Will Ray Robbinson always be considered the greatest fighter P4P?

I have seen some clips of Robbinson's fights. He always looks impressive. He had power and speed. And I also heard that there are no videos of any fight were he was considered at his prime, which is a real shame but also points out that he was even better than what we now see. His 94 wins in a row is a truly amazing feat and his record speaks greatness.

With that said, is it not possible that there have been better fighters after or even before him. Could it be that the level of competition at the time was not exactly the highest quality. Could it be that fighters today have better training methods and improved skills. Could the general public be saying "he's the best" more out of habit than of any real boxing knowledge.

If any of you know anything about rock and roll you would know that since the 70s, "Starway to Heaven" has been considered, without a doubt, the greatest rock song ever made. It is in the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame along with their great band also considered the greatest Rock band ever. But do we honestly believe that out of the millions of songs composed since then there hasn't been a better song made. I can think of four or five that I like more. But nobody would ever consider replacing that #1 spot.

I, sometimes, believe it is the same way with Robbinson. Surely there have been fighters that have performed well enough to be placed at that #1 spot. Lets take the time and name a few:

Mohamed Ali showed great skill and dominated his division at his time. His level of competition is unquestionably one of the best ever as it is considered a golden age of the HW division. One can only imagine what he could have accomplished if he had not been robbed 3 years of his prime and if he had stepped into the ring in that first fight with Frazier a fully active and well condition fighter.

Sugar Ray Leonard who took on Robbinson's nick name and represented it well. He too faced the highest quality of opposition as he was a member of the so called Fav 4 and was the only one of the group to hold a victory over each of the other members. He also clearly beat another hall of famer in Wilfredo Benitez. He had speed, power, a good chin and knew how to give the crowed what they wanted with his flashy, unforgettable combinations. He, like Ali, fought till he was way passed his prime and his record is less great than it should have been.

Roy Jones Jr is a fighter that possessed such great reflex and ability that he managed to go through almost his entire career without truly possesing much boxing technique but he still managed to dominate pretty much anyone that stepped in the ring against him on shier ability alone. Many believe that during his rise through the Supermiddle weight division he was unbeatable. However he suffered from what many believe to be a lack of quality opposition and his two knockout losses dimmed his brilliance in the eyes of some fans.

Floyd Maywether Jr is a fighter that has truly mastered what is the skill of boxing. His style seems at times flawless and to this day none have managed to put a dent on his perfect reccord. He, like Jones, suffers from a belief that he has not face high quality opposition and his achievements of multidivision titles has been somewhat diminished as his rise happend just at a time when no true champion stood on his way. Even his latest win against Oscar has been tainted with a split decision and claims that he beat an old Oscar.

I'm certain there have been others who deserve a claim on that #1 status but might not have been as popular or had enough big wins to be considered. The point is, maybe it is time for us to start looking into the possibility that there might be better fighters out there. I, for one, am still looking. But I also recognize that that top spot is by no means reserved or taken. It is open to anyone who shows he deserves it.

CC for this little presentation, and i have to say i am in total agreement with ur point of view. Along with the factors you have mentioned we have got to consider the "technology factor" Boxing has changed, the rules have been altered, training has advanced and evolved. Would robinson adapt to the new system and still rule?

In my exposure to SRR i have witnessed him pulling out fights on a number of occasions in the championship rounds of his fights. However, in modern boxing the rounds considered the championship rounds by Robinson, namely 13, 14, 15 are missing would 12 rounders suit Sugar?

Modern fights are a lot less regular, allowing more time for recuperation and preparation between fights. Fighters of old may have suffered disadvantages of not healing sufficiently between fights and not training correctly as a result. Was sugar ray ever in the ring with a fighter of the condition of Hagler/Jones/mayweather etc.? (I also note to myself that these conditions could favour robinson)

Today fights are much more strictly regualted by referees/officials, If fights such as Basilio/La Motta/Fulmer v Robinson occured today would Sugar have been stopped in a situation he pulled through in history?

Still can't take anything away from sugar, he was a ATG, but he was not God nor was he invincible,
SRR V Julian Jackson?

Hmm, only one reply. I guess no one is ready to debate the possibility of removing Robbinson from his throne?

Yes and the reason why is Ray Robinson was 1 in a million fighters today are too protected and will never achieve what Ray Robinson Willie Pep or Henry Armstrong done plus i don't think alot of the newer fighters get the credit they deserve and the older fighters will always be rated higher thats just the way it goes but i doubt any fighter will achieve anything even close to Robinson.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING

Yes and the reason why is Ray Robinson was 1 in a million fighters today are too protected and will never achieve what Ray Robinson Willie Pep or Henry Armstrong done plus i don't think alot of the newer fighters get the credit they deserve and the older fighters will always be rated higher thats just the way it goes but i doubt any fighter will achieve anything even close to Robinson.

---

sounds about right. Member that if robinson had todays training mehtods etc it would of made him a even better fighter considering he probably had the most natural talent of any boxer in history.

Probably. Guys like Armstrong, Ali, Leonard, Jones & Mayweather have done great things but none have surpassed Robinson. For a new guy to take over they would have to do truly exception things!!!

Fight more than twice a year, three times a year minimum. Exceptional fights with many champions and world class athletes and boxers young and old. And to keep it up for over a decade.

I don't think it will happen. Not in this age. The fight game is different now.

If Floyd were to beat Mosely, Cotto, Hatton, Williams and then step up to win a title at 160 lbs all the time remaining undefeated he might get close?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gyrokai

Fight more than twice a year, three times a year minimum. Exceptional fights with many champions and world class athletes and boxers young and old. And to keep it up for over a decade.

I don't think it will happen. Not in this age. The fight game is different now.

---

True but as fans we can only hope

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bilbo

If Floyd were to beat Mosely, Cotto, Hatton, Williams and then step up to win a title at 160 lbs all the time remaining undefeated he might get close?

---

Without a loss it doesn't matter what you seem to do in history's eyes, there has to be that one guy that pushed you to the limit and you lose and come back and win decisively. Castillo didn't push Floyd to his limits IMO.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Galaxy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gyrokai

Fight more than twice a year, three times a year minimum. Exceptional fights with many champions and world class athletes and boxers young and old. And to keep it up for over a decade.

I don't think it will happen. Not in this age. The fight game is different now.

---

True but as fans we can only hope

---

Yeah, cc you and the thead maker Rookie. Yeah, I hope too.

These days, a fighter loses and it's all over, he fights so less that he'll have to wait a year or so to get another matchup with a contender, I'm not talking champ. It will take about another year to get a fight with a contender.

Some guys have all this energy, I KNOW they can do it. But the norm is that they must fight twice a year once they are elite.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gyrokai

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Galaxy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gyrokai

Fight more than twice a year, three times a year minimum. Exceptional fights with many champions and world class athletes and boxers young and old. And to keep it up for over a decade.

I don't think it will happen. Not in this age. The fight game is different now.

---

True but as fans we can only hope

---

Yeah, cc you and the thead maker Rookie. Yeah, I hope too.

These days, a fighter loses and it's all over, he fights so less that he'll have to wait a year or so to get another matchup with a contender, I'm not talking champ. It will take about another year to get a fight with a contender.

Some guys have all this energy, I KNOW they can do it. But the norm is that they must fight twice a year once they are elite.

---

cc back bro, I agree I don't know whats up with only fighting a couple times a year. If fighters are content to only fight a couple of times then each fight must be against an elite opponent. A lose is not the end... get in the gym & come back against another top guy!

Personally I still consider Butterbean the best P4P fighter that ever lived. Who's with me?

Skelton vs. Butterbean is money!

had roy retired after the first tarver fight he'd be number one....but nah no one will pass him (SRR)

"And I also heard that there are no videos of any fight were he was considered at his prime"

Is this really true? I have looked before (with no success) but is this true???

I think it is in boxing fans genes to say SRR was the greatest P4P and his record is excellent. The closest modern fighter we could say is Roy Jones. SRR was greatest at Welterweight, but not at the higher weights and I feel Roy would have beaten him at Middleweight and above, but P4P he had it all and he was one fighter who could take Julian Jacksons punches! McCallum did it so would have SRR.

Obviously no one will ever have a record like that with over 200 fights. That was just a different time and that is not gonna happend again. But I don't think you need to fight 200+ fights to prove you are better than SRR. I agree with Gyrokai. If a fighter can fight at least every 4 months dominate his division, move up fight every champion within range of his weight, beat them and remain fighting nothing but elite fighters for close to a decade then he could match SRR. But he would have to beat everybody he faced, even if he does not remain undefeated as long as he avenged his losses.

Now if somebody did that and remain undefeated then he would top SRR.

I don't think it is impossible. Take a guy like Oscar. If he had won each of his fights and been more convincing in those close ones then he would have a case for challenging SRR with all those great names on his record. Another example is Trinidad. He dominated the WW division and wanted to move up all the way to LH and fight Jones Jr. If he had actually gotten passed Hopkins and gone on to challenge Jones and beat him, a man who was considered unbeatable at the time, I think he would rival Ray Robinson. I even remember Merchant comparing Tito's punching to Ray Robbinson after he beat Joppy.

But the fact remains that nither of them was as good a Ray, nither of them made it that far. But if they had they would deserve to be compared to the great Sugar Ray Robbinson.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bilbo

If Floyd were to beat Mosely, Cotto, Hatton, Williams and then step up to win a title at 160 lbs all the time remaining undefeated he might get close?

---

If he did this, I would give him the #1 spot of all time personally. I think FLoyd is very close to being the #1 P4P already.

SRR is an ATG no doubt, but I think guys like Mayweather, Jones, and particularily Pernell Whitaker were more skillful.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The Rookie Fan

I have seen some clips of Robbinson's fights. He always looks impressive. He had power and speed. And I also heard that there are no videos of any fight were he was considered at his prime, which is a real shame but also points out that he was even better than what we now see. His 94 wins in a row is a truly amazing feat and his record speaks greatness.

With that said, is it not possible that there have been better fighters after or even before him. Could it be that the level of competition at the time was not exactly the highest quality. Could it be that fighters today have better training methods and improved skills. Could the general public be saying "he's the best" more out of habit than of any real boxing knowledge.

If any of you know anything about rock and roll you would know that since the 70s, "Starway to Heaven" has been considered, without a doubt, the greatest rock song ever made. It is in the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame along with their great band also considered the greatest Rock band ever. But do we honestly believe that out of the millions of songs composed since then there hasn't been a better song made. I can think of four or five that I like more. But nobody would ever consider replacing that #1 spot.

I, sometimes, believe it is the same way with Robbinson. Surely there have been fighters that have performed well enough to be placed at that #1 spot. Lets take the time and name a few:

Mohamed Ali showed great skill and dominated his division at his time. His level of competition is unquestionably one of the best ever as it is considered a golden age of the HW division. One can only imagine what he could have accomplished if he had not been robbed 3 years of his prime and if he had stepped into the ring in that first fight with Frazier a fully active and well condition fighter.

Sugar Ray Leonard who took on Robbinson's nick name and represented it well. He too faced the highest quality of opposition as he was a member of the so called Fav 4 and was the only one of the group to hold a victory over each of the other members. He also clearly beat another hall of famer in Wilfredo Benitez. He had speed, power, a good chin and knew how to give the crowed what they wanted with his flashy, unforgettable combinations. He, like Ali, fought till he was way passed his prime and his record is less great than it should have been.

Roy Jones Jr is a fighter that possessed such great reflex and ability that he managed to go through almost his entire career without truly possesing much boxing technique but he still managed to dominate pretty much anyone that stepped in the ring against him on shier ability alone. Many believe that during his rise through the Supermiddle weight division he was unbeatable. However he suffered from what many believe to be a lack of quality opposition and his two knockout losses dimmed his brilliance in the eyes of some fans.

Floyd Maywether Jr is a fighter that has truly mastered what is the skill of boxing. His style seems at times flawless and to this day none have managed to put a dent on his perfect reccord. He, like Jones, suffers from a belief that he has not face high quality opposition and his achievements of multidivision titles has been somewhat diminished as his rise happend just at a time when no true champion stood on his way. Even his latest win against Oscar has been tainted with a split decision and claims that he beat an old Oscar.

I'm certain there have been others who deserve a claim on that #1 status but might not have been as popular or had enough big wins to be considered. The point is, maybe it is time for us to start looking into the possibility that there might be better fighters out there. I, for one, am still looking. But I also recognize that that top spot is by no means reserved or taken. It is open to anyone who shows he deserves it.

---

For a long time Jimmy wilde was considered, even in the us, to be the greatest ever p4p fighter... When people like espen, the ring etc now talk about p4p list, they all seem to start AFTER jimmy retired...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The Rookie Fan

I have seen some clips of Robbinson's fights. He always looks impressive. He had power and speed. And I also heard that there are no videos of any fight were he was considered at his prime, which is a real shame but also points out that he was even better than what we now see. His 94 wins in a row is a truly amazing feat and his record speaks greatness.

With that said, is it not possible that there have been better fighters after or even before him. Could it be that the level of competition at the time was not exactly the highest quality. Could it be that fighters today have better training methods and improved skills. Could the general public be saying "he's the best" more out of habit than of any real boxing knowledge.

If any of you know anything about rock and roll you would know that since the 70s, "Starway to Heaven" has been considered, without a doubt, the greatest rock song ever made. It is in the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame along with their great band also considered the greatest Rock band ever. But do we honestly believe that out of the millions of songs composed since then there hasn't been a better song made. I can think of four or five that I like more. But nobody would ever consider replacing that #1 spot.

I, sometimes, believe it is the same way with Robbinson. Surely there have been fighters that have performed well enough to be placed at that #1 spot. Lets take the time and name a few:

Mohamed Ali showed great skill and dominated his division at his time. His level of competition is unquestionably one of the best ever as it is considered a golden age of the HW division. One can only imagine what he could have accomplished if he had not been robbed 3 years of his prime and if he had stepped into the ring in that first fight with Frazier a fully active and well condition fighter.

Sugar Ray Leonard who took on Robbinson's nick name and represented it well. He too faced the highest quality of opposition as he was a member of the so called Fav 4 and was the only one of the group to hold a victory over each of the other members. He also clearly beat another hall of famer in Wilfredo Benitez. He had speed, power, a good chin and knew how to give the crowed what they wanted with his flashy, unforgettable combinations. He, like Ali, fought till he was way passed his prime and his record is less great than it should have been.

Roy Jones Jr is a fighter that possessed such great reflex and ability that he managed to go through almost his entire career without truly possesing much boxing technique but he still managed to dominate pretty much anyone that stepped in the ring against him on shier ability alone. Many believe that during his rise through the Supermiddle weight division he was unbeatable. However he suffered from what many believe to be a lack of quality opposition and his two knockout losses dimmed his brilliance in the eyes of some fans.

Floyd Maywether Jr is a fighter that has truly mastered what is the skill of boxing. His style seems at times flawless and to this day none have managed to put a dent on his perfect reccord. He, like Jones, suffers from a belief that he has not face high quality opposition and his achievements of multidivision titles has been somewhat diminished as his rise happend just at a time when no true champion stood on his way. Even his latest win against Oscar has been tainted with a split decision and claims that he beat an old Oscar.

I'm certain there have been others who deserve a claim on that #1 status but might not have been as popular or had enough big wins to be considered. The point is, maybe it is time for us to start looking into the possibility that there might be better fighters out there. I, for one, am still looking. But I also recognize that that top spot is by no means reserved or taken. It is open to anyone who shows he deserves it.

---

Actually Ray went like 117 in a row before losing or something close to it........

What will or what does make it so hard for other great fighters to be considered better then him P4P is the fact at the time Ray fought there were so many other great fighters of that era....Like it is said on the form time and again to be great you neeed to beat great fighters and in the 40, 50, there were so many of them that Robinson stepped in with

Floyd can do it he needs to win 10 more big fights tho then ppl will consider him up there

there are fights out in video land which show robinson fighting at his prime ...i had the chance to watch his series of fights against jack la motta(aka raging bull) and he just destroyed him but to his credit jack never went down and man he got hit enough times and normal man would have went down....ray robinson will always be regarded as the best pound for pound simply because he was the first fighter to truely be seen as having the co0mplete package and many people say that if u really want to c robinsons style watch muhammed ali in his early years and especially against liston and u would have a carbon copy of the sugers fight style infact it is widely believed muhammed based his style in the beginning on his boxing idol ....the sugar

Fighters from the nineties on will have a hard time competing with fighters from the "Golden Age" of boxing....Boxing historians will always slant towards these eras in boxing that were considered to be unrivaled as far as quality

Unless somebody would go old school and rack up about 90-100 victories in a few different divisions, its not gonna happen.

my grandpa think henry armstrong is the best ever
but on usaual all-time lists srr #1

the only person who might even have a chance is pbf