i mean many belive hagler beat him and also hearns in the second fight. if he had those 2 losses on his record hw different wud his legacy be??
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i mean many belive hagler beat him and also hearns in the second fight. if he had those 2 losses on his record hw different wud his legacy be??
We could say that about anyone even Sugar Ray Robinson got gift decisions in his career and arguably Ali could have 8 losses on his record Leonard was 3 years ring rust and moved up to fight top 3 Middleweight of all time and won yes it was controversial but he still won by 1 point in my eyes and Hearns draw yes that was a robbery but i like to think Hearns is better over 12 rounds Leonard is better over 15 rounds.Quote:
Originally Posted by pretty boy
But in no way should that make him overrated.
Benitez
Duran
Hearns
Hagler
Enough said.
What i did not like about Ray Leonard is that he only fought Hearns in rematch when he thought he was shot and he ducked Aaron Pryor.
In a word... Yes
But only slightly. He was still great and his victory over Hagler despite the controversy is nothing short of amazing given the circumstances.
I truely believe Hearns would've beaten him at any weight over 147.
yes no doubt under the circumstances he faced against hagler ray did incredibly well 2 pull of the victory, only if the rematch was made that wud have bin incredible!!!!! ::**Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rookie Fan
hearns i believe over 12 rounds wud hav beaten ray both times.and if he had a better chin wud hav beat them allin that era..... oh well sum things were jus not ment 2 b!!!! :)
Let's look at the round robin:
SRL W-4 L-1 D-1
MH W-2 L-1
TH W-1 L-2 D-1
RD W-1 L-4
No, SRL was not overrated.
He could be a total prick but he was definitely not overrated. Sure he was in some very close fights...but he never embarrassed himself and fought/won in one of the best era's in boxing.
you could make a case for pretty much every top 10 all time boxer being overrated to a degree...
I personally don't believe SRL was, he was one of the greatest ever.
:yh no doubt he neva embarrsed himself and always lived up 2 his word!!!! coolclick:Quote:
Originally Posted by zhubin
If you actually see the fights you'll know it should readQuote:
Originally Posted by Ted The Bull
SRL W-2 L-2
MH W-3 L-0
TH W-2 L-2
RD W-1 L-4
No Leonard was not a little overrated. He was a lot overrated
Numbers don't lie. Oh, I'll give you the draw against Hearns, but remember, he also stopped Benitiz and beat some other pretty good fighters.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent Demise
I totally agree those SHOULD be the records, but even if Ray lost to MH and in the second TH fight, beating Benitez, Duran, and most importantly, his first defeat of Hearns makes him no more than somewhat overrated.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent Demise
I don't think he is overrated but i think he knew what he was doing when he avoided Hagler and Hearns until they were ready to be beat and and he ducked the hell out of Aaron Pyror, but hell a lot of fighters choose this same formula to reach the top.
No way. He could have retired before even fighting Hagler and still be a legend. He was an unbelievably talented fighter like him or not.
I'm a huge Hagler fan...HUGE.Quote:
Originally Posted by pretty boy
Honestly...I have never NEVER liked Leonard's persona, but as a fighter he's one hell of an amazing fellar.
I must not listen to too many fight fans...because I have never heard it stated that Hearns won the second fight...NEVER.
Leonard should be respected for his accomplishments...it's just too bad that he kept on fighting past his time.
olympic gold medalist, 6 divison title holder & having one of the best resumes doesn't seem overated to me. sure his win against hagler maybe controversial to some but fighting the best middleweight in history & in a weight divison he didn't belong & after a long layoff does nothing but only establishes his greatness. I believe the man was the smartest boxer ever, his intelligence to carve out a different fightplan with each opponent & his ability to adapt within a fight when things weren't going his way were truly special.
Ive had a detached retina boxed once in five years lets fight Hagler next hes shot ???
Man why is it always ray people say was overrated and never duran hagler or hearns and the secound fight with hearns doesn't really matter who won that to me they were both shot so who cares and hagler thought srl won the fight and trust me alot of people feel the same lets just let leonard be he doesn't need to be in debated he is great and not more overrated then any other great
Well, because people try to make a case that Ray was a top 10 P4P alltime great. We say the second Hearns fights doesn't matter because it doesn't. The same way Tito vs Jones doesn't mean jack. Part of Duran's greatness was his longevity and his quality at so may different weight classes. And you are just wrong to say that Hagler thinks SRL won the fight. Hagler is still bitter about that decision. Most people rate Ray higher than Hearns, as they should. Most people rate rate Hearns just about right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
Ray was a damn good fighter and a GREAT entertainer. He was and is an even better businessman. He ain't overrated on that.
I thought Hagler hung up his gloves after being disgusted at the decision.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
I messed up on that i meant to say i thought srl won my bad i know hagler didn't
I would not say he was over rated, he would dominate his weight class if he was fighting now.
ICB, remember our debate the other night when you said SRL avoided Pryor?
Do you remember I told you let's just say Pryor would have fought SRL and beat him do you really think that would have helped his legacy?
And then I mentioned to you SRL beat Hagler, Hearns, Duran and Benitez but yet people still question his legacy.
Well heres my point exactly in this thread.
i miss guys like leonard hearn and hagler, they all had skills but were willing to brawl for the prize of true greatness. They all mix it up too even when they weren't suppose to be in a weight class they still got it on.
to answer the question, it depends :P
Good point Mick i can't believe people actually think he is overrated yes he didn't have as many fights as Hagler, Hearns ect but he couldn't help that i believe he had an eye injury that he had to have operation on ?? just goes to show you with less fights and being out of the sport a long time and to beat the names and to win world titles in that many weight classes is amazing the only fighter i believe he ducked was Pryor other than that he fought everyone there was to fight no way was he overrated.Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMick
Wasn't proyer in a lower wieght division and ray was still a up and comer and a bit green
SRL had a detached retina and was out for about 3 years or so.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
Well ICB, if I told you I've also read here at Saddos 'Who has Duran beat to be a P4P great?' and also 'Arguello wasn't that great'. :(
Some people just let their imaginations slip a little too far, me thinks.... ;D
If memory serves me right, there was talks of the fight materializing but I'm not 100% sure what went down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
I know SRL commented several times that if Pryor wanted a fight he'd (Pryor) would have to come up in weight to fight cause SRL wasnt going down in weight. Also I just remembered wasn't Pryor rumored to have been having drug problems after his second win to Arguello?
Which I also think is around the time it was rumored to happen.
Speaking of Pryor can some send me a video of him fighting al ways here of him never seen him fight and how good was he i mean i hear about that guy alot ever one says ray ducked him would he really beaten ray and who did pryor beat to make him so good if any one can fill me in i dont know much about him so i would like to be more well informed he seems to be the only one i dont know much of
but i mostly only seem to flow the welterwieghts and the heavyweights that were my knowledge is
All you have to do is go to YouTube.com and type in Aaron Pryor you can find lot's of film on him there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
I know for a fact these fights are there.
vs. Cervantes
vs. Kameda
vs. Thomas Hearns (amateur)
and a couple of highlight videos. ;)
Pryor called him out at a press conference and SRL wanted nothing to do with Pryor and also Pryor used to beat up on Leonard when they used to spar well whatever the reason to why he didn't fight Pryor imo he ducked Pryor i think he was bit unsure of Pryor i mean Pryor was a bit of a mental case and maybe he had Leonard a bit scared because of the way Pryor acted in the ring bit like Liston when he was scared because of how nutty Ali acted could be same reason i could be totally wrong but thats just my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMick
Ray could be a cocky little shit when he wants but when you weigh out the level of comp he faced there is no way he is overrated...even with some decisions that he should not have gotten...IMO he lost the Hagler fight and I have debated that on this forum but still Rays accomplishments speak for them selves.....Who can claim the resume he has in that era? other then Duran and Hearns who came up short more then ahead
I know that Daxx would comment on srl hagler fight i was waiting for it
I would also like to add that i felt that Tommy actually won their 2nd fight.
We all think that even Sugar Ray Leonard himself admitted that.Quote:
Originally Posted by hitmandonny
Never saw the second fight just hear about it alot was it close at all or what
In that case do you not feel that the kudos he receives for defeating hearns is greatly diminished.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICE COLD BOXING
A common arguement to convey Rays greatness is that "he beat Hearns, Duran, Hagler...." I think the scale of these achievements are diminished by the above point.
No i don't that would be unfair if i did he beat Hearns fair and square in 1st fight its just Hearns had Leonards number to always give him tough fight every boxer comes across a fighter that has there number in 2nd fight they were way past it anyway and if 2nd fight would of been 15 rounds he would of stopped Hearns he had Hearns out on his feet in last round Hearns had nothing left i like to think Hearns is better over 12 rounds Leonard is better over 15 rounds.Quote:
Originally Posted by hitmandonny
I think Ali should of lost 2-1 in Norton trilogy and should of had a loss to Young like i said every great fighter has a fighter that has there number and Norton had Ali's just like Hearns had Leonard's.
When i watch fights i wounder if things would be different nowadays if is was still 15 rounds and not 12 because people like ali and leonard need those extra rounds alot
No it wasn't close Hearns easily won by 3 rounds atleast he decked Leonard in 3rd and in the 11th Leonard had excellent round 5 which could of been scored 10-8 arguably although i didn't score it 10-8 and Leonard had good 12th round where he had Hearns out on his feet but couldn't seal the deal but if fight had been 15 rounds like there first fight he would of stopped Hearns in the rematch it was a great fight i believe its on youtube it was close to being fight of the year but Duran vs Barkley just about won fight of the year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140