SUGAR RAY LEONARD - HOW GREAT??

Gonna get some flack for this, but I aint a believer that Leonard was a top 10 all time great!!

Yeh the guy was a great and fought in the best era in history for his weight, but on watching his fights I don't think he was quite as good as a lot of people believe

Duran I

He was getting busted up by Duran during that fight and was really bullied (can't believe Duran started career at 119 pounds) love that fight

Hearns I

Was dominated throughout the fight was totally busted up and would've lost a 12 round fight. Great credit for getting Hearns out of there in the 14th though

Hearns II

I thought he was well beaten


I aint slating the guy, I just would put Hagler and Duran ahead of him p4p all time - and if Hearns had a better chin and didn't have legs like Jelly, he would've been better than all of them

At the end of the day he did beat Duran (No Mass) Hagler (Questionable) and Hearns ( A bit fortunate) but I don't think that

Personally i don't think you can take any credit away from him when it comes to Hearns vs Leonard 1 , it was a 15 round fight, they both knew that , and Hearns got stopped.

I do not like him, but he was a great welterweight. His greatness was illustrated by his come from behind victory over Hearns, shows true heart. His peak was not long, and he is rightly penalised for selecting his opponents after, but he was a great fighter. I was glad when Norris battered him and even the macho man.

The guy was a 4 weight World Champion. He beat Hagler, Hearns and Hagler in the best era of Boxing ever!!

He fought in 3 different decades and had a career that lasted 20 years. Oh and not to mention that in 1979 he fought 9 times and won...........9 times.

What more do you have to do to be GREAT ???

The guy is a legend!

I HATE HIM for knocking out Tommy.....

I HATE him for being given a gift against Hagler....

But I have to give him his due he fought in a golden age of MW, WW the mid 80's.....

He ain't top 10 P4P but top 25 for sure

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Poom

Personally i don't think you can take any credit away from him when it comes to Hearns vs Leonard 1 , it was a 15 round fight, they both knew that , and Hearns got stopped.

---

Exactly!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BlackRazor

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Poom

Personally i don't think you can take any credit away from him when it comes to Hearns vs Leonard 1 , it was a 15 round fight, they both knew that , and Hearns got stopped.

---

Exactly!

---

Yeah I agree with that too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BIG H

Gonna get some flack for this, but I aint a believer that Leonard was a top 10 all time great!!

Yeh the guy was a great and fought in the best era in history for his weight, but on watching his fights I don't think he was quite as good as a lot of people believe

Duran I

He was getting busted up by Duran during that fight and was really bullied (can't believe Duran started career at 119 pounds) love that fight

Hearns I

Was dominated throughout the fight was totally busted up and would've lost a 12 round fight. Great credit for getting Hearns out of there in the 14th though

Hearns II

I thought he was well beaten


I aint slating the guy, I just would put Hagler and Duran ahead of him p4p all time - and if Hearns had a better chin and didn't have legs like Jelly, he would've been better than all of them

At the end of the day he did beat Duran (No Mass) Hagler (Questionable) and Hearns ( A bit fortunate) but I don't think that

---

Only reason he lost the Duran fight is because Duran was talking trash that Leonard never fights or brawls ect so Leonard wanted to prove he could stand his ground if Leonard would of fought his normal way the trilogy would be 3-0 to Leonard.

Hearns was a beast at Welterweight 6 foot 1 tell me one person at Welterweight who wouldn't be outboxed by Hearns at some point ??

I think Leonard is great he had 3 year lay off and comeback to beat number 1 man in Middleweight division Hagler.

Beating

Hearns
Hagler
Duran
Benitez makes you a great.

Not to mention Kalule,and a Gold Medal in 76

The night of Leonard v Hearns Id been in Boxing 15 years. What I saw that night were the best 2 welters Ive ever seen who on that night would have beaten any other, living or dead.

Ice Cold, Trainer & Scrap - great points by all 3 of you!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BIG H

Gonna get some flack for this, but I aint a believer that Leonard was a top 10 all time great!!

Yeh the guy was a great and fought in the best era in history for his weight, but on watching his fights I don't think he was quite as good as a lot of people believe

Duran I

He was getting busted up by Duran during that fight and was really bullied (can't believe Duran started career at 119 pounds) love that fight

Hearns I

Was dominated throughout the fight was totally busted up and would've lost a 12 round fight. Great credit for getting Hearns out of there in the 14th though

Hearns II

I thought he was well beaten


I aint slating the guy, I just would put Hagler and Duran ahead of him p4p all time - and if Hearns had a better chin and didn't have legs like Jelly, he would've been better than all of them

At the end of the day he did beat Duran (No Mass) Hagler (Questionable) and Hearns ( A bit fortunate) but I don't think that

---

Only reason he lost the Duran fight is because Duran was talking trash that Leonard never fights or brawls ect so Leonard wanted to prove he could stand his ground if Leonard would of fought his normal way the trilogy would be 3-0 to Leonard.
Hearns was a beast at Welterweight 6 foot 1 tell me one person at Welterweight who wouldn't be outboxed by Hearns at some point ??

I think Leonard is great he had 3 year lay off and comeback to beat number 1 man in Middleweight division Hagler.

Beating

Hearns
Hagler
Duran
Benitez makes you a great.

---

Surely that proves that shows his frail mentality, not exactly something you expect from a great.
The loss to Duran takes him down a lot in my opinion, Duran was great but he was 12 lbs over his best weight. But he redeemed himself making Duran quit. The third fight came so late it has no historical relevance to me. Beating Hearns (Knocking him out aswell) is a great acheivement, specially showing the character forcing teh kayo while down on the cards. The second fight IMO Hearns won but it goes down as a draw in the record books so after two fight with Hearns being able to say you never lost to 'The Hitman' that is a fantastic thing to be able to boast about. To out fox Hagler the way he did but The biggest jewel in his crown. To beat one of the greatest middleweight's of all-time at 160 lbs is SRL's greatest achievement IMO. a win over a much bigger Don Lalonde is another vital part of the great moments in his career. The losses to Norris and Camacho don't mean anything to me. Ali lost to Berbick but everyone forgets that fight and remebers his prime so thats what I am doing with Leonard.

I have him just outside the top te of all-time.

Shaw I dont think that shows a fraility of character
A level of arrogance he couldnt back up,ok Id grant that
He really thought he could slug with the guy,and up to then,who had proven him wrong?

He was good. But he wasn't great.

if you are calling suger ray good and not great i don't think you know boxing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mr140

if you are calling suger ray good and not great i don't think you know boxing.

---

Oh I know boxing. Which is why I was able to see through the fraud job that was most of Leonard's career. Some one with limited knowledge wouldn't be able to see through it. Which is why you call him great.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sugar_Shaw

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BIG H

Gonna get some flack for this, but I aint a believer that Leonard was a top 10 all time great!!

Yeh the guy was a great and fought in the best era in history for his weight, but on watching his fights I don't think he was quite as good as a lot of people believe

Duran I

He was getting busted up by Duran during that fight and was really bullied (can't believe Duran started career at 119 pounds) love that fight

Hearns I

Was dominated throughout the fight was totally busted up and would've lost a 12 round fight. Great credit for getting Hearns out of there in the 14th though

Hearns II

I thought he was well beaten


I aint slating the guy, I just would put Hagler and Duran ahead of him p4p all time - and if Hearns had a better chin and didn't have legs like Jelly, he would've been better than all of them

At the end of the day he did beat Duran (No Mass) Hagler (Questionable) and Hearns ( A bit fortunate) but I don't think that

---

Only reason he lost the Duran fight is because Duran was talking trash that Leonard never fights or brawls ect so Leonard wanted to prove he could stand his ground if Leonard would of fought his normal way the trilogy would be 3-0 to Leonard.
Hearns was a beast at Welterweight 6 foot 1 tell me one person at Welterweight who wouldn't be outboxed by Hearns at some point ??

I think Leonard is great he had 3 year lay off and comeback to beat number 1 man in Middleweight division Hagler.

Beating

Hearns
Hagler
Duran
Benitez makes you a great.

---

Surely that proves that shows his frail mentality, not exactly something you expect from a great.
The loss to Duran takes him down a lot in my opinion, Duran was great but he was 12 lbs over his best weight. But he redeemed himself making Duran quit. The third fight came so late it has no historical relevance to me. Beating Hearns (Knocking him out aswell) is a great acheivement, specially showing the character forcing teh kayo while down on the cards. The second fight IMO Hearns won but it goes down as a draw in the record books so after two fight with Hearns being able to say you never lost to 'The Hitman' that is a fantastic thing to be able to boast about. To out fox Hagler the way he did but The biggest jewel in his crown. To beat one of the greatest middleweight's of all-time at 160 lbs is SRL's greatest achievement IMO. a win over a much bigger Don Lalonde is another vital part of the great moments in his career. The losses to Norris and Camacho don't mean anything to me. Ali lost to Berbick but everyone forgets that fight and remebers his prime so thats what I am doing with Leonard.

I have him just outside the top te of all-time.

---

well does it show a frail mentality or massive balls ?

If I was a great "boxer" i wouldn't have the guts to dare slug with a beast like the Hands of stone heh.

ok if you consider him just good who do you consider to be great

and another thing i know just as much about boxing as you do don't act like you are all knowing

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BIG H

Gonna get some flack for this, but I aint a believer that Leonard was a top 10 all time great!!

Yeh the guy was a great and fought in the best era in history for his weight, but on watching his fights I don't think he was quite as good as a lot of people believe

Duran I

He was getting busted up by Duran during that fight and was really bullied (can't believe Duran started career at 119 pounds) love that fight

Hearns I

Was dominated throughout the fight was totally busted up and would've lost a 12 round fight. Great credit for getting Hearns out of there in the 14th though

Hearns II

I thought he was well beaten


I aint slating the guy, I just would put Hagler and Duran ahead of him p4p all time - and if Hearns had a better chin and didn't have legs like Jelly, he would've been better than all of them

At the end of the day he did beat Duran (No Mass) Hagler (Questionable) and Hearns ( A bit fortunate) but I don't think that

---

I say Leonard is the best of the four. He had great footwork, reflexes, stamina, power, and more importantly heart. Duran started fighting young, but he was a bigger man naturally than Leonard.

I personally hate Leonard, but when I hear the phrase 'total package', he's the first fighter that comes to mind. He really did have it all.

well yall have pretty much said all my points...SRL would either be in my P4P top ten or just outside....All of PBFs speed and reflexes, Oscars charm, great heart and a pretty good punch as well.............The only thing Duran 1 proved was that SRL let his ego get in the way by trying to bang with Hands of Stones....when he used his boxing he made one of the toughest guys in the sport QUIT

The first Duran fight for the first time showed me Ray had it, what he didnt have was Durans experience and smarts but he went away and learned. He went back with his coach Jacobs I think and worked and evolved

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scrap

The first Duran fight for the first time showed me Ray had it, what he didnt have was Durans experience and smarts but he went away and learned. He went back with his coach Jacobs I think and worked and evolved

---

The mistake a lot of fighters and their trainers/managers made with Ray was they mistook him for nothing more then a pretty boy and hype machine....Ray had way above average power and he had a stellar chin in his prime years..add that to his speed and ability to brawl when it suited him and you had an almost perfect combination.....

If anyone remembers the first Hearns fight Ray actually became the puncher....And to out punch Hearns is no small feat...His jaw was questionable at times but as far as being able to out punch him was something else

Leonard gets the credit he deserves I do not see him as overrated in any way at all

Definately top 10 P4P IMO....cant be bothered to do a list...but last time i did one i had him around 7th or so i think. Without any shadow of a doubt Ray was great.

Interesting stuff fellas - if I was rating teh fab four p4p I would say

Duran
Hagler
Leonard
Hearns

Duran greatest Lightweight
Leonard greatest welterweight
Hagler greatest middleweight
Hearns greatest Light middle, Super middle, light heavy. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Master

Duran greatest Lightweight
Leonard greatest welterweight
Hagler greatest middleweight
Hearns greatest Light middle, Super middle, light heavy. :)

---

Tommy was starched twice at super middle by Barkley...Had a draw with leonard and at LH the only quality fighter he faced was an undefeated Virgil Hill...Nor was/is he the greatest Jr Middle.....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BIG H

Gonna get some flack for this, but I aint a believer that Leonard was a top 10 all time great!!

Yeh the guy was a great and fought in the best era in history for his weight, but on watching his fights I don't think he was quite as good as a lot of people believe

Duran I

He was getting busted up by Duran during that fight and was really bullied (can't believe Duran started career at 119 pounds) love that fight

Hearns I

Was dominated throughout the fight was totally busted up and would've lost a 12 round fight. Great credit for getting Hearns out of there in the 14th though

Hearns II

I thought he was well beaten


I aint slating the guy, I just would put Hagler and Duran ahead of him p4p all time - and if Hearns had a better chin and didn't have legs like Jelly, he would've been better than all of them

At the end of the day he did beat Duran (No Mass) Hagler (Questionable) and Hearns ( A bit fortunate) but I don't think that

---

he was unlucky that due to eye injuries he lost his best boxing years, but eventhough i thought hagler beat him he was an all time great, but not a top ten maybe top 50 at a push.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Violent Demise

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mr140

if you are calling suger ray good and not great i don't think you know boxing.

---

Oh I know boxing. Which is why I was able to see through the fraud job that was most of Leonard's career. Some one with limited knowledge wouldn't be able to see through it. Which is why you call him great.

---

But Ray beat an unbeaten Hearns who later went on to win additional titles proving Ray didn't expose Hearns as a fraud. After he made Duran quit, Duran went up & whipped a young, strong Davey Moore proving Duran had something left @ 154. Ray just making it close with Hagler (a true destroyer) was impressive. Also Ray beating Benitez to win the WBC 147 lb title wasn't bad as was beating an unbeaten Ayub Kalule to take his 154 lb WBA belt before fighting Hearns the 1st time.

Later he beat a much bigger man in Don LaLonde - granted, not a great fighter but a bigger & stronger man than Ray.

If Ray's a fraud after all that, I'd love to be that sort of fraud!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Poom

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sugar_Shaw

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BIG H

Gonna get some flack for this, but I aint a believer that Leonard was a top 10 all time great!!

Yeh the guy was a great and fought in the best era in history for his weight, but on watching his fights I don't think he was quite as good as a lot of people believe

Duran I

He was getting busted up by Duran during that fight and was really bullied (can't believe Duran started career at 119 pounds) love that fight

Hearns I

Was dominated throughout the fight was totally busted up and would've lost a 12 round fight. Great credit for getting Hearns out of there in the 14th though

Hearns II

I thought he was well beaten


I aint slating the guy, I just would put Hagler and Duran ahead of him p4p all time - and if Hearns had a better chin and didn't have legs like Jelly, he would've been better than all of them

At the end of the day he did beat Duran (No Mass) Hagler (Questionable) and Hearns ( A bit fortunate) but I don't think that

---

Only reason he lost the Duran fight is because Duran was talking trash that Leonard never fights or brawls ect so Leonard wanted to prove he could stand his ground if Leonard would of fought his normal way the trilogy would be 3-0 to Leonard.
Hearns was a beast at Welterweight 6 foot 1 tell me one person at Welterweight who wouldn't be outboxed by Hearns at some point ??

I think Leonard is great he had 3 year lay off and comeback to beat number 1 man in Middleweight division Hagler.

Beating

Hearns
Hagler
Duran
Benitez makes you a great.

---

Surely that proves that shows his frail mentality, not exactly something you expect from a great.
The loss to Duran takes him down a lot in my opinion, Duran was great but he was 12 lbs over his best weight. But he redeemed himself making Duran quit. The third fight came so late it has no historical relevance to me. Beating Hearns (Knocking him out aswell) is a great acheivement, specially showing the character forcing teh kayo while down on the cards. The second fight IMO Hearns won but it goes down as a draw in the record books so after two fight with Hearns being able to say you never lost to 'The Hitman' that is a fantastic thing to be able to boast about. To out fox Hagler the way he did but The biggest jewel in his crown. To beat one of the greatest middleweight's of all-time at 160 lbs is SRL's greatest achievement IMO. a win over a much bigger Don Lalonde is another vital part of the great moments in his career. The losses to Norris and Camacho don't mean anything to me. Ali lost to Berbick but everyone forgets that fight and remebers his prime so thats what I am doing with Leonard.

I have him just outside the top te of all-time.

---

well does it show a frail mentality or massive balls ?

If I was a great "boxer" i wouldn't have the guts to dare slug with a beast like the Hands of stone heh.

---

Well those massive balls didn't gain him the win, big balls are good but a win is far better

Of course he won the next one,and he proved he could survive a slug fest nobody thought he could,making everyone re-think whatever game plan they had for him
1 loss today can be worth 10 wins down the road

Leonard is one of the most difficult fighters to rank, because he basically took 5 full years off during what could have been his prime.

I thought he lost to Hagler and lost the rematch with Hearns.
I'd probably put him right about #10 all-time.

One of the great arguments in boxing is trying to rate Leonard/Duran/Whitaker all-time PFP. There's really no right answer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BIG H

Interesting stuff fellas - if I was rating teh fab four p4p I would say

Duran
Hagler
Leonard
Hearns

---

How is Duran rated higher he lost all big fights like.

Wilfredo Benitez
Kirkland Laing
Marvin Hagler
Thomas Hearns in brutal fashion
Robbie Sims


His best wins were Iran Barkley and Pipino Cuevas and Davey Moore and he lost to guys like Laing and Simms who he shouldn't of lost to no way is Duran the best of the 4.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BIG H

Interesting stuff fellas - if I was rating teh fab four p4p I would say

Duran
Hagler
Leonard
Hearns

---

How is Duran rated higher he lost all big fights like.

Wilfredo Benitez
Kirkland Laing
Marvin Hagler
Thomas Hearns in brutal fashion
Robbie Sims


His best wins were Iran Barkley and Pipino Cuevas and Davey Moore and he lost to guys like Laing and Simms who he shouldn't of lost to no way is Duran the best of the 4.

---

Great question Ice Cold. Hearns didn't just beat Duran, he iced him like Duran was some sort of club fighter & Hearns was using the fight as a tune up bout.

Definitely among the all-time greats. Tremendous natural talent, especially his hand and foot speed and boxing ability. Despite being able to out-box most opponents, he often went in for kill. Didn't hurt that he had excellent power and a tremendous chin.

But its that heart that distinguishes him from many other extremely talented fighters (like say, roy jones). He went toe to toe with duran when he didn't have to. his KO of hearns was one of the most dramatic comebacks in boxing history. He almost repeated that in Hearns II. Often great atletes are defined by great moments, and Leonard had more than most: like making duran quit, or coming off the ropes in rd 9 vs. hagler. What heart, what drama.

But the real characteristic that puts him among the all-time was his ability to win while his skills declined. The hagler fight was one of the best thought out strategies in boxing history (probably ali-foremen being the greatest). The greatest athletes in history (ali, Jordan) were able to win with brains and change their style as their skills eroded, something tyson, for example, could not do.

Thats a good post cc

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BIG H

Interesting stuff fellas - if I was rating teh fab four p4p I would say

Duran
Hagler
Leonard
Hearns

---

How is Duran rated higher he lost all big fights like.

Wilfredo Benitez
Kirkland Laing
Marvin Hagler
Thomas Hearns in brutal fashion
Robbie Sims


His best wins were Iran Barkley and Pipino Cuevas and Davey Moore and he lost to guys like Laing and Simms who he shouldn't of lost to no way is Duran the best of the 4.

---

You obviously know more than almost all the respected boxing writers in the world that almost unanimously have Duran in the top 5 fighters of all time. ;)

Problem is that you have not seen his career as a lightweight which is where he is a should be rated. He had already had 75 fights before any of the fights you mentioned and the loses were after he moved up atleast 2 weights - he was 71-1 at Lightweight FFS. Beat Sugar Ray Leonard at Welter, was level after 12 against Hagler at Middle all of this after over 70 fights!!

He started his career at 119 pounds, was 5'7 and had a 26" reach, is it really a surprisde that he lost to 6'1 Thomas Hearns at 154 pounds??

When you make comments like this about Duran you come across as a 'Johnnycomelately" whose only knowledge of Duran's career is what you have seen on Boxrec ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Manju

Definitely among the all-time greats. Tremendous natural talent, especially his hand and foot speed and boxing ability. Despite being able to out-box most opponents, he often went in for kill. Didn't hurt that he had excellent power and a tremendous chin.

But its that heart that distinguishes him from many other extremely talented fighters (like say, roy jones). He went toe to toe with duran when he didn't have to. his KO of hearns was one of the most dramatic comebacks in boxing history. He almost repeated that in Hearns II. Often great atletes are defined by great moments, and Leonard had more than most: like making duran quit, or coming off the ropes in rd 9 vs. hagler. What heart, what drama.

But the real characteristic that puts him among the all-time was his ability to win while his skills declined. The hagler fight was one of the best thought out strategies in boxing history (probably ali-foremen being the greatest). The greatest athletes in history (ali, Jordan) were able to win with brains and change their style as their skills eroded, something tyson, for example, could not do.

---

Superb post friend,have a cool click on me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BIG H

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BIG H

Interesting stuff fellas - if I was rating teh fab four p4p I would say

Duran
Hagler
Leonard
Hearns

---

How is Duran rated higher he lost all big fights like.

Wilfredo Benitez
Kirkland Laing
Marvin Hagler
Thomas Hearns in brutal fashion
Robbie Sims


His best wins were Iran Barkley and Pipino Cuevas and Davey Moore and he lost to guys like Laing and Simms who he shouldn't of lost to no way is Duran the best of the 4.

---

You obviously know more than almost all the respected boxing writers in the world that almost unanimously have Duran in the top 5 fighters of all time. ;)

Problem is that you have not seen his career as a lightweight which is where he is a should be rated. He had already had 75 fights before any of the fights you mentioned and the loses were after he moved up atleast 2 weights - he was 71-1 at Lightweight FFS. Beat Sugar Ray Leonard at Welter, was level after 12 against Hagler at Middle all of this after over 70 fights!!

He started his career at 119 pounds, was 5'7 and had a 26" reach, is it really a surprisde that he lost to 6'1 Thomas Hearns at 154 pounds??

When you make comments like this about Duran you come across as a 'Johnnycomelately" whose only knowledge of Duran's career is what you have seen on Boxrec ;)

---

CC Big H,totally agree. Duran was first and foremost a lightweight and is as complete a legend there as you'll find in any weight class although I didn't actually know he started at 119?!?!?!?! Anything he did after lightweight was the icing on the cake and for him to go as high as he did and still win is simply sensational.Good posting. I've never seen Duran not in a top 10 list and usually top 5.

Not to go on a tangent, but I would have loved to see ODH vs Duran at 135