How do you rank the welters now?

Here's the last Ring rankings, (as of 7/9/07 so it doesn't include last weekends fights)

C FLOYD MAYWEATHER 38-0 (24)
1 MIGUEL COTTO 30-0 (25)
2 ANTONIO MARGARITO 34-4 (24)
3 SHANE MOSLEY 44-4 (37)
4 CARLOS BALDOMIR 43-10-6 (13)
5 ZAB JUDAH 34-5 (25)
6 LUIS COLLAZO 27-3 (13)
7 KERMIT CINTRON 27-1 (25)
8 JOSHUA CLOTTEY 31-2 (19)
9 OKTAY URKAL 38-4 (12)
10 PAUL WILLIAMS 32-0 (24)


I have
C PBF
1 Cotto
2 Williams
3 Mosley
4 Cintron
5 Margarito
6 Baldomir
7 Judah
8 Clottey
9 Collazo
10 Urkal

How about you??

only use the guys on the list............
10

Your order looks pretty good to me. But why only use those on the list? Surely you top ten Welters should include them all. Urkal wouldn't be there IMO.

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Originally Posted by bzkfn

Your order looks pretty good to me. But why only use those on the list? Surely you top ten Welters should include them all. Urkal wouldn't be there IMO.

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I wanted to limit it to only the guys on the list so we could get closer to consensus.

I can agree with that...maybe even having Williams and Cotto tied at #1....Mosley hasn't fought lately and he needs to if for any other reason than just to keep the rust off

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Originally Posted by Lyle

I can agree with that...maybe even having Williams and Cotto tied at #1....Mosley hasn't fought lately and he needs to if for any other reason than just to keep the rust off

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For now I have Cotto ahead because he has successfully defended the title.

Sheep I like the list, but we need to bump Clottey up a few rungs, I would put him above Baldomir ;)

I think Kermit Cintron could be the dark horse of the Welters Floyd is number 1 but until he has a fight date set up he's retired.

Cotto has to be #1. Period! 2 weight World Champion who has taken down 2 off the list. He's the man.

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Originally Posted by JT Rock

Sheep I like the list, but we need to bump Clottey up a few rungs, I would put him above Baldomir ;)

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Clottey hasn't done enough to be rated over Baldomir and Judah IMO
his last fight was a 10-rounder over a lightweight fighter.

There has been a point where Baldomir AND Judah
were the Unified welterweight champs......

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Originally Posted by killersheep

Here's the last Ring rankings, (as of 7/9/07 so it doesn't include last weekends fights)

C FLOYD MAYWEATHER 38-0 (24)
1 MIGUEL COTTO 30-0 (25)
2 ANTONIO MARGARITO 34-4 (24)
3 SHANE MOSLEY 44-4 (37)
4 CARLOS BALDOMIR 43-10-6 (13)
5 ZAB JUDAH 34-5 (25)
6 LUIS COLLAZO 27-3 (13)
7 KERMIT CINTRON 27-1 (25)
8 JOSHUA CLOTTEY 31-2 (19)
9 OKTAY URKAL 38-4 (12)
10 PAUL WILLIAMS 32-0 (24)


I have
C PBF
1 Cotto
2 Williams
3 Mosley
4 Cintron
5 Margarito
6 Baldomir
7 Judah
8 Clottey
9 Collazo
10 Urkal

How about you??

only use the guys on the list............
10

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I like the list. Mine would have a few changes.

I would put Margarito over Cintron. Don't matter if Cintron came off a great KO win and Margarito lost his title. Margarito overwelmed Cintron in theri fight and IMO Cintron has not erased that as he said after the fight.

I would probably put Collazo over Clottey given that he held the title and gave tough fights to Hatton and, to a lesser degree, Mosley.

Finally there has got to be somebody by now that would remove Urkal from that 10th spot. I expect the next update will not have him.

C PBF
1 Cotto
2 Williams
3 Mosley
4 Margarito
5 Cintron
6 Baldomir
7 Judah
8 Collazo
9 Clottey
10 Urkal

C PBF
1 Cotto
2 Mosley
3 Williams
4 Margarito
5 Cintron
6 Baldomir
7 Judah
8 Clottey
9 Collazo
10 Urkal

I think at this point you could put Berto at 10 though. Still a prospect to be sure, but there's no way he wouldn't beat Urkal.

I don't understand how Zab is 0-3-1 NC in his last 4 fights and is still ranked in the top 10. :(
(I guess it's just me who sees it this way?)

C: PBF
Cotto
Baldomir
Williams
SSM
Margarito
Cintron
Clottey
Collazo
Urkal
Gomez - Breaks in the top 10 with his win over Gatti

Possibly Quintana could be in place of Urkal

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CutMeMick

I don't understand how Zab is 0-3-1 NC in his last 4 fights and is still ranked in the top 10. :(
(I guess it's just me who sees it this way?)

C: PBF
Cotto
Baldomir
Williams
SSM
Margarito
Cintron
Clottey
Collazo
Urkal
Gomez - Breaks in the top 10 with his win over Gatti

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Well Judah stays up on the list I think because all 3 of those losses were to people that were ranked
higher than him (Champ- PBF, #1 Cotto and #4 Baldomir) I have him at #7 on my list. As I think he needs
to get dethroned by a lower ranked opponent to completely move off.

And for the sake of trying to come to consensus I wanted to use only the fighters on the ring list.
Not that all necessarily will still be there on the next time Ring updates, but so we had a finite list.
It is important not to forget that Judah WAS the unified Welter weight champ, for a year, it's the same
reason Baldomir is still on there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by shza

C PBF
1 Cotto
2 Mosley
3 Williams
4 Margarito
5 Cintron
6 Baldomir
7 Judah
8 Clottey
9 Collazo
10 Urkal

I think at this point you could put Berto at 10 though. Still a prospect to be sure, but there's no way he wouldn't beat Urkal.

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Actually it wouldn't suprise me if Urkal did beat Berto. Berto looked shat last time out against a nobody and Urkal is a tough and resiliant fighter.

Before he faced Quintana nobody would have ever thought that Julio would almost get beat by Cosme Riveria but now I have doubts about Julio beating any slick boxer in the top 10.

Berto may prove to be equally clueless when facing someone who can take his shots and outbox him.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CutMeMick

I don't understand how Zab is 0-3-1 NC in his last 4 fights and is still ranked in the top 10. :(
(I guess it's just me who sees it this way?)

C: PBF
Cotto
Baldomir
Williams
SSM
Margarito
Cintron
Clottey
Collazo
Urkal
Gomez - Breaks in the top 10 with his win over Gatti

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Judah is still a dangerous fighter, I can see why you think his recent performances could drop him out, but when you take him off the 10th spot in place of Gomez, it really just proves that he's still there because theres noone better. Gomez would not beat anyone in the top 10 including Judah, save for possibly Urkal... I mean do you really feel that Judah wouldn't have massacred Gatti if he fought him?? a win over todays Gatti at 147 doesn't mean much.

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Originally Posted by p4pking

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CutMeMick

I don't understand how Zab is 0-3-1 NC in his last 4 fights and is still ranked in the top 10. :(
(I guess it's just me who sees it this way?)

C: PBF
Cotto
Baldomir
Williams
SSM
Margarito
Cintron
Clottey
Collazo
Urkal
Gomez - Breaks in the top 10 with his win over Gatti

---

Judah is still a dangerous fighter, I can see why you think his recent performances could drop him out, but when you take him off the 10th spot in place of Gomez, it really just proves that he's still there because theres noone better. Gomez would not beat anyone in the top 10 including Judah, save for possibly Urkal... I mean do you really feel that Judah wouldn't have massacred Gatti if he fought him?? a win over todays Gatti at 147 doesn't mean much.

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Agreed. I don't know how beating a completely shot Gatti (who was NEVER a legit top 10 WELTER anyway--and was never a top 5 Jr. Welter either, even in his absolute prime) could possibly make someone a top 10 WW.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by killersheep

I have
C PBF
1 Cotto
2 Williams
3 Mosley
4 Cintron
5 Margarito
6 Baldomir
7 Judah
8 Clottey
9 Collazo
10 Urkal

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C Floyd Mayweather
1. Miguel Cotto
2. Paul Williams
3. Antonio Margarito
4. Kermit Cintron
5. Shane Mosley
6. Joshua Clottey
7. Carlos Baldomir
8. Luis Collazo
9. Zab Judah
10. Oktay Urkal

I agree with you Mick about Gomez. I'd have replaced Urkal instead of Judah based on Judah hurting Cotto just a bit and Urkal just...

even as I type this I doubt my own words LOL


Yeah, Get rid of Judah and keep Urkal. Urkal took a beating and had to be pulled from the Cotto fight. Judah got flattened.

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

Possibly Quintana could be in place of Urkal

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I put Urkal cause he pushed Cotto further and gave somewhat a better part for himself against Cotto. Maybe it's just my opinion....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by killersheep

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CutMeMick

I don't understand how Zab is 0-3-1 NC in his last 4 fights and is still ranked in the top 10. :(
(I guess it's just me who sees it this way?)

C: PBF
Cotto
Baldomir
Williams
SSM
Margarito
Cintron
Clottey
Collazo
Urkal
Gomez - Breaks in the top 10 with his win over Gatti

---

Well Judah stays up on the list I think because all 3 of those losses were to people that were ranked
higher than him (Champ- PBF, #1 Cotto and #4 Baldomir) I have him at #7 on my list. As I think he needs
to get dethroned by a lower ranked opponent to completely move off.

And for the sake of trying to come to consensus I wanted to use only the fighters on the ring list.
Not that all necessarily will still be there on the next time Ring updates, but so we had a finite list.
It is important not to forget that Judah WAS the unified Welter weight champ, for a year, it's the same
reason Baldomir is still on there.

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Who was Baldomir PRIOR to the Zab fight?
Just a stepping stone and he beat Zab right there with that loss Zab dropped big on my list. Add the other 2 loses and the NC and Peace out! hes off my list.
And I understand about the names from that list. :)
I missed that when I read your post.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by p4pking

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CutMeMick

I don't understand how Zab is 0-3-1 NC in his last 4 fights and is still ranked in the top 10. :(
(I guess it's just me who sees it this way?)

C: PBF
Cotto
Baldomir
Williams
SSM
Margarito
Cintron
Clottey
Collazo
Urkal
Gomez - Breaks in the top 10 with his win over Gatti

---

Judah is still a dangerous fighter, I can see why you think his recent performances could drop him out, but when you take him off the 10th spot in place of Gomez, it really just proves that he's still there because theres noone better. Gomez would not beat anyone in the top 10 including Judah, save for possibly Urkal... I mean do you really feel that Judah wouldn't have massacred Gatti if he fought him?? a win over todays Gatti at 147 doesn't mean much.

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Well my list is based on several things not who can beat who or whos more dangerous then who? For me the simple fact that Zabs last 4 fights have not been a plus just flat out drops him. It's just the way I see it.
Gomez just beat Gatti and yes I understand everything on Gatti (I predicted a rd. 9 TKO win for Gomez) but he is a former Champ. he had the track record and he was still ranked at WW so being that Gomez beat him he moves up to #10.
You know as honest as I can be with you I'm not sure what Zab really can and can't do today or tommorrow. But one things for sure I know what hes done in his last performances and thats what matters at least on my list.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BoxingGorilla

I agree with you Mick about Gomez. I'd have replaced Urkal instead of Judah based on Judah hurting Cotto just a bit and Urkal just...

even as I type this I doubt my own words LOL


Yeah, Get rid of Judah and keep Urkal. Urkal took a beating and had to be pulled from the Cotto fight. Judah got flattened.

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Well BG, it is your list so you make of it as you feel it's best. ;)

Gomez??? top 10??? Marlarky!!!!! ;D

C FLOYD MAYWEATHER 38-0 (24)
1 MIGUEL COTTO 30-0 (25)
2 SHANE MOSLEY 44-4 (37)
3 PAUL WILLIAMS 32-0 (24)
4 ANTONIO MARGARITO 34-4 (24)
5 JOSHUA CLOTTEY 31-2 (19)
6 KERMIT CINTRON 27-1 (25)
7 CARLOS BALDOMIR 43-10-6 (13)
8 ZAB JUDAH 34-5 (25)
9 OKTAY URKAL 38-4 (12)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CutMeMick

I don't understand how Zab is 0-3-1 NC in his last 4 fights and is still ranked in the top 10. :(

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Let's throw out the no-contest... he was about 2 seconds from KO-ing that guy. That was just bad luck.

His 3 losses are to Mayweather, Cotto, and Baldomir. He was very competitive in the losses to Mayweather and Cotto. The Baldomir loss was bad, no getting around that one.

But what means more, beating a bunch of nobodies, or losing in competitive fights to two of the best fighters in the world? I know Zab brings a lot of criticism on himself by the way he acts, but there are not 10 welterweights in the world that I would pick to beat him. That's why he's still a Top 10 welterweight.

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Originally Posted by CutMeMick

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

Possibly Quintana could be in place of Urkal

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I put Urkal cause he pushed Cotto further and gave somewhat a better part for himself against Cotto. Maybe it's just my opinion....

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I hear you but Quintana did beat the prodigy and I don't think all fighters career's can be based just on how they did against Cotto.

Urkal hasn't done anything for a while

Quote:

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Originally Posted by killersheep

Here's the last Ring rankings, (as of 7/9/07 so it doesn't include last weekends fights)

C FLOYD MAYWEATHER 38-0 (24)
1 MIGUEL COTTO 30-0 (25)
2 ANTONIO MARGARITO 34-4 (24)
3 SHANE MOSLEY 44-4 (37)
4 CARLOS BALDOMIR 43-10-6 (13)
5 ZAB JUDAH 34-5 (25)
6 LUIS COLLAZO 27-3 (13)
7 KERMIT CINTRON 27-1 (25)
8 JOSHUA CLOTTEY 31-2 (19)
9 OKTAY URKAL 38-4 (12)
10 PAUL WILLIAMS 32-0 (24)

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c. floyd mayweather
1. miguel cotto
2. shane mosely
3. paul williams
4. carlos baldomir
5. zab judah
6. kermit cintron
7. antonio margarito
8. joshua clottey
9. luis collazo
10. oktay urkal


thats about right...............

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Originally Posted by SweetPea

Let's throw out the no-contest... he was about 2 seconds from KO-ing that guy. That was just bad luck.

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But that's just the case if you start throwing things out or you start cutting ends for one person then you gotta cut them for the rest.
Fact of the matter is it's a NC and thats that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SweetPea

His 3 losses are to Mayweather, Cotto, and Baldomir. He was very competitive in the losses to Mayweather and Cotto. The Baldomir loss was bad, no getting around that one.

But what means more, beating a bunch of nobodies, or losing in competitive fights to two of the best fighters in the world? I know Zab brings a lot of criticism on himself by the way he acts, but there are not 10 welterweights in the world that I would pick to beat him. That's why he's still a Top 10 welterweight.

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But see that's just it, he lost those fights. I understand how he fought I saw the fights and well he did what he had to do to try and win. He lost and that's that. Again I just don't take performances I'm also looking at opposition and results.

I got a question for the people that have Zab rated in the top 10, if he were to loose let's say to Williams next would he still be top 10 cause he faced a champ eventho he lost? Also how many more loses is he allowed until he drops out of the top 10 WW?
I don't think I've ever seen a fighter whos last fights had that end result rated in the top 10 of a div.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CutMeMick

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SweetPea

Let's throw out the no-contest... he was about 2 seconds from KO-ing that guy. That was just bad luck.

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But that's just the case if you start throwing things out or you start cutting ends for one person then you gotta cut them for the rest.
Fact of the matter is it's a NC and thats that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SweetPea

His 3 losses are to Mayweather, Cotto, and Baldomir. He was very competitive in the losses to Mayweather and Cotto. The Baldomir loss was bad, no getting around that one.

But what means more, beating a bunch of nobodies, or losing in competitive fights to two of the best fighters in the world? I know Zab brings a lot of criticism on himself by the way he acts, but there are not 10 welterweights in the world that I would pick to beat him. That's why he's still a Top 10 welterweight.

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But see that's just it, he lost those fights. I understand how he fought I saw the fights and well he did what he had to do to try and win. He lost and that's that. Again I just don't take performances I'm also looking at opposition and results.

I got a question for the people that have Zab rated in the top 10, if he were to loose let's say to Williams next would he still be top 10 cause he faced a champ eventho he lost? Also how many more loses is he allowed until he drops out of the top 10 WW?
I don't think I've ever seen a fighter whos last fights had that end result rated in the top 10 of a div.

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For me it's simple, there are not 10 welterweights in the world who I would pick to beat Zab Judah. I would not pick either Urkal or Gomez to beat Zab Judah.
All props to Gomez for beating the corpse of Arturo Gatti, but I think Zab destroys Gatti too, and probably quicker.

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Originally Posted by SweetPea

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CutMeMick

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SweetPea

Let's throw out the no-contest... he was about 2 seconds from KO-ing that guy. That was just bad luck.

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But that's just the case if you start throwing things out or you start cutting ends for one person then you gotta cut them for the rest.
Fact of the matter is it's a NC and thats that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SweetPea

His 3 losses are to Mayweather, Cotto, and Baldomir. He was very competitive in the losses to Mayweather and Cotto. The Baldomir loss was bad, no getting around that one.

But what means more, beating a bunch of nobodies, or losing in competitive fights to two of the best fighters in the world? I know Zab brings a lot of criticism on himself by the way he acts, but there are not 10 welterweights in the world that I would pick to beat him. That's why he's still a Top 10 welterweight.

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But see that's just it, he lost those fights. I understand how he fought I saw the fights and well he did what he had to do to try and win. He lost and that's that. Again I just don't take performances I'm also looking at opposition and results.

I got a question for the people that have Zab rated in the top 10, if he were to loose let's say to Williams next would he still be top 10 cause he faced a champ eventho he lost? Also how many more loses is he allowed until he drops out of the top 10 WW?
I don't think I've ever seen a fighter whos last fights had that end result rated in the top 10 of a div.

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For me it's simple, there are not 10 welterweights in the world who I would pick to beat Zab Judah. I would not pick either Urkal or Gomez to beat Zab Judah.
All props to Gomez for beating the corpse of Arturo Gatti, but I think Zab destroys Gatti too, and probably quicker.

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Fair enough I see how your rating them, I just see it differently.
I'd give Gomez a really good chance at beating Zab.
I really woould, I don't care what Zabs done to me hes finished I know I'm the only person who sees it this way. I said it a year ago 'Zab Judah the boxer will no longer exsist within a year' well hes very close to disappering IMO.
1 More loss and hes 100% done, I know people still wanna see him fight and I understand why. His talent (when he decided to use it) but I just think hes one of those wasted talent fighters like Ayala Jr, J.L. Lopez, Ibeabuchi and Riddick.
Lots of potential but just didn't keep it together for 1 reason or another.

I really think there are alot more players out there shooting for that 10 spot. Just because Gomez had a good night against a fighter who should have never stepped into that ring in the first place, much less at 147, does not make him the top candidate.

Just to name a few, and I know I'm gonna be missing some, Carlos Quintana, Joel Julio, Andre Berto, JCCJr, Frederic Klose..... Actually now that I look at this list. Just leave it as it is with Urkal and Judah untill one of these little boys graduate.

Gomez will break the top 10 before those other guys, right or wrong. Manfredo did it. Mora did it. Gomez will do it.