patterson and Johannsen ........ Cleveland Williams could have given him some problems, though as well?

I think Liston was the first 'modern heavyweight' in terms oif size and skill.

Liston wasn't very young in the late 50s. It's been a matter of some debate as to how old he really was when he fought Clay/Ali, but if anything was thought to have been older rather than younger. In the late 50s, he would have been at least in his mid to late twenties (he was born in 1932 according to boxrec), and had defeated the likes of Cleveland Williams and I think Folley etc. He would have been old enough and experienced enough to have taken on Marciano.

Like others, I would have favoured him over the Rock. I know it's heresy to some, but I think Marciano's record if you consider quality at the top level isn't so impressive. He fought an ageing Walcott in his (Marciano's) 43rd fight to take the title, and was behind until the (admittedly great) knockout. He only made six defences, of which one was against Walcott, and three were against ageing, blown-up lightheavies (Charles x 2, and Moore).

I say RObinson goes up to heavyweight and beats him.

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Originally Posted by THE Bigragu

I don't really see an "L"...maybe a 58-0 record......but remember he didn't retire because he was even remotely fading...he retired because his wife made him.....

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And his manager was stealing money from him....there was talk of a Marciano-Johannsen fight but it never came to fruition.

His back was also hurting him in training....I can tell you throwing haymakers on a heavybag round after round will fuck your back up.

Marciano-Patterson would have been a GREAT fight. Marciano-Liston would have been good as well and I wouldn't be sold on a Liston victory either as I have seen Sonny beaten before buy fighters he couldn't bully and Rocky wouldn't be bullied that's for sure

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Originally Posted by Lyle

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Originally Posted by THE Bigragu

I don't really see an "L"...maybe a 58-0 record......but remember he didn't retire because he was even remotely fading...he retired because his wife made him.....

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And his manager was stealing money from him....there was talk of a Marciano-Johannsen fight but it never came to fruition.

His back was also hurting him in training....I can tell you throwing haymakers on a heavybag round after round will F*** your back up.

Marciano-Patterson would have been a GREAT fight. Marciano-Liston would have been good as well and I wouldn't be sold on a Liston victory either as I have seen Sonny beaten before buy fighters he couldn't bully and Rocky wouldn't be bullied that's for sure

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Yeah good point Lyle, Rocky without doubt had one of , if the THE, best heart i have seen from a Heavy. Wouldnt be able to intimidate him, and you never quite know with him becuase as he keeps on coming and coming, eventually hes bound to land and needs a VERY strong chin to take that Suzie-Q flush.

I think his best combo was the left hook followed by the right uppercut...he finished a lot of guys off with that too.

He had KO power in each hand and he'd hit you with the kitchen sink if you gave him the chance, as Archie Moore found out, he forearmed Archie on the top of the head while beating him into submission.

And Rocky never really got hurt by anyone's punches he got knocked down plenty of times but he never wobbled or got truly hurt by a punch....his defense wasn't good at all but his awkward style and constant pressure made it hard for his opponent to catch him multiple times with full power without getting nailed in return

If he'd have carried on and fought up to 1959 I reckon he'd have lost to both Patterson and Liston. Not because they were better, but because Rocky would have been way on the slide by then. As Lyle said, he struggled with his back by the end and was fed up with the training.

It's a pity really because we missed out on a Liston/Marciano fight by just a coupled of years, which would have been IMO one of the best match ups in history. Prime for prime I'd still pick Liston to win due to his size advantage, but Rocky would have given it a hell of a go.

Liston and patterson would give him problems but i'm not completely sold on him losing those fights handily. Patterson was annihilated by liston twice, so a power puncher that just keeps coming would have a good shot at beating patterson. Liston would be arguably the toughest fights of rocky's career and when you throw in his age by then, it doesn't look good but it wouldn't be impossible. Now fighting some guy named Cassius Clay around the time rock was approaching 40, is completely ill-advised.

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Originally Posted by Lyle

he got knocked down plenty of times

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I don't think so, Lyle - he was only knocked down twice in his entire career (Walcott and Moore). The Walcott knockdown was only a flash knockdown as he got straight back up and steamed into Jersey Joe.

I can't think of any other heavyweight champion who was actually knocked down less times than Rocky.

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Originally Posted by X

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Originally Posted by Lyle

he got knocked down plenty of times

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I don't think so, Lyle - he was only knocked down twice in his entire career (Walcott and Moore). The Walcott knockdown was only a flash knockdown as he got straight back up and steamed into Jersey Joe.

I can't think of any other heavyweight champion who was actually knocked down less times than Rocky.

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2 times is right. Vitali never went down but he doesn't have the status of marciano or ali so i'm not sure if he's completely eligible for debate here. Ali only went down 4 times i think (Frazier 1, Wepner, Cooper, and i think there was 1 more). Twice is impressive.

Joe Louis knocked him down early in their fight

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Originally Posted by Lyle

Joe Louis knocked him down early in their fight

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No, definitely not ....... I'm pretty sure it was only Walcott and Moore (there was big deal made during the walcott fight as it was his world title challenge and he had been knocked down for the first time in his career). He fought Louis before that, and was not knocked over.

I'm confident I'm right on this one, but if anyone knows for sure to settle the debate, I would stand to be corrected.

Whichever way we look at it, twice or three times is still very impressive!

Joe Loius did not knock him down.

Marciano was getting old and eventually would have lost due to the hard training. He was desperate to win his 50th fight and tried to make a comeback when Patterson lost. It is reported he said that his back was done, and he could not beat Johansen. Even in his prime he would have lost to Liston in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by VanChilds

If we say that Rock fought until 1959 which would have him retire at 36, and take out the management issues what fights were out there for him to make and how would he have faired? Obviously there is Patterson and Ingemar....Floyd is a great fighter but eventually would get his bell rung after out boxing Rock for several rounds...Ingemar was a slugger and would get KO'd inside two rounds....I think that Liston is to young, who else would have been there from 1955 to 1959 for Marciano to fight, and how is was there anyone out there that could have put an L on his record?

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Marciano was fading the moore fight was evidence of this. If he had continued boxing he would have lost to patterson or johannson.

Misconception about Liston that he was a bully
Look at Liston/Whitehurst
When Liston was at his best he was a methodical stalker,who not unlike Holmes used a powerful piston of a jab to wear down an opponent,Marciano would have been tailor made for Liston

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Originally Posted by X

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Originally Posted by Lyle

he got knocked down plenty of times

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I don't think so, Lyle - he was only knocked down twice in his entire career (Walcott and Moore). The Walcott knockdown was only a flash knockdown as he got straight back up and steamed into Jersey Joe.

I can't think of any other heavyweight champion who was actually knocked down less times than Rocky.

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kind of skirting the rules here but other than to Tyson did Spinks ever go down?

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Originally Posted by VanChilds

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Originally Posted by X

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Originally Posted by Lyle

he got knocked down plenty of times

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I don't think so, Lyle - he was only knocked down twice in his entire career (Walcott and Moore). The Walcott knockdown was only a flash knockdown as he got straight back up and steamed into Jersey Joe.

I can't think of any other heavyweight champion who was actually knocked down less times than Rocky.

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kind of skirting the rules here but other than to Tyson did Spinks ever go down?

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He was knocked down by Dwight Muhammad Qawi i don't believe anyone else floored him other than Qawi and Tyson.

walcott > marciano

He was a damn good fighter but it'd just the way it works n boxing & in life. It's just a matter off time

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Originally Posted by Big Jack

Rocky would ahve stopped everyone until he ran into a young Sonny Liston, who would have been too strong and too big. What a fight but remember Rocky could have made light-heavyweight and Liston was a monster.

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Liston would demolish Marciano

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Originally Posted by VanChilds

If we say that Rock fought until 1959 which would have him retire at 36, and take out the management issues what fights were out there for him to make and how would he have faired? Obviously there is Patterson and Ingemar....Floyd is a great fighter but eventually would get his bell rung after out boxing Rock for several rounds...Ingemar was a slugger and would get KO'd inside two rounds....I think that Liston is to young, who else would have been there from 1955 to 1959 for Marciano to fight, and how is was there anyone out there that could have put an L on his record?

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Marciano would have been knocked out by Floyd Patterson who had speed and was quick. Marciano had the career which Mike Tyson would have had had he retired after Spinks. Can you imagine how great Mike would look now had he retired after he beat Spinks? Or how great Leonard would look if he retired after Hagler. Or Hagler after Hearns. ??

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Originally Posted by Punisher136

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Originally Posted by X

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Originally Posted by Lyle

he got knocked down plenty of times

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I don't think so, Lyle - he was only knocked down twice in his entire career (Walcott and Moore). The Walcott knockdown was only a flash knockdown as he got straight back up and steamed into Jersey Joe.

I can't think of any other heavyweight champion who was actually knocked down less times than Rocky.

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2 times is right. Vitali never went down but he doesn't have the status of marciano or ali so i'm not sure if he's completely eligible for debate here. Ali only went down 4 times i think (Frazier 1, Wepner, Cooper, and i think there was 1 more). Twice is impressive.

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The other Ali knockdown was his first one - a flash knockdown to Sonny Banks in 1962. The last knockdown officially stands, but it's dubious: Ali claimed Wepner stood on his foot as Wepner threw a punch, and the tape suggests this was the case - and Wepner didn't have the power to deck Ali genuinely!

Marciano would have lost to a young Patterson and then retired, Liston would have won by KO in 3 or 4 rounds.

Maybe by tko, I don't think anyone could knock the rock out in 3, I'm not sure they had tkos back then tho...

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Originally Posted by LegendBoxing65

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Originally Posted by VanChilds

If we say that Rock fought until 1959 which would have him retire at 36, and take out the management issues what fights were out there for him to make and how would he have faired? Obviously there is Patterson and Ingemar....Floyd is a great fighter but eventually would get his bell rung after out boxing Rock for several rounds...Ingemar was a slugger and would get KO'd inside two rounds....I think that Liston is to young, who else would have been there from 1955 to 1959 for Marciano to fight, and how is was there anyone out there that could have put an L on his record?

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Marciano would have been knocked out by Floyd Patterson who had speed and was quick. Marciano had the career which Mike Tyson would have had had he retired after Spinks. Can you imagine how great Mike would look now had he retired after he beat Spinks? Or how great Leonard would look if he retired after Hagler. Or Hagler after Hearns. ??

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yes patterson was quick, but his china chin wouldnt have alowed him to stand up 2 marciano--yes marciano is slower than him, but so was liston-if liston could ko him marciano could 2. i think marciano would have remained undefeated until liston came along. he would have been an old man against liston and liston woulda ko'd him.

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Originally Posted by SEANIE

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Originally Posted by VanChilds

If we say that Rock fought until 1959 which would have him retire at 36, and take out the management issues what fights were out there for him to make and how would he have faired? Obviously there is Patterson and Ingemar....Floyd is a great fighter but eventually would get his bell rung after out boxing Rock for several rounds...Ingemar was a slugger and would get KO'd inside two rounds....I think that Liston is to young, who else would have been there from 1955 to 1959 for Marciano to fight, and how is was there anyone out there that could have put an L on his record?

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Marciano was fading the moore fight was evidence of this. If he had continued boxing he would have lost to patterson or johannson.

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archie moore is a legend, who can whup fighters half his age. moore was a quality opponent,
yea marciano floored moore like what 5 times and went into his non stop punching routines. so your right marciano was definitaly fading ::**

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Originally Posted by SalTheButcher

walcott > marciano

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if walcott was greater he woulda won

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Originally Posted by undefeated

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Originally Posted by SalTheButcher

walcott > marciano

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if walcott was greater he woulda won

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Playing devil's advocate, that's a bit simplistic. Marciano beat Joe Louis, but there are a lot of people (probably a majority) who believe Louis was a greater heavyweight than Rocky.