TOP 10 best ever users of the PHILLY SHELL DEFENSE

AND IS THERE ANY SOUTH PAW USERS

Lol.. Youve been playing too much Fight night! :P

But i will list a few..I dont know about ten..

1: James Toney
2:Floyd Mayweather
3:Archie Moore
4:Jersey joe
5:Bernard Hopkins

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Originally Posted by Tito_BHB

Lol.. Youve been playing too much Fight night! :P

But i will list a few..I dont know about ten..

1: James Toney
2:Floyd Mayweather
3:Archie Moore
4:Jersey joe
5:Bernard Hopkins

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No Frazier????????

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Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey

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Originally Posted by Tito_BHB

Lol.. Youve been playing too much Fight night! :P

But i will list a few..I dont know about ten..

1: James Toney
2:Floyd Mayweather
3:Archie Moore
4:Jersey joe
5:Bernard Hopkins

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No Frazier????????

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I never really condidered him to use the 'philly shell' in that way tbh..

Lol..Right it stops here..No more philly shell.. Its Shoulder roll!! :P SHOULDER ROLL!

Lol.. I suppose in a way you could consider that but i never really have and i wouldnt say he was quite prominant with his defense as the rest or that his was really the best.. I mEAN

The Mummy Foreman smashed him :P

Hell brah,who do you think taught it to B-hop?

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Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey

Hell brah,who do you think taught it to B-hop?

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Lol..Whenever someone says brah i always think of dog the bounty hunter :laugh:

If you guys had the same hair you might be lookalikes too! :laugh:

Lol..I forget his name ..I believe it was loui something.. But he worked on alot of the foundations of Bhop in Philly penetentiary..

Sorry for the spelling..You see in england..We call it prison ;) :P

Did Kenny Norton use the philly shell or a form of it ?

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Originally Posted by Tito_BHB

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Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey

Hell brah,who do you think taught it to B-hop?

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Lol..Whenever someone says brah i always think of dog the bounty hunter :laugh:

If you guys had the same hair you might be lookalikes too! :laugh:

Lol..I forget his name ..I believe it was loui something.. But he worked on alot of the foundations of Bhop in Philly penetentiary..

Sorry for the spelling..You see in england..We call it prison ;) :P

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Naw that guy taught him just enough to lose his first fight
After that he was trained by Fraziers

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Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey

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Originally Posted by Tito_BHB

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Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey

Hell brah,who do you think taught it to B-hop?

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Lol..Whenever someone says brah i always think of dog the bounty hunter :laugh:

If you guys had the same hair you might be lookalikes too! :laugh:

Lol..I forget his name ..I believe it was loui something.. But he worked on alot of the foundations of Bhop in Philly penetentiary..

Sorry for the spelling..You see in england..We call it prison ;) :P

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Naw that guy taught him just enough to lose his first fight
After that he was trained by Fraziers

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In Fact i believe his name was Bouie..Lol

Nahh man i cant believe that yo.. On Bhops behind the glory he gives so much credit to that dude..

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Originally Posted by Tito_BHB

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Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey

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Originally Posted by Tito_BHB

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Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey

Hell brah,who do you think taught it to B-hop?

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Lol..Whenever someone says brah i always think of dog the bounty hunter :laugh:

If you guys had the same hair you might be lookalikes too! :laugh:

Lol..I forget his name ..I believe it was loui something.. But he worked on alot of the foundations of Bhop in Philly penetentiary..

Sorry for the spelling..You see in england..We call it prison ;) :P

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Naw that guy taught him just enough to lose his first fight
After that he was trained by Fraziers

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In Fact i believe his name was Bouie..Lol

Nahh man i cant believe that yo.. On Bhops behind the glory he gives so much credit to that dude..

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Trust me son,I know the Gym
Joe worked with him specifically

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Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey

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Originally Posted by Tito_BHB

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Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey

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Originally Posted by Tito_BHB

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Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey

Hell brah,who do you think taught it to B-hop?

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Lol..Whenever someone says brah i always think of dog the bounty hunter :laugh:

If you guys had the same hair you might be lookalikes too! :laugh:

Lol..I forget his name ..I believe it was loui something.. But he worked on alot of the foundations of Bhop in Philly penetentiary..

Sorry for the spelling..You see in england..We call it prison ;) :P

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Naw that guy taught him just enough to lose his first fight
After that he was trained by Fraziers

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In Fact i believe his name was Bouie..Lol

Nahh man i cant believe that yo.. On Bhops behind the glory he gives so much credit to that dude..

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Trust me son,I know the Gym
Joe worked with him specifically

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Yo man thats a bit dispespectful

I never said joe didnt work with him and i never said you didnt know gym

I said his original trainer probably deserves more props then you give him and that you may have a harsh view on the matter, thats all

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Originally Posted by Tito_BHB

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Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey

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Originally Posted by Tito_BHB

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Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey

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Originally Posted by Tito_BHB

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Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey

Hell brah,who do you think taught it to B-hop?

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Lol..Whenever someone says brah i always think of dog the bounty hunter :laugh:

If you guys had the same hair you might be lookalikes too! :laugh:

Lol..I forget his name ..I believe it was loui something.. But he worked on alot of the foundations of Bhop in Philly penetentiary..

Sorry for the spelling..You see in england..We call it prison ;) :P

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Naw that guy taught him just enough to lose his first fight
After that he was trained by Fraziers

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In Fact i believe his name was Bouie..Lol

Nahh man i cant believe that yo.. On Bhops behind the glory he gives so much credit to that dude..

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Trust me son,I know the Gym
Joe worked with him specifically

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Yo man thats a bit dispespectful

I never said joe didnt work with him and i never said you didnt know gym

I said his original trainer probably deserves more props then you give him and that you may have a harsh view on the matter, thats all

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And he gets them,hey training people to box in the pen,must be some scary stuff,good for him for doing it
But if youve ever seen early Bhop,its really obvious he's a Fraziers product
Every little thing they train there,is there to see

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Originally Posted by Tito_BHB

Lol.. Youve been playing too much Fight night! :P

But i will list a few..I dont know about ten..

1: James Toney
2:Floyd Mayweather
3:Archie Moore
4:Jersey joe
5:Bernard Hopkins

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Philly shell defense has to be MAyweather. Shoulder roll would be James TOney, but even in his prime he got hit more than Mayweather, and he wasn't as quick to counter. Mayweather is a better fighter than Toney(though toney is way up there for my p4p of the last two decades) and he is better defensively.

The first time I ever saw it and the best exponent of it was Burley. When he went into it you couldnt hit him with a handfull of rice

I considered what Frazier and Norton did to be that "cross armed" defense (I believe Archie Moore used it and refered to it as the "crab defense", which he taught Foreman later in his career), not the "Philly Shell". They used the left arm to defend the body and the right arm crossed over to protect the head. I thought the philly shell had the left arm to protect the body, the right hand up to pick off left hooks and the rolled shoulder to protect the chin?

Either way, I agree with Tito in that I think James Toney used it more effectively than anyone I've ever seen, including the old timers like Jersey Joe.

Anyway whether I'm right or wrong about that stuff, my top 3 is...

1. James Toney
2. Niccolino Locche
3. Floyd Mayweather jr

shoulder roll/philly shell for Foreman throughout that Holyfield fight.. worked pretty well for a while.

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Originally Posted by RP33

shoulder roll/philly shell for Foreman throughout that Holyfield fight.. worked pretty well for a while.

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Except after he caught a punch he couldn't counter it.....much like Lamon Brewster on Saturday.

It's a difficult skill to master but those who are good at it are really hard to catch clean....Evander Holyfield used it sometimes

Skill wise, I've never seen anyone make better use of it than Mayweather.

Gotta be Toney

I don't know about the best. But I sure know who was the worst at it Oscar de la Hoya while training with Maywether Sr.. He never quite got it did he.

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Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey

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Originally Posted by Tito_BHB

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Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey

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Originally Posted by Tito_BHB

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Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey

Hell brah,who do you think taught it to B-hop?

---

Lol..Whenever someone says brah i always think of dog the bounty hunter :laugh:

If you guys had the same hair you might be lookalikes too! :laugh:

Lol..I forget his name ..I believe it was loui something.. But he worked on alot of the foundations of Bhop in Philly penetentiary..

Sorry for the spelling..You see in england..We call it prison ;) :P

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Naw that guy taught him just enough to lose his first fight
After that he was trained by Fraziers

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In Fact i believe his name was Bouie..Lol

Nahh man i cant believe that yo.. On Bhops behind the glory he gives so much credit to that dude..

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Trust me son,I know the Gym
Joe worked with him specifically

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Yep like Beanflicker said in the previous post Moore, Norton, Frazier and Foreman(40yrold) utilized the Crab Defense(Cross Arm), you cant be a bob and weave fighter like Joe Frazier and incorporate the Philly Shell, I dont think even Michael Jackson and Ginuwine are coordinated enough to do that ;D

But I agree with most of everyone listing in no paticular order my modern Era fighters utilizing it the best would be

Bhop
Toney
Mayweather jr

No coincidence that all 3 have never been KO'D and are headed to Canastota ;)

I Don't get how people can have Toney ahead of Mayweather when he got hit more, and not just against the good fighters, but against the bad ones to. Mayweather is quite obviously better when he is one of the top 3 or 4 defensive fighters ever along with Whitaker, Pep, and a italian guy who's name eludes me at the moment.

No order


Floyd Mayweather

James Toney

Zab Judah (at times)...

didn't Sugar Ray Robinson use it too, that had him using it on Fight night 3 :laugh:

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Originally Posted by Taeth

I Don't get how people can have Toney ahead of Mayweather when he got hit more, and not just against the good fighters, but against the bad ones to. Mayweather is quite obviously better when he is one of the top 3 or 4 defensive fighters ever along with Whitaker, Pep, and a italian guy who's name eludes me at the moment.

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Willie Pep ;)

it wasn't willy pep, his last name sounded Italien
if I saw it I would recognize it.

no fighter has used the philly shell defense like James Toney and at the highest level and against the most opponents, truly the most effective boxing style however it isnt very crowd pleasing if the other guy is a boxer style , so being ppv is tough. watch fights of toney against holyfield and barkley where he schools em both with poetic efficiency, and at the same time he is busting em up pretty badly, the thudding from his punches that landed on holydfield was amazing. them fights sell.

but not everyone is a come forward type of fighter.

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Originally Posted by Lionheart Lacy

no fighter has used the philly shell defense like James Toney and at the highest level and against the most opponents, truly the most effective boxing style however it isnt very crowd pleasing if the other guy is a boxer style , so being ppv is tough. watch fights of toney against holyfield and barkley where he schools em both with poetic efficiency, and at the same time he is busting em up pretty badly, the thudding from his punches that landed on holydfield was amazing. them fights sell.

but not everyone is a come forward type of fighter.

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I'd say Mayweather and Bhop use it better than Toney. The reason Toney has looked so good in recent years is that's he moved up to the heavyweight division where most of them can't box for S***.

Watch his fights in the lower ranks and he sure didn't look so slick. Pound for pound and prime for prime Floyd and Hopkins would completely outbox Toney. Not saying Toney would get dominated in those fights, but he'd be looking to wear them out and knock them out in the late rounds a la Michael Nunn cos he sure as hell wouldn't beat either of them on points.

I'm not so sure about Hopkins outboxing Toney, and he sure looked slick against everyone I saw him against except Roy JOnes Jr. and Nunn.

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Originally Posted by Lionheart Lacy

no fighter has used the philly shell defense like James Toney and at the highest level and against the most opponents, truly the most effective boxing style however it isnt very crowd pleasing if the other guy is a boxer style , so being ppv is tough. watch fights of toney against holyfield and barkley where he schools em both with poetic efficiency, and at the same time he is busting em up pretty badly, the thudding from his punches that landed on holydfield was amazing. them fights sell.

but not everyone is a come forward type of fighter.

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How can you say that? Mayweather has used so much more effectively in defensive manner. Toney's style was good, but he couldn't adapt when a fighter game him troubles. Noway would he have p4p dodged those punches from Oscar Dela Hoya. Toney couldn't adapt to the speed of Nunn or Roy though he was countering against Nunn was effectively Nunn was still connecting a lot. Mayweather adapted to Judah much quicker, and Mayweather had the bigger obstical to overcome in that he was always used to being the fastest man in the ring by a long shot, and so he had to adapt in ways he never had before while Toney had faced faster fighters before in his life.

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Originally Posted by Taeth

it wasn't willy pep, his last name sounded Italien
if I saw it I would recognize it.

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Niccoliano Locche?? Willie Pastrano???

I didn't really know Hopkins uses it, I have seen alot of his fights and his hands are always up super high, or a high right hand and low left (but not across the body )

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Originally Posted by Lionheart Lacy

no fighter has used the philly shell defense like James Toney and at the highest level and against the most opponents, truly the most effective boxing style however it isnt very crowd pleasing if the other guy is a boxer style , so being ppv is tough. watch fights of toney against holyfield and barkley where he schools em both with poetic efficiency, and at the same time he is busting em up pretty badly, the thudding from his punches that landed on holydfield was amazing. them fights sell.

but not everyone is a come forward type of fighter.

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very well said cc

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Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey

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Originally Posted by Tito_BHB

Lol.. Youve been playing too much Fight night! :P

But i will list a few..I dont know about ten..

1: James Toney
2:Floyd Mayweather
3:Archie Moore
4:Jersey joe
5:Bernard Hopkins

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No Frazier????????

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Frazier has to be on this list...it's just criminal not to...:)

yeah because Frazier was so adept at avoiding Ali's flurries ::** or making FOreman miss.

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Originally Posted by Taeth

yeah because Frazier was so adept at avoiding Ali's flurries ::** or making FOreman miss.

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Or winning a gold medal,or winning the championship in the first place,or holding a version of the title for 5 years,despite only having a 73 inch reach
Man that guy was terrible ::**

Did I say he was terrible? I just said he didn't have a great defence. I think Frazier is top ten best heavyweights ever for sure, and top 20 p4p ever. I just don't think his defence first of all was real philly shell, and second that it was all that good. Just because he rolled punches doesn't make him philly shell. I would say his defense was similar to Tyson's in that he came forward bobing and weaving, but Tyson kept his hands up, and he had the quicker reflexes. Either way Frazier is a great fighter, but he wasn't philly shell fighter, and he wasn't defensively oriented boxer.

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Originally Posted by Taeth

Did I say he was terrible? I just said he didn't have a great defence. I think Frazier is top ten best heavyweights ever for sure, and top 20 p4p ever. I just don't think his defence first of all was real philly shell, and second that it was all that good. Just because he rolled punches doesn't make him philly shell. I would say his defense was similar to Tyson's in that he came forward bobing and weaving, but Tyson kept his hands up, and he had the quicker reflexes. Either way Frazier is a great fighter, but he wasn't philly shell fighter, and he wasn't defensively oriented boxer.

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Look at Frazier Zyglewicz,guy doesnt even hit Frazier

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by Lionheart Lacy

no fighter has used the philly shell defense like James Toney and at the highest level and against the most opponents, truly the most effective boxing style however it isnt very crowd pleasing if the other guy is a boxer style , so being ppv is tough. watch fights of toney against holyfield and barkley where he schools em both with poetic efficiency, and at the same time he is busting em up pretty badly, the thudding from his punches that landed on holydfield was amazing. them fights sell.

but not everyone is a come forward type of fighter.

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I'd say Mayweather and Bhop use it better than Toney. The reason Toney has looked so good in recent years is that's he moved up to the heavyweight division where most of them can't box for S***.

Watch his fights in the lower ranks and he sure didn't look so slick. Pound for pound and prime for prime Floyd and Hopkins would completely outbox Toney. Not saying Toney would get dominated in those fights, but he'd be looking to wear them out and knock them out in the late rounds a la Michael Nunn cos he sure as hell wouldn't beat either of them on points.

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haha ;D okay keyboard warrior

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Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey

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Originally Posted by Taeth

Did I say he was terrible? I just said he didn't have a great defence. I think Frazier is top ten best heavyweights ever for sure, and top 20 p4p ever. I just don't think his defence first of all was real philly shell, and second that it was all that good. Just because he rolled punches doesn't make him philly shell. I would say his defense was similar to Tyson's in that he came forward bobing and weaving, but Tyson kept his hands up, and he had the quicker reflexes. Either way Frazier is a great fighter, but he wasn't philly shell fighter, and he wasn't defensively oriented boxer.

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Look at Frazier Zyglewicz,guy doesnt even hit Frazier

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Zyg... who? I just checked him up, and he was ko'ed in the first round so how can you really gauge how good his defense is? Tyson had good defense, but his doesn't hold a candle to Hopkins, Toney's or Mayweather's. THough I don't think Hopkins has all that great of a defense. He has great footwork and comes in tricky enough that a fighter has to be cautious, but defensively I don't think he's on the level of Toney or Mayweather, and I hope WInky shows that.

i would like to remind you why the philly shell defense or the shoulder roll style was invented/made.

it was taught to some fighters in the philadelphia area by some brothers, i forgotten who. it was taught also to the mayweathers too. these guys wanted to use an effective style for when they get older and there legs arnt all that. where they could stand infront of the opponents and defend themselves effectively. this consists of head movement (upperbody movement), shoulder roll, hand postioning (to protect the bodyetc) and other certain moves. i have almost all of toneys fights and he does it the best. anyone who says b-hop uses the philly shell can go back to sleep, cos he dusnt.

i knew mayweather will win the dela hoya fight cos of this defense. difference between toney and mayweather in style is, mayweather runs alot, he only uses the defense when he has to, when he gets trapped on the ropes or when he gets tired and stands infront of opponents (he used it beautifully against baldomir). Toney uses this defense properly, no running or anything. and he has proved he is one of th best fighters that has ever lived, fought the most dangerous fighters out there in every division he fought in. this might sound crazy but it aint, i think toney would have given hell to joe louis. watch louis's fight against walcott, he was dropped twice with the shoulder roll counter, jus imagine what toney would do to louis, worse to what he did to holyfield imo.

also the main p4p fighters and future p4p fighters use this style.
toney, mayweather, guzman, paul williams just to name a few.