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My Updated All-Time P4P List
Expect mistakes beacuse this was put together very quickly
1. Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Harry Greb
4. Muhammad Ali
5. Joe Louis
6. Sam Langford
7. Benny Leonard
8. Willie Pep
9. Roberto Duran
10. Sandy Saddler
11. Joe Gans
12. Ezzard Charles
13. Ray Leonard
14. Eder Jofre
15. Jimmy Wilde
16. Pernell Whitaker
17. Archie Moore
18. Marvin Hagler
19. Barney Ross
20. Tony Canzoneri
21. Carlos Monzon
22. Ike Williams
23. Mickey Walker
24. Julio Cesar Chavez
25. Gene Tunney
26. Stanley Ketchal
27. Jack Dempsey
28. Alexis Arguello
29. Aaron Pryor
30. Jack Johnson
31. Emile Griffith
32. Barbados Joe Walcott
33. George Foreman
34. Roy Jones
35. Marcel Cerdan
36. Jim McLarnin
37. Salvador Sanchez
38. Fighting Harada
39. Thomas Hearns
40. Larry Holmes
41. Carlos Ortiz
42. Kid Gavilan
43. Evander Holyfield
44. Azumah Nelson
45. Carlos Zarate
46. Bob Fitzsimmons
47. Charley Burley
48. Billy Conn
49. Rocky Marciano
50. Jake LaMotta
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Re: My Updated All-Time P4P List
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugar_Shaw
Expect mistakes beacuse this was put together very quickly
1. Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Harry Greb
4. Muhammad Ali
5. Joe Louis
6. Sam Langford
7. Benny Leonard
8. Willie Pep
9. Roberto Duran
10. Sandy Saddler
11. Joe Gans
12. Ezzard Charles
13. Ray Leonard
14. Eder Jofre
15. Jimmy Wilde
16. Pernell Whitaker
17. Archie Moore
18. Marvin Hagler
19. Barney Ross
20. Tony Canzoneri
21. Carlos Monzon
22. Ike Williams
23. Mickey Walker
24. Julio Cesar Chavez
25. Gene Tunney
26. Stanley Ketchal
27. Jack Dempsey
28. Alexis Arguello
29. Aaron Pryor
30. Jack Johnson
31. Emile Griffith
32. Barbados Joe Walcott
33. George Foreman
34. Roy Jones
35. Marcel Cerdan
36. Jim McLarnin
37. Salvador Sanchez
38. Fighting Harada
39. Thomas Hearns
40. Larry Holmes
41. Carlos Ortiz
42. Kid Gavilan
43. Evander Holyfield
44. Azumah Nelson
45. Carlos Zarate
46. Bob Fitzsimmons
47. Charley Burley
48. Billy Conn
49. Rocky Marciano
50. Jake LaMotta
Your top 10 looks ok i wouldn't have Sandy Saddler in my top 10 i think Marciano is way too low and Dempsey is too high and your others i wouldn't agree with either but its hard to do top 50 so i'll give you :coolclick: for your effort i have only managed top 20 list top 50 is too hard for me too many choices.
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Re: My Updated All-Time P4P List
MARCIANO'S ERA WASN'T THE BEST SO I find it hard to rate him Top 25. Saddler beat Pep 4 ( i think) times and was a great featherweight, I think he deserves top 10 status.
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Re: My Updated All-Time P4P List
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugar_Shaw
MARCIANO'S ERA WASN'T THE BEST SO I find it hard to rate him Top 25. Saddler beat Pep 4 ( i think) times and was a great featherweight, I think he deserves top 10 status.
But was Dempsey's era really any better ?? who did he beat except Jess Willard and Tommy Gibbons and few other decent hws like Georges Carpentier, Jack Sharkey,
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Re: My Updated All-Time P4P List
I would switch no.4 and 5
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Re: My Updated All-Time P4P List
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugar_Shaw
MARCIANO'S ERA WASN'T THE BEST SO I find it hard to rate him Top 25. Saddler beat Pep 4 ( i think) times and was a great featherweight, I think he deserves top 10 status.
But was Dempsey's era really any better ?? who did he beat except Jess Willard and Tommy Gibbons and few other decent hws like Georges Carpentier, Jack Sharkey,
Willard beat (however controversially) Jack Johnson. Sharkey, Gibbons and Carpentier are all good fighters. I rate all 3 of them better than Roland La Starza who until he was TKo'd was giving Marciano lots of trouble, in fact, judge Harold Barnes had it 5-5 in rounds at the time of the stoppage. Jersey Joe Walcott who is far from the greatest heavyweight was beating Marciano soundly for a long time in their fight. I'm sorry but Rocky is very overrated in my opinion because of THAT record.
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Re: My Updated All-Time P4P List
Although I would never try and criticize an ATG P4P list just because of its subjective nature and the fact that there is no such thing as an accurate list. I am curious as to why you would have Carlos Zerate there and no Wilfredo Gomes.
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Re: My Updated All-Time P4P List
I refuse to acknowledge any P4P list that does include Ricardo Lopez in it. It's a disgrace that he doesn't the recognition he deserves.
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Re: My Updated All-Time P4P List
Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent Demise
I refuse to acknowledge any P4P list that does include Ricardo Lopez in it. It's a disgrace that he doesn't the recognition he deserves.
I didn't even notice he wasn't on it for certain 100 percent he deserves to be on it the man retired undefeated and that one draw on his record was bogus draw Lopez is one of the most skilled fighters i've ever seen.
Actually i would say he is the 2nd most skilled Mexican fighter since Salvador Sanchez.
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Re: My Updated All-Time P4P List
The biggest mistake I see on that list is that you have Evander Holyfield on there.
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Re: My Updated All-Time P4P List
carmen basilio
ricardo lopez
joe brown (im bias)
ray leonard
Pascual perez
Mike acey (lol)
Bernarb hopkins
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Re: My Updated All-Time P4P List
I have learned my lesson on commenting on someone elses P4P list or making my own...It is almost surley to end in arguement....With someone or another....
CC Sugar for making a list...A few things obviously would be changed around depending on opinion but a fine list all in all
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Re: My Updated All-Time P4P List
Duilio Loi should be on there. Top 20 p4p easily.
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Re: My Updated All-Time P4P List
I can't believe Casamayor is also not on the list
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Re: My Updated All-Time P4P List
You have Holyfield on there, but not Floyd Mayweather??
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Re: My Updated All-Time P4P List
I applaud you Sugar for taking the time to make a P4P list especially top 50.
As pointed by VD, theres no 'Finito' on there that just feels like a kick in the balls to me when hes overlooked.
Zarate, Fitzsimmons, Larnin, Gans and Pryor all IMO have no business listed in their respective positions you put them. Especially Pryor when you compare his quality of opposition + longevity + career stats like titles and or division he fought in he falls VERY short.
How is Jofre #14 but 'Puas' Olivares is nowhere to be found?
I liked that you included Griffith in your list a bold move that I completely agree with maybe a little high but nonetheless I applaud you for doing so, not many remember or have seen the kind of animal this man was in that ring.
I have about 5 or 6 of his fights, 1 fight I've never seen and I probably wont ever see it thats his final bout against 'Kid' Paret.
All in all Sugar CC#131 on me for taking the time.
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Re: My Updated All-Time P4P List
Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent Demise
I can't believe Casamayor is also not on the list
???
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Re: My Updated All-Time P4P List
:coolclick: for the effort Sugar Shaw. Nobody will agree with anyone else 100% that's the nature of these things but fair play for making the effort and taking the time to do so.
I personally don't claim to be anywhere near of enough an authority to rank all the boxers who ever lived as many I've never even watched fight so kudos for having a go.
@frozensolid_702
Why don't think Holyfield should be there? He's surely one of the top 10 greatest heavies of all time, only Ali, Louis, Foreman, Johnson and maybe Marciano, Dempsey or Lewis rate above him. I'd say he ranks higher than Tyson, Frazier, Tunney, Liston and Patterson and I wouldn't have a problem with any of them being on the list.
As for Floyd, he's still in the prime of his career so his exact position cannot be determined yet. I think current fighters shouldn't be on the list until they have either retired or have effectively reached the summit of their career so that career can properly assessed. Floyds position could be as high as top 5 all time if he beats Mosely, Cotto, Hatton etc or barely in the top 50 if he loses to them.
Evander already a 4 time heavyweight champ has carved an assured place for himself in history irrespective of any future performances so his position can be determined.
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Re: My Updated All-Time P4P List
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
:coolclick: for the effort Sugar Shaw. Nobody will agree with anyone else 100% that's the nature of these things but fair play for making the effort and taking the time to do so.
I personally don't claim to be anywhere near of enough an authority to rank all the boxers who ever lived as many I've never even watched fight so kudos for having a go.
@frozensolid_702
Why don't think Holyfield should be there? He's surely one of the top 10 greatest heavies of all time, only Ali, Louis, Foreman, Johnson and maybe Marciano, Dempsey or Lewis rate above him. I'd say he ranks higher than Tyson, Frazier, Tunney, Liston and Patterson and I wouldn't have a problem with any of them being on the list.
As for Floyd, he's still in the prime of his career so his exact position cannot be determined yet. I think current fighters shouldn't be on the list until they have either retired or have effectively reached the summit of their career so that career can properly assessed. Floyds position could be as high as top 5 all time if he beats Mosely, Cotto, Hatton etc or barely in the top 50 if he loses to them.
Evander already a 4 time heavyweight champ has carved an assured place for himself in history irrespective of any future performances so his position can be determined.
You forgot Holmes he is rated higher than Holyfield ;)
But i agree with the rest.
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Re: My Updated All-Time P4P List
Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMick
I applaud you Sugar for taking the time to make a P4P list especially top 50.
As pointed by VD, theres no 'Finito' on there that just feels like a kick in the balls to me when hes overlooked.
Zarate, Fitzsimmons, Larnin, Gans and Pryor all IMO have no business listed in their respective positions you put them. Especially Pryor when you compare his quality of opposition + longevity + career stats like titles and or division he fought in he falls VERY short.
How is Jofre #14 but 'Puas' Olivares is nowhere to be found?
I liked that you included Griffith in your list a bold move that I completely agree with maybe a little high but nonetheless I applaud you for doing so, not many remember or have seen the kind of animal this man was in that ring.
I have about 5 or 6 of his fights, 1 fight I've never seen and I probably wont ever see it thats his final bout against 'Kid' Paret.
All in all Sugar CC#131 on me for taking the time.
I actually feel bit sorry for Pryor Mick Leonard didn't want anything to do with him he was supposed to fight Ray Boom Boom Mancini but Mancini got upset by Bramble alot of fighters ducked Pryor i agree he is bit overrated but i think he is best Junior Welterweight ever.
I also think Zarate is overrated aswell he had impressive ko record but lets be honest they were against cab drivers ;)
And you know something else Mick i notice when alot of Boxing experts do these lists i think the old fighters get too much credit like from 30s 40s ect and newer fighters like in 80s don't get enough credit.
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Re: My Updated All-Time P4P List
100% agree with Ice. Older fighters get to much credit. Half the people making these silly lists have never even seen Harry Greb or Joe Gans fight. Yet they get put on a list. Great modern day fighters like Floyd Mayweather, Felix Trinidad, and Joel Casamayor get the shaft by not being included in lists. Ridicules.
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Re: My Updated All-Time P4P List
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
I actually feel bit sorry for Pryor Mick Leonard didn't want anything to do with him he was supposed to fight Ray Boom Boom Mancini but Mancini got upset by Bramble alot of fighters ducked Pryor i agree he is bit overrated but i think he is best Junior Welterweight ever.
I understand where you are coming from with Pryor but then you'd have to do the same for everyone else. The thing is you gotta measure them all the same.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
but i think he is best Junior Welterweight ever.
Well to each is own, but I mean an arguement can be made for Tszyu and Cervantes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
I also think Zarate is overrated aswell he had impressive ko record but lets be honest they were against cab drivers ;)
Well for his early fights I would say he was fighting fighters that up and comers fight.
When he beat Martinez for the title Martinez was no push over and Martinez was on a roll defending his title. Having just beat Herrera who had previously beaten him twice if memory serves me right. Not only did Zarate beat Martinez but he KO'd him and Zarate also went on to defend his title I think 9 times and all of those wins also came by KO and these guys were no longer cab drivers as you say these were World Class fighters. Somewhere in there you will find that he fought Alfonso Zamora who many people don't know was in reality a 'Unification' bout BUT the stupid WBC & WBA refused to acknowledge the showdown between these two but people knew who was the man in the Bantam div. once Zarate KO'd Zamora, he became the man there. He then moved up in weight to face Gomez who hit him while he was down and lost.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
And you know something else Mick i notice when alot of Boxing experts do these lists i think the old fighters get too much credit like from 30s 40s ect and newer fighters like in 80s don't get enough credit.
Well ICB, I agree with what your saying in someways but IMO, I always measure todays fighters by the old fighters and take it from there. Sometimes like in the case of let's say Pryor who do you measure him by?
Pinky?
Perkins?
Benitez?
So I personally just look at all the champs that have campaigned there and take it from there.
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Re: My Updated All-Time P4P List
Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMick
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
I actually feel bit sorry for Pryor Mick Leonard didn't want anything to do with him he was supposed to fight Ray Boom Boom Mancini but Mancini got upset by Bramble alot of fighters ducked Pryor i agree he is bit overrated but i think he is best Junior Welterweight ever.
I understand where you are coming from with Pryor but then you'd have to do the same for everyone else. The thing is you gotta measure them all the same.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
but i think he is best Junior Welterweight ever.
Well to each is own, but I mean an arguement can be made for Tszyu and Cervantes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
I also think Zarate is overrated aswell he had impressive ko record but lets be honest they were against cab drivers ;)
Well for his early fights I would say he was fighting fighters that up and comers fight.
When he beat Martinez for the title Martinez was no push over and Martinez was on a roll defending his title. Having just beat Herrera who had previously beaten him twice if memory serves me right. Not only did Zarate beat Martinez but he KO'd him and Zarate also went on to defend his title I think 9 times and all of those wins also came by KO and these guys were no longer cab drivers as you say these were World Class fighters. Somewhere in there you will find that he fought Alfonso Zamora who many people don't know was in reality a 'Unification' bout BUT the stupid WBC & WBA refused to acknowledge the showdown between these two but people knew who was the man in the Bantam div. once Zarate KO'd Zamora, he became the man there. He then moved up in weight to face Gomez who hit him while he was down and lost.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
And you know something else Mick i notice when alot of Boxing experts do these lists i think the old fighters get too much credit like from 30s 40s ect and newer fighters like in 80s don't get enough credit.
Well ICB, I agree with what your saying in someways but IMO, I always measure todays fighters by the old fighters and take it from there. Sometimes like in the case of let's say Pryor who do you measure him by?
Pinky?
Perkins?
Benitez?
So I personally just look at all the champs that have campaigned there and take it from there.
I understand where you are coming from with Pryor but then you'd have to do the same for everyone else. The thing is you gotta measure them all the same.
I understand what your saying but i still think its unfair how all the big fighters avoided him and i consider him best Junior Welterweight Tszyu wouldn't of beat him he hated pressure fighters who didn't allow him to get distance aka Vince Phillips aka Hatton.
Well for his early fights I would say he was fighting fighters that up and comers fight.
When he beat Martinez for the title Martinez was no push over and Martinez was on a roll defending his title. Having just beat Herrera who had previously beaten him twice if memory serves me right. Not only did Zarate beat Martinez but he KO'd him and Zarate also went on to defend his title I think 9 times and all of those wins also came by KO and these guys were no longer cab drivers as you say these were World Class fighters. Somewhere in there you will find that he fought Alfonso Zamora who many people don't know was in reality a 'Unification' bout BUT the stupid WBC & WBA refused to acknowledge the showdown between these two but people knew who was the man in the Bantam div. once Zarate KO'd Zamora, he became the man there. He then moved up in weight to face Gomez who hit him while he was down and lost.
Im not saying he beat all cab drivers but alot of his kos did come from cab drivers he beat few goodish opposition but when he come up against the elite of the elite he failed im not saying thats bad thing losing to people like Wilfredo Gomez Daniel Zaragoza Jeff Fenech is nothing to be ashamed of but i still feel Zarate is bit overrated he never beat any of the top boys and his best wins were against goodish opposition.
Well ICB, I agree with what your saying in someways but IMO, I always measure todays fighters by the old fighters and take it from there. Sometimes like in the case of let's say Pryor who do you measure him by?
What i mean is like VD made good point people like Greb and ect people have never seen fight but he is top ten of there lists and i feel the newer fighters don't get a fair share slice.
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Re: My Updated All-Time P4P List
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
I understand what your saying but i still think its unfair how all the big fighters avoided him and i consider him best Junior Welterweight Tszyu wouldn't of beat him he hated pressure fighters who didn't allow him to get distance aka Vince Phillips aka Hatton.
Right I see your point, but I mean check this out Mancini didn't avoid him he just lost the set up fight.
SRL, let's just say he would have beaten SRL how much would that have helped him?
I mean SRL beat Hagler, Hearns & Duran and his legacy is still questioned and his place in history is still questioned.
About Tszyu vs. Pryor well who knows but I know it would have been one helluva fight.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
Im not saying he beat all cab drivers but alot of his kos did come from cab drivers he beat few goodish opposition but when he come up against the elite of the elite he failed im not saying thats bad thing losing to people like Wilfredo Gomez Daniel Zaragoza Jeff Fenech is nothing to be ashamed of but i still feel Zarate is bit overrated he never beat any of the top boys and his best wins were against goodish opposition.
But see that's the thing he kept KOing his opponents even after the cab drivers ended and World Class opposition began, thats why his considered amongst the P4P hardest hitters. I'll give you the Gomez lost but come on it was a known fact that Zarate was fighting more to just earn a living rather then campaign to get a title shot. The oppourtunities presented themselves to fight for big money and a title and he went for it well past his best days but he went for it.
I agree on the overrated but I also think your slightly cutting him short a bit on his career.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
What i mean is like VD made good point people like Greb and ect people have never seen fight but he is top ten of there lists and i feel the newer fighters don't get a fair share slice.
I agree, that's why I only comment or put my two cents on fighters I have seen.
If I haven't seen them fight then theres nothing for me to comment on or if I don't know their career and I have no idea as to what they accomplished I stay away from that.
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Re: My Updated All-Time P4P List
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMick
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
I actually feel bit sorry for Pryor Mick Leonard didn't want anything to do with him he was supposed to fight Ray Boom Boom Mancini but Mancini got upset by Bramble alot of fighters ducked Pryor i agree he is bit overrated but i think he is best Junior Welterweight ever.
I understand where you are coming from with Pryor but then you'd have to do the same for everyone else. The thing is you gotta measure them all the same.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
but i think he is best Junior Welterweight ever.
Well to each is own, but I mean an arguement can be made for Tszyu and Cervantes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
I also think Zarate is overrated aswell he had impressive ko record but lets be honest they were against cab drivers ;)
Well for his early fights I would say he was fighting fighters that up and comers fight.
When he beat Martinez for the title Martinez was no push over and Martinez was on a roll defending his title. Having just beat Herrera who had previously beaten him twice if memory serves me right. Not only did Zarate beat Martinez but he KO'd him and Zarate also went on to defend his title I think 9 times and all of those wins also came by KO and these guys were no longer cab drivers as you say these were World Class fighters. Somewhere in there you will find that he fought Alfonso Zamora who many people don't know was in reality a 'Unification' bout BUT the stupid WBC & WBA refused to acknowledge the showdown between these two but people knew who was the man in the Bantam div. once Zarate KO'd Zamora, he became the man there. He then moved up in weight to face Gomez who hit him while he was down and lost.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
And you know something else Mick i notice when alot of Boxing experts do these lists i think the old fighters get too much credit like from 30s 40s ect and newer fighters like in 80s don't get enough credit.
Well ICB, I agree with what your saying in someways but IMO, I always measure todays fighters by the old fighters and take it from there. Sometimes like in the case of let's say Pryor who do you measure him by?
Pinky?
Perkins?
Benitez?
So I personally just look at all the champs that have campaigned there and take it from there.
I understand where you are coming from with Pryor but then you'd have to do the same for everyone else. The thing is you gotta measure them all the same.
I understand what your saying but i still think its unfair how all the big fighters avoided him and i consider him best Junior Welterweight Tszyu wouldn't of beat him he hated pressure fighters who didn't allow him to get distance aka Vince Phillips aka Hatton.
Well for his early fights I would say he was fighting fighters that up and comers fight.
When he beat Martinez for the title Martinez was no push over and Martinez was on a roll defending his title. Having just beat Herrera who had previously beaten him twice if memory serves me right. Not only did Zarate beat Martinez but he KO'd him and Zarate also went on to defend his title I think 9 times and all of those wins also came by KO and these guys were no longer cab drivers as you say these were World Class fighters. Somewhere in there you will find that he fought Alfonso Zamora who many people don't know was in reality a 'Unification' bout BUT the stupid WBC & WBA refused to acknowledge the showdown between these two but people knew who was the man in the Bantam div. once Zarate KO'd Zamora, he became the man there. He then moved up in weight to face Gomez who hit him while he was down and lost.
Im not saying he beat all cab drivers but alot of his kos did come from cab drivers he beat few goodish opposition but when he come up against the elite of the elite he failed im not saying thats bad thing losing to people like Wilfredo Gomez Daniel Zaragoza Jeff Fenech is nothing to be ashamed of but i still feel Zarate is bit overrated he never beat any of the top boys and his best wins were against goodish opposition.
Well ICB, I agree with what your saying in someways but IMO, I always measure todays fighters by the old fighters and take it from there. Sometimes like in the case of let's say Pryor who do you measure him by?
What i mean is like VD made good point people like Greb and ect people have never seen fight but he is top ten of there lists and i feel the newer fighters don't get a fair share slice.
1 ,Alberto davila Was/Is No "cab-briver".ask zamora & L.pintor.Just because You Have Not Seen A Fighter by No Means They Were Not As Great As They really were...W.T.F.Belive It Or Not ?Read A Book,Watch some Tapes.With REspect Of course,Harry greb Was A Savage and I Trust The Scribes,historians,and fans before ME For some insight.Greb is hard to nail down on tape though=h.ls only but CASAMOYOR top 50 all time.Newbies go to the back of the line so 20 or 30 yrs. U can make the same points.
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Re: My Updated All-Time P4P List
I agree with the people here... Older fighters get too much credit. I mean you don't have fighters like Oscar de la hoya I mean the guy is a six divison champ... noone has ever done that.. where is he on your list? El Finito lopez? 49. Rocky Marciano ? haha... ::** Think Trinidad should be there. After all you got pernell so high up there.
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Re: My Updated All-Time P4P List
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Spicoli Surfs In 'Nawlins
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMick
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
I actually feel bit sorry for Pryor Mick Leonard didn't want anything to do with him he was supposed to fight Ray Boom Boom Mancini but Mancini got upset by Bramble alot of fighters ducked Pryor i agree he is bit overrated but i think he is best Junior Welterweight ever.
I understand where you are coming from with Pryor but then you'd have to do the same for everyone else. The thing is you gotta measure them all the same.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
but i think he is best Junior Welterweight ever.
Well to each is own, but I mean an arguement can be made for Tszyu and Cervantes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
I also think Zarate is overrated aswell he had impressive ko record but lets be honest they were against cab drivers ;)
Well for his early fights I would say he was fighting fighters that up and comers fight.
When he beat Martinez for the title Martinez was no push over and Martinez was on a roll defending his title. Having just beat Herrera who had previously beaten him twice if memory serves me right. Not only did Zarate beat Martinez but he KO'd him and Zarate also went on to defend his title I think 9 times and all of those wins also came by KO and these guys were no longer cab drivers as you say these were World Class fighters. Somewhere in there you will find that he fought Alfonso Zamora who many people don't know was in reality a 'Unification' bout BUT the stupid WBC & WBA refused to acknowledge the showdown between these two but people knew who was the man in the Bantam div. once Zarate KO'd Zamora, he became the man there. He then moved up in weight to face Gomez who hit him while he was down and lost.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
And you know something else Mick i notice when alot of Boxing experts do these lists i think the old fighters get too much credit like from 30s 40s ect and newer fighters like in 80s don't get enough credit.
Well ICB, I agree with what your saying in someways but IMO, I always measure todays fighters by the old fighters and take it from there. Sometimes like in the case of let's say Pryor who do you measure him by?
Pinky?
Perkins?
Benitez?
So I personally just look at all the champs that have campaigned there and take it from there.
I understand where you are coming from with Pryor but then you'd have to do the same for everyone else. The thing is you gotta measure them all the same.
I understand what your saying but i still think its unfair how all the big fighters avoided him and i consider him best Junior Welterweight Tszyu wouldn't of beat him he hated pressure fighters who didn't allow him to get distance aka Vince Phillips aka Hatton.
Well for his early fights I would say he was fighting fighters that up and comers fight.
When he beat Martinez for the title Martinez was no push over and Martinez was on a roll defending his title. Having just beat Herrera who had previously beaten him twice if memory serves me right. Not only did Zarate beat Martinez but he KO'd him and Zarate also went on to defend his title I think 9 times and all of those wins also came by KO and these guys were no longer cab drivers as you say these were World Class fighters. Somewhere in there you will find that he fought Alfonso Zamora who many people don't know was in reality a 'Unification' bout BUT the stupid WBC & WBA refused to acknowledge the showdown between these two but people knew who was the man in the Bantam div. once Zarate KO'd Zamora, he became the man there. He then moved up in weight to face Gomez who hit him while he was down and lost.
Im not saying he beat all cab drivers but alot of his kos did come from cab drivers he beat few goodish opposition but when he come up against the elite of the elite he failed im not saying thats bad thing losing to people like Wilfredo Gomez Daniel Zaragoza Jeff Fenech is nothing to be ashamed of but i still feel Zarate is bit overrated he never beat any of the top boys and his best wins were against goodish opposition.
Well ICB, I agree with what your saying in someways but IMO, I always measure todays fighters by the old fighters and take it from there. Sometimes like in the case of let's say Pryor who do you measure him by?
What i mean is like VD made good point people like Greb and ect people have never seen fight but he is top ten of there lists and i feel the newer fighters don't get a fair share slice.
1 ,Alberto Davila Was/Is No "cab-briver".ask zamora & L.pintor.Just because You Have Not Seen A Fighter by No Means They Were Not As Great As They really were...W.T.F.Belive It Or Not ?Read A Book,Watch some Tapes.With REspect Of course,Harry greb Was A Savage and I Trust The Scribes,historians,and fans before ME For some insight.Greb is hard to nail down on tape though=h.ls only but CASAMOYOR top 50 all time.Newbies go to the back of the line so 20 or 30 yrs. U can make the same points.
You totally misread what i said and put words into my mouth i said he beat alot of cab drivers i didn't say Alberto was cab driver or Pintor and he lost to Pintor so whats your point ?? nor did i say Zamora was a cab driver read what i said and i have actually watched Zarate's fights and know quite a bit about his career so again don't assume i haven't seen a fighter because you disagree with me.
You can trust historians all you want but if you haven't seen a fighter like Greb or ect you shouldn't just go along with it because your going along with someone else and not your own knowledge or experience of watching him fight.
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Re: My Updated All-Time P4P List
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Spicoli Surfs In 'Nawlins
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMick
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
I actually feel bit sorry for Pryor Mick Leonard didn't want anything to do with him he was supposed to fight Ray Boom Boom Mancini but Mancini got upset by Bramble alot of fighters ducked Pryor i agree he is bit overrated but i think he is best Junior Welterweight ever.
I understand where you are coming from with Pryor but then you'd have to do the same for everyone else. The thing is you gotta measure them all the same.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
but i think he is best Junior Welterweight ever.
Well to each is own, but I mean an arguement can be made for Tszyu and Cervantes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
I also think Zarate is overrated aswell he had impressive ko record but lets be honest they were against cab drivers ;)
Well for his early fights I would say he was fighting fighters that up and comers fight.
When he beat Martinez for the title Martinez was no push over and Martinez was on a roll defending his title. Having just beat Herrera who had previously beaten him twice if memory serves me right. Not only did Zarate beat Martinez but he KO'd him and Zarate also went on to defend his title I think 9 times and all of those wins also came by KO and these guys were no longer cab drivers as you say these were World Class fighters. Somewhere in there you will find that he fought Alfonso Zamora who many people don't know was in reality a 'Unification' bout BUT the stupid WBC & WBA refused to acknowledge the showdown between these two but people knew who was the man in the Bantam div. once Zarate KO'd Zamora, he became the man there. He then moved up in weight to face Gomez who hit him while he was down and lost.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
And you know something else Mick i notice when alot of Boxing experts do these lists i think the old fighters get too much credit like from 30s 40s ect and newer fighters like in 80s don't get enough credit.
Well ICB, I agree with what your saying in someways but IMO, I always measure todays fighters by the old fighters and take it from there. Sometimes like in the case of let's say Pryor who do you measure him by?
Pinky?
Perkins?
Benitez?
So I personally just look at all the champs that have campaigned there and take it from there.
I understand where you are coming from with Pryor but then you'd have to do the same for everyone else. The thing is you gotta measure them all the same.
I understand what your saying but i still think its unfair how all the big fighters avoided him and i consider him best Junior Welterweight Tszyu wouldn't of beat him he hated pressure fighters who didn't allow him to get distance aka Vince Phillips aka Hatton.
Well for his early fights I would say he was fighting fighters that up and comers fight.
When he beat Martinez for the title Martinez was no push over and Martinez was on a roll defending his title. Having just beat Herrera who had previously beaten him twice if memory serves me right. Not only did Zarate beat Martinez but he KO'd him and Zarate also went on to defend his title I think 9 times and all of those wins also came by KO and these guys were no longer cab drivers as you say these were World Class fighters. Somewhere in there you will find that he fought Alfonso Zamora who many people don't know was in reality a 'Unification' bout BUT the stupid WBC & WBA refused to acknowledge the showdown between these two but people knew who was the man in the Bantam div. once Zarate KO'd Zamora, he became the man there. He then moved up in weight to face Gomez who hit him while he was down and lost.
Im not saying he beat all cab drivers but alot of his kos did come from cab drivers he beat few goodish opposition but when he come up against the elite of the elite he failed im not saying thats bad thing losing to people like Wilfredo Gomez Daniel Zaragoza Jeff Fenech is nothing to be ashamed of but i still feel Zarate is bit overrated he never beat any of the top boys and his best wins were against goodish opposition.
Well ICB, I agree with what your saying in someways but IMO, I always measure todays fighters by the old fighters and take it from there. Sometimes like in the case of let's say Pryor who do you measure him by?
What i mean is like VD made good point people like Greb and ect people have never seen fight but he is top ten of there lists and i feel the newer fighters don't get a fair share slice.
1 ,Alberto davila Was/Is No "cab-briver".ask zamora & L.pintor.Just because You Have Not Seen A Fighter by No Means They Were Not As Great As They really were...W.T.F.Belive It Or Not ?Read A Book,Watch some Tapes.With REspect Of course,Harry greb Was A Savage and I Trust The Scribes,historians,and fans before ME For some insight.Greb is hard to nail down on tape though=h.ls only but CASAMOYOR top 50 all time.Newbies go to the back of the line so 20 or 30 yrs. U can make the same points.
I guess if scribes, historians and fans before you told you that Greb was God. You probably would believe it, huh? I go with what I see and make my own opinion. I don't follow the leader and go by somebody else opinion.
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Re: My Updated All-Time P4P List
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
:coolclick: for the effort Sugar Shaw. Nobody will agree with anyone else 100% that's the nature of these things but fair play for making the effort and taking the time to do so.
I personally don't claim to be anywhere near of enough an authority to rank all the boxers who ever lived as many I've never even watched fight so kudos for having a go.
@frozensolid_702
Why don't think Holyfield should be there? He's surely one of the top 10 greatest heavies of all time, only Ali, Louis, Foreman, Johnson and maybe Marciano, Dempsey or Lewis rate above him. I'd say he ranks higher than Tyson, Frazier, Tunney, Liston and Patterson and I wouldn't have a problem with any of them being on the list.
As for Floyd, he's still in the prime of his career so his exact position cannot be determined yet. I think current fighters shouldn't be on the list until they have either retired or have effectively reached the summit of their career so that career can properly assessed. Floyds position could be as high as top 5 all time if he beats Mosely, Cotto, Hatton etc or barely in the top 50 if he loses to them.
Evander already a 4 time heavyweight champ has carved an assured place for himself in history irrespective of any future performances so his position can be determined.
You forgot Holmes he is rated higher than Holyfield ;)
But i agree with the rest.
ah :coolclick: my bad you are right, Holmes is top 5 all time heavy for sure ;)
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Re: My Updated All-Time P4P List
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
:coolclick: for the effort Sugar Shaw. Nobody will agree with anyone else 100% that's the nature of these things but fair play for making the effort and taking the time to do so.
I personally don't claim to be anywhere near of enough an authority to rank all the boxers who ever lived as many I've never even watched fight so kudos for having a go.
@frozensolid_702
Why don't think Holyfield should be there? He's surely one of the top 10 greatest heavies of all time, only Ali, Louis, Foreman, Johnson and maybe Marciano, Dempsey or Lewis rate above him. I'd say he ranks higher than Tyson, Frazier, Tunney, Liston and Patterson and I wouldn't have a problem with any of them being on the list.
As for Floyd, he's still in the prime of his career so his exact position cannot be determined yet. I think current fighters shouldn't be on the list until they have either retired or have effectively reached the summit of their career so that career can properly assessed. Floyds position could be as high as top 5 all time if he beats Mosely, Cotto, Hatton etc or barely in the top 50 if he loses to them.
Evander already a 4 time heavyweight champ has carved an assured place for himself in history irrespective of any future performances so his position can be determined.
You forgot Holmes he is rated higher than Holyfield ;)
But i agree with the rest.
ah :coolclick: my bad you are right, Holmes is top 5 all time heavy for sure ;)
Never mind mate you can't remember everyone :coolclick: back.
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Re: My Updated All-Time P4P List
Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent Demise
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Spicoli Surfs In 'Nawlins
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMick
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
I actually feel bit sorry for Pryor Mick Leonard didn't want anything to do with him he was supposed to fight Ray Boom Boom Mancini but Mancini got upset by Bramble alot of fighters ducked Pryor i agree he is bit overrated but i think he is best Junior Welterweight ever.
I understand where you are coming from with Pryor but then you'd have to do the same for everyone else. The thing is you gotta measure them all the same.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
but i think he is best Junior Welterweight ever.
Well to each is own, but I mean an arguement can be made for Tszyu and Cervantes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
I also think Zarate is overrated aswell he had impressive ko record but lets be honest they were against cab drivers ;)
Well for his early fights I would say he was fighting fighters that up and comers fight.
When he beat Martinez for the title Martinez was no push over and Martinez was on a roll defending his title. Having just beat Herrera who had previously beaten him twice if memory serves me right. Not only did Zarate beat Martinez but he KO'd him and Zarate also went on to defend his title I think 9 times and all of those wins also came by KO and these guys were no longer cab drivers as you say these were World Class fighters. Somewhere in there you will find that he fought Alfonso Zamora who many people don't know was in reality a 'Unification' bout BUT the stupid WBC & WBA refused to acknowledge the showdown between these two but people knew who was the man in the Bantam div. once Zarate KO'd Zamora, he became the man there. He then moved up in weight to face Gomez who hit him while he was down and lost.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
And you know something else Mick i notice when alot of Boxing experts do these lists i think the old fighters get too much credit like from 30s 40s ect and newer fighters like in 80s don't get enough credit.
Well ICB, I agree with what your saying in someways but IMO, I always measure todays fighters by the old fighters and take it from there. Sometimes like in the case of let's say Pryor who do you measure him by?
Pinky?
Perkins?
Benitez?
So I personally just look at all the champs that have campaigned there and take it from there.
I understand where you are coming from with Pryor but then you'd have to do the same for everyone else. The thing is you gotta measure them all the same.
I understand what your saying but i still think its unfair how all the big fighters avoided him and i consider him best Junior Welterweight Tszyu wouldn't of beat him he hated pressure fighters who didn't allow him to get distance aka Vince Phillips aka Hatton.
Well for his early fights I would say he was fighting fighters that up and comers fight.
When he beat Martinez for the title Martinez was no push over and Martinez was on a roll defending his title. Having just beat Herrera who had previously beaten him twice if memory serves me right. Not only did Zarate beat Martinez but he KO'd him and Zarate also went on to defend his title I think 9 times and all of those wins also came by KO and these guys were no longer cab drivers as you say these were World Class fighters. Somewhere in there you will find that he fought Alfonso Zamora who many people don't know was in reality a 'Unification' bout BUT the stupid WBC & WBA refused to acknowledge the showdown between these two but people knew who was the man in the Bantam div. once Zarate KO'd Zamora, he became the man there. He then moved up in weight to face Gomez who hit him while he was down and lost.
Im not saying he beat all cab drivers but alot of his kos did come from cab drivers he beat few goodish opposition but when he come up against the elite of the elite he failed im not saying thats bad thing losing to people like Wilfredo Gomez Daniel Zaragoza Jeff Fenech is nothing to be ashamed of but i still feel Zarate is bit overrated he never beat any of the top boys and his best wins were against goodish opposition.
Well ICB, I agree with what your saying in someways but IMO, I always measure todays fighters by the old fighters and take it from there. Sometimes like in the case of let's say Pryor who do you measure him by?
What i mean is like VD made good point people like Greb and ect people have never seen fight but he is top ten of there lists and i feel the newer fighters don't get a fair share slice.
1 ,Alberto davila Was/Is No "cab-briver".ask zamora & L.pintor.Just because You Have Not Seen A Fighter by No Means They Were Not As Great As They really were...W.T.F.Belive It Or Not ?Read A Book,Watch some Tapes.With REspect Of course,Harry greb Was A Savage and I Trust The Scribes,historians,and fans before ME For some insight.Greb is hard to nail down on tape though=h.ls only but CASAMOYOR top 50 all time.Newbies go to the back of the line so 20 or 30 yrs. U can make the same points.
I guess if scribes, historians and fans before you told you that Greb was God. You probably would believe it, huh? I go with what I see and make my own opinion. I don't follow the leader and go by somebody else opinion.
Its not your opinion in question,Everyone has one,or ten.facts tend to be so non subjective .Greb Was Good...But He Sure As Shit Was Not God.Its cool to disagree and Im not trying to twist your words.That old school,and i know you this,is due Big Respect.Know & invest in fight history.Years from now todays fighters will be the ones YOU Rant about.
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Re: My Updated All-Time P4P List
1 Sugar Ray Robinson
2 Henary Armstrong
3 Willie Pep
4 Muhammad Ali
5 Roberto Duran
6 Sugar Ray Leonard
7 Pernell Witaker
8 Julio Ceasar Chavez
9 Herry Greb
10 Gene Tunney
There a list that I made probably change it the next time this subject comes up
