There seems to be some debate about this, I have thrown them vertical but horizontal supposedly carries more power. What do you do?
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There seems to be some debate about this, I have thrown them vertical but horizontal supposedly carries more power. What do you do?
I've always been trained to throw it with the fist landing verticle, but when i'm kind of looping it a little to come over or around their right hand a little, I bring it more horizontal... Which may or may not be good form,,, but the debate wouldn't be brought up so often between vertical and horizontal if it was completely black and white.
Think how you Biomechanicley push pull and shove the clues are there
I posted on this before the server went down....
I was trained to land "palms down" when hitting the head and to land with palms facing my own body when hitting his.
Well I jab with a vertical fist, I think you mean you hook with a horizontal fist?Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrap
Horizontal to the body vertical to the head makes sense.
I'm suprised you jab with a vertical fist - if we both have the same idea of vertical. It's not really that obvious since a fist isn't exactly a long object - i would have thought the fist is horizontal when the palm faces down.
So my jab would turn at the end of the punch and connect when it's horizontal. I always hook with palm down when aiming for the head. That's just the way I was taught.
I read Ned Beaumont's book, (Boxing as a martial art-great read about the techniques of power punching) he suggested it based on the "power line" that ends with the knuckle of the ring finger (my mistake its actually the little finger), the part I aim with when landing punches (Dempseys book states this also) It feels kind of weird at first but it does carry more power/snap when combined of course with the last fraction of a second grabbing motion of the fist.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharla
I can see you are well read on the subject but to be honest I'm not and I'm not completely sure I understand. I would have thought that if you did decide to aim to hit with your middle knuckle you could do that regardless of whether or not your fist is vertical or horizontal?
The only person I know who jabs with their palm not finishing facing down had a bad shoulder injury from rugby and modified his punch to avoid turning his shoulder and bodyweight into it. Poor guy is still unable to get back into it the way he'd like to.
I too jab with my fist vertical, still gives decent power but it is much easier to break someones guard with the vertical fist rather that horizontal. With the hook a horizontal fist i find gives much more power (jack dempsey's book is great for improving your power in your punches), after all you want that hook to hurt them :)
I'm intrigued...
I tell you what, i have a spar Friday and a fight Sunday il try both out and see which i find more beneficial...
THE POWER LINE RUNS FROM EITHER SHOULDER-STRAIGHT DOWN THE LENGTH OF THE ARM TO THE FIST KNUCKLE OF THE LITTLE FINGER, when the fist is doubled. Remember: The power line ends in the fist knuckle of the little finger on either hand. Gaze upon your "pinky" with new respect. You might call that pinky knuckle the exit of your power line- the muzzle of your cannon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharla
You'll understand the power line if you feel it out.
Stand up. Walk toward a wall until you're at arm's length from the wall when facing it. Put your heels together. You should be standing just far enough from the wall so that you can barely touch it with the tip of the middle finger of your right hand-at a point directly opposite your chin. Touch that chin-high point with your middle-finger tip.
Now, move back three or four inches, but keep the heels together.
Double your right fist firmly. In making a fist, close the fingers into the palm of the hand, and then close the thumb down over the outside of the fingers (Figure 5).
Extend the fist at arm's length toward the spot on the wall-only toward it. The fist should be upright, as if you were holding a stick running from ceiling to floor. The little knuckle is down, toward the floor.
With your arm stiffly extended, let your body sway slowly forward-without moving the feet-until your fist (still upright) is pressed so firmly against the chin-high spot on the wall that your fist and stiff arm are supporting the weight of your leaning body (Figure 6).
Note that the lower part of your fist (still upright)- particularly the little knuckle-provides the natural, solid end of the firm, straight line-from shoulder to fist-that is supporting your weight. Note particularly that this line runs unswervingly through your wrist to the little knuckle (Figure 7).
Now, with your upright fist still supporting your weight at the chin-high spot, try to shift your pressure from the little knuckle to the upper knuckles. Then turn your fist so that the palm of your hand is down. When you attempt those changes, you should feel immediately that both new pressure position of your fist "lack" the "solidity" of the first position. And you should feel and see that a change in position "swerved" the "power line" at the wrist - putting your wrist in a hazardous landing position.
Keeping your feet in the same position, go through the same procedure with your left fist. You'll find the "power line" in the same location - straight from the shoulder through the little knuckle. But, where would the power line be if you wished to lower your fist and punch at a man's stomach?
You can answer that by testing a spot on the wall just opposite of your own solar plexus - the vital body target just below the end of the breast bone. In making the lower test, sway forward from the same standing position - with either fist - toward the solar-plexus spot. But, before you sway, turn your fist palmdown so that the knuckles will be parallel to the ceiling when you press your fist against the wall. The power line still runs solidly through the little knuckle. Now that you have felt out the power line, you can appreciate that the greatest possible solidity would be achieved if you landed every punch with the little knuckle first.
Unfortunately, however, the hand-bone behind the little knuckle is the most fragile of the five backbones. It can be broken the most easily. You must not attempt to land first with the little knuckle. Instead you must try to land first with the knuckle next to your pinky (the ring finger). We'll call that the 2nd knuckle. Aiming with the 2nd knuckle usually brings about a three-knuckle landing. Those three-knuckles are: middle, second (ring) and pinky. If you aim with the second knuckle, those three knuckles usually will land together because the average fist slopes slightly from the middle knuckle to the pinky. Such a three-knuckle landing not only prevents the hand-bone behind any one knuckle from bearing all the punch-shock, but it also permits punching almost exactly along the power line. Rarely will one of those knuckles make a solo landing. But if you aim with the little knuckle, you risk a dangerous solo landing on forehead or blocking elbow.
Always aim with the second knuckle-the one next to your pinky-and LET THE OTHER KNUCKLES TAKE CARE OF THEMSELVES. They'll take care of themselves all right; for the shape of the fist makes it impossible for them to do otherwise.
Clench your right fist and inspect its knuckles. Your thumb knuckle is "out of the way"-completely separated from your row of four knuckles on the striking edge of your fist. More than that, your thumb knuckle is farthest away from your pinky knuckle-farthest away from the end of the power line. Nature took care of that. Never double-cross nature by trying to hit with that thumb knuckle, under any circumstance. It breaks easily. Keep it out of the way.
The knuckle of your index finger (the one next to the thumb) is fairly prominent, but not as prominent as the knuckle of your middle finger. In some face-punches and in most body-blows, that index knuckle will land with the other three, for a four-knuckle landing. That's okay, let the index knuckle come along for the ride. Under no circumstances, however, try to land first with that index knuckle. If you do, you'll not only break your power line, but you may also break your wrist.
Beware likewise of trying to land first with the prominent middle knuckle-the source of most hand injuries. Such aiming will slant your hand off the power line and, at the same time, endanger the middle knuckle and its hand-bone. When that middle knuckle makes a solo landing, its prominence prevents the other knuckles from helping to absorb some of the punch-shock. That shock or pressure is terrific in any full-fledged punch, particularly when you nail an opponent with a head blow just as he is stepping into you. In that split-second, your fist must withstand the shock-pressure of an explosive collision between two hurtling body-weights.
Let me repeat: If your punch is landed correctly, in power-line fashion, the three knuckles-pinky, second and middle-will share the pressure and distribute it over the three hand-bones behind the knuckles. That lessens the chance of bruising or crushing any one knuckle, or of fracturing any one hand-bone.[/size][/size]
Straight from Dempseys book. If you need a link to this btw feel free although I believe its on here.
Thatys very interesing LH but, i really have issues with the theory.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Harris
The theory is based upon a foundation of the stance being "heels together."
Obviously the stance would be altered for fighting and in doing so would the "powerline," not be altered??
Good point hitmandonny, Dempseys wording seems a little archaic now probably better described as a three knuckle landing, as opposed to a power line. Try it, arms length from wall in the fighting stance, with the vertical then horizontal. I mean guys, its whatever conveys most power efficently to yourselves, i have short hooking/uppercutting arms so need all the power I can get in my jabs. I did experiment with turning my jab over the way you should turn a straight right (from vertical on leaving your shoulder to diagonally down on impact) I found this good also.Quote:
Originally Posted by hitmandonny
Hitmandonny, all the best with your fight mate.
I'm not discrediting the idea by any means, i'm interested and i will try it at Training.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Harris
As for "turning," the jab i have noticed fighters such as Bernard Hopkins doing this when on the defensive, they wish to put some spite behind the jab to discourage advancing opponents.
As regards this topic, iv actually looked back on some old boxing pictorials and books i have. In most of boxings origin and manuals from the early days i can see that the fist is thrown vertically.
I even have a manual which illustrates 4 kinds of jabs.
1) the vertical fisted jab you use.
2)The traditional jab
3)A "flick jab" thrown from the elbow.
4)A jab with the palm up! almost like an uppercut!!!
I think im going to try and utilise the horizontal jab more on the bag and in sparring to see how it compares, the more punches in your armoury the better. Yeh I read about those types of jabs also! Its interesting the way some fighters used the jab as punishing weapon (Tyson when he could be bothered to use it, Larry Holmes, Lewis) while others use it merely to find range and discourage almost annoy.Quote:
Originally Posted by hitmandonny
To tell the truth, i used to use the jab myself as a battering ram, to back a guy up and use it as a valuable part of my combination arsenal, now tho its much more timid and more of a frustrating tool in order to keep guys off me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Harris
Interesting CC hitmandonny and Lord Harris
Plenty there to think about and I guess I'm more into trying it out than reading the theory initially at least so I'll do that some time when I don't have any bouts coming up to stress about :)
I guess I have small hands so I find that I manage to get my punches through most guards whether or not my fist is horizontal or vertical. I'd imagine a jab thrown with vertical fist might allow you to really load up on a cross following it though.
One of my coaches gets me to throw a long uppercut/jab with palm up sometimes. Seems to work well used occasionally when an opponent is expecting the normal jab. It's not seen or parried quite so easily.
I guess as a midget usually sparring bigger or stronger people I like to move back and counter a lot so I like to use a strong jab but perhaps I'll try the palm facing in jab when I really want to unload a cross or overhand.
CC returned, thanks Sharla.
At the moment, i'm using a quick, perpetually moving jab which worked well in sparring last night so i may practice it some more and apply it.
I have always, well, most always, tried to land my jab with my thumb towards the floor. Land the hook with my thumb towards the sky. I am familiar with Ned Beaumont's books and, in my opinion, you are asking for problems by following him. That's what happened to me.
If you extend your arm, fist closed, you'll see that the 'line' goes from your index knuckle straight up your arm. Those outside knuckles...pain, folks. Lots of pain when they get sprung. Look at the hands of any boxer or real martial artist and you'll notice the same thing: the index and middle knuckles are huge and typically permanently bruised while the outside two are pushed up to about their wrist.
You throw that left hook and try to land it with your palm down and you WILL screw up your hands and your wrist. When I was in Phoenix I worked with a dozen guys from this particular gym that taught that, landing the hook with the palm down. He said it gave you more power. Really? Everyone of those guys winced when he threw a hook. It is guaranteed to mess up your wrist and your knockles.
i agree.. ive done it both ways. you are correct about the injury being likely palms down. i think the few time i sparked my hand was throwing it this way... another good post greynotsoldQuote:
Originally Posted by greynotsoold
Beaumont just pretty much agrees wth what DEMPSEY says though...the jab vertical works for me anyway, it definatley gives me more snap/power. The hooks im not convinced on, it just feels awkward unless im at extremely colse range.Quote:
Originally Posted by greynotsoold
cc Grey. Good advice about the thumb down on the jab. But I think the shoulder joint is in a better position mechanically with the palm down on the hook - it's debatable but there's less tension on the bicep. Although, it has to be thrown properly to protect the two outmost knuckles. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by greynotsoold
Everyone's got their own thing based on their own style and body. But if you aren't being taught a palm down left hook, especially when throwing it inside, you're being disserviced. You turn the hook over, palm down, elbow up.
Good points all round.
For the sake of debate.....Look at page 32 of the July 2007 issue of Boxing Digest. Note the position of the fist as Marquez lands that hook. I think that, if you take a survey over the years of photos of left hook landing, the huge majority land with the thumb up. BUT....I think this is the source of the confusion. You start the punch with the thumb up, but end the left hook with the palm down and the knuckles touching your right shoulder, so it turns over en route...I don't think you are best served by landing it with the palm down.
To each his own, Grey. ;) The main thing imo is that newbs are at least TAUGHT to turn the hook over.
And also it is good to be able to do both as you may not lose the use of the hand because of the injury of one area of it,
We've had 2 trainers recently at our gym. One says vertical one says horizontal. I don't bloody know, but I find palm down a bit slower. I like the idea previously mentioned about when on the inside use palm up and outside or over with the left palm down. Seems to work and make sense. Either way if someone hits you hard you don't really notice if it's palm up or down i guess.
My coach is pretty strict on form and I have been taught to throw with the palm facing down when going to the head and with the palm vertical with a slight tilt when hitting the body.
I noticed on combinations on the bag that i get a harder dig when throwing to the body but when i throw to the head the punch is sharper and crisper if you throw the textbook way.
There's nothing wrong with a palm in hook to the head, but usually it's at longer range. And yes, palm down is a bit slower, but in close, you get that palm down and elbow up and it's deadyl.... like a battering ram effect. All the weight is behind the punch, while with a palm in, the elbow tends to drop and there's less weight behind your fist and more potetial for torque. It really is simple physics... force = lever cos theta.
IMO, one of the prettiest inside left hooks ever is Holyfield. I just love the way he throws it.
truth is the answer is neither...the p[unch is usually landed with the fist on a \ angle too much eiother way you risk injury to the wrist....
Side hooks to the body are best thrown verticle slightly upward motion for maximum impact...the upward motion pushes the inside of the body together
the hook to the head gets maximum impact as it is coming almost back towards you...the body expends all strength into the motion then on impact the muscles maximize contraction in a chain reaction sequence that sends the power all the way up from the furthest muscle away to the end of the fist....sort of in a sonic boom type fashion.....
I wish I had video on my comp to show exactly what I mean :-\
Turning shots does 2 main things gives good Biomechanics. The other is while the shoulders hitting the chin the opponents fist isnt its part of the defense mechanism.
Agreed. Evander was a great watch , the rhythm , the technique was brilliant. Evander came to play was willing to risk losing to win“. The mindset you want in fighterQuote:
Originally Posted by Von Milash
Thinking of this subject i decide to go search for a video of the best left hook iv ever seen....Sugar Ray Robinson vs. Carmen Basilio....you guys remember that? Unfortunately i couldn't locate it now, i have it at home il check it out later, but i saw a few vids of Robinson and he threw the hook palm down a lot, but also threw it palm in.
Another left hook that i recalled was the one in the final round between Oscar Bona vena and Muhammad Ali. Ali elivered that hook palm in althouh it connected on the blindside of the screen.
I hate to sound like a broken record, but range has quite a bit to do with it. You'll get more power with your palm down and elbow up when in tight. From farther away you don't need the elbow/battering ram/snap effect because you have more leverage to begin with.