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joe louis was pratically invincible during his reign --as was tyson-only of 5 yrs though.
joe louis had only 1 loss during his prime --so did tyson--they both took that fight very lightly---with good reason
tyson came out of retirement of 5 yrs and was only a shadow of the real iron mike
louis came outta retirement and was just a shadow of the brown bomber
i only did this post cuz its something different
Thats where the comparisons end though
Joe Louis was the heavyweight champion for 13 years, defended his title successfully 25 times, and had 7 title defenses in one year.
Joe Louis is "THE GREATEST OF ALL TIME"
Nice Comparison. Don't forget they both had sad lives after boxing and both left the sport broke.
I think that Louis was better, overall, than either Ali or Tyson, but stlyes make fights.
The young Ali (Clay,then) had the best chance of beating Louis because of his fleetness of foot. Louis liked to get set. The young Tyson would beat that Ali because of HIS foot and hand speed and power. The young Tyson was very very fast. The young, prime Tyson wouldn't go 2 with Louis because of his hard fast short punches.
No way Tyson beats Ali and NO WAY Tyson beats Louis
The power and snap he had in those short punches were just fucking amazing.Quote:
Originally Posted by greynotsoold
[youtube=425,350]LiI2rBggtpc[/youtube]
First few clips on this vid.
....you know who else looked like that??? Floyd Patterson!
NO ONE has done what Joe Louis did and no one will come close to being that great.....well Larry Holmes tried but his power never really shocked me like Joe's.
Don't get me wrong, Tyson was a great specimen and a brilliant but I think his mental/psychological traits would make him the underdog vs almost all of the all-time greats ESPECIALLY guys like Ali and Foreman.
A Tyson-Walcott fight would have been a sight to see....Jersey Joe with his flashy footwork and Tyson with his full speed ahead bullying pressure.
Got to disagree.Prime Tyson would have beaten a Prime Ali or Louis. Tyson was just so fast and strong during his prime.Ali or Louis would have the same beating as Spinks in the hand of Tyson.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
Yes, and it was the UNDISPUTED world championship.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
Louis was a machine, a murderous punching, unemotional stonefaced monster who cleaned out the division three times. He fought everybody around.
There are some parallels ..... both were very young when they hit prominance, both were being acclaimed as the saviour of the heavyweight division, both absolutely terrified their opponents. Both were big hitters with surprisingly good technique. Both struggled to cope with life outside the ring and ended up broke.
The differences - Tyson employed devastating speed and power, used in a series of rushes up to and into his opponents. His combinations were the reason that he got most of his early KOs (th opponent usually never saw the last punch) though he settled into relying more on one=punch power later in his career. Louis was a stalker, he would cut off the ring remorselessly and unload blurrinf combinations on the inside .... the greatest short puncher, and finisher, in history.
Two great fighters at their best .... but I'm with Lyle on this .... Louis was superior.
And what PRIME all-time greats did Tyson demolish???Quote:
Originally Posted by brucelee
You need to see more Joe Louis obviously he was COLD BLOODED! Louis-Schmelling II was more brutal than ANYTHING Tyson ever handed out!
[youtube=425,350]lnTDtqiYzww[/youtube]
And Ali would box Tyson's ears off after basically taking his heart and eating it before the fight even happened. I don't like Ali as "The Greatest" but he was a phenomenal boxer and could take anything Tyson could dish out.....
look at the style match up
Ali - Cus D'Mato trained Floyd Patterson
[youtube=425,350]xlNwujdeZQE[/youtube]
look at the mental battle
Ali-Liston (The Baddest Man on the Planet)
[youtube=425,350]ZGqL4y7gSyI[/youtube]
Ali-Liston I proved that Ali could take punishment and survive vs anyone
Tyson would ko Louis early, he was bigger and Louis was vulnerable early and Tyson was at his most devastating early. If Tyson did not do it early then Louis stood a chance. In terms of greatness Joe Louis was better but in a one off match Tyson would win.
And Spinks wasn't a great Heavyweight he only got the title getting 2 gift decisions of an old fading Holmes with there 2nd fight being robbery and you actually can't be serious thinking 2 all time greats like Ali, Louis would end up sameway as Spinks ?? and people wonder why i don't like Tyson fans this is perfect example right here.Quote:
Originally Posted by brucelee
Tyson's best wins were against old rusty Holmes and Lightheavyweight Spinks did you know someone had already koed Berbick in 1 round after Tyson done it in 2 ?? Tony Tubbs was a decent win but he only had 2 weeks to train and was well out of shape Pinklon Thomas had just got out of rehab and i never considered him that good anyway Tillis a journeyman gave Tyson alot of trouble a fight that is not well known about i suggest you go watch it and Tillis is very very poor mans version of Ali.
Ain't really seen enough of JL to be honest, but Ali and Tyson I have, and for me Tyson at his best would not have lived with Ali at his best....
Why, because in my opinion only, Tyson although himself was fairly fast and powerfull would have been far too one dimensional for lateral thinking Ali, and for me unless Tyson got lucky with a big shot would have been given a painfull runaround leading to defeat every day of the week by the speed, strength and class of Ali...
Just my opinion though.. :badass:
Tyson was HEAVIER but not taller than Louis...so I guess it depends on what you mean by "bigger"Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Louis inspite what everyone would have you believe had a very good defense and good head movement and NEVER missed a punch because he was out of range...he missed but he knew his range better than anyone else.
Louis had natural power and in those 7 title fights in one year he scored 6 KNOCKOUTS! (and 1 dq win)
When people say in that video "Nobody could remember seeing a kid punch like this" you must remember this was only a decade past Dempsey and Max Baer who killed two guys was still fighting.
And he was the first guy to stop james Braddock who had a hell of a chin
ali was the greatest--and i think the people who say hes not secretly believe it 2.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
ali would make louis look like an amateur---im talking bout the float sting aka the 60's ali. he would win over louis with an ud. if billy conn almost beat louis --ali definitaly can
not saying louis beat ali but ali had problems with lesser men then joe louis
Louis avenged most of his losses. Tyson did not.
Ali style wise would beat Louis no doubt, but this is boxing and he could land the punch.
I am not saying Tyson was greater heavyweight than Louis but he could have beaten him, he was bigger weight wise and he could have steamrollered over Louis. Lets face it that would have been Tyson's best chance.
...I think everyone underestimates Joe Louis, the greatest heavyweight of all-time!
I LOVE Iron Mike but I'm with Lyle on this one. Joe Louis was amazing,I've never seen a HW unload such short,powerful combinations.
Joe Loius is the second greatest heavyweight of all time behind Ali. However in a one off match he may have lost to Tyson but that does not make him greater than Louis.
Muhammad Ali for me was the greatest heavyweight fighter of all time.
Of course this subject is objective each man will have his own individual selection and reasoning behind his choice.
However I feel that there is a very strong case for Ali's election as the G.O.A.T.
1)Skills. In his era Ali faced another candidate for most skilled Heavyweight of all time; Floyd Patterson. In this fight Ali used a supposed Patterson shoulder injury to his advantage and throughly outboxed his disheartened opponent. For a demonstration of the more mature Ali's skill, see Ali v Clevland Williams.
2)Speed.Ali at his peak had spedd which was rivalled only by the aforementioned Patterson and perhaps later Jimmy Ellis. This spee was the key to Ali's brilliance. Similarly to Roy Jones Jr. early Ali relied greatly on his natural athleticism for such exhibitions of natural brilliance as Liston Ali 1 and Ali Cooper 2.
3)Power.Muhammad Ali's power in my opinion and i'm sure in many of his opponents opinions was underrated. He was the first man to stop Oscar Bonavena with a dynamite left hook after Bona Vena had gone the distance with Frazier and Foreman. Other punching displays such as those withWilliams and Liston illustarte that the lip could really smack...
4)Ring Generalship. For me this is wher Ali snatchess the crown of GOAT. His adaptability, intelligence and all round mastery of the ring was a heavyweight rendition of Maeldrick taylors or Floyd Mayweathers feat...On the defensive against Foreman, on the calculated assault against Terell or in a to and fro battle like the Thrilla in Manilla or the third Norton fight Ali WAS king of the Ring and all its contents. Every boxer aspires to have that presence.
5)Chin and Heart. Better chin than Louis. Bigger heart than Tyson...Ali was a true was a superhero in there! Finishing fights against guys like Kenny Norton and Joe FrAZIER WITH A BADLY BROKEN JAW, TAKING EIGHT ROUNDS OF ABUSE FROM YOUNG gEORGE fOREMAN...gETTING UP FROM cOOPERS LEFT HOOK...Getting up from Fraziers hook in 1971. Refusing to go down against Frazier in Manilla, staying upright against Holmes in the twilight of his career...
I attempted to start this analysis with a clear mind and unclouded judgement, but when one begins to examine the career of Ali, it is impossible not to be swayed by the man's brilliance. He was simply unbelievable and unquestionably the greatest heavyweight of all time in my mind.
1. Louis - 25 successful title defensesQuote:
Originally Posted by Master
2. Marciano - UNDEFEATED...he fought everyone out there in the division and battered them
3. Ali - give me a stat....just give me TANGIBLE evidence that he's the best, you can't he talked himself to #1. Thanks to the Vietnam issue he has this aura around him and it's complete bullcrap he was a great fighter but NEVER the greatest
Don't like it, tough shit
No other fighter knew their range better than Joe Louis, he never over extended himself he never lept it he stalked and he threw quick percise punches. That right cross would be the end of Tyson
Stats for Muhammad?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
He beat Sonny Liston, He beat Floyd Patterson, He beat Joe Frazier, He beat Kenny Norton, He beat George Foreman....
and what????
Marciano beat Charles and Walcott as his crowning glories? (altho comprohensively outboxed in both fights.)
Louis beat Schmeling at his second attempt.(only after his defensive weaknesses were horribly exposed in their first meeting.)
I am saying there is nothing tangible about Ali's greatness....he holds no records...he was beaten.
Why does ALI get credit for decision wins and Rocky gets nothing for KO wins???
Joe Louis looked past Max in the first match, and after that loss in 1936 he didn't lose again until 1950!!!
But Ali didn't go to Vietnam so let's all go ape shit over him "taking a stand".....Joe Louis took a stand but no one gives a shit about that anymore.
Everyone can talk up Ali all they want to but all I have to say is he's #3 and no higher on my list forever and ever AMEN there will be no changes made to it
Thinking like that isn't exactly ideal tho Lyle, whats to say that Rocky Louis won't come along next year and be better than all of them? Will you refuse to change your mind then too?
You've heard the cliche: Boxing's not a sprint, it's a marathon?
Well in my view it's neither. In fact it's more like a Tri-athalon, the best is decided not by who is great in one single capacity, but by who manages to be above average in a number of different elements of the game.
In my view Ali was best because of his diversity, adaptability and mentality. He was not one set fighting style he could change alter and adjust as a fight wore on. The same cannot be said for Marciano and Louis as they had one gear, forward.
And Ali actually has something that neither Louis or Marciano can touch...
Have you forgotten about his gold medal?
Well to be better than Rocky and Louis you have to defend your title a bunch of times and not get beaten during your reign as champion.....when I say they are THE GREATEST I have my reasons.
The Olympic games are rubbish, as pro fighters Rocky and Louis were better, ask Roy Jones Jr what he thinks about the Olympics.
Being able to win all the time with "one gear" is pretty fucking impressive
The Olympic Games are Rubbish :tumbleweed:
I really can't believe you typed that Lyle. I really can't believe that.
You no that Roy has a grudge as he was robbed of his gold medal. You think that Roy would have trained that hard if he really didn't care about it? Would he still be bitter if he didn't care about it
Well to be better than Rocky and Louis you have to defend your title a bunch of times and not get beaten during your reign as champion.....when I say they are THE GREATEST I have my reasons.
Well Ali did defend a bunch of times ???
He was also stripped of his title and he forged a succesful comeback to regain the title!
One gear may have been enough in their era's but in Ali's era, (in which the best heavyweight competition of all time was present,) the one true champion needed several gears.
You mean like Sven Ottke?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
....but Svenn didn't fight everyone in his division when he was "champ"
Louis did and Marciano did....they ducked NO ONE
let's go brother what else do you have for me???
They didn duck nobody...
But ur duckin me :)LoL
If we're talking about the greatest AMATEUR boxers Ali isn't in the top spot in that either....Stevenson and Savon might have an argument thereQuote:
Originally Posted by hitmandonny
The true champions force their will on a fight until it is won, they do not resort to piddly mind games and name calling.
Louis and Marciano had iron wills and they would never give in...someone could outbox them for 14 rounds and 2 minutes and still lose by KO.
And there is another thing which might knock Ali down a peg in my eyes is the fact everyone thinks he's such a gracious kind person BULLSHIT you cannot champion a cause like CIVIL RIGHTS and then use racial slurs to mentally shake your opponents. Ali was a great fighter but in no way was he a great person.
What you're basically saying about Ali is that the ERA made him great and not his successes alone.
Don't hold Joe Louis' and Rocky Marciano's ERAs over their careers they did the best they could and they were better than Ali in a result oriented review of their careers
I'll pretend i never heard that because you may of meant something else but if you were just comparing Ottke to Louis and Marciano then im speechless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bomp
Svenn didn't lose at all but Svenn also didn't fight anyone of note in an age where 160-175 were DEEP with talent.
So if you honestly want to compare Joe Louis and Rocky Marciano to Svenn Ottke then tell me who Joe and Rocky ducked because there is quite a long list for Svenn
If we're talking about the greatest AMATEUR boxers Ali isn't in the top spot in that either....Stevenson and Savon might have an argument there
The true champions force their will on a fight until it is won, they do not resort to piddly mind games and name calling.
Louis and Marciano had iron wills and they would never give in...someone could outbox them for 14 rounds and 2 minutes and still lose by KO.
And there is another thing which might knock Ali down a peg in my eyes is the fact everyone thinks he's such a gracious kind person BULLSHIT you cannot champion a cause like CIVIL RIGHTS and then use racial slurs to mentally shake your opponents. Ali was a great fighter but in no way was he a great person.
What you're basically saying about Ali is that the ERA made him great and not his successes alone.
Don't hold Joe Louis' and Rocky Marciano's ERAs over their careers they did the best they could and they were better than Ali in a result oriented review of their careers
I'm really considering dropping this debate with you as you seem to be letting personal views and opinions cloud your boxing knowledge.
The era did make him great. The 60's and 70's were a wonderful couple of decades for the heavyweight division with a number of legitimately great fighters. Ali beat the cream of the crop in that era.....
Would Marciano have done the same? Would he have survived against Foreman???
He outboxed Liston....Would Louis have done the same?
In short I don't think so, I feel Ali would have only been consider greater had he fought Marciano and Louis.
Just being ironic. I mentioned in another Tyson thread that people decide the criteria by which they decide who is the best in history to suit their favourite fighters.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
Then why should Ali's ERA be held against him? It's not HIS fault he fought in an ERA where his opponents were better than the opponents in previous ERA's.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
It's not Ali's era that's held against him....it's Louis' and Marciano's that are held against them!
You cannot drop fighters here and there to try and prove a point...how did Louis and Marciano do in their eras which were good enough to produce some big time matches: Schmelling, Charles, Walcott, Moore, Layne, Baer, and so on and so forth.
Keep arguing my position will not change. And yeah maybe I do let some personal stuff in my opinion but I don't let it affect how great a boxer I think anyone is. I disagree 100% with Ali's politics but it doesn't make him a better or worse boxer than anyone else.
All I am saying is Louis and Marciano own some pretty big records and what Ali did just doesn't compete with those.....IN MY OPINION.
I know what you mean, I'm not trying to change your mind, I rate all three just as high as each other. I'm just pointing out the irony in your posts. By your reckoning, Ali would have left a greater legacy had he not come back from exile, he beat all there was to beat before then, with as many defences as Rocky (I believe, haven't checked precisely), and would have retired undefeated as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle
But I do agree with you exactly that a boxers' position in history should be determined by what they achieved in their time, rather than some mythical match ups between them. IMO, Tyson would beat both Rocky and Joe if you were to pluck them out of their time with a time machine and stick them, as they were exactly, in the eighties.
However such a statement is null and void since a much more justified comparison would be if they were bought up in each others respective era's, and what they would achieve. Rocky and Joe would most likely be bigger than Mike if Mike had been born in their times, and they also showed a hell of a lot more mental strength and determination, which they would have had regardless of when they were born. To put it simply, they were better CHAMPIONS, and the top of their era's, just as Ali and Dempsey and Johnson were top of their era's.