Pernell Whitaker the best P4P of all time?

It seems like "Sugar Ray Robinson" has become the default answer for the old "who is the best P4P" question, and it seems like the answer everyone is willing to accept. And thats cool, because SRR was an incredible fighter and deserves any respect and admiration he gets.

But what about Whitaker? Does he unfairly get left out? It just seems to me that all the guys that get considered for the best P4P - SRR, Roberto Duran, Henry Armstrong, ect - always seem to be the guys with big punching power, something Pernell obviously lacked. So do you think Pernell gets underrated because of his lack of punching power?

I guess I'm just wondering why no one ever suggests that Pernell might be the greatest. I have DVD sets of a lot of a lot of the greats - Ali, Duran, Ray Leonard, Hearns, Ray Robinson, Roy Jones, ect - and Pernell strikes me as perhaps being superior to all of them. I think the guy was just on another level. I don't believe he truely lost a fight until he fought the much stronger Tito when he was 35 years old...

He is without a doubt top 10.

neat fellow pete.. whitaker had a fondness for Pepperoni pizza after workouts. He could eat !

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

It seems like "Sugar Ray Robinson" has become the default answer for the old "who is the best P4P" question, and it seems like the answer everyone is willing to accept. And thats cool, because SRR was an incredible fighter and deserves any respect and admiration he gets.

But what about Whitaker? Does he unfairly get left out? It just seems to me that all the guys that get considered for the best P4P - SRR, Roberto Duran, Henry Armstrong, ect - always seem to be the guys with big punching power, something Pernell obviously lacked. So do you think Pernell gets underrated because of his lack of punching power?

I guess I'm just wondering why no one ever suggests that Pernell might be the greatest. I have DVD sets of a lot of a lot of the greats - Ali, Duran, Ray Leonard, Hearns, Ray Robinson, Roy Jones, ect - and Pernell strikes me as perhaps being superior to all of them. I think the guy was just on another level. I don't believe he truely lost a fight until he fought the much stronger Tito when he was 35 years old...

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I feel sorry for Whitaker because imo he should have only 2 losses i bet when new boxing fans check up and see Whitaker loss to this guy they would of never heard of aka Jose Luis Ramirez and he lost to Oscar by that much even though he really didn't lose by that much ect thats impression i get from new boxing fans anyway but imo he is easily top 15 p4p of all time but was very unlucky with his decisions i think if he would of got the nod against Chavez and Ramirez like he should of had he would be rated alot higher but in record books it will always stand as loss and a draw and thats where Whitaker gets underrated imo but in my book he was one of the best defensive fighters ever if not the best he made it look so easy in the ring a pleasure to watch but very unlucky.

In boxing, more than any other sport, its not whether you win or lose, but how you play the game. So those who win by KO will be considered better than those who win on points. If boxing is a metaphor for war, the KO represents the ultimate surrender.

Winning ugly (not that Pernell did this) is more detrimental to a boxer than it is to any other athlete. A defense first fighter, especially one who grabs and holds, will rarely be considered great even if he wins a lot.

As for Pernell, he was a virtuoso defensive boxer. At his best he was very entertaining to watch, could make opponents miss while standing right in front of them, and was arguably the premier fighter of his time, especially after his performance against Chavez.

But he does need to be demoted because of his lack power.

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Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

It seems like "Sugar Ray Robinson" has become the default answer for the old "who is the best P4P" question, and it seems like the answer everyone is willing to accept. And thats cool, because SRR was an incredible fighter and deserves any respect and admiration he gets.

But what about Whitaker? Does he unfairly get left out? It just seems to me that all the guys that get considered for the best P4P - SRR, Roberto Duran, Henry Armstrong, ect - always seem to be the guys with big punching power, something Pernell obviously lacked. So do you think Pernell gets underrated because of his lack of punching power?

I guess I'm just wondering why no one ever suggests that Pernell might be the greatest. I have DVD sets of a lot of a lot of the greats - Ali, Duran, Ray Leonard, Hearns, Ray Robinson, Roy Jones, ect - and Pernell strikes me as perhaps being superior to all of them. I think the guy was just on another level. I don't believe he truely lost a fight until he fought the much stronger Tito when he was 35 years old...

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I feel sorry for Whitaker because imo he should have only 2 losses i bet when new boxing fans check up and see Whitaker loss to this guy they would of never heard of aka Jose Luis Ramirez and he lost to Oscar by that much even though he really didn't lose by that much ect thats impression i get from new boxing fans anyway but imo he is easily top 15 p4p of all time but was very unlucky with his decisions i think if he would of got the nod against Chavez and Ramirez like he should of had he would be rated alot higher but in record books it will always stand as loss and a draw and thats where Whitaker gets underrated imo but in my book he was one of the best defensive fighters ever if not the best he made it look so easy in the ring a pleasure to watch but very unlucky.

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Whitaker deserved the win against Ramirez. But Ramirez was an outstanding fighter. And I think a lot of people of who watch boxing know Ramirez. It's unfair to call him an unknown.

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Originally Posted by Violent Demise

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Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

It seems like "Sugar Ray Robinson" has become the default answer for the old "who is the best P4P" question, and it seems like the answer everyone is willing to accept. And thats cool, because SRR was an incredible fighter and deserves any respect and admiration he gets.

But what about Whitaker? Does he unfairly get left out? It just seems to me that all the guys that get considered for the best P4P - SRR, Roberto Duran, Henry Armstrong, ect - always seem to be the guys with big punching power, something Pernell obviously lacked. So do you think Pernell gets underrated because of his lack of punching power?

I guess I'm just wondering why no one ever suggests that Pernell might be the greatest. I have DVD sets of a lot of a lot of the greats - Ali, Duran, Ray Leonard, Hearns, Ray Robinson, Roy Jones, ect - and Pernell strikes me as perhaps being superior to all of them. I think the guy was just on another level. I don't believe he truely lost a fight until he fought the much stronger Tito when he was 35 years old...

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I feel sorry for Whitaker because imo he should have only 2 losses i bet when new boxing fans check up and see Whitaker loss to this guy they would of never heard of aka Jose Luis Ramirez and he lost to Oscar by that much even though he really didn't lose by that much ect thats impression i get from new boxing fans anyway but imo he is easily top 15 p4p of all time but was very unlucky with his decisions i think if he would of got the nod against Chavez and Ramirez like he should of had he would be rated alot higher but in record books it will always stand as loss and a draw and thats where Whitaker gets underrated imo but in my book he was one of the best defensive fighters ever if not the best he made it look so easy in the ring a pleasure to watch but very unlucky.

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Whitaker deserved the win against Ramirez. But Ramirez was an outstanding fighter. And I think a lot of people of who watch boxing know Ramirez. It's unfair to call him an unknown.

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VD bro i said Whitaker deserved the win and i wasn't calling Ramirez a unknown but you ask the average armchair fan and they will say Ramirez who ?? i tell you what speaking of Ramirez i loved his 2nd fight with Rosario man that was a war.

He is near or at the top of my list. Never truly been beaten. His last fight was kind of misfortune.
He had a way to make great fighters look average or bad.

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Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING

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Originally Posted by Violent Demise

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Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

It seems like "Sugar Ray Robinson" has become the default answer for the old "who is the best P4P" question, and it seems like the answer everyone is willing to accept. And thats cool, because SRR was an incredible fighter and deserves any respect and admiration he gets.

But what about Whitaker? Does he unfairly get left out? It just seems to me that all the guys that get considered for the best P4P - SRR, Roberto Duran, Henry Armstrong, ect - always seem to be the guys with big punching power, something Pernell obviously lacked. So do you think Pernell gets underrated because of his lack of punching power?

I guess I'm just wondering why no one ever suggests that Pernell might be the greatest. I have DVD sets of a lot of a lot of the greats - Ali, Duran, Ray Leonard, Hearns, Ray Robinson, Roy Jones, ect - and Pernell strikes me as perhaps being superior to all of them. I think the guy was just on another level. I don't believe he truely lost a fight until he fought the much stronger Tito when he was 35 years old...

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I feel sorry for Whitaker because imo he should have only 2 losses i bet when new boxing fans check up and see Whitaker loss to this guy they would of never heard of aka Jose Luis Ramirez and he lost to Oscar by that much even though he really didn't lose by that much ect thats impression i get from new boxing fans anyway but imo he is easily top 15 p4p of all time but was very unlucky with his decisions i think if he would of got the nod against Chavez and Ramirez like he should of had he would be rated alot higher but in record books it will always stand as loss and a draw and thats where Whitaker gets underrated imo but in my book he was one of the best defensive fighters ever if not the best he made it look so easy in the ring a pleasure to watch but very unlucky.

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Whitaker deserved the win against Ramirez. But Ramirez was an outstanding fighter. And I think a lot of people of who watch boxing know Ramirez. It's unfair to call him an unknown.

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VD bro i said Whitaker deserved the win and i wasn't calling Ramirez a unknown but you ask the average armchair fan and they will say Ramirez who ?? i tell you what speaking of Ramirez i loved his 2nd fight with Rosario man that was a war.

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Fair enough.

hes up there top 5 mayb , not 1 defintly not 1, i personally rank jones higher despite the knockout losses he accomplished some things but ray robinson is 1 until ppl buy a barain and match him up, he was great amzingly great but dammit these days a figher cant have 200 fights

It' great to see people giving Pernell the credit he deserves,I actually think he is somewhat under rated at times.I actually didn't know who Pernell was when I first came here and made a thread about,found all his fights and became a fan ever since.

A wonderful defensive fighter with a good offence. He could fight going backwards,forwards,sideways,through combos,great jab,good body puncher,if he had that little bit more power,he could very well have been the perfect fighter.I've never seen someone make great fighters look so bad,ie the Chavez fight. He was also a guy people didn't want to rematch either(Oscar)

His resume is a list of who's who at the time he was in the particualr weight class,something you don't find nowadays with boxers choosing to pick and choose who they fought. Never really suffered a loss until he was old and ravaged by drugs if I remember correctly. I'd have him in the top 10-15. I don't think I could have his as THE GOAT because I just feel SRR achieved more and had more longeviety.

I've got him about 8th or 9th of all time - I had him losing to Oscar only coz he lost the last round - and he was well past his best by then

I have Whitaker ranked around 6th or 7th of all-time, and I rank him as the best fighter of the last 30 years. He's definitely one of the two greatest defensive fighters ever, Pep being the other.

He officially has 4 losses, 1 draw, and 1 NC, but he was only truly beaten once, and that was against a prime Tito, when Pernell was 35 years old, coming off an 18 month layoff, and battling cocaine addiction.

His loss to Ramirez was a horrible decision (that he avenged with a 12 round shutout in the rematch), his draw with Chavez was a joke, I thought he beat Oscar 7-5 in a close fight, his no-contest was a fight he won but failed his drug test (cocaine), and his last loss was when he broke his clavicle and had to throw in the towel because he was fighting with one arm.

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Originally Posted by SweetPea

I have Whitaker ranked around 6th or 7th of all-time, and I rank him as the best fighter of the last 30 years. He's definitely one of the two greatest defensive fighters ever, Pep being the other.

He officially has 4 losses, 1 draw, and 1 NC, but he was only truly beaten once, and that was against a prime Tito, when Pernell was 35 years old, coming off an 18 month layoff, and battling cocaine addiction.

His loss to Ramirez was a horrible decision (that he avenged with a 12 round shutout in the rematch), his draw with Chavez was a joke, I thought he beat Oscar 7-5 in a close fight, his no-contest was a fight he won but failed his drug test (cocaine), and his last loss was when he broke his clavicle and had to throw in the towel because he was fighting with one arm.

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Good post - agree with most of that, but I think Oscar just nicked their fight

Whitaker is top 20 of all-time without doubt. He was an unbelievable fighter.

One other thing I'll add about Pernell is just how great of a chin he had. That often gets overlooked, because in his prime he never got hit, so no one knew whether his chin was any good.
When he faced Trinidad, his speed was gone and he couldn't make guys miss anymore, Tito landed bombs for 12 rounds and couldn't KO Pernell. The other guys who went the distance with Tito (Oscar, BHop, Winky), they were able to do it with great defense, they avoided getting hit. Pernell ate Tito's best shots for 12 rounds.

His chin is one of the things that separates Pernell from a fighter like Roy Jones.

Yes SWEETPEA is one of the all time top 10 greats , not always pretty to watch but a wonderful fighter in his prime.
1. Think about this 1 , put a power punch in his fists and maybe just maybe he would have been better than even Robinson ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
2. Think of this if you gave Hearns-Robinson-Duran the power p4p of SWEETPEA , how far do you think they would have gone ? or would they be in the all time list ? i think not.
So to sum up for a guy with everything but power he is GREAT ;D

I don't really get into lists, definitely greatest fighters of all time lists, but I guess I'd have him in the top ten, top fifteen at least.

I did think he beat Oscar too. he didn't do a whole lot offfensively but Oscar didn't land much at all.

I’m going to be honest, I’m only 16 year olds and Have only been totally into boxing since January or so. I’ve seen highlights from him, and just watching those I mean wow! He had a style that was crazy, you would throw and you would just miss.

The best pound for pound of all time???...No I can't agree with that....I do agree with the point made that he is at times unfairly overlokked due to lack of punching power...As a lot of fighters with a low percentage of knockouts are.....

In another thread I made a comment about those type fighters after someone had said guys like Malinaggi are ruining the sport.....The refrence to Malinaggi had to do with lack of punching power....I replied that if you only like boxing for the KO's you are not a true fan of boxing you only like to see someone get knocked out...I was dogged by many for this.....

Yet Pernell suffered the same fate being he was not a power puncher he is often over looked because the lack of KJO's keep him off many a highlight reel....

With that being said....One problem that does effect Pernell in the P4P ranking is the same one that keeps him out of the list of first names being thrown out....Guys mentioned such as Robinson,,Leonard,,ect...Were equally skilled in some ways even more as boxers but they also had the ability to KO someone when need be.....As Leonard showd in the first fight with Hearns when he became the puncher.....

So a big reason many overlook Pernell is if he faced a man he could not outbox ( though in his prime there are few ever)...He was not going to beat them....

Defensively he was a master....He was slicker then oil on offense...You did not watch Pernell to see a KO you watched him to see a master boxer show exactly what the craft of Boxing was about...Hit and do not be hit.....

I do not put him in the top 10 due simple to the fact a great boxer with punching power would be able to keep him busy enough to keep thinking but use their power to keep him on defense...without the chance to make his own offensive attack.....

I put him between 15-20 ATG P4P in his prime

I may be biased as a Pernell Whitaker fan, but I just can't see Sweetpea not being in the top 5 P4P of all time. I mean I for one cannot name 10 guys who I think even MIGHT have been better than him.

Also, I don't understand why someone should be demoted for a lack of punching power. The object of boxing is to WIN. Of course you can do it by knocking a man unconscious, but it isn't the only way. And personally, I don't see it as always being the dominant way. Anyone can get knocked out, it only takes one punch. I've worked as a bouncer and I've seen people get knocked out by guys who flailed wildly with no real punching skill. Personally, I think Pernell dominating a legend like JCC for 12 rounds is a lot more impressive than landing one punch and knocking a guy out in the first 15 seconds. Think about it, Pernell doesn't have the power to even bother a guy with a chin like JCC's, so JCC had no need to really worry about Pernell's offense, and even then he STILL Couldn't do shit to Sweetpea. Thats mighty impressive imo

Pernell is a legend. I often hear people compare Floyd to him...and while it's true that both are defensively brilliant...i always felt Whitaker was just funner to watch.

aboutboxing.com had at 10

espn had him at 44 i think

pernell top ten if not you must be tripping on acid

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

I may be biased as a Pernell Whitaker fan, but I just can't see Sweetpea not being in the top 5 P4P of all time. I mean I for one cannot name 10 guys who I think even MIGHT have been better than him.

Also, I don't understand why someone should be demoted for a lack of punching power. The object of boxing is to WIN. Of course you can do it by knocking a man unconscious, but it isn't the only way. And personally, I don't see it as always being the dominant way. Anyone can get knocked out, it only takes one punch. I've worked as a bouncer and I've seen people get knocked out by guys who flailed wildly with no real punching skill. Personally, I think Pernell dominating a legend like JCC for 12 rounds is a lot more impressive than landing one punch and knocking a guy out in the first 15 seconds. Think about it, Pernell doesn't have the power to even bother a guy with a chin like JCC's, so JCC had no need to really worry about Pernell's offense, and even then he STILL Couldn't do S*** to Sweetpea. Thats mighty impressive imo

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Don't get me wrong I am a huge fan of Pernell...I often use him as a measuring stick on what a fighter should have as a complete package...If you ever look at my post I am a guy who will be first to say KO's to me are not that important...Do I like to see them of course I do but I also love nothing more then a masterful performance in the ring and that is just what Pernell put on time and again.....I was just stating on how I felt why he is often overlooked and I can name 10 guys I feel that P4P are better then he was...Again it is just my opinion....oThers will disagree some will agree...Does not mean I take anything away from the man...Nor does it mean I rank him where I do because of his KO ratio...I personally rank fighters according to overall skill not in one area...Power just happens to be part of the...not the most important but it HAS to be factored in somewhere

Im trying to think of a guy that was harder to hit and I got nuttin. I remember the first time I saw him do that little move were he got REAL low , I thought "how is that possible"

Im a big fan ,he lives in Norfolk VA about 1-1/2 hours from me so I had a couple of oportunities to meet him and got my picture with him. I never saw him in a real fight in person , but in a exibition that was a bit weird. Some guy won a contest on the radio to go a few rounds with him. Aparently the dude trained and everything,actully thought he was going to KO Sweet Pea LOL.
After Pernell made a fool of him he poped him in the nose just for fun I guess , lots of blood. LOL I think regular guys shouldnt go around saying they are going to KO the PFP best fighter in the world at the time. ;D ;D

My personal favorite of all time. I rank him in the top 10 and around the #9 spot. I think along with SRR and RJJ he is the most skilled boxer of all time. Some fighters had better accomplishments and more fights, but for in ring performance, he was hard to top.

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Originally Posted by Landon

Im trying to think of a guy that was harder to hit and I got nuttin. I remember the first time I saw him do that little move were he got REAL low , I thought "how is that possible"

Im a big fan ,he lives in Norfolk VA about 1-1/2 hours from me so I had a couple of oportunities to meet him and got my picture with him. I never saw him in a real fight in person , but in a exibition that was a bit weird. Some guy won a contest on the radio to go a few rounds with him. Aparently the dude trained and everything,actully thought he was going to KO Sweet Pea LOL.
After Pernell made a fool of him he poped him in the nose just for fun I guess , lots of blood. LOL I think regular guys shouldnt go around saying they are going to KO the PFP best fighter in the world at the time. ;D ;D

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Ha Ha Ha...I love it....For all my years around this sport I will never get over the fact that guys out there think they can come in off the street after a few weeks of working out and actuallly hang with a pro fighter.....Even one who is not a top guy but fights at a journeyman level but often...someone like Emmanuel Augustas lets say....When will these fellows get it through their head that these men make theri living hitting and getting hit...this is not the local toughman contest and a few 1 min rds....

You would think the fact a pro fighter has their hands registered as weapons in most states would give them a clue ???

Had a guy come to my gym once...Muscle bound kid real impressive looking...Not a guy you would want to get into a bar room brawl with....But he had an attitude...he acted like a tough guy.....First time sparring I put him in with a Kid Named Marcus who was an amatuer but just won a few nationals and the Empire State Games Gold Medal....Marcus not the type to take liberties with anyone and I knew he would be able to avoid the guy if this muscle bound jerk started getting out of hand in the ring....Long story short...The guy was about 220-230 Marcus was 160 at the time....Made a fool of the guy.....Big man kept trying to throw Bombs and KO marcus..could not touch him....

Next day guy comes back and says it was not fair Marcus was too quick ect....So I get my Super HW Trevor Bryan who was the #1 ranked Jr SHW amatuer in the country at the time.....Trevor put the guy on his ass 4 times in a round...Trevor was only 15 at the time.....Trevor a big kid 6'6" 235 about the same size as this grown man who was humbled......

The guy got the hint and actually stuck around learned his basics and won a few amatuer bouts still trains to this day there......Another big guy came around a few months ago with the same attitude this guy did 2 years ago wanting to spar with a boxer his second day....I told him no we don't let people just come in and spar without knowing they are ready....guy laughed it off and said to me...."Well I can understand you don't want any of these kids in with me" ( our amatuer team was training that day)...and says what about that guy there he ain't a kid and points to a fellow in the corner working with his son.......


Guy in the corner was Verno Phillips who was in town visiting and stopped by to say hi...His son Josh trains at our place....The reaction was classic

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Originally Posted by DaxxKahn

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Originally Posted by Landon

Im trying to think of a guy that was harder to hit and I got nuttin. I remember the first time I saw him do that little move were he got REAL low , I thought "how is that possible"

Im a big fan ,he lives in Norfolk VA about 1-1/2 hours from me so I had a couple of oportunities to meet him and got my picture with him. I never saw him in a real fight in person , but in a exibition that was a bit weird. Some guy won a contest on the radio to go a few rounds with him. Aparently the dude trained and everything,actully thought he was going to KO Sweet Pea LOL.
After Pernell made a fool of him he poped him in the nose just for fun I guess , lots of blood. LOL I think regular guys shouldnt go around saying they are going to KO the PFP best fighter in the world at the time. ;D ;D

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Ha Ha Ha...I love it....For all my years around this sport I will never get over the fact that guys out there think they can come in off the street after a few weeks of working out and actuallly hang with a pro fighter.....Even one who is not a top guy but fights at a journeyman level but often...someone like Emmanuel Augustas lets say....When will these fellows get it through their head that these men make theri living hitting and getting hit...this is not the local toughman contest and a few 1 min rds....

You would think the fact a pro fighter has their hands registered as weapons in most states would give them a clue ???

Had a guy come to my gym once...Muscle bound kid real impressive looking...Not a guy you would want to get into a bar room brawl with....But he had an attitude...he acted like a tough guy.....First time sparring I put him in with a Kid Named Marcus who was an amatuer but just won a few nationals and the Empire State Games Gold Medal....Marcus not the type to take liberties with anyone and I knew he would be able to avoid the guy if this muscle bound jerk started getting out of hand in the ring....Long story short...The guy was about 220-230 Marcus was 160 at the time....Made a fool of the guy.....Big man kept trying to throw Bombs and KO marcus..could not touch him....

Next day guy comes back and says it was not fair Marcus was too quick ect....So I get my Super HW Trevor Bryan who was the #1 ranked Jr SHW amatuer in the country at the time.....Trevor put the guy on his a** 4 times in a round...Trevor was only 15 at the time.....Trevor a big kid 6'6" 235 about the same size as this grown man who was humbled......

The guy got the hint and actually stuck around learned his basics and won a few amatuer bouts still trains to this day there......Another big guy came around a few months ago with the same attitude this guy did 2 years ago wanting to spar with a boxer his second day....I told him no we don't let people just come in and spar without knowing they are ready....guy laughed it off and said to me...."Well I can understand you don't want any of these kids in with me" ( our amatuer team was training that day)...and says what about that guy there he ain't a kid and points to a fellow in the corner working with his son.......


Guy in the corner was Verno Phillips who was in town visiting and stopped by to say hi...His son Josh trains at our place....The reaction was classic

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Awesome I love storys like that. I tell people Im a boxing fan and they asaume I have been in the ring and can fight bla bla bla.. why anly in boxing. You dont see a guy with a Nascar t-shirt on and assume he races in the cup races. LOL

I would love to hang around a gym like yours and see those things happen. I guess I could carry buckets of spit.LOL

I think if you measured PSI he would punch harder, but before prison Tyson had that ability to hit the opponent at the perfect time which he lost afterwards to a large degree. Many fights pre-prison I would see him dodge a jab or hook and connect so cleanly as the opponents head was coming back the other way. He was beautiful to watch, but after jail he didn't get his body in his punches like he used to, and he was as quick. I say in the ring he hit harder pre-prison, but he hit hard either way.

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Originally Posted by Taeth

I think if you measured PSI he would punch harder, but before prison Tyson had that ability to hit the opponent at the perfect time which he lost afterwards to a large degree. Many fights pre-prison I would see him dodge a jab or hook and connect so cleanly as the opponents head was coming back the other way. He was beautiful to watch, but after jail he didn't get his body in his punches like he used to, and he was as quick. I say in the ring he hit harder pre-prison, but he hit hard either way.

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I think you may have wandered into the wrong thread. :bananasex:

Pernell was a fighter like SRR and Pep, fighters who were ahead of their time.