Initial Impressions

Sometimes I very good at starting and other times very poor. I can usually do what i need to do - once I know what that is. I have a bad habit of going in on autopilot or assuming my opponent will be similar to one of my sparring partners and adopting the wrong tactics as a consequence.

Problem is theres often only a limited amount of time to work with and often the first round is the most important. I need to adjust and adapt within that first round rather than always assuming I'll sort it out after my coach has told me what to do in the break between rounds.

So my Q is - you know very little or nothing about your opponent. It's a competition bout so you're under pressure. The bell has just gone for the first round. What are the first things you usually do to/ observe of your opponent?

Im working on something similar with Feur,its hard to explain,but its rage/control

I have in the past been too intent on attacking when against a southpaw who loved that and just waited to counter - I was so intent on attacking I didn't pick up on the fact that it was working against me.

I've gone completely the other way and started out too defensive - just looking for the counter attack myself and assuming that my opponent would rush me and make it easy for me to counter them - not realising that she was very cautious of that and I was better off being aggressive and forcing her off balance rather than waiting for her to put herself out chasing me.

So what I'm trying to say is I'm not sure it's an emotional thing with me so much of a tactical thing. Sure the pressure of competition has an effect also but I'm thinking in my case it's more of an additive factor rather than the cause of the problem. I'm introducing role playing into my training more and trying to remember to be all the different things I've been taught to be at different times ie - in-fighter and out-fighter, aggressive and defensive, pace myself and power up etc etc.

I'm trying to mix it up within a round when training so I can change mid round in a bout but I'm also looking for some very simple initial tests or observations i can act on right at the start of that first round so i can find my groove as quickly as possible. That's what I'd really appreciate suggestions for.

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Originally Posted by Sharla

I have in the past been too intent on attacking when against a southpaw who loved that and just waited to counter - I was so intent on attacking I didn't pick up on the fact that it was working against me.

I've gone completely the other way and started out too defensive - just looking for the counter attack myself and assuming that my opponent would rush me and make it easy for me to counter them - not realising that she was very cautious of that and I was better off being aggressive and forcing her off balance rather than waiting for her to put herself out chasing me.

So what I'm trying to say is I'm not sure it's an emotional thing with me so much of a tactical thing. Sure the pressure of competition has an effect also but I'm thinking in my case it's more of an additive factor rather than the cause of the problem. I'm introducing role playing into my training more and trying to remember to be all the different things I've been taught to be at different times ie - in-fighter and out-fighter, aggressive and defensive, pace myself and power up etc etc.

I'm trying to mix it up within a round when training so I can change mid round in a bout but I'm also looking for some very simple initial tests or observations i can act on right at the start of that first round so i can find my groove as quickly as possible. That's what I'd really appreciate suggestions for.

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In alot of ways Feur has a similar problem sparring me,she knows the two things I live for is the inside,and I sit and wait on the jab.She knows I can block it all the live long day,and the second it hangs,Im coming.
Im having her abuse inanimate objects to get a feel for what its like to be well and truly pissed off while hitting something,and how to use it for her own good.

I know that emotion channeled correctly can add fuel to the fire. Thing is a fire that burns your own house down doesn't help you.

I know you've heard that women often are brought up not to get angry but to be honest I'd guess this is partially a cultural thing and partially an individual thing. I know there are girls who come to a boxercise class and don't want to hit anyone because they feel bad even though at that stage they haven't learnt to hit hard enough to squash a fly let alone the heavyweight coach with his hands up. I think most female fighters get past that stage though. Sounds to me from your other post like Feur tries to kill you sometimes in sparring so I'm kinda surprised to hear you say a lack of emotion is a problem for her.

In my own family I'd have to admit that the saying "hell hath no fury like a woman's scorn" might have been modelled after our women - just ask the men. :)

having said that I don't think i need to be angry to perform well. I know it works for some, I know it works against some and for me it only works rarely and in some situations. I DO need to channel the adrenalin I have in the right direction which is what this Q is about.

I was thinking when sizing up/feeling out an opponent people might first observe which hand is the lead hand and where it's held. Perhaps if they're leaning a certain way and then how they respond to a straight punch or where their hand returns to after they punch if they're first. Of course I'm thinking you'll choose what punch to push out based on your other initial observations.

So does that sound OK? Have I missed anything crucial or am I over-complicating things?

Still waters run deep comes to mind, througth expierience.Im with Andres way of thinking on this.

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Originally Posted by Sharla

I know that emotion channeled correctly can add fuel to the fire. Thing is a fire that burns your own house down doesn't help you.

I know you've heard that women often are brought up not to get angry but to be honest I'd guess this is partially a cultural thing and partially an individual thing. I know there are girls who come to a boxercise class and don't want to hit anyone because they feel bad even though at that stage they haven't learnt to hit hard enough to squash a fly let alone the heavyweight coach with his hands up. I think most female fighters get past that stage though. Sounds to me from your other post like Feur tries to kill you sometimes in sparring so I'm kinda surprised to hear you say a lack of emotion is a problem for her.

In my own family I'd have to admit that the saying "hell hath no fury like a woman's scorn" might have been modelled after our women - just ask the men. :)

having said that I don't think i need to be angry to perform well. I know it works for some, I know it works against some and for me it only works rarely and in some situations. I DO need to channel the adrenalin I have in the right direction which is what this Q is about.

I was thinking when sizing up/feeling out an opponent people might first observe which hand is the lead hand and where it's held. Perhaps if they're leaning a certain way and then how they respond to a straight punch or where their hand returns to after they punch if they're first. Of course I'm thinking you'll choose what punch to push out based on your other initial observations.

So does that sound OK? Have I missed anything crucial or am I over-complicating things?

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Definitly want to study different styles,itll give you a good heads up for what theyre going to do in there.
As far as Feur and me,its weird,if she ever fought anyone the way she fights me,itd be murder.
I think its the concept of your loved one taking a swing at you,just really hitting something primal.Thats why I missed that she might have issues with that,Im used to her coming after me like a loan shark who's owed money,so I just missed it.
Oh yeah,the girl she decked before her last fight,won the Brushfork Rough And Rowdy

I found this in one of Andre's recent posts:

But how much faster and reactive is the fighter who (then) trains contact reflexes on touch and movments so that the real move or the faint doesn't need thought, its a trained reaction that your muscles build memory to incorperated into the minds (as a knowing between the two systems) so the brain is free to utilze what you know even faster.
That leads into a style of fighter who is so comfortable in any situation that she /he moves into the zone when under extreme pressure and everything becomes automatic and more.

The key to to be able to fight like this is total exceptance of the moment so your emersed in it.

Much like living life to the full, stop thinking about it ,do it.


- I am constantly being told I think too much. Actually come to think of it many times I've been wronged by my persistence to stick to a prethought plan. I've fought according to what I expect based on things as ridiculous as a few kgs weight difference or a few cms height difference.

Having said that for the right action to come to you automatically don't you need to be semi-practiced in observing the openings and opportunities that are there? Tricky if you don't have a large variety of sparring partners to mix things up with?

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Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey

As far as Feur and me,its weird,if she ever fought anyone the way she fights me,itd be murder.
I think its the concept of your loved one taking a swing at you,just really hitting something primal.Thats why I missed that she might have issues with that,Im used to her coming after me like a loan shark who's owed money,so I just missed it.

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This makes me think of one thing one of my coaches said to me recently. he said that he developed much of his technique training when he wasn't competing. I've almost always trained with the aim of competing (unless injured) and so I've always wanted to keep the work rate up and work hard with every sparring session.

His theory is that every fighter can benefit from just having a 'play'. Just having some time to train without a competition in mind - to touch spar or spar very lightly and muck around with all the things you'd never risk against someone in a harder sparring session.

Perhaps take the agro out of everyday sparring with her, let her play and she'll enjoy unleashing the power in competition more. Maybe you're desensitizing her to the power too much so she doesn't react as much in competition? You know she's not weak so she shouldn't need to prove that.

Also like me it wouldn't suprise me if not having that play time when you both get to safely muck around with different strategies sort of limits the exposure she gets to different styles? Hard to use any emotion to fuel what you're doing if you're instantly confused because the action in front of you is too foreign?

Your coach I like the sound of him Sharla. Confusion is a killer to movement, I love the saying, Pain lasts a minute but the memory lasts forever more so if you havent got the answers. Analysing under pressure isnt the way to do it. Ive always found Bit Part Whole the best way to learn movement and Technique, you have to initialy spend time but explaining in detail saves time in the end. Plus you can have a laugth doing it.Plus the pupil understands why they are doing it and understand the reason behind it making it clear the reason for the action. Paralysis by Analysis is common usualy brought on by not understading levels distance angles and the biomechanics of movement to solve the problems at speed correctly, but getting hit hard on the chin does put a different angol on things ;D

I have to admit that while I know it's good to practice sparring with intensity sometimes and when things are working well it's fun - i always enjoy touch sparring - no matter how much of a goob I might be. I CAN laugh at myself when I mess up in touch sparring but it's not funny in normal sparring!

I've been trying to come up with more creative ways to keep things fresh in partnerwork and sparring recently but I'm not sure of how to do this with distancing since by now I know my training partners too well to be able to practice my distancing with them as if I've never sparred them before.

The only thing that was kinda weird I have tried for this is having one person aiming to work mostly on the inside and the other outboxing only so we are both constantly battling to work at a different range - we swap roles several times within the round. Does that sound like it will help anything? Can you suggest another simple exercise Scrap - or is it the kinda thing that's too difficult to explain quickly in the forum?

Hey Sharla, i no exactly how you feel on this subject...Usually i find how i start a fight and how i perform in a fight are closely related.

So what i feel you need to do is the following....
Don't dance move and keep a distance, this may see you running for the entire fight....do not run forward attacking as you cannot possibly do this for the entire fight...

What i do is walk forward to middle ring and get in range. From then on i use a light jab to tease his guard and perhaps a point or two...If he throws big punches i just move and get back with the tapping jab...I analyse how he deals with this, how he reacts and what his style is generally...I tap away at his guard until i think i no what his style may be...Then i throw the right cross and get working myself...If he slows down and stands off i usually find this is the stage at which he attempts to alter his style in order to approach me more effectively...at this point i revert and tap at his guard and perhaps body to see how he now wants to fight....

CC hitmandonny that sounds doable - not too much to remember but sensible for whatever kind of opponent I might get. I've got interclub sparring this weekend and might get to spar a stranger or two so will try it out then. :)

Thats great, interclub sparring is a brilliant way of getting expierience!!!

That thing i do, it's the same as just standing back and taking a look at the opponent. But obviously in boxing you have to do something or else you will be attacked yourself.
So i find thata good tactic as:
1)You get a chance to sit back
2)Your forcing him/her to react to your advances
3)Your not giving anything too critical away about your own style
4)As your seen to be jabbing the judges will see you as the more active fighter.

Hows training going Sharla? I'm nearly ready to kick into training for February now....think i'm gonna hit the weights next week, but i have to do up a full plan first.

I like all those points - especially the one about the judges - I often feel like there is a bit of an art to winning over the judges that is something separate from just being as effective as possible.

My training is sort of happening but not very structured. I'm having to take it one day at a time to work around uni commitments a bit. I have managed to prevent uni stuff from cutting into my actual boxing trainings too much but I have to be flexible to get in the conditioning workouts - include more of it as transport cycling or running or do really short sessions with sprints. Very haphazard!

At least the nationals will be in Queensland in December which will be really hot and the work I'm doing outside in the sun at the moment means I'll be the most heat acclimatized fighter there - just add flies and dirt and I'll have a real advantage! :) I swear soooo many flies - I go to sleep at night and I can still hear them!

You are very organized in advance. I have just under one month left and don't really have a firm plan except that I'll try to get in weights for the first three weeks and want to really work on improving my competition mentality.

Excact opposite issue Sharla,with anyone but me,she plays around too much,instead of getting her head in to the concept of,when the bell rings that person means you bad intent.With me it allways starts like we're playing,but usually by the second round,playtime is well and truly over with.

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Originally Posted by Sharla

I like all those points - especially the one about the judges - I often feel like there is a bit of an art to winning over the judges that is something separate from just being as effective as possible.

My training is sort of happening but not very structured. I'm having to take it one day at a time to work around uni commitments a bit. I have managed to prevent uni stuff from cutting into my actual boxing trainings too much but I have to be flexible to get in the conditioning workouts - include more of it as transport cycling or running or do really short sessions with sprints. Very haphazard!

At least the nationals will be in Queensland in December which will be really hot and the work I'm doing outside in the sun at the moment means I'll be the most heat acclimatized fighter there - just add flies and dirt and I'll have a real advantage! :) I swear soooo many flies - I go to sleep at night and I can still hear them!

You are very organized in advance. I have just under one month left and don't really have a firm plan except that I'll try to get in weights for the first three weeks and want to really work on improving my competition mentality.

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Well, the only reason im getting prepared so early is because it's easier for me this year as my college stuff is work based...
After that, it's because i want this bad...this is actually what i dreamed of when i started boxing to win a national senior title...
I got the motivation and the physical ability so hopefully i can pull it off.

And you will too!
How long you been training for this? How much have you sacrificed? Of course your going to do well!!!

Sharla,one thing you must have is Structure, what you do today affects tomorrow its all about biulding good foundations. If the foundations are wrong the structure is.

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Originally Posted by Trainer Monkey

Exact opposite issue Sharla,with anyone but me,she plays around too much,instead of getting her head in to the concept of,when the bell rings that person means you bad intent.With me it allways starts like we're playing,but usually by the second round,playtime is well and truly over with.

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With another female fighter it's less personal and there's probably less power coming her way consistently - so it makes sense that being used to hard sparring with you all the time she's not going to fire up as easily when against others. Might get easier for her to do that if you spar at a slightly lower intensity than she fights at though - so she has a reason to up her game in competition perhaps?

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Originally Posted by Scrap

Sharla,one thing you must have is Structure, what you do today affects tomorrow its all about building good foundations. If the foundations are wrong the structure is.

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Yeah I know. I'm just not very good at balancing things - still trying to work that out! :-[ With most shows other than the nationals or state titles I don't even know whether or not I have a match until a week or max 2 weeks before. With uni I have a similar problem - although with uni it's often because I underestimate how long things take - stupid things like finding functions in the updated Microsoft programs or getting posters to print properly etc. I find if I stress about not being able to stick to a structured program I'm never happy because at some stage things have to give.

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Originally Posted by Scrap

Sharla,one thing you must have is Structure, what you do today affects tomorrow its all about biulding good foundations. If the foundations are wrong the structure is.

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Thats so funny Scrap,when my adopted daughter was down this weekend and decided she wanted to learn some boxing,almost the exact words came out of my mouth.
We started on the jab,and she wasnt getting it,so I told her,"We'll keep doing it until you get it right,these are your building blocks.If you try to build a house with a bad foundation,its going to come down"
cc

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

I got the motivation and the physical ability so hopefully i can pull it off.

And you will too!
How long you been training for this? How much have you sacrificed? Of course your going to do well!!!

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Thanks for the encouragement hitmandonny :) I think you've got the kind of attitude that wins national titles ;)

Oh dont get me wrong,when she's off of suspension she'll rarely spar me,but the problem is,is she CAN goof off with all of her other sparring partners.Im the only one locally that will bring it with her.
I think alot of her issues with this last fight was also a total cluster f***
First we hire our cornerman,his father gets terminal cancer(I swear to god),our second and much pricier cornerman turns out to be busy that weekend,then the matchmaker promises us a cornerman,a few days before the fight we find out we dont have a corner because that guy wont be there.So she was totally alone out there like some weird scene from Oliver Twist,trying to get her own corner together,"Spare a cornerman Guv'nor"

cc Sharla....

Every time i think about them i start grinning, i no im going to be way younger than average and i no they will be more expierienced but i no im gonna do this.

I got a kid whom we put in the championships 4 entrys he turns up 3 pull out it happens

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Originally Posted by Scrap

I got a kid whom we put in the championships 4 entrys he turns up 3 pull out it happens

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Originally Posted by Scrap

I got a kid whom we put in the championships 4 entrys he turns up 3 pull out it happens

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Im either entering at 71kg or 75kg, their the two most competitive in terms of numbers of entrants so with the help of god there will be no walkovers!

I read once that the thing that kept Jack Sharkey- whom Ray Arcel called the best pure boxer he'd ever seen at heavyweight- from being a truly great fighter was emotion. He was too emotional, while great fighters operate in the eye of the hurricane. No emotion. I've always been a big believer in this concept.
The first round is the first stone of what you are trying to build, and I know that sounds very trite. Most, if not all, say to go out and land the first punch. For me, unless there is a big skill difference, I'd almost rather get hit the first punch. Keeps me from getting complacent, but that's just me. In that opening round, early, its good to clinch with your opponent, to feel their strength and to see how interested they are in working inside and how good they might be at it. Catch his jab in your glove to see how hard he's popping his punches. Feint a lot to feel out his reactions to your jab, to the idea of you going to his body, and so on. You don't want to throw punches just to throw them because that lets him see your reach and to begin to time you. You want to be just out of range of his punches so that you don't give away any of your defensive and counter ideas.
Watch Ricardo Lopez. He was a great 1st round fighter. But the important thing is that emotion has no place in it. You get hit, don't get mad. Figure out why you got hit and what to do about it. Save the hostility for the appropriate time.

CC Grey I'm with you on the emotion thing - for me as an individual until I know where to channel it and what to do with it I don't feel it helps.

I haven't really worked out whether or not it works for me to be hit first or to hit first myself. If they hit me first then sometimes it will register and I'll know what to avoid and other times landing a punch on them has given me an idea of exactly what my range has to be and I can go from there. I haven't been taught to clinch a lot and since I'm an amateur I won't be allowed to much.

I also get what you're saying with needing to test how strong they are and what type of fight they favour. I make too many assumptions based on weight sometimes. I think I'll go with what hitmandonny said and muck around with a few different ways of starting at interclub sparring this weekend. I'm glad you replied because it's given me the notion of just how much the best way to start could vary from individual to individual.

CC hitmandonny - your advice worked. Got to spar 2 new people on the weekend and I didn't start too badly even though they were both tall and i usually suck at dealing with tall people!

I won't say I knew exactly how to tackle them but I didn't start with mistakes and repeat them for an entire round. I think using your method I might be able to start as I'd mean to continue. If this works as well in competition and I still have trouble it will be because even at my best i haven't learnt how to deal with that style yet.

Glad to hear it Sharla-cc returned.

It's a good way to prevent them punching in the amateurs, they defend when they see the jab coming as they feel there has to be another behind it...and as you are laid back you can easily observe the moment where they decide to be aggresive.