Logically why the universe cannot be infinite in size.

Ok this a problem for the more curious amongst you Punisher etc but it is always said that the universe is infinite in size.

I however disagree with this as being scientifically impossible and I'm wondering who agrees with me?

If we believe the scientific model that the universe started from a Big Bang, then literally at the beginnning there was nothing. Now when the universe exploded into existence it began to expand according to science.

Now here's my problem. If something starts from somewhere, i.e has a beginning it can never be infinite in size or any other way, just not possible.

You cannot expand yourself to infinity because you'd never get there. By expanding you'll always be bigger than you were before but not as big as you are soon going to be, kind of like Bigaru or Boxing Gorilla :P


Anyways imagine it with numbers, if you start at 1 you cannot ever get to infinity by adding numbers because there will always be a higher number out there.

If the universe started from a tiny fixed point and has expanded ever since it cannot be infinite in size. If you could trace it back 15 billion or so years to the beginning (according to science) and it would be so small you could hold it on an eye of a needle then how can it be infinite in size now?

Not possible, it's just very very very very fucking big but not infinite.


Thankyou. :soapbox:

Bilbo I am beginning to realise that as well as being offensive you can be very clever at times. (Not just a one trick pony after all).

Mate don't even start with this sh*t. This type of stuff is a total mindfuck.

Its just another Bilbo argument. Bilbo, you have no way of knowing how large the universe is so your suggestion is faulty. ;)

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Originally Posted by miles

Its just another Bilbo argument. Bilbo, you have no way of knowing how large the universe is so your suggestion is faulty. ;)

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I realise I have no way of knowing how big it is but logically it cannot be infinite can it?

If it started from a single point, and both science and religion agree that it did then how can it be infinite?

If you start at 1 and begin counting you will NEVER get to infinity will you. Why is this any different? You start from an atom (actually smaller) sized but rapidly expanding universe, it's always getting bigger.

If it's getting bigger it CANNOT be infinite.

Simple logic my Korean friend. 8)

We will never know lads

Well, they say that it will expanded to the point that is rips the earth to shreds. That's what I heard somewhere on one of the "smart" t.v. channels. Doesn't help prove or disprove anything, just something to think about when you lie in bed at night.

I think it is infinite. If it isn't then what happens when you get to the edge? Do you just pop onto the other side like in the Astroids arcade game? Do you bump into the wall of God's garden when you reach the end?

There is no gravity in outer space so what would keep it from expanding forever? All that blackness is just various gases right? I have no idea really.

I say that since there is no gravity a "big bang" would create enough force to keep things moving forever and a day. No gravity to slow it down so keeps moving. At this point it is moving so slow that it would be like watching paint dry if you were sitting on the outskirts of all that is, but still, I believe it's infinite.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

Ok this a problem for the more curious amongst you Punisher etc but it is always said that the universe is infinite in size.

I however disagree with this as being scientifically impossible and I'm wondering who agrees with me?

If we believe the scientific model that the universe started from a Big Bang, then literally at the beginnning there was nothing. Now when the universe exploded into existence it began to expand according to science.

Now here's my problem. If something starts from somewhere, i.e has a beginning it can never be infinite in size or any other way, just not possible.

You cannot expand yourself to infinity because you'd never get there. By expanding you'll always be bigger than you were before but not as big as you are soon going to be, kind of like Bigaru or Boxing Gorilla :P


Anyways imagine it with numbers, if you start at 1 you cannot ever get to infinity by adding numbers because there will always be a higher number out there.

If the universe started from a tiny fixed point and has expanded ever since it cannot be infinite in size. If you could trace it back 15 billion or so years to the beginning (according to science) and it would be so small you could hold it on an eye of a needle then how can it be infinite in size now?

Not possible, it's just very very very very F****** big but not infinite.


Thankyou. :soapbox:

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how can something come from nothing?

What is "nothing"?

Also the universe is expanding, but into what?

Also the universe is expanding, but into what? Preme

Good question. Scary, huh?

The universe is that "what" so as it expands the center gets thinner until...

:end:

;D

I have thought about this since I was a kid. I used to think the universe was square for some reason.

Lately I reckon we are all a much larger version of molecules, like a gas. Gas molecules are round and float around. Maybe we play the same kind of part in a much larger place. The mind boggles I just don't know, now I wrote that down it looks stupid :-\

Alright my personal belief is that a 3d plane cannot be infinte because it has 3 defined dimensions. The 3d plane is the only one actually capable of being completely defined in size so the idea of it also being infinite doesn't sit well with me. Leading scientists will tell you that space has 10,11, or 26 dimensions but my argument against that is that you can make 3d models of everyone of their models (including the 26d one). If you can make a 3d model of something, I hate to break it to you but it is 3 dimensional. Stephen Hawking's idea of the graviton is the biggest pile of crap i've ever seen. Gravity is a result of mass, all mass not just specialized particles.

On to the big bang theory, It is completely impossible to begin with. If all the mass in the universe was in one spot to begin with, expansion would be completely impossible whether there was an explosion or not. Movement is only possible between 2 peices of mass. We can float around in space ships out in space because there's other bodies of mass out there making a very big curve for space. If all the mass was in one place, the cuve would be so sharp that you would not be able to expand outwards regardless of the power you were packing in that explosion. (some self promoting pat on the back bs) The distance between galaxies suggests that my theory of each galaxy being formed individually, instead of all coming from the same spot.

Imagine if you were the only thing in space: You would not be able to move (you wouldn't be able to survive but this helps understanding from the physics view). If there was a ball in your hand it would stay on your hand because movement outward away from your body is impossible because of inertia and the lack of space. That doesn't really make sense but once you have a single particle of mass in an unmeasureable void (this thing isn't big or small, it just IS because there's nothing to measure in it), the rules of that void completely change.

The one problem I see with your theory is that you are saying that infinite is an individual number ie 5737027593. From what I have learned in my math classes is that infinite is not an individual number, it is just a way of saying a number larger than what we can imagine. Like someone already said there is always a number larger than whatever number you can come up with.

At least mathematically speaking.

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Originally Posted by TyBuff

The one problem I see with your theory is that you are saying that infinite is an individual number ie 5737027593. From what I have learned in my math classes is that infinite is not an individual number, it is just a way of saying a number larger than what we can imagine. Like someone already said there is always a number larger than whatever number you can come up with.

At least mathematically speaking.

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Here's the thing with numbers, their only purpose is to help us understand the world around us. Let's say 100 was the biggest number we'd need to use to measure anything. We could add 1 to that to make number 101 but that number would have no use other than being a number. The same thing goes for the really small numbers. After so many places right to the decimal, there's no value in that number. Like .00000000000000000000000001 may have a purpose somewhere in our field but several places down the line its value in the real world realistically becomes 0 as nothing that small currently exists or is measureable.

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Originally Posted by BoxingGorilla

Well, they say that it will expanded to the point that is rips the earth to shreds. That's what I heard somewhere on one of the "smart" t.v. channels. Doesn't help prove or disprove anything, just something to think about when you lie in bed at night.

I think it is infinite. If it isn't then what happens when you get to the edge? Do you just pop onto the other side like in the Astroids arcade game? Do you bump into the wall of God's garden when you reach the end?

There is no gravity in outer space so what would keep it from expanding forever? All that blackness is just various gases right? I have no idea really.

I say that since there is no gravity a "big bang" would create enough force to keep things moving forever and a day. No gravity to slow it down so keeps moving. At this point it is moving so slow that it would be like watching paint dry if you were sitting on the outskirts of all that is, but still, I believe it's infinite.

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The edge isn't physical but the gravity around that area would prevent you from moving any further in that direction.

The edge isn't physical but the gravity around that area would prevent you from moving any further in that direction. Pun

I see.


Really, I guess it doesn't make a difference. We are not capable of getting anywhere close to the edge of the universe and reporting back to anyone so it is infinite as far as humans are concerned.

If Pi is infinite then I'd bet that the universe is as well. What good is an infinite number in a finite universe?

Can't think about this type of stuff unless I'm high.

There is SO MUCH that we don't know though. Think about it. What the fuck are black holes? Nothing? How the fuck is that possible?

And how do we know the Earth's core is molten lava? Have we ever been there? What if it's water or something?

And it's ridiculous when people think we are the only lifeforms in the universe. Absolutely stupid. We are a nothing but a snowflake, for all we know other life knows we are here but has no reason to bother with us.

Talking about aliens, look at the Ocean. That is a WIERD place, yet we want to see life on Mars? Fuck that, find out what is on Earth first.

Well, it seems like every time we think we have seen the smallest particle, there seems to be another discovered when microscopes improve. You got atoms then protons/nuetrons/electrons, then quarks and leptons...

Talking about aliens, look at the Ocean. That is a WIERD place, yet we want to see life on Mars? F*** that, find out what is on Earth first. Amat


Good point.

It's always been a fantasy of mine to drain Lock Ness and see what the hell is really in there. I know that it has underground acess to open water but there has to be a way to "get to the bottom" of things there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

Ok this a problem for the more curious amongst you Punisher etc but it is always said that the universe is infinite in size.

I however disagree with this as being scientifically impossible and I'm wondering who agrees with me?

If we believe the scientific model that the universe started from a Big Bang, then literally at the beginnning there was nothing. Now when the universe exploded into existence it began to expand according to science.

Now here's my problem. If something starts from somewhere, i.e has a beginning it can never be infinite in size or any other way, just not possible.

You cannot expand yourself to infinity because you'd never get there. By expanding you'll always be bigger than you were before but not as big as you are soon going to be, kind of like Bigaru or Boxing Gorilla :P


Anyways imagine it with numbers, if you start at 1 you cannot ever get to infinity by adding numbers because there will always be a higher number out there.

If the universe started from a tiny fixed point and has expanded ever since it cannot be infinite in size. If you could trace it back 15 billion or so years to the beginning (according to science) and it would be so small you could hold it on an eye of a needle then how can it be infinite in size now?

Not possible, it's just very very very very F****** big but not infinite.


Thankyou. :soapbox:

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The big bang theory remains a theory. It is for this reason that I would rather believe that God created everything. The big bang theory espouses on the idea of a chaotic universe but as you can observe, the earth revolves around the sun in an orderly manner............so many other reasons why I believe there is God who created everything.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by brucelee

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

Ok this a problem for the more curious amongst you Punisher etc but it is always said that the universe is infinite in size.

I however disagree with this as being scientifically impossible and I'm wondering who agrees with me?

If we believe the scientific model that the universe started from a Big Bang, then literally at the beginnning there was nothing. Now when the universe exploded into existence it began to expand according to science.

Now here's my problem. If something starts from somewhere, i.e has a beginning it can never be infinite in size or any other way, just not possible.

You cannot expand yourself to infinity because you'd never get there. By expanding you'll always be bigger than you were before but not as big as you are soon going to be, kind of like Bigaru or Boxing Gorilla :P


Anyways imagine it with numbers, if you start at 1 you cannot ever get to infinity by adding numbers because there will always be a higher number out there.

If the universe started from a tiny fixed point and has expanded ever since it cannot be infinite in size. If you could trace it back 15 billion or so years to the beginning (according to science) and it would be so small you could hold it on an eye of a needle then how can it be infinite in size now?

Not possible, it's just very very very very F****** big but not infinite.


Thankyou. :soapbox:

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The big bang theory remains a theory. It is for this reason that I would rather believe that God created everything. The big bang theory espouses on the idea of a chaotic universe but as you can observe, the earth revolves around the sun in an orderly manner............so many other reasons why I believe there is God who created everything.

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:coolclick: to you, I agree completely

Oh, I believe that God created everything. I'm just chatting about the topic at hand without bringing that into play. Most people will tune you out as soon as you say His name.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BoxingGorilla

It's always been a fantasy of mine to drain Lock Ness and see what the hell is really in there.

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Bigfoot and his submarine.

This is something that has amazed, confused and scared me since a very early age.
My first point is that numbers cannot possibly be used to represent the universe. Numbers are a man made tool, a crude tool at that, nowhere near accurate enough to convey something that was a result of a much higher power. However being inquisitive like everybody else il run with this n try to reason.

The start of every experiment must be based upon a hypothesis.
1)We'll grab Bilbo's hypothesis; The univerese cannot be infinite.
2)Grab a theory; if the universe is not infinite, it has a nominal size.
3)Expand; if it has a nominal size, it is "contained."
Hitmandonnys Scientific experiment 1:
Grab an egg. This will represent the earth, all life on it, all natural features on it etc. Follow. Egg=Earth.
Grab the egg n chuck it in a bowl. Bowl represents universe.
So far we have shown the universes ability to contain the planet earth. If you so wish throw in the various other planets, use oranges, apples whatever, be as imaginative as you want, use glitter for stars for all i care, but the representation is the same. Bowl CONTAINS Apple, egg, orange etc. This illustrates the Universes capability of supporting and containing a massive amount of natural material, i.e. Rock, water, Carbon dioxide, oxygen Hydrogen, all matter.

However, another factor is now observed. The bowl is sitting on the table. The universe, containing all stated components is located within another enviroment. Furthermore it is noted, the table is within the kitchen, the kitchen is contained in the house, the house in the yard etc.

So u got the egg, in the bowl, on the table, in the kitchen, in the house, in the yard right. That equates to the earth, within the universe, within the larger universe, contained in a larger universe, contained in another etc.
So this experiment is inconclusive.

The only thing my experiment has proven is that man's "logical" thinking is not sufficient to figure out this mystery.

And thats why i feel Ricky Hatton will beat Floyd Mayweather.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

This is something that has amazed, confused and scared me since a very early age.
My first point is that numbers cannot possibly be used to represent the universe. Numbers are a man made tool, a crude tool at that, nowhere near accurate enough to convey something that was a result of a much higher power. However being inquisitive like everybody else il run with this n try to reason.

The start of every experiment must be based upon a hypothesis.
1)We'll grab Bilbo's hypothesis; The univerese cannot be infinite.
2)Grab a theory; if the universe is not infinite, it has a nominal size.
3)Expand; if it has a nominal size, it is "contained."
Hitmandonnys Scientific experiment 1:
Grab an egg. This will represent the earth, all life on it, all natural features on it etc. Follow. Egg=Earth.
Grab the egg n chuck it in a bowl. Bowl represents universe.
So far we have shown the universes ability to contain the planet earth. If you so wish throw in the various other planets, use oranges, apples whatever, be as imaginative as you want, use glitter for stars for all i care, but the representation is the same. Bowl CONTAINS Apple, egg, orange etc. This illustrates the Universes capability of supporting and containing a massive amount of natural material, i.e. Rock, water, Carbon dioxide, oxygen Hydrogen, all matter.

However, another factor is now observed. The bowl is sitting on the table. The universe, containing all stated components is located within another enviroment. Furthermore it is noted, the table is within the kitchen, the kitchen is contained in the house, the house in the yard etc.

So u got the egg, in the bowl, on the table, in the kitchen, in the house, in the yard right. That equates to the earth, within the universe, within the larger universe, contained in a larger universe, contained in another etc.
So this experiment is inconclusive.

The only thing my experiment has proven is that man's "logical" thinking is not sufficient to figure out this mystery.

And thats why i feel Ricky Hatton will beat Floyd Mayweather.

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lol :coolclick: I can imagine Punisher reading your post, getting all excited thinking you are about to reveal some great piece of truth that would help him towards completing his 'theory of everything'.

Then when it all led to your Hatton will beat Floyd comment I can imagine him throwing his scribbled notes on the floor in disgust shouting 'Meh!' ;D

CC returned mate.

But no seriously, i need that oxytocin quick.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

This is something that has amazed, confused and scared me since a very early age.
My first point is that numbers cannot possibly be used to represent the universe. Numbers are a man made tool, a crude tool at that, nowhere near accurate enough to convey something that was a result of a much higher power. However being inquisitive like everybody else il run with this n try to reason.

The start of every experiment must be based upon a hypothesis.
1)We'll grab Bilbo's hypothesis; The univerese cannot be infinite.
2)Grab a theory; if the universe is not infinite, it has a nominal size.
3)Expand; if it has a nominal size, it is "contained."
Hitmandonnys Scientific experiment 1:
Grab an egg. This will represent the earth, all life on it, all natural features on it etc. Follow. Egg=Earth.
Grab the egg n chuck it in a bowl. Bowl represents universe.
So far we have shown the universes ability to contain the planet earth. If you so wish throw in the various other planets, use oranges, apples whatever, be as imaginative as you want, use glitter for stars for all i care, but the representation is the same. Bowl CONTAINS Apple, egg, orange etc. This illustrates the Universes capability of supporting and containing a massive amount of natural material, i.e. Rock, water, Carbon dioxide, oxygen Hydrogen, all matter.

However, another factor is now observed. The bowl is sitting on the table. The universe, containing all stated components is located within another enviroment. Furthermore it is noted, the table is within the kitchen, the kitchen is contained in the house, the house in the yard etc.

So u got the egg, in the bowl, on the table, in the kitchen, in the house, in the yard right. That equates to the earth, within the universe, within the larger universe, contained in a larger universe, contained in another etc.
So this experiment is inconclusive.

The only thing my experiment has proven is that man's "logical" thinking is not sufficient to figure out this mystery.

And thats why i feel Ricky Hatton will beat Floyd Mayweather.

---

lol. I must agree with this conclusion. cc hitman after 24 hour limit.

Thanks Bruce .

I disagree about the number thing, Donny.

Numbers are the "universial" language. Once you decipher the symbol used to represent the amount, of course.

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Originally Posted by BoxingGorilla

I disagree about the number thing, Donny.

Numbers are the "universial" language. Once you decipher the symbol used to represent the amount, of course.

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Numbers are'nt universal dude. Numbers were created by man. Man are bourne of the earth, we have little knowledge of anything beyond our atmosphere, so how could we create something universal?

So what units do we have that ARE universal. Light perhaps. Numbers applied to light may give u a universal unit. But that is based upon a Universal factor (the light source), (i'm referring to light from the sun/stars obviously.)

Mayb Sound, However sound can only occur in appropriate atmospheres, and would not be the equivalent on earth as it would be in space/elsewhere in the universe so that is not a universal factor.

Sorry gettin carried away.....

Without numbers you cannot have mathematics and without math we wouldn't have invented anything complex. The slicing of bread is wonderful, but how do you think we figured how many times to slice it?

Mathematics and the invention of the Unit and number are undoubtedly feats of human ingenuity. Numbers and text are man's two greatest and most complex inventions. However, the number system and the formulae associated with it is flawed.

For example, the space race. Why did it take so long to reach space and the moon etc. Because the number system we have in place is flawed, Take pi for example. To most people that complete second and third level education this is the most exact numerical figure they will ever deal with. However, in the space race, when pi was utilised in an attempt to reach the moon it was found that the implementation of pi would result in the spaceship ending up thousands of miles in the wrong direction.
Or the common "TAN" function on a scientific calculator. Log tables, textbooks, all educational publications preach that the Tangent of 45 degrees = 1. However play with this function enough and it will alter, the calculator will eventually start showing up a different figure. Why? because the numerical system and its formulae conflict, they dont 100% equate.They may suffice our needs, such as construction, common calculation and estimation, but they certainly do not meet the requirements necessary for operating outside of out own enviroment

Degrees? Degrees are for thermometers. Radians are cooler!!

For the questions of infinity, and the nature of infinity in relation to mathematics, check out the ideas of Cantor. He's the guy who started trying to give these concepts mathematical rigor.

Then there's Wildberger, who doesn't even believe in an infinite set.

Then there's the Continuum hypothesis, which basically asks about finding "degrees" of infinity. How do you compare infinities? Damn ordinals!

No wonder a lot of mathematicians/logicians turn to the bottle. :alcoholic: :dontknow:.

Take pi for example. To most people that complete second and third level education this is the most exact numerical figure they will ever deal with. However, in the space race, when pi was utilised in an attempt to reach the moon it was found that the implementation of pi would result in the spaceship ending up thousands of miles in the wrong direction. Donny


LOL That's hilarious. I did not know that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BoxingGorilla

Take pi for example. To most people that complete second and third level education this is the most exact numerical figure they will ever deal with. However, in the space race, when pi was utilised in an attempt to reach the moon it was found that the implementation of pi would result in the spaceship ending up thousands of miles in the wrong direction. Donny


LOL That's hilarious. I did not know that.

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You guys might like this one, too - Indiana almost passed a bill that effectively gave 3.2 as the correct value of Pi.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indiana_Pi_Bill

Good thing NASA doesn't have thier main offices in Indiana ;D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

Mathematics and the invention of the Unit and number are undoubtedly feats of human ingenuity. Numbers and text are man's two greatest and most complex inventions. However, the number system and the formulae associated with it is flawed.

For example, the space race. Why did it take so long to reach space and the moon etc. Because the number system we have in place is flawed, Take pi for example. To most people that complete second and third level education this is the most exact numerical figure they will ever deal with. However, in the space race, when pi was utilised in an attempt to reach the moon it was found that the implementation of pi would result in the spaceship ending up thousands of miles in the wrong direction.
Or the common "TAN" function on a scientific calculator. Log tables, textbooks, all educational publications preach that the Tangent of 45 degrees = 1. However play with this function enough and it will alter, the calculator will eventually start showing up a different figure. Why? because the numerical system and its formulae conflict, they dont 100% equate.They may suffice our needs, such as construction, common calculation and estimation, but they certainly do not meet the requirements necessary for operating outside of out own enviroment

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I think Hitmandonny wins the award for the man I least expected to understand calculus and advanced mathematics award.

Just goes to show you can't judge a person by their avater ;)

I owe you another in 24

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bcollins

Degrees? Degrees are for thermometers. Radians are cooler!!

For the questions of infinity, and the nature of infinity in relation to mathematics, check out the ideas of Cantor. He's the guy who started trying to give these concepts mathematical rigor.

Then there's Wildberger, who doesn't even believe in an infinite set.

Then there's the Continuum hypothesis, which basically asks about finding "degrees" of infinity. How do you compare infinities? Damn ordinals!

No wonder a lot of mathematicians/logicians turn to the bottle. :alcoholic: :dontknow:.

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You lost me on radians ??? ;D

Man has never walked on the moon

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Originally Posted by Kel

Man has never walked on the moon

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But women DEFINTELY came from Venus ;D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kel

Man has never walked on the moon

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and there are no satellites. My GPS finds coordinates on its own.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kel

Man has never walked on the moon

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If you believe it was just a giant scam......... I hope you get better soon and this is only temporary.