Do you think a loss makes for a better fighter? Give a better legecy?
OK I know some of you will think I am crazy but...
Some guys we see go without a loss then we think they are a P4P fighter but once that loss happens...and lets be for real 99% of the time on the elite level the loss will come eventually....the guy is not the same fighter....they lose confidence..they become gun shy etc or what ever the case may be....Now those who do lose and come back stronger and better then before show some internal fortitude..grit or however you want to label it....
I guess what I am trying to say do you think after a loss it shows what the guy is truly made of?...I mean we are all great winners but IMO how a guy deals with a loss tells me more about them then anything.....
Perfect example is Paul Malinaggi...he fought his heart out against Cotto lost a hard fought battle but afterward just admitted his disappointment then came back with more motivation then before...shows he is a guy who knows how to cope....If that all makes sense :-\
any opps?
Re: Do you think a loss makes for a better fighter? Give a better legecy?
Not in all cases depends on the situation take Holmes for example, 1 win away from Marciano's record then he loses that didn't do his career any good at all :(
Re: Do you think a loss makes for a better fighter? Give a better legecy?
It all depends on the fighter and also how the loss came about. Some guys come back stronger and more motivated some dont come back at all.
Re: Do you think a loss makes for a better fighter? Give a better legecy?
Quote:
Originally Posted by beerjelly
It all depends on the fighter and also how the loss came about. Some guys come back stronger and more motivated some dont come back at all.
Agreed, all depends on the man. Look at Judah; after Kostya it seemed a fragility has been there ever since. He had some good wins after that, but he was never the same IMO.
We will soon find out about Taylor, not just with the rematch with Pavlik, but after that. I don't think he is mentally secure, but we will soon find out.
I have always wanted to see Mayweather lose, not because I am a hater, as I love the skills he has; but to see how ferocious he would be in returning. In a way we saw that with Castillo. Alot thought he lost the 1st fight, or close enough to question him, and he came back and put a clinic on Jose pretty much.
Jimmy Braddock is a good case of someone who loses but comes back to win in a big way.
Think Lennox Lewis was having any of that bullsh#t after Rahman khtfo? Look what happened the second time around.
And look at the new loser, Cintron. After Margarito punished him, he is pretty much mentally ruined, just look at how he is handling recent business. He may have won the fights after Tony, but look at his approach to the top guys. One more loss and he is finished.
Re: Do you think a loss makes for a better fighter? Give a better legecy?
Quote:
Originally Posted by LEGION
Quote:
Originally Posted by beerjelly
It all depends on the fighter and also how the loss came about. Some guys come back stronger and more motivated some dont come back at all.
Agreed, all depends on the man. Look at Judah; after Kostya it seemed a fragility has been there ever since. He had some good wins after that, but he was never the same IMO.
We will soon find out about Taylor, not just with the rematch with Pavlik, but after that. I don't think he is mentally secure, but we will soon find out.
I have always wanted to see Mayweather lose, not because I am a hater, as I love the skills he has; but to see how ferocious he would be in returning. In a way we saw that with Castillo. Alot thought he lost the 1st fight, or close enough to question him, and he came back and put a clinic on Jose pretty much.
Jimmy Braddock is a good case of someone who loses but comes back to win in a big way.
Think Lennox Lewis was having any of that bullsh#t after Rahman khtfo? Look what happened the second time around.
And look at the new loser, Cintron. After Margarito punished him, he is pretty much mentally ruined, just look at how he is handling recent business. He may have won the fights after Tony, but look at his approach to the top guys. One more loss and he is finished.
See Judah is a perfect example of my point...He has showed his true heart...since the loss he has never been the same...IMO a fighter that rebounds from a loss to continue his career with a positive outcome...perfect example you made in Braddock....tell you more on what kind of fighter he is...
IMO it takes a champion to be able to deal with a loss just as well as a win.....I am not one of those guys that believe that a loss is always a bad thing...sometimes it wakes a guy up
Re: Do you think a loss makes for a better fighter? Give a better legecy?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daxx Kahn
Quote:
Originally Posted by LEGION
Quote:
Originally Posted by beerjelly
It all depends on the fighter and also how the loss came about. Some guys come back stronger and more motivated some dont come back at all.
Agreed, all depends on the man. Look at Judah; after Kostya it seemed a fragility has been there ever since. He had some good wins after that, but he was never the same IMO.
We will soon find out about Taylor, not just with the rematch with Pavlik, but after that. I don't think he is mentally secure, but we will soon find out.
I have always wanted to see Mayweather lose, not because I am a hater, as I love the skills he has; but to see how ferocious he would be in returning. In a way we saw that with Castillo. Alot thought he lost the 1st fight, or close enough to question him, and he came back and put a clinic on Jose pretty much.
Jimmy Braddock is a good case of someone who loses but comes back to win in a big way.
Think Lennox Lewis was having any of that bullsh#t after Rahman khtfo? Look what happened the second time around.
And look at the new loser, Cintron. After Margarito punished him, he is pretty much mentally ruined, just look at how he is handling recent business. He may have won the fights after Tony, but look at his approach to the top guys. One more loss and he is finished.
See Judah is a perfect example of my point...He has showed his true heart...since the loss he has never been the same...IMO a fighter that rebounds from a loss to continue his career with a positive outcome...perfect example you made in Braddock....tell you more on what kind of fighter he is...
IMO it takes a champion to be able to deal with a loss just as well as a win.....I am not one of those guys that believe that a loss is always a bad thing...sometimes it wakes a guy up
Yeah the fight game is a strange thing and really shows you the inner workings of people. I'll take personally a guy like Micky Ward who wasn't great, but damn if you make him quit; in a fight or in his career. Don't people say the sweet science is 70% mental? I personally believe it is more than that. And though you can teach skills to anybody {though how they develop those skills in their own right will always differ} you cannot teach heart and intestinal fortitude. You either have it or you don't. So guys like Quarry, Ward, Corrales, Wilde; I'll take them anyday over the Judah's and Cintrons. I'd rather watch a warrior than a winner if that makes sense.
Re: Do you think a loss makes for a better fighter? Give a better legecy?
Quote:
Originally Posted by LEGION
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daxx Kahn
Quote:
Originally Posted by LEGION
Quote:
Originally Posted by beerjelly
It all depends on the fighter and also how the loss came about. Some guys come back stronger and more motivated some dont come back at all.
Agreed, all depends on the man. Look at Judah; after Kostya it seemed a fragility has been there ever since. He had some good wins after that, but he was never the same IMO.
We will soon find out about Taylor, not just with the rematch with Pavlik, but after that. I don't think he is mentally secure, but we will soon find out.
I have always wanted to see Mayweather lose, not because I am a hater, as I love the skills he has; but to see how ferocious he would be in returning. In a way we saw that with Castillo. Alot thought he lost the 1st fight, or close enough to question him, and he came back and put a clinic on Jose pretty much.
Jimmy Braddock is a good case of someone who loses but comes back to win in a big way.
Think Lennox Lewis was having any of that bullsh#t after Rahman khtfo? Look what happened the second time around.
And look at the new loser, Cintron. After Margarito punished him, he is pretty much mentally ruined, just look at how he is handling recent business. He may have won the fights after Tony, but look at his approach to the top guys. One more loss and he is finished.
See Judah is a perfect example of my point...He has showed his true heart...since the loss he has never been the same...IMO a fighter that rebounds from a loss to continue his career with a positive outcome...perfect example you made in Braddock....tell you more on what kind of fighter he is...
IMO it takes a champion to be able to deal with a loss just as well as a win.....I am not one of those guys that believe that a loss is always a bad thing...sometimes it wakes a guy up
Yeah the fight game is a strange thing and really shows you the inner workings of people. I'll take personally a guy like Micky Ward who wasn't great, but damn if you make him quit; in a fight or in his career. Don't people say the sweet science is 70% mental? I personally believe it is more than that. And though you can teach skills to anybody {though how they develop those skills in their own right will always differ} you cannot teach heart and intestinal fortitude. You either have it or you don't. So guys like Quarry, Ward, Corrales, Wilde; I'll take them anyday over the Judah's and Cintrons. I'd rather watch a warrior than a winner if that makes sense.
Absolutly makes sense especially consider when you look and think about it there have been a whole lot of paper champions with zero heart that caight the right guy at the right time to win the belt and on any other night they would still be obscure
Re: Do you think a loss makes for a better fighter? Give a better legecy?
Call me a skeptic but I am always a little weary of a perfect unblimished record.Might sound odd but Facing the ultimate adversity via Defeat can tell you alot about there fortitude and character.Not to say that Undefeated's have not faced adversity,You can look into ANY undefeated record and find bumps in the road,be they draws,bad descisions,technical win's etc.
I really dont think you fully know about a fighter or "what" might have been until they are forced to deal with a lose or some serious threats.Did they fight through bad cuts,Climb off the mat from knockdown,gut out a war only to win by a point?Or were they just good to avoid it?You cant fault them for that either.
IMo,Records as a whole are overrated.Its a case by case process.Its not how many losses or wins you have,Its the how you arrived there.Adversity builds character.
Re: Do you think a loss makes for a better fighter? Give a better legecy?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spicoli surfs In 'Nawlins
Call me a skeptic but I am always a little weary of a perfect unblimished record.Might sound odd but Facing the ultimate adversity via Defeat can tell you alot about there fortitude and character.Not to say that Undefeated's have not faced adversity,You can look into ANY undefeated record and find bumps in the road,be they draws,bad descisions,technical win's etc.
I really dont think you fully know about a fighter or "what" might have been until they are forced to deal with a lose or some serious threats.Did they fight through bad cuts,Climb off the mat from knockdown,gut out a war only to win by a point?Or were they just good to avoid it?You cant fault them for that either.
IMo,Records as a whole are overrated.Its a case by case process.Its not how many losses or wins you have,Its the how you arrived there.Adversity builds character.
Yep, and this is one reason I like that warrior mentality. Look at Pavlik when JT put him down. People want to say JT lost that fight in the second round. I don't see it that way. Pavlik immediately jumped up and not only withstood the fire, but didn't run and hide the rest of the round, he went right back into JT and basically said, here I am do your best. JT didn't lose the fight in that round; Pavlik won the fight in that round. That is what it is all about IMO.
And though I hate to discredit Duran for his "No Mas" fiasco, I could never understand how a guy that had been to hell and back could just give up and say he didn't want it anymore like that. As great as Duran was, I always remember that about him before anything else. That always puzzled me :-\
Re: Do you think a loss makes for a better fighter? Give a better legecy?
I think a better question is "what's in the average American mind set that likes and admires a loser over a winner?"
You always here about how the guy that loss "fought a great, brave fight"
Now,if the loser fought a so-called great fight what the hell kind of fight did the actual WINNER fight?
Re: Do you think a loss makes for a better fighter? Give a better legecy?
Quote:
Originally Posted by winscomeez
I think a better question is "what's in the average American mind set that likes and admires a loser over a winner?"
You always here about how the guy that loss "fought a great, brave fight"
Now,if the loser fought a so-called great fight what the hell kind of fight did the actual WINNER fight?
What the hell is "The average American minset" supposed to mean....
Tell ya what...your a loser and no one admires you...reguardless where they are from...
Have the first SCX of the year on me
Re: Do you think a loss makes for a better fighter? Give a better legecy?
Quote:
Originally Posted by winscomeez
I think a better question is "what's in the average American mind set that likes and admires a loser over a winner?"
You always here about how the guy that loss "fought a great, brave fight"
Now,if the loser fought a so-called great fight what the hell kind of fight did the actual WINNER fight?
...I doubt anyone admires a loser over a winner, I'm American and I don't admire a loser....they can show courage and heart in a losing effort but no one admires that over victory!
George C. Scott as General George S. Patton (both AMERICANS)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDecLiA_Qbw
That's MY view on winning bro
Re: Do you think a loss makes for a better fighter? Give a better legecy?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daxx Kahn
Quote:
Originally Posted by LEGION
Quote:
Originally Posted by beerjelly
It all depends on the fighter and also how the loss came about. Some guys come back stronger and more motivated some dont come back at all.
Agreed, all depends on the man. Look at Judah; after Kostya it seemed a fragility has been there ever since. He had some good wins after that, but he was never the same IMO.
We will soon find out about Taylor, not just with the rematch with Pavlik, but after that. I don't think he is mentally secure, but we will soon find out.
I have always wanted to see Mayweather lose, not because I am a hater, as I love the skills he has; but to see how ferocious he would be in returning. In a way we saw that with Castillo. Alot thought he lost the 1st fight, or close enough to question him, and he came back and put a clinic on Jose pretty much.
Jimmy Braddock is a good case of someone who loses but comes back to win in a big way.
Think Lennox Lewis was having any of that bullsh#t after Rahman khtfo? Look what happened the second time around.
And look at the new loser, Cintron. After Margarito punished him, he is pretty much mentally ruined, just look at how he is handling recent business. He may have won the fights after Tony, but look at his approach to the top guys. One more loss and he is finished.
See Judah is a perfect example of my point...He has showed his true heart...since the loss he has never been the same...IMO a fighter that rebounds from a loss to continue his career with a positive outcome...perfect example you made in Braddock....tell you more on what kind of fighter he is...
IMO it takes a champion to be able to deal with a loss just as well as a win.....I am not one of those guys that believe that a loss is always a bad thing...sometimes it wakes a guy up
Judah is a bad example. Before the Tszyu loss he was a title holder. A title that was given to him on a silver platter after it was stripped unjustly from Terron Millett. After the Tszyu loss he went on to become undisputed Welterweight champion. Undisputed. Not just a title holder. So he actually accomplished more after his loss than before. So I don't see him as being ruined after his first loss.
Based on his recent comments and non-stopped crying, I wouldn't be surprised if Hatton is ruined after his recent loss
Re: Do you think a loss makes for a better fighter? Give a better legecy?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent Demise
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daxx Kahn
Quote:
Originally Posted by LEGION
Quote:
Originally Posted by beerjelly
It all depends on the fighter and also how the loss came about. Some guys come back stronger and more motivated some dont come back at all.
Agreed, all depends on the man. Look at Judah; after Kostya it seemed a fragility has been there ever since. He had some good wins after that, but he was never the same IMO.
We will soon find out about Taylor, not just with the rematch with Pavlik, but after that. I don't think he is mentally secure, but we will soon find out.
I have always wanted to see Mayweather lose, not because I am a hater, as I love the skills he has; but to see how ferocious he would be in returning. In a way we saw that with Castillo. Alot thought he lost the 1st fight, or close enough to question him, and he came back and put a clinic on Jose pretty much.
Jimmy Braddock is a good case of someone who loses but comes back to win in a big way.
Think Lennox Lewis was having any of that bullsh#t after Rahman khtfo? Look what happened the second time around.
And look at the new loser, Cintron. After Margarito punished him, he is pretty much mentally ruined, just look at how he is handling recent business. He may have won the fights after Tony, but look at his approach to the top guys. One more loss and he is finished.
See Judah is a perfect example of my point...He has showed his true heart...since the loss he has never been the same...IMO a fighter that rebounds from a loss to continue his career with a positive outcome...perfect example you made in Braddock....tell you more on what kind of fighter he is...
IMO it takes a champion to be able to deal with a loss just as well as a win.....I am not one of those guys that believe that a loss is always a bad thing...sometimes it wakes a guy up
Judah is a bad example. Before the Tszyu loss he was a title holder. A title that was given to him on a silver platter after it was stripped unjustly from Terron Millett. After the Tszyu loss he went on to become undisputed Welterweight champion. Undisputed. Not just a title holder. So he actually accomplished more after his loss than before. So I don't see him as being ruined after his first loss.
Based on his recent comments and non-stopped crying, I wouldn't be surprised if Hatton is ruined after his recent loss
Actually you're right; so I stand corrected about KT "ruining" him. Though he does seem, I won't say ruined, but mentally zoned out or gone now in his last couple of years. So it happened somewhere, but like you said not per say by Kostya. Who did it to him then, Baldomir? Is that when the seeming collapse came? Anyways, good post VD.
Re: Do you think a loss makes for a better fighter? Give a better legecy?
Joe Louis was KO'd by Max Schmelling right when he was considered the heir apparent but he didn't lose again until like 1950
Re: Do you think a loss makes for a better fighter? Give a better legecy?
Quote:
Originally Posted by winscomeez
I think a better question is "what's in the average American mind set that likes and admires a loser over a winner?"
You always here about how the guy that loss "fought a great, brave fight"
Now,if the loser fought a so-called great fight what the hell kind of fight did the actual WINNER fight?
Lets open the lid and define Mind Set.The winner WON over tough brave fighter,Speaks for itself.Dont be a simplistic putts and Introuduce Nationalism and broad generalities. we all get knockdown,Its how you comeback to victory and overcome so you Do NOT lose again.
Re: Do you think a loss makes for a better fighter? Give a better legecy?
I think Tszyu certainly took his first loss well after his shock loss to Vince Phillips. His record after that loss was exceptional and did not lose again for 8 years, some fighters do not handle it well, Naz for example. Malignaggi lost to the best in his division at the time in Cotto no shame there.
Going back a bit here but Duran's first loss did him no harm in 1972, not losing again until the 2nd Leonard fight and avenging his first defeat twice against De Jesus. You could argue that first losses to Foreman, Holmes and Tyson all had a negative impact on their careers.
Mosley had a bad couple of years after losing to Forrest and RJJ did not take the first Tarver loss very well at all. (Forget the Griffin DQ against him)
Hatton will be interesting to watch in 2008.
Re: Do you think a loss makes for a better fighter? Give a better legecy?
yes, how one deals with defeat is a test of character, and the greatest fighters are the ones who overcome it. ali wih frazier for example, or SRL with Duran. In contrast, Chavez ducked whitiaker after he outboxed him but it is prince naseem hamed that takes the cake for falling apart after a loss...a pity b/c he was very aggresive in that fight with Barrera, and he certainly had the skils to pull a SRL (as in duran II) in a second fight.
Re: Do you think a loss makes for a better fighter? Give a better legecy?
Well, lets look at Judah a different way. I've always been a hater. I don't like the way he acts, the way he derides people.
The fight of his where I gained respect for him was the Cotto fight, where he suffered a pretty bad beating.
That fight he finally showed the things that had been missing his whole career - heart and discipline. He weathered the storms as best he could and only stopped after giving his all. That made me respect him. I'll never be a fan of his, but that performance earned my respect and so what that he lost the fight?
Re: Do you think a loss makes for a better fighter? Give a better legecy?
Well I assume this has already been said, but for me a loss can enhance a career if the fighter reacts well and comes back to redeem himself and if the nature of the loss was not too devastating.
Examples of where losses enhanced careers are available when one considers the cases of Barrera, Jones Jr. and Tszyu. These guys got beaten (Junior Jones, Griffin and Phillips) yet came back to be as good or better than before.
