left hand low- more effective and more versatile

im orthodox and i can fight in the traditional british style stand up boxing - i know the basics. punching, defense footwork combos etc.

but recently i have been working on a few NEW moves to me. like the shoulder roll and other moves that go with it. and i find this is extremly effective. however, the coach at the gym i train at jus wont have it, he wont allow me to have my left low. he always says hands tight hands up etc even when its workin perfectly, i cud hear his voice in the background "HANDS UP" its annoyong.

now i dont see the point in changing gyms cos hardly anyone in britain will allow me to have my left low. even if its a little low, chest level.
now i know these trainers are too dumb to know that its not too much of a big deal having the left a little low if you know what your doing, cos they HAVE NEVER SEEN GREAT FIGHTERS LIKE MAYWEATHER, LOCCHE AND TONEY IN ACTION. so explaining it is out of the question.

i sparred the other day and didnt get caught with one right hand or a left hook. the only thing they do is jab after they get countered a couple of times. now if i sparred the usualy conventional style its difficult to block/parry every right hand. i find this way so fluid and easy.

any advice?

You don't have to take my word for it but if I were you I'd work my ass off to prove them wrong. I prefer to have my hands at about shoulder/chest level unless I'm throwing a punch and bringing the other hand up when needed. You know that even James Toney when he was working with the moves like his shoulder roll that we take for granted he got knocked on his butt in the beginning but he kept working on it and he improved it to grace that we've seen him bring into his fights.

All the techniques are out there, a good place to look is at the fights by those great fighters that you've mentioned and finding other fighters that have the moves that you're looking for. A lot of good fighters improved themselves by watching fights, including the great ones such as the Sugars, Ali's, etc.

That's something you should explore. So when someone says your left is low, you don't just tell them, you show them why. "Throw me a right hand and I'll show you what this is all about!" ;)

depending on how much experience you have, leaving your left hand low is asking for trouble in a very big way. I took a beating tonight because of a lazy left hand.

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Originally Posted by Lionheart Lacy

i sparred the other day and didnt get caught with one right hand or a left hook. the only thing they do is jab after they get countered a couple of times. now if i sparred the usualy conventional style its difficult to block/parry every right hand. i find this way so fluid and easy.

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Just trying to make sure I get what you're saying although i won't try to offer advice because I'm still finding my own defensive skills. You were using shoulder rolls and what else instead of blocking and parrying?

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Originally Posted by Von Milash

depending on how much experience you have, leaving your left hand low is asking for trouble in a very big way. I took a beating tonight because of a lazy left hand.

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its not so much an issue of experience as it is a combination of natural instinct, reflexes, and vision...

and

there is a huge difference between a lazy left, as you put it, and a low left, as you were responding to. the lazy left is something that you deserve to get beaten for. the low left is something that, when used properly, the fighter is aware of. if you keep your left hand low, it changes your frame of mind to move and not block. if you keep it low and stay aware of the possible consequences then you can be very dangerous with it. a lazy left is just crap every time...the difference should be noted and i am a proud practitioner of the low left as part of a varied arsenal, offense and defense, regardless of what trainers say.

and

next time the trainer tells you to keep your hand up, feel free to ask them if they have ever seen anyone get hit with their hand up high. if you got the radar for it, then work it, just know the consequences, if you dont got the radar, dont even bother.

This is a subject on which I'm prone to wax eloquent...Pardon me if I'm a bit on the piss....
Look at the great fighters. Archie Moore, Gene Tunney, Dempsey, any of them. NOT A SINGLE ONE had their left hand up in front of their face. Billy Graham, Ray Robinson, find one that held that left up in front of their eyes.
See the punches!!

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

This is a subject on which I'm prone to wax eloquent...Pardon me if I'm a bit on the piss....
Look at the great fighters. Archie Moore, Gene Tunney, Dempsey, any of them. NOT A SINGLE ONE had their left hand up in front of their face. Billy Graham, Ray Robinson, find one that held that left up in front of their eyes.
See the punches!!

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still, the amateur game is so different to the pros though.

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

This is a subject on which I'm prone to wax eloquent...Pardon me if I'm a bit on the piss....
Look at the great fighters. Archie Moore, Gene Tunney, Dempsey, any of them. NOT A SINGLE ONE had their left hand up in front of their face. Billy Graham, Ray Robinson, find one that held that left up in front of their eyes.
See the punches!!

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The thing is if you keep your hands onto your face you're commited to blocking and that alone. It's a passive defense keeping your hands on your cheeks that prevents you from feinting, parrying, and even seeing. Back in the day amateurs fought more like professionals than they do today.

If you could slip, roll, catch, parry and counter with impunity your defense would be far greater than if you were to have your hands attached to your face. Your hands hands can still be brought up to block punches as needed.

Why work harder holding your hands up to your eyeballs which is going to do you more harm than good?

I'm in sort of the same position as LL. My coaches always say to keep our hands up and I feel awkward and have trouble seeing shots coming. Last week I was working a little on defense and I found I felt a lot more comfortable with my left low. I could catch more punches on my shoulder and I had a lot easier time parrying with the right since I could see better and the left wasnt up there in the way. I also noticed that it feels a lot more natural standing sideways to an opponent that way... i tend to want to square up more when i have both hands up.

Having re-read this
They have you going both hands high,and their complaining about shoulder rolls????????
Granted Im no fan of both hands high,and prefer a staggered,left at the shoulder right below the chest stance,but the only way both hands high works is if you roll

If you know the answers and read the signals correct and understand touch and feel you can Box with your thumb up your arse.

which most people don't. people do it because they see the greats do it. But THEY aren't the greats.

Von you are correct,

People always talk about hands up as if that the easiest way to learn and to a point I agree. Would some of it depend on the individual and their build though?

A coach in my gym LOVES both the hands up directly in front for every situation (attacking or defence) and feels comfortable punching out of it and coming back to it. He's extremely, unusually stocky though (not just compared to me) - it seems natural that he can block a lot of force even walking straight into a big right hand.

I on the otherhand SUCK at this! Sure I'll aim to keep my hands up but if I couldn't see I'd move the hand a bit because getting at least partially out of the way is almost the only time I don't get knocked off balance by a punch.

I don't have a large number of people to compare to know if this really has anything to do with it though. Do other people notice this at all or am I just making excuses for not liking something?

Id rather watch a Pernell Whittaker than a Winky Wright even though I like Winky. Its a different concept and mindsett I love flare I want to see skill without innabition

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Originally Posted by Scrap

Id rather watch a Pernell Whittaker than a Winky Wright even though I like Winky. Its a different concept and mindsett I love flare I want to see skill without innabition

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But then again if i were to give my opinion then i would say neither have the perfect punching technique

Winky's lack of technique for punching just works for how good his defense is and pernells hands bieng low is only made up for also but his defensive skill and extremely unorthadox style..

Course it works for them..But putting theyr style to any old person just means loss of power and punching technique maybe even for them too..

Such as have your hands up and shooting either strait shot and snapping it out well is how to punch..

Winky has his hands higher then they need to be and when he jabs it is either slower to bring it down to the chin and shoot it strait or to shoot strait from where he holds at his forehead looses snap and comes down with it and isnt strait..

Pernell can use his angles to his advantage but having your hands low just looses the straitness and snapp of a jab and they become more or less backhands/slaps and can be used to set up combinations etc..

Not that my point is textbook but it is certainly a way to enterperet this..

If i were to make some sort of theory forwhere to place your hands etc i would say learn everything you can to the textbook and modify as you see fit..For if you havnt tried or quite discovered what is standard practice and textbook then its really unfair to judge when style and comfort is swaying your decision of styles

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Originally Posted by Scrap

Id rather watch a Pernell Whittaker than a Winky Wright even though I like Winky. Its a different concept and mindsett I love flare I want to see skill without innabition

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Agreed.

I think many trainers teach the hands up style of boxing as an excuse for the fact that they don't know much about defense.

Theres a lot of truth in that

Knowing when (for each seperate individual) to pear off from the basics or drop them completly due to other advanced adjustments is something many trainers cant be bothered with.They teach whole ways to whole groups and wont be moved.

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Originally Posted by Andre

Knowing when (for each seperate individual) to pear off from the basics or drop them completly due to other advanced adjustments is something many trainers cant be bothered with.They teach whole ways to whole groups and wont be moved.

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Very true andre very true. Thats how they do it at my gym. They have too many kids and not enough trainers so they just throw them in groups where theyre told to do this or that while the trainer walks off to go smoke a cigarette outside or have a conversation with his buddy or something. What is the worst thing is that these kids get stuck with the idea that the trainer is some god like being and second guessing the things he "teaches" is like second guessing god. He never gives the kids the idea that they are smart enough to figure things out on their own or that they even should and as a result they become completely dependant on him. Then you get a bunch of people who never advance past what the trainer says. in other words generation after generation of steady ignorance.

Let me try this one again...
I don't think that the "hands up" defense and using your shoulder are mutually exclusive. It all depends where you put your left hand and how you position your feet.
"Hands up" means, these days, covering your eyes with your left hand. That not only makes it impossible to see a right hand coming, it makes it impossible to throw a jab. By "throwing a jab" I don't mean poking your arm out in front of you. I mean delievering a blow that matters. You CANNOT do that if you jab with your left glove starting at eye level. Get that glove to around shoulder level and snap that arm out and bring it back on the same path. Let yourself see punches coming.
Now, if you square your feet towards an opponent you better keep that left very high because your shoulder is too far out of the way to be of any use. In boxing EVERY SINGLE THING YOU WILL EVER DO STARTS WITH HOW YOU PLACE YOUR FEET. Find your stance and then turn your front foot, leg, and hip inwards. I had many posts on this in the past. That makes you a more narrow target, presenting your left hip and shoulder- are you following me here?- to your opponent.
At this point you are in position, and it is NATURAL, to use your shoulder to defend against a right hand. You CANNOT use this defense if you are squared up and trying to use the "peek-a-boo" defense. They are mutually exclusive and this is why Tyson, and Patterson before him, ate right hands like M&Ms.

Hands up is an amateurs thing,its not to be shrugged off,but its not to be relied on if you want to go pro
In the amateurs or the semi-pros nobody goes to the body,unless you have serious power you dont even have enough rounds to cash the checks youve been depositing down there,so almost nobody goes there.So why guard there
If you have better aspirations change that guard though

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Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey

Hands up is an amateurs thing,its not to be shrugged off,but its not to be relied on if you want to go pro
In the amateurs or the semi-pros nobody goes to the body,unless you have serious power you dont even have enough rounds to cash the checks youve been depositing down there,so almost nobody goes there.So why guard there
If you have better aspirations change that guard though

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Now shouldnt that little truth, tell all serious top amatures to develop a mid section knockout punch to the so many high handed reactions.

Make them raise their guard up even further, and then drill them into their liver, kidneys and stomach. Sounds good to me. :)

Here's the thing, for me any way, and I think that a review of old fights and fighters will bear this out.
To do effective body work you don't have to work the body constantly for 5 rounds, exposing yourself to counters etc...Gene Tunney, in his time, was considered a very very effective body puncher because of his straight right to the heart and/or solar plexus and his hook to the body. These days a "good bodypuncher" throws that hook to the side over and over again. But consider the value of a stiff jab to the solar plexus, or the straight right to the heart. The left hook to the heart or solar plexus, the right uppercut to the bottom rib on the right side...These are very effective and relatively safe.
But my point is this. Properly set up and executed one body blow can do the work of round after round of flailing. For perspective. In a streetfight, hands break on heads, that big bone vs. little bone mismatch and very few really experienced fighters- like in the pen, etc..- start off at the head. A quick blow to the chest robs your opponent of breath for the duration of the fight. Once, in my experience, there was a fight in very close quarters and, while one guy won through the use of a "foreign object" the other guy was layed up for nearly three days from two very hard body punches. Pick your shots in others words. Then learn how to punch hard at the opening you have created and one or two body shots can make a tremendous difference in a 3 round fight.

the important hand to keep close to the chin is the right hand
for defense and leverage, but for the left hand for orthodox
boxers there is no right or wrong position as long as
you are aware of the risks.

The classic counter for the low left hand is to follow the opponents left jab
back with the right hand - it then becomes the game of timing and speed.

If a boxer trains with his left low, it is only a matter of time
when you get caught cold with a right hand and if you are bringing it back
- tough to be in position to avoid the right.

Versatility is important, and at times dropping the left is good
if you know what you are doing and have the speed.
Sometimes dropping the left hand can draw the opponents right hand,
but you need to have a flexible plan to deal with the right.

In summary, there are no cast in concrete styles, but for the novice
-do not try to be cute before learning the skills or there will be
a heavy price to pay with some slick fast and smart puncher
bouncing sizzling shots off of your badly exposed "thick" skull.