Were the judges smoking crack?

Taylor was far ahead on all three official cards by scores of 58-55, 59-54, 58-55. This is out of whack to me.

I agree, that's crazy. Oddly, Dan Rafael had Taylor winning every round and up 60-53. In his write up of the fight on ESPN.com he says Taylor was "dominant thorugh six rounds." I like Dan, but I have no idea what he was watching to conclude Taylor was dominating. Maybe it looked different live. To be fair, sometimes you can see two totally different fights live versus on the tube.

Lou DiBully money.

I can not believe Lou had all three of these judges in his pocket.

Piss on you Lou!


:pis2:http://www.braggingrightscorner.com/dibella2.jpg

I score the fight just like the unoffocial scoring of Lederman excluding the knockdown the fight was close. The judges scoring is definitely jacked-up, thank's to up above Pav knocked out Taylor.

this is very strange.

jeah those scores were jackshit. Lederman usually scores a fight better than the ringside judges and he had it as one hell of a close fight at 57-56, and it seems that most fans did too. How someone could have that fight as 60-53 is beyond me, or 59-54, I mean they pretty much landed at the same connect rate, and pavlik was throwing a bit more leather. As most people are suggestin lou has a crapload of money to throw around it seems.

I had Pavlik up 57-56, could of easily been 57-56 for Taylor. But these other scores are just horrible. I honestly believe these judges aren't corrupt, just complete idiots. We need to get some new judges because the ones we have now completely suck.

My mate who was watching had Taylor up by one round.

I had Taylor winning 58 - 55 until he got Koed. Here's how I scored the rounds:
#1: 10 - 9 Taylor
#2: 10 - 8 Taylor
#3: 10 - 9 Pavlik
#4: 10 - 9 Pavlik
#5: 10 - 9 Taylor
#6: 10 - 9 Taylor

First, I'm not a Taylor or Pavlik fan so it was completely unbiased scoring. I felt Taylor was boxing nicely and eventhough he was cornered he was fighting out of it nicely. I think what many of you were scoring is the fact that Pavlik was charging in and throwing hard shots BUT so was Taylor. Let's not forget about Taylor's accuracy. No way in hell did he fight like he did against Spinks. Taylor's combinations looked good but in the end, his lack of finishing off a hurt opponent killed him. Would a Mosley, Hopkins, Trinidad, De La Hoya, Mike Tyson not have been able to finish off Pavlik in the 2nd round? Taylor needs to finish off his opponents like great fighters do! He got caught with a powerful punch and he got KOed.
My respect to both fighters...GREAT performance. Taylor is no pussy...I think they should fight again ASAP.

i'm pretty sure their is a good reason to their judge,i disagree with the judges all the time
thats y i think the judges may have like a rule or like some kind of guideline that tells them who wins a round or not
so when theres a close round, they may side with the fighter who made the harding contact, which i believe that it was taylor

just think of it this way when tayor fought spinks
spinks had threw like50 punches to taylors 10, spinks landed about half of his punches with jab, and lil combination
taylor landed like 3 punches which looked hard and taylor won the round. i thought that was ridiculous because spinks dominated the round but w.e

iono these are random thoughts it probably doesnt make sense...lol

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Originally Posted by sexydarin

Taylor was far ahead on all three official cards by scores of 58-55, 59-54, 58-55. This is out of whack to me.

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thats why you need determination factor as a fighter seek and destroy , you can't let a match get to the that final bell.. its a fukin dice roll then.

If one judge out of the 3 had it 58-55 or 59-54 Taylor, that wouldn't be that weird, since there's always a chance one judge sees it differently from the others.

For all 3 of them to have it for Taylor by significant margins is what's weird.

I had it 57-56 Pavlik. I'll have to watch it again tomorrow.

although the fight ended fairly, that scoring needs to be looked at...

I really enjoyed the watch .. Taylor and Pavlik showed high determination factor, they exhibited nice variety of skill set .. both men did themselves proud. 8) both men went into deep water , only one reached the shore.

Again, I don't see the big deal...I had Taylor winning all but 2 rounds I think. Boxing the socks off of Pavlik. These scores are nowhere near bad IMO ???
Look at the criteria for scoring and I think more of you will understand. Ring Generalship, Defence, Clean shots and effective aggresion.
Defence (making Pavlik miss and look slow) and Clean Shots was definitely Taylor..Ring generalship I would also have given to Taylor in most rounds..he had Pavlik following him when he wanted and he was backing him up when he wanted to. Effective aggresion..I think Pavlik maybe had the edge in this one..he could sometimes neutralize Taylors speed with his work rate.
British guest judge also had it something like 58-55 to Taylor going into 7

HBO had Pavlik winning
Pavlic thought he was winning
and
Jermain Taylor said that he thought he was loosing.

And being there, I think everyone in the crowd thought Pavlic was winning

I had it three rounds a piece

Did you notice in the post fight interviews Pavlik thought he was winning and Taylor thought he was losing , .It actually shocked me when Merchant told Taylor he was winning and Taylor said "really I thought I was losing " . Hats off to Taylor for his honesty , I have new respect for him.

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Originally Posted by Danny_G

Lou DiBully money.

I can not believe Lou had all three of these judges in his pocket.

Piss on you Lou!


:pis2:http://www.braggingrightscorner.com/dibella2.jpg

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Judges need to be reevaluated after atrocities like this...Omagine if it went the distace!! at that rate Taylor would have won 10 of the RDS??? WTF!!!!!!!

i had it 58-55 or 57-56, forget what one...

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Originally Posted by Landon

Did you notice in the post fight interviews Pavlik thought he was winning and Taylor thought he was losing , .It actually shocked me when Merchant told Taylor he was winning and Taylor said "really I thought I was losing " . Hats off to Taylor for his honesty , I have new respect for him.

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I have respected Taylor for a long time now....he is an honest and good kid......very respectful....I like him...just not against Pavlik again....

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Originally Posted by Althugz

Again, I don't see the big deal...I had Taylor winning all but 2 rounds I think. Boxing the socks off of Pavlik. These scores are nowhere near bad IMO ???
Look at the criteria for scoring and I think more of you will understand. Ring Generalship, Defence, Clean shots and effective aggresion.
Defence (making Pavlik miss and look slow) and Clean Shots was definitely Taylor..Ring generalship I would also have given to Taylor in most rounds..he had Pavlik following him when he wanted and he was backing him up when he wanted to. Effective aggresion..I think Pavlik maybe had the edge in this one..he could sometimes neutralize Taylors speed with his work rate.
British guest judge also had it something like 58-55 to Taylor going into 7

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Finally someone who saw the fight like i did Taylor was comfortable winning most rounds and landing the better shots Pavlik wasn't really giving JT many problems and he looked like he was running out of ideas i suggested this yesterday and got ripped apart lol

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Originally Posted by sexydarin

Taylor was far ahead on all three official cards by scores of 58-55, 59-54, 58-55. This is out of whack to me.

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Its not a surprise to me i knew Pavlik would never win a decision against Taylor.

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Originally Posted by sexydarin

Taylor was far ahead on all three official cards by scores of 58-55, 59-54, 58-55. This is out of whack to me.

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How do you think he beat Spinks, Hopkins and Wright.

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Originally Posted by ACEA

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Originally Posted by Althugz

Again, I don't see the big deal...I had Taylor winning all but 2 rounds I think. Boxing the socks off of Pavlik. These scores are nowhere near bad IMO ???
Look at the criteria for scoring and I think more of you will understand. Ring Generalship, Defence, Clean shots and effective aggresion.
Defence (making Pavlik miss and look slow) and Clean Shots was definitely Taylor..Ring generalship I would also have given to Taylor in most rounds..he had Pavlik following him when he wanted and he was backing him up when he wanted to. Effective aggresion..I think Pavlik maybe had the edge in this one..he could sometimes neutralize Taylors speed with his work rate.
British guest judge also had it something like 58-55 to Taylor going into 7

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Finally someone who saw the fight like i did Taylor was comfortable winning most rounds and landing the better shots Pavlik wasn't really giving JT many problems and he looked like he was running out of ideas i suggested this yesterday and got ripped apart lol

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Wasn't really giving Taylor much problems were you watching the same fight i was ??

I had Taylor winning this fight at the time of the KO in what has to be said was one of his better performances for a long time, then POW! Pavlik was still in the fight up until seven but he needed a KO
to win this and he got one, no way was he going to win a decision. Pavlik was getting hit far to easily by Taylor throughout. I had Taylor up by 3 rounds at this time.

I had taylor up 58-55 .

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Originally Posted by astate81

I had taylor up 58-55 .

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WOW I surprised so many people thought Taylor was winning when even he (taylor) thought he was losing. ::**

I think Pavlic gave Taylor problems when he knocked Taylor the fuawk out. ;D

At a higher weight its going to be the same result if not sooner.

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Originally Posted by sexydarin

Taylor was far ahead on all three official cards by scores of 58-55, 59-54, 58-55. This is out of whack to me.

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Agreed apart from the knockdown for JT it was a very close fight.
Depends how much money your promoter gives the judges beforehand i guess :)
CHEERS LOU ;D ;D

Seriously I think all JT has to do is make it twelve rounds. I don't know what it is that judges love so much, I guess its that his punches are real flashy and easy to see, I don't know, its just hard to understand. I only gave Taylor the second and the fifth, maybe he could have gotten the sixth.

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Originally Posted by Althugz

Again, I don't see the big deal...I had Taylor winning all but 2 rounds I think. Boxing the socks off of Pavlik. These scores are nowhere near bad IMO ???
Look at the criteria for scoring and I think more of you will understand. Ring Generalship, Defence, Clean shots and effective aggresion.
Defence (making Pavlik miss and look slow) and Clean Shots was definitely Taylor..Ring generalship I would also have given to Taylor in most rounds..he had Pavlik following him when he wanted and he was backing him up when he wanted to. Effective aggresion..I think Pavlik maybe had the edge in this one..he could sometimes neutralize Taylors speed with his work rate.
British guest judge also had it something like 58-55 to Taylor going into 7

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I would disagree on several points here. Defense was roughly even, depending on the round. Pavlik was blocking a lot of shots on his gloves and forearms, but JT was making Pavlik miss a lot, too. Obviously, the second and seventh rounds are an exception, but otherwise, that criteria was reasonably even.

Clean shots were also distributed evenly - I saw Pavlik landing a lot more clean, hard shots in the first round, but the judges gave that one to Taylor. Rounds 2 and 5 were the only ones I saw Taylor have a clear advantage in this regard.

As for ring generalship, I thought Pavlik won several rounds clearly. He was pushing JT back into the ropes at will, with the exception of round 5, where Taylor seemed to focus on boxing rather than slugging. I though Taylor showed a great deal of skill in that round, timing Pavlik's shots and generally having his way with him.

No way was this fight as one-sided as the judges scorecards indicate. There needs to be some discussion on scoring in boxing - fishy scores seems to be the norm, rather than the exception.

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Originally Posted by bcollins

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Originally Posted by Althugz

Again, I don't see the big deal...I had Taylor winning all but 2 rounds I think. Boxing the socks off of Pavlik. These scores are nowhere near bad IMO ???
Look at the criteria for scoring and I think more of you will understand. Ring Generalship, Defence, Clean shots and effective aggresion.
Defence (making Pavlik miss and look slow) and Clean Shots was definitely Taylor..Ring generalship I would also have given to Taylor in most rounds..he had Pavlik following him when he wanted and he was backing him up when he wanted to. Effective aggresion..I think Pavlik maybe had the edge in this one..he could sometimes neutralize Taylors speed with his work rate.
British guest judge also had it something like 58-55 to Taylor going into 7

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I would disagree on several points here. Defense was roughly even, depending on the round. Pavlik was blocking a lot of shots on his gloves and forearms, but JT was making Pavlik miss a lot, too. Obviously, the second and seventh rounds are an exception, but otherwise, that criteria was reasonably even.

Clean shots were also distributed evenly - I saw Pavlik landing a lot more clean, hard shots in the first round, but the judges gave that one to Taylor. Rounds 2 and 5 were the only ones I saw Taylor have a clear advantage in this regard.

As for ring generalship, I thought Pavlik won several rounds clearly. He was pushing JT back into the ropes at will, with the exception of round 5, where Taylor seemed to focus on boxing rather than slugging. I though Taylor showed a great deal of skill in that round, timing Pavlik's shots and generally having his way with him.

No way was this fight as one-sided as the judges scorecards indicate. There needs to be some discussion on scoring in boxing - fishy scores seems to be the norm, rather than the exception.

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CC,intelligent posting. Agreed on all points,in fact,I wrote a similar response in another thread but your is worded far better than mine.

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Originally Posted by OumaFan

Seriously I think all JT has to do is make it twelve rounds. I don't know what it is that judges love so much, I guess its that his punches are real flashy and easy to see, I don't know, its just hard to understand. I only gave Taylor the second and the fifth, maybe he could have gotten the sixth.

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Thats exactly what I was thinking when I heard the scores!! What the heck were the judges doing? Thankfully,it's irrelevant to a degree but still,some of these judges need to be investigated. Didn't one have JT up by 4?

Ridiculous scoring. No telling how much worse it wouuld have been had it gone the full 12 rounds. ::**

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Originally Posted by El Gamo

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Originally Posted by bcollins

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Originally Posted by Althugz

Again, I don't see the big deal...I had Taylor winning all but 2 rounds I think. Boxing the socks off of Pavlik. These scores are nowhere near bad IMO ???
Look at the criteria for scoring and I think more of you will understand. Ring Generalship, Defence, Clean shots and effective aggresion.
Defence (making Pavlik miss and look slow) and Clean Shots was definitely Taylor..Ring generalship I would also have given to Taylor in most rounds..he had Pavlik following him when he wanted and he was backing him up when he wanted to. Effective aggresion..I think Pavlik maybe had the edge in this one..he could sometimes neutralize Taylors speed with his work rate.
British guest judge also had it something like 58-55 to Taylor going into 7

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I would disagree on several points here. Defense was roughly even, depending on the round. Pavlik was blocking a lot of shots on his gloves and forearms, but JT was making Pavlik miss a lot, too. Obviously, the second and seventh rounds are an exception, but otherwise, that criteria was reasonably even.

Clean shots were also distributed evenly - I saw Pavlik landing a lot more clean, hard shots in the first round, but the judges gave that one to Taylor. Rounds 2 and 5 were the only ones I saw Taylor have a clear advantage in this regard.

As for ring generalship, I thought Pavlik won several rounds clearly. He was pushing JT back into the ropes at will, with the exception of round 5, where Taylor seemed to focus on boxing rather than slugging. I though Taylor showed a great deal of skill in that round, timing Pavlik's shots and generally having his way with him.

No way was this fight as one-sided as the judges scorecards indicate. There needs to be some discussion on scoring in boxing - fishy scores seems to be the norm, rather than the exception.

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CC,intelligent posting. Agreed on all points,in fact,I wrote a similar response in another thread but your is worded far better than mine.

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CC back - and I doubt my wording's better!

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Originally Posted by bcollins

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Originally Posted by Althugz

Again, I don't see the big deal...I had Taylor winning all but 2 rounds I think. Boxing the socks off of Pavlik. These scores are nowhere near bad IMO ???
Look at the criteria for scoring and I think more of you will understand. Ring Generalship, Defence, Clean shots and effective aggresion.
Defence (making Pavlik miss and look slow) and Clean Shots was definitely Taylor..Ring generalship I would also have given to Taylor in most rounds..he had Pavlik following him when he wanted and he was backing him up when he wanted to. Effective aggresion..I think Pavlik maybe had the edge in this one..he could sometimes neutralize Taylors speed with his work rate.
British guest judge also had it something like 58-55 to Taylor going into 7

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I would disagree on several points here. Defense was roughly even, depending on the round. Pavlik was blocking a lot of shots on his gloves and forearms, but JT was making Pavlik miss a lot, too. Obviously, the second and seventh rounds are an exception, but otherwise, that criteria was reasonably even.

Clean shots were also distributed evenly - I saw Pavlik landing a lot more clean, hard shots in the first round, but the judges gave that one to Taylor. Rounds 2 and 5 were the only ones I saw Taylor have a clear advantage in this regard.

As for ring generalship, I thought Pavlik won several rounds clearly. He was pushing JT back into the ropes at will, with the exception of round 5, where Taylor seemed to focus on boxing rather than slugging. I though Taylor showed a great deal of skill in that round, timing Pavlik's shots and generally having his way with him.

No way was this fight as one-sided as the judges scorecards indicate. There needs to be some discussion on scoring in boxing - fishy scores seems to be the norm, rather than the exception.

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Agreed, this was an intelligent post so thank you.
I had Taylor winning the first very clearly..He came out of the blocks extremely fast..Pavlik only really came on in the last minute of that round. You forget that the scores of 58-55 AREN'T one sided at all. That is a score of 4-2 with a 10-8 round. The third judge I would agree had it slightly wrong. I thought Taylor was using the ropes to draw Pavlik in sometimes and then exploding with a combination off of them. Could be considered ring generalship to have your opponent following you whilst still landing shots. As far as defence I think the stats show that in favour of Taylor.
People always forget that a scorecard doesn't always tell you how the fight went! A fighter can win all 12 rounds but that doesn't mean it was easy! Look at the Berto vs Estrada fight..I would have given nearly all of the rounds to Berto. Reading it on paper it would seem like Berto had an easy night when in reality it was a very competitive toe-to-toe battle!

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Originally Posted by Althugz

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Originally Posted by bcollins

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Originally Posted by Althugz

Again, I don't see the big deal...I had Taylor winning all but 2 rounds I think. Boxing the socks off of Pavlik. These scores are nowhere near bad IMO ???
Look at the criteria for scoring and I think more of you will understand. Ring Generalship, Defence, Clean shots and effective aggresion.
Defence (making Pavlik miss and look slow) and Clean Shots was definitely Taylor..Ring generalship I would also have given to Taylor in most rounds..he had Pavlik following him when he wanted and he was backing him up when he wanted to. Effective aggresion..I think Pavlik maybe had the edge in this one..he could sometimes neutralize Taylors speed with his work rate.
British guest judge also had it something like 58-55 to Taylor going into 7

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I would disagree on several points here. Defense was roughly even, depending on the round. Pavlik was blocking a lot of shots on his gloves and forearms, but JT was making Pavlik miss a lot, too. Obviously, the second and seventh rounds are an exception, but otherwise, that criteria was reasonably even.

Clean shots were also distributed evenly - I saw Pavlik landing a lot more clean, hard shots in the first round, but the judges gave that one to Taylor. Rounds 2 and 5 were the only ones I saw Taylor have a clear advantage in this regard.

As for ring generalship, I thought Pavlik won several rounds clearly. He was pushing JT back into the ropes at will, with the exception of round 5, where Taylor seemed to focus on boxing rather than slugging. I though Taylor showed a great deal of skill in that round, timing Pavlik's shots and generally having his way with him.

No way was this fight as one-sided as the judges scorecards indicate. There needs to be some discussion on scoring in boxing - fishy scores seems to be the norm, rather than the exception.

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Agreed, this was an intelligent post so thank you.
I had Taylor winning the first very clearly..He came out of the blocks extremely fast..Pavlik only really came on in the last minute of that round. You forget that the scores of 58-55 AREN'T one sided at all. That is a score of 4-2 with a 10-8 round. The third judge I would agree had it slightly wrong. I thought Taylor was using the ropes to draw Pavlik in sometimes and then exploding with a combination off of them. Could be considered ring generalship to have your opponent following you whilst still landing shots. As far as defence I think the stats show that in favour of Taylor.
People always forget that a scorecard doesn't always tell you how the fight went! A fighter can win all 12 rounds but that doesn't mean it was easy! Look at the Berto vs Estrada fight..I would have given nearly all of the rounds to Berto. Reading it on paper it would seem like Berto had an easy night when in reality it was a very competitive toe-to-toe battle!

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Like i said in other thread and i'll copy and paste the punchstats for first round Pavlik clearly won the first round.

Pavlik landed 43 out of 89 and Taylor landed 26 out of 72.

I must admit I didn't score it but I felt that Taylor was ahead upto the knockout. He had a HUGE second round and maybe psychologically I felt Pavlik was the more vulnurable in the rounds following that.

I did think Pavlik won the first though, then 10-8 Taylor round 2. After that I didn't score but really the rounds were close and could have gone either way.

Taylor certainly looked the stronger to me up until his complete collapse in the 7th but again it may be psychological following Pavliks near death experience in round 2.

Great fight though and the judges were never going to be needed anyways.

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

I must admit I didn't score it but I felt that Taylor was ahead upto the knockout. He had a HUGE second round and maybe psychologically I felt Pavlik was the more vulnurable in the rounds following that.

I did think Pavlik won the first though, then 10-8 Taylor round 2. After that I didn't score but really the rounds were close and could have gone either way.

Taylor certainly looked the stronger to me up until his complete collapse in the 7th but again it may be psychological following Pavliks near death experience in round 2.

Great fight though and the judges were never going to be needed anyways.

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I gotta say I saw it totally different, he did have a good fifth round but I saw Taylor starting to look tired and desperate as it went on, throwing wild left hooks totally off balance, just looking shaky. His technique was just getting worse and worse. And Pavlik looked like he was just getting stronger.

By Danny Serratelli at Ringside (Oct 1, 2007):
"After the fight a lot of people questioned trainer Manny Steward's instructions in the corner. It seems that Steward, Taylor himself and many of the people watching the fight on HBO were under the impression that Pavlik was leading in the fight. From ringside, it is difficult to tell how they were under that impression. While there were several close rounds, most ringside observers were certain that Jermain lost no more than a round or two. It is becoming a trend for fans to put too much faith in punchstat numbers and commentators opinions that are often not totally in touch with the reality of what is going on in the ring."

I thought Taylor was ahead at the time of stoppage. To me it looked like he was landing the cleaner shots, and was slipping, blocking, and especially countering beautifully. I didn't think taylor was dominating, but it just looked to me like Pavlik was outclassed. Taylor was faster and his punches looked really sharp. I thought Pavlik was still in it because of his work rate, but he seemed a little nervous and overanxious to me. I thought Taylor was actually going to wear down Pavlik with his crisp counters.

Even though I've seen Pavlik fight a few times, I still get deceived by his punching power. I looks like he is flinging out wet noodles at his opponent until you see him land a really clean punch, and especially when you see it in slow-mo. I think that has a lot to do with me (and possibly the judges) thinking Taylor was doing more damage in most rounds.

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Originally Posted by Myk_Myk

By Danny Serratelli at Ringside (Oct 1, 2007):
"After the fight a lot of people questioned trainer Manny Steward's instructions in the corner. It seems that Steward, Taylor himself and many of the people watching the fight on HBO were under the impression that Pavlik was leading in the fight. From ringside, it is difficult to tell how they were under that impression. While there were several close rounds, most ringside observers were certain that Jermain lost no more than a round or two. It is becoming a trend for fans to put too much faith in punchstat numbers and commentators opinions that are often not totally in touch with the reality of what is going on in the ring."

I thought Taylor was ahead at the time of stoppage. To me it looked like he was landing the cleaner shots, and was slipping, blocking, and especially countering beautifully. I didn't think taylor was dominating, but it just looked to me like Pavlik was outclassed. Taylor was faster and his punches looked really sharp. I thought Pavlik was still in it because of his work rate, but he seemed a little nervous and overanxious to me. I thought Taylor was actually going to wear down Pavlik with his crisp counters.

Even though I've seen Pavlik fight a few times, I still get deceived by his punching power. I looks like he is flinging out wet noodles at his opponent until you see him land a really clean punch, and especially when you see it in slow-mo. I think that has a lot to do with me (and possibly the judges) thinking Taylor was doing more damage in most rounds.

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I couldn't care less about punchstats, I don't bring them up ever, I've talked about how ridiculous they are and how inaccurate they are, I mean supposedly Gatti landed like 48 punches against Floyd. Please, more like 2. I don't care about the punchstats in round 1, it was clear to me Pavlik won it without the punch stat numbers.

I just think Taylor's punches are real flashy and easy to pick up on, maybe that's why the judges love him because everything's easy to see, he doesn't do inside work, everything's long, quick and flashy. I can't think of any other reason he constantly, and I mean constantly, gets the benefit of the doubt in close rounds.

If you scored it for Taylor fine, but the one thing I totally disagree with you about is Pavlik looking nervous, I'm not sure where that comes from. He's a very relaxed looking guy, the complete opposite of Taylor who is one of the most nervous looking fighters I've ever seen. He just looked pretty close to desperate by about the sixth round to me.