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What if Ali had not existed? Liston would have been champion longer maybe not long enough to hand the torch to Frazier, who would have created a better legacy until he ran into Foreman, who would have been champion until he lost to Jimmy Young. I bet Foreman would have also fought Holmes which would have been an excellent fight which I think at that time Foreman would have lost.
Umm good question Liston would of reigned along time Frazier would of ended up the same losing to Foreman twice then retiring Foreman would of beat Jimmy Young i believe prime Foreman would and Holmes and Foreman would of fought god knows who would of won that and i believe Holmes would of been less underrated if Ali had not existed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Hard to imagine isnt it?
Doubt Liston would have made it to Frazier,the Leotis Martin loss proves that
Be interesting to surmise who would have gotten him though?
Foley,Chuvallo,Williams,Terrell?
Foreman wouldn't have lost to Young IMO had he not lost to Ali previously
Part of what makes the topic interestingQuote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
Do Foreman and Listons later losses have something to do with Ali destroying the air of invincibility they both had
tyson and jones would eb the greatest beacuse theu wouldnt ahve to fill alis shoes
Jones???Quote:
Originally Posted by the phenom
Forgetting Joe Louis and Rocky Marciano are we??
I don't understand this at all how would Jones be greatest hw ??Quote:
Originally Posted by the phenom
I think this to because Foreman was too safe in first few rounds against Young and thats what cost him the decision.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
Foreman would also be considered THE GREATEST as he would fight everyone who was anyone and beat them up until Holmes comes along and hell he could beat Holmes too but George was a tad self destructive before he found Jesus so maybe he ends up doing the same thing.
If Ali had not existed boxing as an entertainment aspect would not be as good...Trash talk ring entrances ect...He was the pioneer....
That and Joe Louis would be considered the greatest HW of all time
SRL would have picked up some of the slack, but I think Ali was a one in a million.
Fighters could actually be credited for what they did/do. Up until ali came around you couldn't say that one era was better than another. You just had to figure that each era's champs fought who was there and that was that, there was never a measuring stick like him around before. Joe Louis dominated as did the champs before him but no one ever tryed to claim that they were the best. Ali brought trash talking and the other era's into perspective like they hadn't been before. Now you have to look back and say is ____ really as good as foreman/frazier was? Was their competition really THAT good?
A lot of people try to maintain the argument that everyone can only fight those who are available to them and that era's shouldn't be compared like that but because of ali, i don't think its possible. I mean in every era you're gonna have your fast guys (patterson, tillis, byrd, ali), your power guys (Foreman, louis, tyson, vitali), your brawlers (brewster, marciano, liston, frazier) but now you'll get the line "How can you possibly compare them to each other?". Without him they'd still be compared, but we wouldn't be calling former heavyweight champions (abc belts or not) bums. He set the standard for any era, and thats something that was never done before.
It's a good thing (even tho it doesn't sound like it) because it has set boxing a place in history that it can never lose simply because no athlete has ever transcended their sport more than ali did. Yeah jordan was huge and still is but jordan is an american icon and not a global one.
The only good thing that stands out if there was never an ali is that we wouldn't have to hear from his daughter anymore...some of you here know that there are almost no fighters i dislike but layla ali and ruiz are two that would be on that list if i had to come up with one...
there wouldnt been as much quotes
i think srr be recongnized in the general public
its to hard to imagine
I reckon Liston would have stayed champ for another four years, beating Cleveland Williams, Zora Foley, Eddie Machen, Ernie Terrell etc until he was an old man and battered by a young Joe Frazier.
Frazier would ahev stayed champ until he ran into Foreman who would have smashed everyone - Spinks, Norton etc until he ran into a young Larry Holmes in about 1978-79.
Totally agree here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
Me tooQuote:
Originally Posted by Jimboogie
Thank you Mr and Mrs Clay you dont get the thanks you deserve. Im just glad it happened in my lifetime it was a Joy.
I actually think that MMA would have been popular sooner.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Ali really changed the game.
That was what I was trying to get at. That Ali fought 3 great heavyweight champions and no other heavyweight could say they did the same. One maybe two but not three great fighters in their career. Which is why he is the greatest heavyweight of all time, no doubt about it. Joe Louis would be second I'm my opinion and the rest we can argue about.
Hold on a second ...... am I missing something here?Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
If Ali fought three great heavyweight champions (and let's assume that you mean Liston, Frazier and Foreman), we know that Frazier and Foreman fought each other as well as fighting Ali. Foreman also fought Evander Holyfield.
So Foreman can say that for a start .....
8)
Ali BEAT 3 great heavyweight champions is what i think he meant. Foreman didn't beat ali or evander and frazier never beat foreman.Quote:
Originally Posted by X
Yes, well old 'batesey' (as I now like to refer to Master) should write down in clear English what he actually means, not write down something different to that which he really meant to say.Quote:
Originally Posted by Punisher136
That's the point of writing, I thought.
I mean, where would we be if, for example, politicians said things that they did not mean ..... confusion would reign! ;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Marciano fought Walcott,,Charles and Louis,,
Holyfield fought Bowe, Lewis and Tyson
Foreman fought Frazier, Ali, Holyfield
Berbwick beat Ali ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by DaxxKahn
Come on -
Charles was a Light Heavyweight who had had over 90 fights
Walcott was about 40 and had had about 70 fights
Moore was a Light Heavyweight with about 150 fights
They DO NOT counts when trying to justify Marciano's record, no more than McBride beating Tyson or Berbwick beating Ali
I meant Ali fighting and beating 3 great fighters in their prime. No other great heavyweight could say the same.