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he would have taken holyfield seriously and trained-could he have beaten holyfield? and if he beat holyfield he would have had to fight foreman and bowe. so he would have had 2beat holyfield, foreman and bowe to have owned his era. i think he could have beaten holyfield but not foreman and bowe. so i tyson would have remained undefeated for only a couple more fights after douglas anyway
He was on the decline regardless of if he lost to douglas or not. Holyfield would've beaten him anyway because he wasn't the same guy.Quote:
Originally Posted by undefeated
Agreed even the slow plodding Ruddock managed to wobble and give Tyson a hard fight a prime Holyfield with his crisp combos great stamina and great workrate would beat that version of Tyson im not sure about Foreman because he was bit too slow but who knows the slow Ruddock was able to catch Tyson clean so i dunno and prime Bowe would beat that version of Tyson aswell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Punisher136
Hard to say with hindsight it's easy but at the time (1992) I would never have picked Holy over Tyson , most probably would've been wrong :-X :D
If Tyson beats Douglas, then he would have lost to Holyfield. Really, nothing would have changed in the heavyweight division long-term, the only difference would have been that Holyfield would've won the title from Tyson, not Douglas.
I believe Tyson was on the road to destruction regardless, King(thats all I have to say about that), a failed marriage, parting with Rooney and letting King put his clowns in his corner all were part of the downfall.
Too many if's here. One of the biggest ?'s is would he still had fought H.Tillman & A. Stewart in his next 2 fights? The answer to that is=NO. So he may have fought Holy in the next fight & lost that one.
But for the sake of the thread we will just have to use who he did fight. IMO if he would've stood on the self destructive road that he was on after the Douglas fight (if he had won) then it was still only a matter of time to deal him that loss.
Ruddock may have gotten it done but if not,then it would've been Holy. Styles make fights & Holy had Mike's # IMO.
Douglas should have been counted out in round 8. 3 seconds elapsed before the ref started his 10 count. Even the count was slow. That screwup by the ref cost tyson the ko victory.
And if Richard Steele would've let Meldrick Taylor stand in that corner for the last 2 seconds of his fight with Chavez then he would've won. But he did'nt. He lost by TKO, Plain n simple.Quote:
Originally Posted by sexydarin
Eveyone on here could go on & on all day about fights that could've should've, would've. But it is what it is. Buster beat Mike in the first half of the fight. Got knocked down then got up & beat up on Mike some more.
Mike was into self destructive living. Alot of the decisions he was making in his personal life did not mix well with being a fighter. It would catch up to anyone & this is the night that it caught him.
Did you guys notice Tyson was talking really slow on espn tonight? Slurred? Or was he drunk?
Tyson was on the slide, he would have got through Holyfield in a thriller, (remember Holyfield used to weigh 205lb then) and probably won the re-match because people would have demanded it. If by some miracle he did beat Holyfied again, he would have beaten Foreman, but definitely lost to Bowe at that time, but if another miracle happened and he KOed Bowe early with a left hook he would have been beaten by Lewis. If somehow he was lucky and landed a freaky punch like McCall did then he would be the luckiest fighter alive and no-body has that much luck. Holyfied would have been there always as he is is still now and would have beaten him at his third attempt and in there fourth fight Tyson would have bitten his ear.
i just re-watched the fight and i'd say one second MAYBE MAYBE two seconds elapsed, and 2 is a huge stretch from when he was completely on the ground.. even still, Douglas was getting up anyway, even if you take a second away from the count.. I wish i was a little bit older when that fight happened cause it probably would've been one of the most exciting moments in boxing to witness.. The fashion that Douglas won in was just awesome leading to the climax KO.Quote:
Originally Posted by sexydarin
absolutely not.Quote:
Originally Posted by undefeated
Very Very far fetched.
I don't think the fading Tyson in early 90s would of beat prime Holyfield with them crisp combos and great workrate.Quote:
Originally Posted by undefeated
Tyson just would have been beaten in his next fight. Fighters of Tyson's dimensions fade quickly e.g Joe Frazier. Tyson was a fading force from 1990 onwards. I could not see Tyson doing anything diffrently after that. Holyfield was always the perfect style to beat Iron Mike. The three things which kept Tyson in the picture after the Douglas loss were his power, his baddest man on the planet tag and the controversy that always followed him allowed him to stay in the spotlight for far too long. Tyson was Great in his day (1985-1989) but after that he was never the same.
Tyson was done that night,nobody knew how much,but he was
He no longer had competent trainers,he had boob yes men.
He wasnt moving his shoulder in that entire fight,he was just coming straight in,even the commentators were saying it.
He never really bobbed his way in again after that,and he was too short for that
The many prostitutes he had in japan were bobbing there heads. :lickish:
The sad thing is to think it might have actually helped his legacy. Due to what holyfield went on to accomplish. Instead history has it that mike got ko'd with a vicious combo by a one hit wonder who ballooned up in weight and got wiped out by holyfield in 2 or 3 rounds before slipping into a diabetic coma and weighing 400 lbs.
If that didnt happen... we might all have had to wait for the next fight after mcbride for that to happen and people would be claiming it was prison that ruined mike....
I think he then fights Holyfield and gets KTFO
i think holyfield could beat any tyson as remember they sparred a round as ametures and the trainers had to split them as tyson was trying to throw weight around and holy fired back all guys before douglas had idea of jab and move and catch with upercut etc as he gets close(only guys in my opioun that could beat tyson or make good contest is prime ali and homles)
holy knew tyson best shot was the long distance step in shot stun the prowfuk hooks and uppercuts inside
so holyfield does not give distance for tyson to get the power and does not look hurt when as (like ali) which as we all know tyson noy strong if he thinks he is not dominating
holy only possible downfall as press wrote to smal can not take punch forget plan and fights if so there is pretty much tyson all the way unless he can go back to corner and talk sense to him and back to plan a
tyson was terrifed of foreman as cusdmato told him fighters like frazier maricano (small attackers where talior made for big man) as for bowe and lewis then one or 2 rounds of attacking from an unbeaton tyson and they would be out or at least there for taking hope someone will comment
as first review
he woulda lost to the next person he fought
I agree he was pretty done by then. If you remember he was dropped by G.Page sparring for that fight.
Ha was considering Dokes instead of Douglas, if he fought Dokes it would have just prolonged the inevitable.
For both of them reallyQuote:
Originally Posted by ghoster
I agree. Tyson's rep lasted long after his ability. I remember on this site and a prior one people saying that only a 50 percent Tyson could do this and that to Lewis, Williams and McBride and he couldn't even muster 50 percent. Joe Louis suffered the same effects of aging and what not, though in his case a World War interrupted his fighting, not a prison stretch. Louis may have met his Waterloo in 1942 or 43 in a rematch with Billy Conn if WWII hadn't come along. Louis, except the first loss to Schmeling, was a dynamo from 1935-41 but was running on fumes from 1947 on. It happens.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugar_Shaw
Have always thought Holyfield beats Tyson no matter when they meet.Be it the two previous scheduled meetings derailed by the Douglas KO or the rib injury or in 96'.Whatever the case I'm sure we would still hear how Tyson was not prime and falling off,etc etc.Stylistically he had his number,he would keep his head and not go swapping shot for shot,size compatible,speed and huge mental intangibles carry him over.
I agree with most that Evander just had his number at that time. A prime, focused Tyson was a good inside fighter and would throw fast combinations to the body in clinches, not just settle for the ref to break everytime.
If Tyson had beaten Douglas then fought Holyfield I really don't know who to pick. He didn't stick to boxing as much as he could have when he was drawn into a brawl back then and I don't know if he'd had been content to counter punch Mike like he did as he got older, he was a much smarter fighter when he fought Mike late in both their careers, a younger Holyfield was a lot more reckless and thats something that got him in trouble against Bowe.
I'll say if Tyson came in looking to throw his combos and looking to go to the body and head and use defense, yes he could beat Holyfield. But he hadn't been that fighter for a whole before Buster beat him, but he got through it because of his one punch power.
Tyson was already on the decline on that point and the only way he'd beat holyfield was if he came in fighting like he used to. But Don King killed that guys career, so as long as Don King is involved Tyson wouldn't have beaten Holyfield. Got rid of all his good trainers and people that would make him work his butt off, he'd be around promoting the fight and not training and with Don King while Holyfield trained like a demon from heck. So given the realistic circumstances it's hard to see Tyson winning, but it's not out of the question. It's just unlikely considering the way his career was going. Then again if Tyson had trained hard for douglas prior and beat him then I'd have a little more faith in him. If he got up for Douglas he'd do it maximumly for Holyfield.
Tyson would lose badly to Holyfield in his next fight after Douglass. Because he would still have the same bum trainer in his corner. For Fukks sake an water balloon was applied to his swelling eye instead of an endswell in the Douglass fight!
You think he would be ready for an 28 year old in his prime Holyfield with those idiots training him and in his corner?
i know i'm gonna get a lot of flack for this, but Tyson should of gotten the W in the Douglas fight anyways, when he dropped Douglas it was a slow count, but credit to Buster to tough it out the way he did, and no, i don't think he'd ever beat Holyfield, he has Tyson's number, and both Foreman and Bowe would probably beat him also, Foreman with his long arms and thudding jab, followed by that hammer he called his right hand, would of knocked him silly, and Bowe with his jab would basically blind Tyson and hurt him on the inside
I love it how people say he was on the decline. He was 23. Could it not be the fact he had a lot of impressive wins over guys who had padded records, coupled with the fact he was a very intimidating person with spectacular knockout power that made it look like he was indestructable?
if tyson had beat douglas it would of robbed us of the greatest upset in boxing history plus i think holyfield, bowe, lewis & possibly foreman would of beaten tyson anyway. I am not saying they would of beaten him in his prime but after the douglas defeat it was a whole different matter
The Tyson who lost to Douglas was prime, saying he wasn't is a way to excuse the fact that he lost. Hell, he battered out Bruce Seldon all the way in 96 & he was no worse than a lot of the guys he was KOing in the 80s. Tyson is underrated by some, but overrated by his excitement factor. Fact is even if he had beaten Douglas (he didn't & this was no Marlon B. Wright count, Tyson had a count just as slow as Douglas) than at least one of Holyfield, Foreman, Bowe or Lewis would have had him, in all likelihood probably 3 of them, possibly all 4. Tyson was a great fighter, don't get me wrong, but the fact was the guys he beat prior to meeting Douglas were nothing special apart from a faded Holmes, Berbick & Spinks (no complaints on the last 2). Even Douglas himself was nothing special, he just happened to have one of those nights that's only supposed to happen in cheesy Hollywood movies & was motivated to win the fight for his mother.
Of course the Tyson who lost to Douglass was prime there is no question about that, but there are boxing fans out there that do wonder what would have happened if Cus Damato had lived and Tyson fully reached his potential with the Catskill gang.
Tyson's skills deteriorated badly after he left his original trainer (Rooney) while he was still in his prime. I mean come on now the Aaron what's his name doesn't even have an endswell for his fighter's eye, ffs. But of course this is all Mike's fault for ditching his Catskill group and associating with Don King and bum trainers.
Good post.Have never bought the past his prime mantra.As it seems to precede Mike quite a bit.I think we got so used to seeing Tyson as a young snarling Dynamo separating men from their senses on a regular basis.The man just oozed "must see" and in no time became a household name and media crossover star.For some thats attributable as much to Tyson's devastation inside the ropes as it was his much publicized trials and tribulations.No fighter remains as peak and as effective as when we first came to know them and Tyson was said to be there from the very beginning within what,2,3 years?A prime does not just end whan a guy starts to look human and goes the distance,gets wobbled,etc,thats just when we see the whole package against stiffer fighters who don't just fall over.Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkin
I don't know about Seldon being a huge high point though lol.I drank the Kool-aid on Seldon when he himself came up but I think him crumbling like dry toast at the first threating shot took away from Mike just doing what your supposed to do.I mean even when Seldon won his belt he was balling & laying on the canvas needing his corner to tell him "get up man,act like a champion";D.Alright yeh,good win for Mike.I just wanted to get in dry toast when talking about a bad chin haa.
Boxing isn't all physical. Just because he's in his physical prime means nothing if he mentally isn't there anymore. He was on again off again retired and had no one around him to push him, he had Don King feeding him his own hype and he really didn't want to box anymore but its all he could do. Mike Tyson was in his physical prime, but in my opinion once you mentally aren't there anymore then it's over for you. You can't play boxing. if it was all physical prowess then Zab Judah would be undefeated and won the undisputed title at 140 and 147. But because he's as mentally fragile as a bull in a china shop he underachieved. And Tyson was an underachiever. And he got rid of the people around him that actually made him achieve and push himself, once he got rid of them, he slacked off in training and relied only on his power, and was getting dropped in sparring.Quote:
Originally Posted by ono
You can call that a prime Tyson if you want to but a prime has a lot more to do with then just when you're physically your best, because it means absolutely nothing if you're mentally in another place.
I saw it happen it was great,we all lined up for next victim to fall and what do you know.?.Quote:
Originally Posted by RP33
I understand what you are saying and generally i agree. Thing is, Tyson isn't the only fighter to have suffered from a weak mentality. His may be the most well documented but plenty of fighters out there probably go through just as much turmoil during their career without it effecting them so much. It's just that this isn't as well documented because not everyone is as well-known as Iron Mike. It's part and parcel of life.Quote:
Originally Posted by MajestyBoxing isn't all physical. Just because he's in his physical prime means nothing if he mentally isn't there anymore. He was on again off again retired and had no one around him to push him, he had Don King feeding him his own hype and he really didn't want to box anymore but its all he could do. Mike Tyson was in his physical prime, but in my opinion once you mentally aren't there anymore then it's over for you. You can't play boxing. if it was all physical prowess then Zab Judah would be undefeated and won the undisputed title at 140 and 147. But because he's as mentally fragile as a bull in a china shop he underachieved. And Tyson was an underachiever. And he got rid of the people around him that actually made him achieve and push himself, once he got rid of them, he slacked off in training and relied only on his power, and was getting dropped in sparring.Quote:
Originally Posted by ono
You can call that a prime Tyson if you want to but a prime has a lot more to do with then just when you're physically your best, because it means absolutely nothing if you're mentally in another place.
My point of him being 23 wasn't designed to claim that prime is down to age because as you rightly stated - it isn't. But how many top quality fighters did he beat before he was apparently on the decline? And at what stage in their careers we're these fighters at? I can think of a lot of good fighters but i can't think of any top quality prime fighters. Maybe you can make a case for Spinks before you move on to your good fighters like Bruno, Berbick, Tucker. The sort of fighters you would have expected him to beat.
Few talk about Naz's refusal to train properly/surrounding himself with wrong people/hiring and firing trainers when they talk about his loss to Barrera. Found out is the word often used. I'm not comparing Naz to Tyson and i'm certainly not comparing Barrera to Douglas but saying Tyson was on the decline really doesn't even tell half the story.
Naz was another great fighter that did not fulfill his potential just like Tyson. Both were mental midgets that seemed to lack the motivation and believed in too much of their own hype to continually keep improving, but they were both great under their original trainers that knew how to bring out the best in them. The other trainers seemingly didn't work.Quote:
Originally Posted by onoI understand what you are saying and generally i agree. Thing is, Tyson isn't the only fighter to have suffered from a weak mentality. His may be the most well documented but plenty of fighters out there probably go through just as much turmoil during their career without it effecting them so much. It's just that this isn't as well documented because not everyone is as well-known as Iron Mike. It's part and parcel of life.Quote:
Originally Posted by MajestyBoxing isn't all physical. Just because he's in his physical prime means nothing if he mentally isn't there anymore. He was on again off again retired and had no one around him to push him, he had Don King feeding him his own hype and he really didn't want to box anymore but its all he could do. Mike Tyson was in his physical prime, but in my opinion once you mentally aren't there anymore then it's over for you. You can't play boxing. if it was all physical prowess then Zab Judah would be undefeated and won the undisputed title at 140 and 147. But because he's as mentally fragile as a bull in a china shop he underachieved. And Tyson was an underachiever. And he got rid of the people around him that actually made him achieve and push himself, once he got rid of them, he slacked off in training and relied only on his power, and was getting dropped in sparring.Quote:
Originally Posted by ono
You can call that a prime Tyson if you want to but a prime has a lot more to do with then just when you're physically your best, because it means absolutely nothing if you're mentally in another place.
My point of him being 23 wasn't designed to claim that prime is down to age because as you rightly stated - it isn't. But how many top quality fighters did he beat before he was apparently on the decline? And at what stage in their careers we're these fighters at? I can think of a lot of good fighters but i can't think of any top quality prime fighters. Maybe you can make a case for Spinks before you move on to your good fighters like Bruno, Berbick, Tucker. The sort of fighters you would have expected him to beat.
Few talk about Naz's refusal to train properly/surrounding himself with wrong people/hiring and firing trainers when they talk about his loss to Barrera. Found out is the word often used. I'm not comparing Naz to Tyson and i'm certainly not comparing Barrera to Douglas but saying Tyson was on the decline really doesn't even tell half the story.
I just got done watching the Larry Merchant interview for the interview on Tyson and Douglass and Merchant was complaining about Tyson's trainers and this quote sums it all up, "When you have Secretariat, you don't just let any Jockey ride him." Tyson's new trainer didn't even have a endswell for his eye but was using water balloons ffs! The right trainer and right chemistry is also very important. Just take the Pacquiao-Roach relationship, would Pacquiao have accomplished all he had in his career if he still stuck with his Filipino trainers where he got knocked out by bums?
Now, I'm not saying guys like Naz and Tyson would be undefeated and invincible, but their skills level were noticeably on the decline before their first losses when they changed trainers. You can tell something just wasn't right.
Tyson was crap against Douglas, no head movement and lack of combo's. His team were a joke and the whole contest was a disaster for him. He wanted a rematch because he knew he took Douglas too lightly.