If Freddie Roach about to fall out of favour?

For the past couple years Freddie Roach has been the most popular trainer in boxing, he's possibly the most recognisable, the one the stars want to work with and has always seemed the most personable and talented guy out there,

However over the past 12 months or so it seems to me that he's on a fast decline in terms of being one the best trainer.

His fighters, Manny Pacquiao aside have generally underperformed, he must be at least partly respsonsible for James Toney's appaling conditioning in recent years and I can't remember the last time a Freddie Roach trained fighter won a major fight, B Hop doesn't really count.

He's had fallings out with just about everyone, Bob Arum is barely talking to him, his second Justine Fortune quit because he felt he was being ripped off and reading in a boxing interview this week he says he has no idea how James Toney is and that he hasn't spoke to him since his last fight, hardly an attentive trainer then ???

Furthermore he ditched Manfredo and a host of other lesser fighters to train De La Hoya, not even bothering to show in Manfredo's corner for the biggest fight of his life against Joe Calzaghe. If there was an example of abandoning someone to face the lions den alone surely that was it.

And this weekend we learned of another dispute this time with Isreal Vazquez. Vazquez ditched him as trainer, Roach responded by saying Vazquez was unfit to fight and was becoming punchy slurring his words, and was completely wrong.


So where does Freddie go from here? Is he still the best in the business? Will the elite stars all be clamouring for him in 12 months time and if so will his pnadering to them lose him his bread and butter fighters disgruntled over his seeming disloyalty and willingness to just chase after the big bucks?

I'm not actually making an opinion here I'm just trying to form one. Have I got the whole picture, am I missing something, am I being unfair?

I see your point but at the same time, fighters such as Vasquez and Donaire who Roach laid the groundwork for are doing better than ever, plus Oscar lost a SD to Floyd, hardly a bad job considering he was a 5/2 under dog.

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Originally Posted by 'Big' Dan McCarthy

I see your point but at the same time, fighters such as Vasquez and Donaire who Roach laid the groundwork for are doing better than ever, plus Oscar lost a SD to Floyd, hardly a bad job considering he was a 5/2 under dog.

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But Vazquez lost under Roach and won under Perez, he looked like a different fighter. I know the nose probably contributed but he was a different fighter this time around.

I didn't know Donaire was a Roach trained fighter although it makes sense seeing as he is the pied piper of Manilla.

Thats just crazy talk...This is boxing....People have outs all the time...One day they are on the outs the next they are working together....It is a business......

As for Toney there is no one to blame bt himself for his condition...At the point and time of his career he is at everything with a trainer is just procedure...Freddie can not make him shed weight or stay on point....It is not like he will be teaching james anything new...Just like with Hopkins the only thing he really needs a trainer for is during the fight...........

As for the leaving Manfredo for DLH...lets thhink about it here a second OK....There was a ton more money to be made with Oscar....Again it is a business

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

For the past couple years Freddie Roach has been the most popular trainer in boxing, he's possibly the most recognisable, the one the stars want to work with and has always seemed the most personable and talented guy out there,

However over the past 12 months or so it seems to me that he's on a fast decline in terms of being one the best trainer.

His fighters, Manny Pacquiao aside have generally underperformed, he must be at least partly respsonsible for James Toney's appaling conditioning in recent years and I can't remember the last time a Freddie Roach trained fighter won a major fight, B Hop doesn't really count.

He's had fallings out with just about everyone, Bob Arum is barely talking to him, his second Justine Fortune quit because he felt he was being ripped off and reading in a boxing interview this week he says he has no idea how James Toney is and that he hasn't spoke to him since his last fight, hardly an attentive trainer then ???

Furthermore he ditched Manfredo and a host of other lesser fighters to train De La Hoya, not even bothering to show in Manfredo's corner for the biggest fight of his life against Joe Calzaghe. If there was an example of abandoning someone to face the lions den alone surely that was it.

And this weekend we learned of another dispute this time with Isreal Vazquez. Vazquez ditched him as trainer, Roach responded by saying Vazquez was unfit to fight and was becoming punchy slurring his words, and was completely wrong.


So where does Freddie go from here? Is he still the best in the business? Will the elite stars all be clamouring for him in 12 months time and if so will his pnadering to them lose him his bread and butter fighters disgruntled over his seeming disloyalty and willingness to just chase after the big bucks?

I'm not actually making an opinion here I'm just trying to form one. Have I got the whole picture, am I missing something, am I being unfair?

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It bothers me that he has been ditching his fighters to work Mercinary jobs... I'd be pissed if I were one of his fighters and he said, "Sorry but this is worth more money to me!"

Thats all fine and good but tend to your charges!

You have made an name for yourself but you don't see another trainer ditching his guys more often the FR

He needs to prioritize and if he already is then he is truly a Merc!

I think Toney just works out at Roach's gym more than is trained. Freddy has said he doesn't do much with James. James spars and is famous for it, but doesn't run or do much else to get in shape. As far as being out of favor, I don't think so. He's still doing well and has a good reputation. I think he got a boost from ODH and will now be the Golden Boy favored trainer. Just not enough to bring him down. I think his sickness will make him unable to be productive as a trainer though.

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Originally Posted by PRIDE OF BOSTON

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

For the past couple years Freddie Roach has been the most popular trainer in boxing, he's possibly the most recognisable, the one the stars want to work with and has always seemed the most personable and talented guy out there,

However over the past 12 months or so it seems to me that he's on a fast decline in terms of being one the best trainer.

His fighters, Manny Pacquiao aside have generally underperformed, he must be at least partly respsonsible for James Toney's appaling conditioning in recent years and I can't remember the last time a Freddie Roach trained fighter won a major fight, B Hop doesn't really count.

He's had fallings out with just about everyone, Bob Arum is barely talking to him, his second Justine Fortune quit because he felt he was being ripped off and reading in a boxing interview this week he says he has no idea how James Toney is and that he hasn't spoke to him since his last fight, hardly an attentive trainer then ???

Furthermore he ditched Manfredo and a host of other lesser fighters to train De La Hoya, not even bothering to show in Manfredo's corner for the biggest fight of his life against Joe Calzaghe. If there was an example of abandoning someone to face the lions den alone surely that was it.

And this weekend we learned of another dispute this time with Isreal Vazquez. Vazquez ditched him as trainer, Roach responded by saying Vazquez was unfit to fight and was becoming punchy slurring his words, and was completely wrong.


So where does Freddie go from here? Is he still the best in the business? Will the elite stars all be clamouring for him in 12 months time and if so will his pnadering to them lose him his bread and butter fighters disgruntled over his seeming disloyalty and willingness to just chase after the big bucks?

I'm not actually making an opinion here I'm just trying to form one. Have I got the whole picture, am I missing something, am I being unfair?

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It bothers me that he has been ditching his fighters to work Mercinary jobs... I'd be pissed if I were one of his fighters and he said, "Sorry but this is worth more money to me!"

Thats all fine and good but tend to your charges!

You have made an name for yourself but you don't see another trainer ditching his guys more often the FR

He needs to prioritize and if he already is then he is truly a Merc!

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Yeah that is pretty much how I see it. I mean I know it's all business at the end of the day but for a fighter I'd have thought it would be paramount that you could feel you bonded with your trainer and that he cared about you. Ditching Manfredo and not even working his corner in the biggest fight of his life when he was an overwhleming underdog and really needed an experienced guy looking out for him was just unexcusable I felt.

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by PRIDE OF BOSTON

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

For the past couple years Freddie Roach has been the most popular trainer in boxing, he's possibly the most recognisable, the one the stars want to work with and has always seemed the most personable and talented guy out there,

However over the past 12 months or so it seems to me that he's on a fast decline in terms of being one the best trainer.

His fighters, Manny Pacquiao aside have generally underperformed, he must be at least partly respsonsible for James Toney's appaling conditioning in recent years and I can't remember the last time a Freddie Roach trained fighter won a major fight, B Hop doesn't really count.

He's had fallings out with just about everyone, Bob Arum is barely talking to him, his second Justine Fortune quit because he felt he was being ripped off and reading in a boxing interview this week he says he has no idea how James Toney is and that he hasn't spoke to him since his last fight, hardly an attentive trainer then ???

Furthermore he ditched Manfredo and a host of other lesser fighters to train De La Hoya, not even bothering to show in Manfredo's corner for the biggest fight of his life against Joe Calzaghe. If there was an example of abandoning someone to face the lions den alone surely that was it.

And this weekend we learned of another dispute this time with Isreal Vazquez. Vazquez ditched him as trainer, Roach responded by saying Vazquez was unfit to fight and was becoming punchy slurring his words, and was completely wrong.


So where does Freddie go from here? Is he still the best in the business? Will the elite stars all be clamouring for him in 12 months time and if so will his pnadering to them lose him his bread and butter fighters disgruntled over his seeming disloyalty and willingness to just chase after the big bucks?

I'm not actually making an opinion here I'm just trying to form one. Have I got the whole picture, am I missing something, am I being unfair?

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It bothers me that he has been ditching his fighters to work Mercinary jobs... I'd be pissed if I were one of his fighters and he said, "Sorry but this is worth more money to me!"

Thats all fine and good but tend to your charges!

You have made an name for yourself but you don't see another trainer ditching his guys more often the FR

He needs to prioritize and if he already is then he is truly a Merc!

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Yeah that is pretty much how I see it. I mean I know it's all business at the end of the day but for a fighter I'd have thought it would be paramount that you could feel you bonded with your trainer and that he cared about you. Ditching Manfredo and not even working his corner in the biggest fight of his life when he was an overwhleming underdog and really needed an experienced guy looking out for him was just unexcusable I felt.

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I hear ya... I didn't give Manfredo much of a shot in the fight but Manfredo hit a wall with his father years ago... His dad is a good trainer but took Pete as far as he could go. Roach was his shot. Obviously it wasn't that important to him. See, I think he would make a much bigger name for himself taking a guy like Manfredo into the Elite rather then training an already great fighter...

But like you said and I have to agree, that at the end of the day it's business!

There is ONLY but 1 person responsible for what happened with Toney, and that's Toney himself.

When you get/have seasoned fighters like him you can talk and encourage all you wan't but they're gonna do what they're gonna do.

I think Roach's is one of the best and for NO reason do the best fighters in the world come to Wild Card Gym to train with him....

B-Hop was the last win he had ;)

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Originally Posted by DaxxKahn

Thats just crazy talk...This is boxing....People have outs all the time...One day they are on the outs the next they are working together....It is a business......

As for Toney there is no one to blame bt himself for his condition...At the point and time of his career he is at everything with a trainer is just procedure...Freddie can not make him shed weight or stay on point....It is not like he will be teaching james anything new...Just like with Hopkins the only thing he really needs a trainer for is during the fight...........

As for the leaving Manfredo for DLH...lets thhink about it here a second OK....There was a ton more money to be made with Oscar....Again it is a business

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It's not just his ability as a coach though, remember Justin Fortune quit and walked out claiming Roach was ripping him off trying to claim the money for 'training' fighters he had dumped for De La Hoya and left Fortune to work. I know he's been accused of getting involved in disputes between Arum and Pacquio as well.

I'm havn't really made up my mind to be honest, I didn't like the fact that he dropped a lot of fighters to train Oscar, I know it was a great opportunity but he could have dealt with a bit bit better surely. I mean he seemingly manages to juggle training 101 fighters simultanously but when Oscar calls it's a 24/7 job and he's got no time for anybody else.

I havn't really come to a conclusion myself I just get the feeling from reading between the lines that he soon be falling from grace so to speak.

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Originally Posted by CutMeMick

There is ONLY but 1 person responsible for what happened with Toney, and that's Toney himself.

When you get/have seasoned fighters like him you can talk and encourage all you wan't but they're gonna do what they're gonna do.

I think Roach's is one of the best and for NO reason do the best fighters in the world come to Wild Card Gym to train with him....

B-Hop was the last win he had ;)

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Mick, I hear you but a trainer and a student absolutly work better when they know each other... They know what the other is thinking and know how to pump them up or settle them down. I think Roach is doing himself a disservice by training as a Mercenary(obviously not money wise)

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Originally Posted by CutMeMick

There is ONLY but 1 person responsible for what happened with Toney, and that's Toney himself.

When you get/have seasoned fighters like him you can talk and encourage all you wan't but they're gonna do what they're gonna do.

I think Roach's is one of the best and for NO reason do the best fighters in the world come to Wild Card Gym to train with him....

B-Hop was the last win he had ;)

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Yeah I mentioned him but said it didn't really count.

You really need to start reading threads in their entirety Mick, maybe take your shades off when you're logging on

;D

I guess I just miss the days when it was like a father son relationship... A close bond rather then a business(although thats what it's always been there was a time when it was slightly differnt, ya know?)

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by CutMeMick

There is ONLY but 1 person responsible for what happened with Toney, and that's Toney himself.

When you get/have seasoned fighters like him you can talk and encourage all you wan't but they're gonna do what they're gonna do.

I think Roach's is one of the best and for NO reason do the best fighters in the world come to Wild Card Gym to train with him....

B-Hop was the last win he had ;)

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Yeah I mentioned him but said it didn't really count.

You really need to start reading threads in their entirety Mick, maybe take your shades off when you're logging on

;D

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Thaose are shades?!?!?!

I thought he just had really big eyes... Those come off?

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Originally Posted by PRIDE OF BOSTON

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Originally Posted by CutMeMick

There is ONLY but 1 person responsible for what happened with Toney, and that's Toney himself.

When you get/have seasoned fighters like him you can talk and encourage all you wan't but they're gonna do what they're gonna do.

I think Roach's is one of the best and for NO reason do the best fighters in the world come to Wild Card Gym to train with him....

B-Hop was the last win he had ;)

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Mick, I hear you but a trainer and a student absolutly work better when they know each other... They know what the other is thinking and know how to pump them up or settle them down. I think Roach is doing himself a disservice by training as a Mercenary(obviously not money wise)

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I also noticed in a recent interview on boxingtalk Roach was asked how James was following his ban and he said he hadn't heard from him since the Batchelder fight. They then asked him if the two of the were still friends and he said 'As far as I know'. :-\

Fortune quit because he was angry that Roach left him with all his fighters to train when he went off to work with Oscar, yet wanted all the trainers fees for 'training' the fighters he abandoned when he left.

He just seems.......I don't know like not a sincere man. I always used to think him and Manny were real tight, the same with him and Toney but it turns out that Arum want's Pacquiao to distance himself from Roach, Freddie doesn't even bother to call Toney when he gets banned, he just seems a little off to me.

Contrast him with say Billy Graham who you could picture walking into a lions den with Ricky in a do or die effort, or Winky and Birmingham who seem to have a real bond.

People critiscise fighters for working with their fathers but honestly at least they are truly 100% behind you even if they may lack expertise and objectivity.

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Originally Posted by PRIDE OF BOSTON

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by CutMeMick

There is ONLY but 1 person responsible for what happened with Toney, and that's Toney himself.

When you get/have seasoned fighters like him you can talk and encourage all you wan't but they're gonna do what they're gonna do.

I think Roach's is one of the best and for NO reason do the best fighters in the world come to Wild Card Gym to train with him....

B-Hop was the last win he had ;)

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Yeah I mentioned him but said it didn't really count.

You really need to start reading threads in their entirety Mick, maybe take your shades off when you're logging on

;D

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Thaose are shades?!?!?!

I thought he just had really big eyes... Those come off?

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ha lmao cc ;D

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by PRIDE OF BOSTON

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Originally Posted by CutMeMick

There is ONLY but 1 person responsible for what happened with Toney, and that's Toney himself.

When you get/have seasoned fighters like him you can talk and encourage all you wan't but they're gonna do what they're gonna do.

I think Roach's is one of the best and for NO reason do the best fighters in the world come to Wild Card Gym to train with him....

B-Hop was the last win he had ;)

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Mick, I hear you but a trainer and a student absolutly work better when they know each other... They know what the other is thinking and know how to pump them up or settle them down. I think Roach is doing himself a disservice by training as a Mercenary(obviously not money wise)

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I also noticed in a recent interview on boxingtalk Roach was asked how James was following his ban and he said he hadn't heard from him since the Batchelder fight. They then asked him if the two of the were still friends and he said 'As far as I know'. :-\

Fortune quit because he was angry that Roach left him with all his fighters to train when he went off to work with Oscar, yet wanted all the trainers fees for 'training' the fighters he abandoned when he left.

He just seems.......I don't know like not a sincere man. I always used to think him and Manny were real tight, the same with him and Toney but it turns out that Arum want's Pacquiao to distance himself from Roach, Freddie doesn't even bother to call Toney when he gets banned, he just seems a little off to me.

Contrast him with say Billy Graham who you could picture walking into a lions den with Ricky in a do or die effort, or Winky and Birmingham who seem to have a real bond.

People critiscise fighters for working with their fathers but honestly at least they are truly 100% behind you even if they may lack expertise and objectivity.

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I'll be honest, Birminham was the first trainer to come to mind or a "Cost" with Tyson... I always had soooooooo much respect for freddie... He, sometimes we forget, was a good fighter too!

But he, in my mind is losing some steam... Maybe it's cuz he's trying to make as much as he can before he is dehibilitated, I don't know!

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by 'Big' Dan McCarthy

I see your point but at the same time, fighters such as Vasquez and Donaire who Roach laid the groundwork for are doing better than ever, plus Oscar lost a SD to Floyd, hardly a bad job considering he was a 5/2 under dog.

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I didn't know Donaire was a Roach trained fighter although it makes sense seeing as he is the pied piper of Manilla.

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Yeah, Nonito was trained by his father, Diosdao Gabi, and Freddie Roach at the wild card gym.

It's not just his ability as a coach though, remember Justin Fortune quit and walked out claiming Roach was ripping him off trying to claim the money for 'training' fighters he had dumped for De La Hoya and left Fortune to work. I know he's been accused of getting involved in disputes between Arum and Pacquio as well.

I'm havn't really made up my mind to be honest, I didn't like the fact that he dropped a lot of fighters to train Oscar, I know it was a great opportunity but he could have dealt with a bit bit better surely. I mean he seemingly manages to juggle training 101 fighters simultanously but when Oscar calls it's a 24/7 job and he's got no time for anybody else.

I havn't really come to a conclusion myself I just get the feeling from reading between the lines that he soon be falling from grace so to speak.
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As far as the Money side of it all goes I can not say....I know Freddie is entitled to 10% I think by law so anything more then that I guess there would be a problem but again I can not comment on how the financials are.....If he manages and trains he is entitled up to 40%...If he is taking the full 40 I can see some guys getting ticked off

if you think roach has been doing bad, what trainer has been doing good then ???

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Originally Posted by Julius Rain

if you think roach has been doing bad, what trainer has been doing good then ???

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Me ;D

I could have resisted doing that,but I didnt ;D

boxers drop trainers all the time if they think they would be better off somewhere else... not being funny but manfedo is a nobody, yeah he was on a reality tv show, and yeah he can box abit, other than that hes going to get nowhere and i highly doubt will ever win anything or will be cared about in a couple of years time... you can't blame roach for taking the oscar role, thats where the money was, and future.. GBP are one of the biggest there is right now, and roach knew if he got in with oscar it would open up for him to train other GB fighters - and look who trained last....

I think roach was worried about vazquez thats why he wasn't there in his corner. Isreal one of roach stubborn son prove himself. Its a classic how a fighter goes out nearly all by himself to redeem himself against a great fighter like rafa. It just shows how great isreal vazquez is too.

that also proves that fighters do know whats best for them. ONly they can really know their condition. Isreal proved everybody wrong, and what a way to redemption.

I disagree Bilbo although good topic. Firstly,all trainers surely go through periods when their fighters are not winning,I'm sure a thread like this could have been done about Mcgirt not so long ago. Secondly,whilst I agree that the way he dropped everyone for Oscar wasn't what all trainers would have done but Freddy was not stupid,Oscar is a better fighter to train than Manfredo in that it brings Roach exposure,and would have gotten him ALOT of respect had Oscar won.Obvioulsy the $$$ helped too. He did as well with Oscar as anyone could have done imo.

He won his last fight with Bernard not to mention the numerous Filipino fighters he has/may have success with. Manny Pacquiao was a dangerous albeit limited fighter and now,under the tutillage of Roach,is a P4P monster. I think Roach deserves credit.

I've never really rated Roach as a trainer. I agree with the first post..He doesn't always seem to be good for his fighters. I sometimes get that feeling about Emmanuel Steward as well. Naseem dipped in form under him and so has JT. Not a knock on either of their training skills but perhaps more a knock on their people skills? Like someone already mentioned if you have that bond with your trainer I think you'll see much better results. Maybe they just don't gel with everybody. Roach's biggest fighter is obviously Manny but I think he's lucky that Manny is quick and powerful because he lunges in a lot without much regard for defence.
A trainer I notice who's fighters do seem to improve when he is on board is Mayweather Sr. Love him or hate him, even though his claims of being ''the best trainer on the planet'' are very arrogant, he seems to get results. I'm interested to see how Joan Guzman does under him. He is the father and trainer (I don't care what Roger says, he jumped in when Floyd was already the man) of the Pound for Pound king. Oscar was obviously happy with him as well but circumstances changed which made it impossible for them to train together.

How about Buddy McGirt, it seems like everytime he takes on a new already established fighter--they lose

Could be possible Roach is considering an alliance with oscar becoming the trainer of the young Golden Boy stable?????

You no what i found weird bout freddy...In the videos of wher he trained B-Hop in front of the media allegedly at the end of a training camp. They were workin the pads and roach called combinations and movements that had Hop like wtf? At the end of a training camp a fighter (not to mention Hopkins) should instinctively no what the trainer means....What was the story there?

I'm not sure what stance I want to take on this but I do know it was an enjoyable read, Bilbo. Good thoughts.


I do say that it is hard for me to believe that someone in his shape could keep on truckin' with the same pizazz year after year. There has to be obvious decline in the man and I often wonder how many people are just too scared to confront him about it for fear of hurting him emotionally.