Pac vs JMM (rematch) vote and explain

First of all, Happy New Years everybody!!!! and I hope everyone will have a great two thousand and eight :party:

Ok one of the biggest fight already made for this year is on March 15, 2008. It features two of the best pound for pound fighters in the boxing world. We have the champ Juan Manuel Marquez versus the challenger Manny Pacquiao for the 130 pound World Title at Mandalay Bay Las Vegas, Nevada. Will be promoted by TRP and GBP.

Today is the very first day of 2008, January 1st. We have 75 days til March 15, 2008 to cast our votes for the long awaited rematch between the current number two best pound for pound Pacquiao and current number four pound for pound Marquez.

Rules are simple:

We have 75 days til fight night, it means we have 75 days til votes are final.
You can only choose one option
you may only see the results after you have submitted your vote.
You are allowed to change votes but you must explain why
And everybody must give a valid reason on why they choose the option they voted.

Please no "I vote for pac cause I want to" or "I vote for jmm cause I like him better". Not all of us will agree but atleast lets give more then what we feel. Lets put some logic in to this and have a good debate.

Ding ding ding, lets get in on guys 8)

Pac by KO.

JMM has the SKILLS, no doubt. But a better speed, power, stamina, and granite chin... KILLS, which Pac possessed.

Pac by 3...naw I'll go for 2! All pac needs to do is to bulldoze Marquez, take few in and give some in return, and as soon a Marquez take some big ones it's done, IMO...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pacfan

Pac by 3...naw I'll go for 2! All pac needs to do is to bulldoze Marquez, take few in and give some in return, and as soon a Marquez take some big ones it's done, IMO...

---

Its not just as straight forward as your saying, remember Marquez knows what he is up against this time. He won't make the same mistake as he did the 1st time and get caught cold early. I think Marquez will be very cautious in early going, just to relax and get warmed up i expect Pacquiao to take the early rounds. But once Marquez gets his rhythm going i think he will use his excellent countering abilities to win a UD in a tough fight.

Like I said in the other topic, if Morales kept Pac off of him in their first fight, Marquez will be more than able to do it too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sugar_shaw

Like I said in the other topic, if Morales kept Pac off of him in their first fight, Marquez will be more than able to do it too.

---

yea the problem is, pac isn't the same fighter he was now then the one eric first fought. dont you think?

That also showed in their second fight, pac had to improve himself to beat eric the second time and third time around and pac did.

I really don't think jmm can just counter himself to victory or keep pac off him and win rounds. Just like marco tried to do, he did avoided most of pacs aggression but in doing so he couldn't win rounds. IMO this will be the same problem for marquez, you can not just counter pac. Its not that easy, you must go forward also. You must take risk to win rounds against pac, just like eric did in the first fight. People are not understandind the fact that eric didn't just kept pac off. He beat him going backwards and forward. Imo erics natural advantage such as his height played a huge roll in beating pac the first time. JMM does not have height over pac or other physical advantage like eric did. I just can't see anyone thats not bigger beating pac while avoiding his explosive rallies.

I don't know why some people are saying pac did not look good in his past two fights? He dominated pretty easily. He took solis out, when he felt that it was time to. solis is not an elite but his a good b level undefeated fighter. He easily cruise into a u.d over a guy jmm nearly lost to. He landed over 50% of his powershots in that fight, how can anyone say that was a bad performance. IMO they are just use to pac being so violence that everytime he does not finish off his oppenent via ko or tko, its a bad performance. IMO thats the beggining of a new pacman, the kind that can box before he brawls.

If we look at jmm's recent fights, he dominated juarez easily. He went the distance in a very hard fought battle against marco and before that he fought some southpaw lesser fighters but he was hit a lot of times. IMO southpaws will always give jmm trouble and if you add pacs speed,power,stamina,relentless,and skills its hard to argue that marquez will just win via u.d cause he countered and kept pac off.

IMO theres only one way to beat pac and thats through him not going away from him. Like i said earlier, eric didn't just kept pac off he also took risk and beat him going towards and through pac. LOOK at all three of pacs lost, noun of them beat them by just keeping away. They all went through him to beat him. At this level of pacs career, its nearly suicidal to try and go through him. IMO if you don't, you may avoid most of his aggression for 12 rounds but you won't win enough rounds in doing so. Its a totally different pac then the one jmm first fought, thats for sure. IMO people are totally buying into the impression that it'll be the same fight. I think not, i don't think there will be an early knock down for pac and I don't think there will be a late rally for jmm and just counter himself to victory.

I think they'll measure eachother up for the first three rounds. After that they'll start landing a lot more, and imo its not jmms advantage if it goes on to the later rounds. I think pacs speed and misdirection shots will continue to get more and more frustrating for marquez. I can see the fight being competetive til the 10th round. Maybe 6 rounds to 4 for pac, but afterwards pacs speed,stamina and power will wash jmm up and finish him late.

Pac has changed but his basis is still the same.
Morales beat him using boxing skills though, an area in which Marquez is bette than Morales in.
Marquez has a solid defence so he can take risks.
Pacquiao's camp have never been the most tactically astute in Manny's fights.
People who beat Marquez out speed him, pac could, but won't. It's not his style.
Pacquiao's speed is incredibly overrated, and Marquez's underrated. Pac's fast but not that much more than JMM.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sugar_shaw

Like I said in the other topic, if Morales kept Pac off of him in their first fight, Marquez will be more than able to do it too.

---

I somehow think this is the way to beat Pac. Pac, as we know, has shown that he has KO in his punches so exchanging with him is not a good idea. Morales fought a smart fight the first time gliding easily to a victory by just keeping him away with jabs, straights, one-two, etc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Julius Marvelous Rain

I really don't think jmm can just counter himself to victory or keep pac off him and win rounds. Just like marco tried to do, he did avoided most of pacs aggression but in doing so he couldn't win rounds.

---

Barrera was too cautious and was basically there to survive, you cannot compare that to Marquez who will be very hungry and there to win. And Marquez will also take advantage of countering opportunities unlike Barrera did, If you Pacquiao fans think that Pacquiao is just going to just blow away Marquez you have got another thing coming. And although Pacquiao does has head movement, Pacquiao squares his shoulders up and leaves countering opportunities.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Julius Marvelous Rain

Its not that easy, you must go forward also. You must take risk to win rounds against pac, just like eric did in the first fight.

---

And Marquez done that very well in the 1st fight, he took risks when he needed to and picked his shots very well. He fought a great fight by countering Pacquiao and also choosing when to be aggressive.

I vote for Marquez cuz he's the better fighter. And by all rights has already beaten Pac. He just didn't get the decision.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Violent Demise

I vote for Marquez cuz he's the better fighter. And by all rights has already beaten Pac. He just didn't get the decision.

---

Yeah I agree actually.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Violent Demise

I vote for Marquez cuz he's the better fighter. And by all rights has already beaten Pac. He just didn't get the decision.

---

I think a lot of people think because Pacquiao has a lot of head movement that he isn't easy to hit. When thats false, because Pacquiao squares his shoulders up and he leaves a lot of countering opportunities. I also see a lot of people saying Marquez won't be able to pull of a miracle like he did the 1st time. But do people honestly think a great fighter like Marquez will be caught cold and off guard twice ?? i also think Marquez won the 1st fight i believe i had it 8 rounds to 4 for Marquez. The key to this fight for Marquez is countering and timing, he has to time Pacquiao's feints take a step back then rattle off a few quick sharp punches, then get out of there. I think Marquez should basically fight the same fight as he did the 1st time without the 1st round of course, he basically fought the perfect blueprint on how to beat Pacquiao. And if Marquez uses his tactics correctly by choosing when to be aggressive and when not to i think he will win a clear cut UD.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ice Cold Boxing

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Julius Marvelous Rain

I really don't think jmm can just counter himself to victory or keep pac off him and win rounds. Just like marco tried to do, he did avoided most of pacs aggression but in doing so he couldn't win rounds.

---

Barrera was too cautious and was basically there to survive, you cannot compare that to Marquez who will be very hungry and there to win. And Marquez will also take advantage of countering opportunities unlike Barrera did, If you Pacquiao fans think that Pacquiao is just going to just blow away Marquez you have got another thing coming. And although Pacquiao does has head movement, Pacquiao squares his shoulders up and leaves countering opportunities.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Julius Marvelous Rain

Its not that easy, you must go forward also. You must take risk to win rounds against pac, just like eric did in the first fight.

---

And Marquez done that very well in the 1st fight, he took risks when he needed to and picked his shots very well. He fought a great fight by countering Pacquiao and also choosing when to be aggressive.

---

hunger was the same reason people thought mab had a chance in their rematch, but it all went away after he was actually in the ring with pac again. I actually said pac will stop jmm in the later rounds, not he'll blow jmm away easily. Its actually jmm fans that think he'll win easy just cause he can counter and go the distant? Its really not that simple thats why I made this thread so we can put our heads together not our groupies and feelings.

JMM has prove he has the guts and will to survive cause he did that in the first fight, but its really an overstatement when his fans say he'll win cause they think he won the first fight. Thats really not what I was hoping to hear from our members here in saddo. I was hoping for more conclusive facts such as, JMM does have heart, he can throw punches from all angles and does have a decent defense. Then lets look at pac and tell the truth. His NOT the same one demensional fighter jmm survived against. Those are facts and lets try to stick to unbias posting.

We all have our favorite and obviously pac is mine but lets try to be unbias. IMO if JMM is to win his going to need to take advantage of pacs out of control balance sometimes. I don't think he'll win enough rounds trying to stay away from pac, his going to need to find that moment when pac is out of balance but still be aware that pac still can throw hard punches from being off balance so IMO Jmm has got to stay on his toe and when those moment comes he needs to jump on that opportunity to make pac look bad. Those are the best way he'll win rounds against pac now.

It could become just like the mab fight though, lets not forget going into that fight many believe mab was hungry for revenge and now people are saying JMM is hungry to prove himself. There are hypes in every fight its amazing how much we still fall for the hype but when its fight night most of the time its the opposite. Lets leave the hype out of it. Lets put some individual logical thoughts into this. IMO pac will stop marquez in the later rounds, his speed, stamina and power will eventually overwhelm 34 year old marquez. Then sadly the "washed up" or "old" excuses will be unleashed once again in attempt to discredit pac for a great win.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ice Cold Boxing

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Violent Demise

I vote for Marquez cuz he's the better fighter. And by all rights has already beaten Pac. He just didn't get the decision.

---

I think a lot of people think because Pacquiao has a lot of head movement that he isn't easy to hit. When thats false, because Pacquiao squares his shoulders up and he leaves a lot of countering opportunities. I also see a lot of people saying Marquez won't be able to pull of a miracle like he did the 1st time. But do people honestly think a great fighter like Marquez will be caught cold and off guard twice ?? i also think Marquez won the 1st fight i believe i had it 8 rounds to 4 for Marquez. The key to this fight for Marquez is countering and timing, he has to time Pacquiao's feints take a step back then rattle off a few quick sharp punches, then get out of there. I think Marquez should basically fight the same fight as he did the 1st time without the 1st round of course, he basically fought the perfect blueprint on how to beat Pacquiao. And if Marquez uses his tactics correctly by choosing when to be aggressive and when not to i think he will win a clear cut UD.

---

See your still stuck on the first fight, its where your totally wrong cause your not considering the big difference in the pacman then and the pac of now. Pac threw the same two jab-straight left all night at JMM in that first fight. It was pretty basic but JMM still had a hard time simply becuase pacs speed and dangerous power. You also stated that people think pac is hard to hit cause he has good head movement. Im not sure who said that but that is barely the reason why people think pac wins fights.IMO pac does that for offense first rather then a defensive tactic. He moves his whole upper body not just head movements side to side to give his oppenent different looks and angles it gives pac the hesitant second to land a misleading punch or some quick straights. Hopefully your actually watching footage cause if you are, eric did that in the first fight against pac. He use pacs body movement tactic against pac, marco also tried it in the rematch but it didn't work for him.

Another thing I would like to add that cause pac trouble is taunting him, eric did a lot of it during the first fight which made pac hesitant and a bit out of his comfort zone. That and what I stated earlier in my post helped eric to beat pac. Im so disspointed not many here do not see these basic facts and are quick to claim that pac will just lose cause eric beat him that lead them to conclude jmm will beat him too just cause....Come on first of all pac was a lot younger and raw those days and they still base it on those past fights but them themselve don't really see the true factors that led to pac losing to eric or a draw with jmm.

Man wheres CUTMEMICK, Im sure he'll give some good thoughts into why either JMM or pac will win rather then whats already been said in this thread which is dissapointing since this is a well respected boxing forum.

For the record I have not cast in my vote, cause even though im a bigger fan of pac then a fan of jmm I am open to changing my opinion that pac will win in the later round. Like in the mab pac rematch I was persuaded by a great member in this forum to change my pick from pac to mab. Although I was wrong to change my pick, that member put out some great point for me to change my pick. I won't name that person. Hopefully someone again can be unbias and can provide some well thought out points like he did to why either Pac or JMM will win.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Julius Marvelous Rain

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ice Cold Boxing

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Violent Demise

I vote for Marquez cuz he's the better fighter. And by all rights has already beaten Pac. He just didn't get the decision.

---

I think a lot of people think because Pacquiao has a lot of head movement that he isn't easy to hit. When thats false, because Pacquiao squares his shoulders up and he leaves a lot of countering opportunities. I also see a lot of people saying Marquez won't be able to pull of a miracle like he did the 1st time. But do people honestly think a great fighter like Marquez will be caught cold and off guard twice ?? i also think Marquez won the 1st fight i believe i had it 8 rounds to 4 for Marquez. The key to this fight for Marquez is countering and timing, he has to time Pacquiao's feints take a step back then rattle off a few quick sharp punches, then get out of there. I think Marquez should basically fight the same fight as he did the 1st time without the 1st round of course, he basically fought the perfect blueprint on how to beat Pacquiao. And if Marquez uses his tactics correctly by choosing when to be aggressive and when not to i think he will win a clear cut UD.

---

See your still stuck on the first fight, its where your totally wrong cause your not considering the big difference in the pacman then and the pac of now. Pac threw the same two jab-straight left all night at JMM in that first fight. It was pretty basic but JMM still had a hard time simply becuase pacs speed and dangerous power. You also stated that people think pac is hard to hit cause he has good head movement. Im not sure who said that but that is barely the reason why people think pac wins fights.IMO pac does that for offense first rather then a defensive tactic. He moves his whole upper body not just head movements side to side to give his oppenent different looks and angles it gives pac the hesitant second to land a misleading punch or some quick straights. Hopefully your actually watching footage cause if you are, eric did that in the first fight against pac. He use pacs body movement tactic against pac, marco also tried it in the rematch but it didn't work for him.

Another thing I would like to add that cause pac trouble is taunting him, eric did a lot of it during the first fight which made pac hesitant and a bit out of his comfort zone. That and what I stated earlier in my post helped eric to beat pac. Im so disspointed not many here do not see these basic facts and are quick to claim that pac will just lose cause eric beat him that lead them to conclude jmm will beat him too just cause....Come on first of all pac was a lot younger and raw those days and they still base it on those past fights but them themselve don't really see the true factors that led to pac losing to eric or a draw with jmm.

Man wheres CUTMEMICK, Im sure he'll give some good thoughts into why either JMM or pac will win rather then whats already been said in this thread which is dissapointing since this is a well respected boxing forum.

---

Mick thinks Marquez will win a UD, and i don't like what your implying either. Like are opinion isn't good enough.

You keep saying about these major improvement's but i didn't see any major improvements in Pacquiao in his last fight. He looked sloppy and if he fights Marquez the same way he will get beaten clearly.

Pacquiao has improved since the Marquez fight but it isn't *Major* improvements. Marquez can still work him out like i said earlier timing is the key here. Pacquiao is fast but the way to beat speed is timing. And Marquez is good at timing his opponent and then countering and getting out of there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Julius Marvelous Rain

For the record I have not cast in my vote, cause even though im a bigger fan of pac then a fan of jmm I am open to changing my opinion that pac will win in the later round. Like in the mab pac rematch I was persuaded by a great member in this forum to change my pick from pac to mab. Although I was wrong to change my pick, that member put out some great point for me to change my pick. I won't name that person. Hopefully someone again can be unbias and can provide some well thought out points like he did to why either Pac or JMM will win.

---

I thought you changed your pick because you was a long time fan of Barrera ?? plus you was going with your heart and not your head ?? i really don't know what else i can say, i have brought up all the reasons i think Marquez will win without being biased.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ice Cold Boxing

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Julius Marvelous Rain

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ice Cold Boxing

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Violent Demise

I vote for Marquez cuz he's the better fighter. And by all rights has already beaten Pac. He just didn't get the decision.

---

I think a lot of people think because Pacquiao has a lot of head movement that he isn't easy to hit. When thats false, because Pacquiao squares his shoulders up and he leaves a lot of countering opportunities. I also see a lot of people saying Marquez won't be able to pull of a miracle like he did the 1st time. But do people honestly think a great fighter like Marquez will be caught cold and off guard twice ?? i also think Marquez won the 1st fight i believe i had it 8 rounds to 4 for Marquez. The key to this fight for Marquez is countering and timing, he has to time Pacquiao's feints take a step back then rattle off a few quick sharp punches, then get out of there. I think Marquez should basically fight the same fight as he did the 1st time without the 1st round of course, he basically fought the perfect blueprint on how to beat Pacquiao. And if Marquez uses his tactics correctly by choosing when to be aggressive and when not to i think he will win a clear cut UD.

---

See your still stuck on the first fight, its where your totally wrong cause your not considering the big difference in the pacman then and the pac of now. Pac threw the same two jab-straight left all night at JMM in that first fight. It was pretty basic but JMM still had a hard time simply becuase pacs speed and dangerous power. You also stated that people think pac is hard to hit cause he has good head movement. Im not sure who said that but that is barely the reason why people think pac wins fights.IMO pac does that for offense first rather then a defensive tactic. He moves his whole upper body not just head movements side to side to give his oppenent different looks and angles it gives pac the hesitant second to land a misleading punch or some quick straights. Hopefully your actually watching footage cause if you are, eric did that in the first fight against pac. He use pacs body movement tactic against pac, marco also tried it in the rematch but it didn't work for him.

Another thing I would like to add that cause pac trouble is taunting him, eric did a lot of it during the first fight which made pac hesitant and a bit out of his comfort zone. That and what I stated earlier in my post helped eric to beat pac. Im so disspointed not many here do not see these basic facts and are quick to claim that pac will just lose cause eric beat him that lead them to conclude jmm will beat him too just cause....Come on first of all pac was a lot younger and raw those days and they still base it on those past fights but them themselve don't really see the true factors that led to pac losing to eric or a draw with jmm.

Man wheres CUTMEMICK, Im sure he'll give some good thoughts into why either JMM or pac will win rather then whats already been said in this thread which is dissapointing since this is a well respected boxing forum.

---

Mick thinks Marquez will win a UD, and i don't like what your implying either. Like are opinion isn't good enough.

You keep saying about these major improvement's but i didn't see any major improvements in Pacquiao in his last fight. He looked sloppy and if he fights Marquez the same way he will get beaten clearly.

Pacquiao has improved since the Marquez fight but it isn't *Major* improvements. Marquez can still work him out like i said earlier timing is the key here. Pacquiao is fast but the way to beat speed is timing. And Marquez is good at timing his opponent and then countering and getting out of there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Julius Marvelous Rain

For the record I have not cast in my vote, cause even though im a bigger fan of pac then a fan of jmm I am open to changing my opinion that pac will win in the later round. Like in the mab pac rematch I was persuaded by a great member in this forum to change my pick from pac to mab. Although I was wrong to change my pick, that member put out some great point for me to change my pick. I won't name that person. Hopefully someone again can be unbias and can provide some well thought out points like he did to why either Pac or JMM will win.

---

I thought you changed your pick because you was a long time fan of Barrera ?? plus you was going with your heart and not your head ?? i really don't know what else i can say, i have brought up all the reasons i think Marquez will win without being biased.

---

I just think you've base your thoughts on this coming rematch too much on the first fight. I can't believe your still convince pac has made no major improvements; the right hooks, the leg work, anticipating punches, better controlled aggression, THE SIZE, ring generalship,settlement, picking shots. Pac has improve those and it has made him a better boxer. In JMMs case he is brawling more, which is unlike him em i not right? BOTH fighter are not the same fighter they were when they first fought. I don't want to dismiss people that just keeps basing their opinion on the first fight but it makes no real sense since both fighters are NOT the same anymore.

Ok Rains i will give my two cents right now without being biased on how Marquez can beat Pacquiao. First off he needs to move clockwise thats the basic's when fighting a southpaw. Thats what i learned in the gym that way he can stay away from Pacquiao's best weapon the left hand. Another thing when fighting a southpaw is that a straight right hand is the best weapon when fighting against a southpaw, some experts may argue its the left hook but from footage i've seen, plus when i have been sparring with southpaws the best weapon is the straight right hand. Now if you look at Pacquiao vs Marquez you will see that Marquez staggered Pacquiao with straight right hands quite a few times. Thats one of the keys for Marquez the straight right hand.

Now another key for Marquez is timing, now the old saying is that timing beats speed and that is correct. Now Pacquiao does have a lot of head movement but if you are really concentrating on your opponent you can counter them as there coming in. And thats basically what Marquez needs to do, he needs to watch Pacquiao's shoulder's etc, time the feint take one step back and counter him with a jab, right hand, right down the pipe. Also one of the best ways to offset a fighters rhythm is the jab. Marquez has a pretty decent jab he needs to throw it at least 30 times to offset Pacquiao's rhythm and that stops your opponent getting anything off. And because Pacquiao is a highly aggressive fighter the jab will be a very good weapon for Marquez to use.

Another little fact when fighting a Southpaw is you need to keep your lead leg outside of the southpaw’s lead leg, that way you are forcing him to move to your right *his left* which is against his natural power. And it also opens the southpaw up to right hand leads and left hooks which are the two best punches to use against a southpaw, which Marquez uses very well.

One last thing is that you don't need to come forward against Pacquiao, you just need to pick your shots and choose when and when not to be aggressive just to get enough respect from Pacquiao.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ice Cold Boxing

Ok Rains i will give my two cents right now without being biased on how Marquez can beat Pacquiao. First off he needs to move clockwise thats the basic's when fighting a southpaw. Thats what i learned in the gym that way he can stay away from Pacquiao's best weapon the left hand. Another thing when fighting a southpaw is that a straight right hand is the best weapon fighting against a southpaw, some experts may argue its the left hook but from footage i've seen, plus when i have been sparring with southpaws the best weapon is the straight right hand. Now if you look at Pacquiao vs Marquez you will see that Marquez staggered Pacquiao with straight right hands quite a few times. Thats one of the keys for Marquez the straight right hand.

Now another key for Marquez is timing, now the old saying is that timing beats speed and that is correct. Now Pacquiao does have a lot of head movement but if you are really concentrating on your opponent you can counter them as there coming in. And thats basically what Marquez needs to do, he needs to watch Pacquiao's shoulder's etc, time the feint take one step back and counter him with a jab, right hand, right down the pipe. Also one of the best ways to offset a fighters rhythm is the jab. Marquez has a pretty decent jab he needs to throw it at least 30 times to offset Pacquiao's rhythm and that stops your opponent getting anything off. And because Pacquiao is a highly aggressive fighter the jab will be a very good weapon for Marquez to use.

Another little fact when fighting a Southpaw is you need to keep your lead leg outside of the southpaw’s lead leg, that way you are forcing him to move to your right *his left* which is against his natural power. And it also opens the Southpaw up to right hand leads and left hooks which are the two best punches to use against a southpaw, which Marquez uses very well.

One last thing is that you don't need to come forward against Pacquiao, you just need to pick your shots and choose when and when not to be aggressive just to get enough respect from Pacquiao.

---

Much better, another thing that pacs oppenent fail to consistently do is to go to his body. I barely see anyone hit pac to the body. IMO JMM needs to put enough damage to pacs body to slow him down to avoid pac dominating later on with his speed,stamina and power. The counter ability of JMM is already there what he needs to do is focus on the basic or the little things just like you said his position keeping himself at the ring angle so pac can't get off his punches at a dangerous range. Now this is what I was hoping for a quality debate, not a bunch of played out opinions over and over again. Anyways, if you watch footage of pac especially in the marco rematch. You can see where he puts himself infront of his oppenent. There are times when pac dodges out of range then quickly goes right back to where he is at an angle where he feels he can get his shots off quick and hard. People never pay attention to details now a days, they just go on bias thoughts to lead them to bias conclusion. Another thing that pac has improve on his cutting off the ring, again, many people believe pac is just an aggressive little brawler but he is a decieving fighter. (not to sound all braggy about my boy) but he does do little things that are never mention. Cutting of the ring is one of the best thing he does and pac is prolly one of the best fighter that can do that.

BAck to JMM, IMO JMM needs to rely on pac making mistakes then to rely on beating him to the punch cause pac is faster between the two. JMM needs to pick his shots wisely cause if not pac will not only land one but he'll get in atleast two. Another thing JMM needs to look at is the way pac rallies back when he is hit off balance or with any good shot. Ice you said pac has not made any major improvements but if you watch footage of him enough Im sure you'll understand his more of a complete fighter now. If you watch round 6 of the mab rematch, you can see that mab did have the abbility to hit pac cleanly cause yes pac is not a great defensive fighter BUT the problem with that is pacs ability to rally right back through his oppenents. Marco at times won the exchange but pac landed some bigger shots and it seem to be discouraging that pac is not that faze by marco winning the exchange. Whats worst is when pac actually wins the exchange cause he puts out an onslaught. This IMO is what JMM should not rely on, he should not rely on winning exchanges cause it is a lose lose situation against pac. Like i said, pac at times lose the exchanges but he discourage his oppenents simply because he shows no sign of slowing down and when he does win the exchange well its obvious that does damage. Like me and you Ice, JMM IMO does need to rely on timing he needs to take advantage of when pac is either off balance or squaring up wildly. When Pac squares off, its either he takes it or he dishes out damage. Again JMM should not rely one exchanging, he should put one or two clean shot on pac then move. Do not let more then two second go by without moving out of the way. This way he hit pac without pac being able to rally back cause he had already gotten out of range away from pac. NOt necessary stick and move but just take advantage of pacs mistakes to make him look bad. There are still a lot of factors though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Julius Marvelous Rain

Much better, another thing that pacs oppenent fail to consistently do is to go to his body. I barely see anyone hit pac to the body. IMO JMM needs to put enough damage to pacs body to slow him down to avoid pac dominating later on with his speed,stamina and power.

---

I agree Rains but the only problem with that is that to go to the body effectively you have to get close to your opponent. And because Marquez will be fighting on the outside, throwing body shots from the outside is dangerous and is a big no no, because your hands drop and you leave such easy countering opportunities for your opponent. and because of how powerful and quick Pacquiao is he would easily tag Marquez and spark him out no question in my mind. Unless Marquez times Pacquiao coming in and ducks then shoots out a good body shot, and if he landed it correctly and effectively that would do major damage to Pacquiao because he would be walking right into it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Julius Marvelous Rain

if you watch footage of pac especially in the marco rematch. You can see where he puts himself infront of his oppenent. There are times when pac dodges out of range then quickly goes right back to where he is at an angle where he feels he can get his shots off quick and hard. People never pay attention to details now a days,

---

What a lot of Pacquiao's opponent's don't realize is that when Pacquiao bob's and weaves there is always a pattern. Just like with Tyson when he bobbed and weaved, and you can actually time it and counter. Little details like that can help in a big way.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Julius Marvelous Rain

BAck to JMM, IMO JMM needs to rely on pac making mistakes then to rely on beating him to the punch cause pac is faster between the two. JMM needs to pick his shots wisely cause if not pac will not only land one but he'll get in atleast two.

---

Like i said earlier Rains this is where timing comes into play, no matter how fast your opponent is. If you can time them effectively your timing will always beat there speed. And thats basically what Marquez needs to do time Pacquiao's feints etc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Julius Marvelous Rain

Ice you said pac has not made any major improvements but if you watch footage of him enough Im sure you'll understand his more of a complete fighter now.

---

Im not trying to say he hasn't made much improvements because he has, but not *Major* improvements IMO, he still has the same flaws Marquez can take advantage of. But i will give Pacquiao his credit he uses good angles now and he has a much better variety of punches.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Julius Marvelous Rain

If you watch round 6 of the mab rematch, you can see that mab did have the abbility to hit pac cleanly cause yes pac is not a great defensive fighter BUT the problem with that is pacs ability to rally right back through his oppenents. Marco at times won the exchange but pac landed some bigger shots

---

I think the main problem was that Barrera was too gun shy, he did use some good tactics like with his jab and his movement. But he wasn't landing enough hurtful punches on Pacquiao and he didn't get any respect from Pacquiao. Plus he didn't pull the trigger when there were countering opportunities.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Julius Marvelous Rain

he should not rely on winning exchanges cause it is a lose lose situation against pac. Like i said, pac at times lose the exchanges but he discourage his oppenents simply because he shows no sign of slowing down and when he does win the exchange well its obvious that does damage. Like me and you Ice, JMM IMO does need to rely on timing he needs to take advantage of when pac is either off balance or squaring up wildly.

---

Im in total agreement here good posting a lot of boxers are too macho and try and finish exchanges when it isn't to there best advantage. But i think Marquez is too smart for that, i know you don't like me bringing up 1st fight but i need to here to explain a point. If you see in the 1st fight that Marquez would land 3 or 2 good punches and Pacquiao would fire back and sometimes win the exchange, but Marquez didn't get let his pride get in the way and he just stepped back and continued to fight his fight.

Pacquiao does sometimes go off balance when he is coming in, your right about that and a good counter puncher like Marquez can for certain take advantage of that. And im glad you also see my point about when Pacquiao squares his shoulders up and leaves countering opportunities.

I would just like to finish off by saying i really do like Pacquiao as a fighter, i think people get the wrong impression of me because i have gone against Pacquiao in some fights. But i have stuck up for Pacquiao in the past believe it or not. I really enjoy watching him fight he is a true warrior with great power and quick hands, whats not too like about his boxing ??

He also ducks nobody and i really admire him for taking this fight, im rooting for Marquez but if Pacquiao wins you won't see any sour grapes from me, may the better man win and lets hope we see a competitive great action packed fight.

Im off the bed now because im really tired i will continue this tomorrow with you because i have enjoyed this debate so far.

I actually think Barrera had one half of a great fight plan in his rematch against Pac. Marco's movement and defense made Pac miss quite a bit in the fight. But he obviously no longer had it in him to let his hands go. In retrospect...i think Barrera's last great effort was his fight against Marquez. He didn't have the heart and offensive sharpness against Manny. If Marquez can remain sharp and hungry...i can see him countering Pac and winning a tough fight on points.

I, for one, believe this is a toss-up fight. Manny has more tools than the first fight, but Marquez also knows he can dominate Manny. I think Marquez was just caught off guard in the first round of the first fight, but Marquez usually starts off slow and Manny starts of quick. If anyone out there can stop Pacquiao, it's Marquez.

This time around, I believe Manny will pull out a late KO. Like the first fight, Manny will take the early rounds, Marquez will take the middle rounds, but eventually I feel Marquez will trade (like he's been doing his last couple fights) later on and get caught.

Manny has been out of focus throughout 2007 but I KNOW he remembers the first fight and will not take Marquez lightly. If he does, he deserves to lose.

Manny has improved technically since the first fight. Juan Manuel has altered too. Not entirely to his detriment, but he may have surrendered the dge he had over manny.

i went for PACMAN , i think he has improved alot since the first fight , the fact that both fighters will kinda know wot the other is going to try makes it and interesting match for sure.
PAC KO 3

I've voted for Pac by UD.

Here are my reasons:

Pac if he trains with full concentration and no distractions, he will come fully prepared.

Allthough JMM beat Barerra, I thought it was a close fight and allthough at this stage in their respective carears JMM poseses more danger to Pac than Barerra would, IMO Pac will have the measure of JMM but only just.

JMM has amazing skills but a slighlty younger and fresher Pac will be abit to much to handle, I mean it's a very tough call but this time round I believe we'll see Pac start very strong and finish strong, with the middle rounds going to JMM.

JMM will be fully up for this fight of that there is no doubt and he will make the fight difficult for Pac, but if Pac takes this fight very seriouslly (and I'm sure he will, he has to) then the greater speed and punching combinations and the accuracy of the combo's from Pac will see him to a UD.

I see JMM working from the outside and using his own speed and combo's but I see Pac hitting harder and working on the inside and then getting back out and going upstairs.

I know I've gone on abit so to sum it up.

Pac will have the greater workrate and better punch combo's due to his speed.

The above may well be true.

EVeryone above this post on this page have been granted a :coolclick:

Thanks guys for the unbias insights on this fight.

Cool Click Returned Julius.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Julius Marvelous Rain

EVeryone above this post on this page have been granted a :coolclick:

Thanks guys for the unbias insights on this fight.

---

Do you like my quoting better Rains ;D

:coolclick: back ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Julius Marvelous Rain

EVeryone above this post on this page have been granted a :coolclick:

Thanks guys for the unbias insights on this fight.

---

Much appreciated, I can't give you a CC back as I need to get to 100 posts.

Well Ice it looks like you've help me manage to get this thread to the direction I was hoping for it to go. Hopefully you've gotten a well rested night. Theres plenty of well thoughtout opinions that followed our debate last night. Delightful to see how unbias everyone is and are stating some exellent points of view.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ice Cold Boxing

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Julius Marvelous Rain

Much better, another thing that pacs oppenent fail to consistently do is to go to his body. I barely see anyone hit pac to the body. IMO JMM needs to put enough damage to pacs body to slow him down to avoid pac dominating later on with his speed,stamina and power.

---

I agree Rains but the only problem with that is that to go to the body effectively you have to get close to your opponent. And because Marquez will be fighting on the outside, throwing body shots from the outside is dangerous and is a big no no, because your hands drop and you leave such easy countering opportunities for your opponent. and because of how powerful and quick Pacquiao is he would easily tag Marquez and spark him out no question in my mind. Unless Marquez times Pacquiao coming in and ducks then shoots out a good body shot, and if he landed it correctly and effectively that would do major damage to Pacquiao because he would be walking right into it.

Honestly, you got me here cause I failed to think about how JMM will be at risk throwing body shots since you have pointed out that to throw body shots one must be up close and in dead range. I did not think about how it will cause jmm to drop his hands and be open at a dangerous range for exchanges or combinations from pac. Honestly the type of body shot i was thinking about wasn't the inside fighting type of body shot throwing. I had the penalosa liver shot knock out against jhonny, penalosa set it up nice dodge a punch then countering to the body. That was the type I had in mind. Good thing we clear that up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Julius Marvelous Rain

if you watch footage of pac especially in the marco rematch. You can see where he puts himself infront of his oppenent. There are times when pac dodges out of range then quickly goes right back to where he is at an angle where he feels he can get his shots off quick and hard. People never pay attention to details now a days,

---

What a lot of Pacquiao's opponent's don't realize is that when Pacquiao bob's and weaves there is always a pattern. Just like with Tyson when he bobbed and weaved, and you can actually time it and counter. Little details like that can help in a big way.

Yes there is a pattern to every fighters movement, some far more discrete then others. Pacs body movement like I said earlier is more design to make his oppenents pause and give pac the moment he is looking for to throw his punches. Timing it Im sure it'll be hard cause his right infront of you. If you wait too long it could be you that is being setup for some incoming bombs. I think keeping the jab out there will buy JMM time and distract pacs rythem.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Julius Marvelous Rain

BAck to JMM, IMO JMM needs to rely on pac making mistakes then to rely on beating him to the punch cause pac is faster between the two. JMM needs to pick his shots wisely cause if not pac will not only land one but he'll get in atleast two.

---

Like i said earlier Rains this is where timing comes into play, no matter how fast your opponent is. If you can time them effectively your timing will always beat there speed. And thats basically what Marquez needs to do time Pacquiao's feints etc.

Yes timing is everything against a quick fighter like pac. JMM can capitolize on pacs speed if he makes him miss then catch pac on his way in. Making the punch a lot more effective becuase of the impact of pac coming in and a punch collideing right at him.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Julius Marvelous Rain

Ice you said pac has not made any major improvements but if you watch footage of him enough Im sure you'll understand his more of a complete fighter now.

---

Im not trying to say he hasn't made much improvements because he has, but not *Major* improvements IMO, he still has the same flaws Marquez can take advantage of. But i will give Pacquiao his credit he uses good angles now and he has a much better variety of punches.

IMO the only flaws pac still have are the ones he'll always have. His speed came with bad balance, his power came with his wildness so look at it as a gift and a curse. Pac like any other fighter is not perfect but his natural gifts will always outweight his flaws. His stamina plays a huge part to his legacy though, cause its curse is a positive one....relentless. Pac is a very top notch conditioned fighter and he is very very relentless. That one is one that noun can take advantage of cause relentless equals many things,courage,durability,determination etc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Julius Marvelous Rain

If you watch round 6 of the mab rematch, you can see that mab did have the abbility to hit pac cleanly cause yes pac is not a great defensive fighter BUT the problem with that is pacs ability to rally right back through his oppenents. Marco at times won the exchange but pac landed some bigger shots

---

I think the main problem was that Barrera was too gun shy, he did use some good tactics like with his jab and his movement. But he wasn't landing enough hurtful punches on Pacquiao and he didn't get any respect from Pacquiao. Plus he didn't pull the trigger when there were countering opportunities.

Gotta disagree with you on this one ice, there was a reason why mab was gun shy and it was due to who was in the ring with him. Pac scraped him in the first fight badly and that remains in fighters mind. This leads me to think that JMM will also fall gun shy atleast in the first few rounds against pac, cause Im sure he does not want a repeat of consecutive knock downs. Another thing, Mab did land when he threw but everytime he landed you can tell it awakes pac which seemed to be what Mab wanted to avoid. He clearly did not want to spark an all out war so it made him keep his distant and in doing so did not win rounds.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Julius Marvelous Rain

he should not rely on winning exchanges cause it is a lose lose situation against pac. Like i said, pac at times lose the exchanges but he discourage his oppenents simply because he shows no sign of slowing down and when he does win the exchange well its obvious that does damage. Like me and you Ice, JMM IMO does need to rely on timing he needs to take advantage of when pac is either off balance or squaring up wildly.

---

Im in total agreement here good posting a lot of boxers are too macho and try and finish exchanges when it isn't to there best advantage. But i think Marquez is too smart for that, i know you don't like me bringing up 1st fight but i need to here to explain a point. If you see in the 1st fight that Marquez would land 3 or 2 good punches and Pacquiao would fire back and sometimes win the exchange, but Marquez didn't get let his pride get in the way and he just stepped back and continued to fight his fight.

Pacquiao does sometimes go off balance when he is coming in, your right about that and a good counter puncher like Marquez can for certain take advantage of that. And im glad you also see my point about when Pacquiao squares his shoulders up and leaves countering opportunities.

I would just like to finish off by saying i really do like Pacquiao as a fighter, i think people get the wrong impression of me because i have gone against Pacquiao in some fights. But i have stuck up for Pacquiao in the past believe it or not. I really enjoy watching him fight he is a true warrior with great power and quick hands, whats not too like about his boxing ??

He also ducks nobody and i really admire him for taking this fight, im rooting for Marquez but if Pacquiao wins you won't see any sour grapes from me, may the better man win and lets hope we see a competitive great action packed fight.

Im off the bed now because im really tired i will continue this tomorrow with you because i have enjoyed this debate so far.

---

Great thing about JMM is that he does fight his fight not his oppenents. Yes Pac sqaures his shoulder up, just like i said earlier pac has his gifts and his curses. JMM needs to be careful even when pac sqaures up cause that is where pac is most comfortable at. believe it or not the southpaw stance is just pacs second prefer stance. He clearly loves to square up and trade. JMM needs to keep in mind pacs gifts and his curses, but focus more on his gifts cause when you think you got him there may be a huge one coming right at you so balance the risk and the rewards. If JMM stays focus and content with the few great shots he can land and quickly get back at a safer distant then he has a great chance of winning a decision. It will be one hard fight though ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ice Cold Boxing

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Julius Marvelous Rain

EVeryone above this post on this page have been granted a :coolclick:

Thanks guys for the unbias insights on this fight.

---

Do you like my quoting better Rains ;D

:coolclick: back ;)

---

Actually of all people your the one i miss while giving out all those cool clicks, so heres yours :coolclick: +1634

This is a fight i feel both fighters deserve. I feel JMM will fuel a much more tense fight than my man Barrera did so we could also be in for a treat.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The Wind

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Julius Marvelous Rain

EVeryone above this post on this page have been granted a :coolclick:

Thanks guys for the unbias insights on this fight.

---

Much appreciated, I can't give you a CC back as I need to get to 100 posts.

---

Yea thats how it works around here, guess what if you reach a 1000 post theres a little suprise for you but dont tell anyone Im the one that told you ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cuchulain

This is a fight i feel both fighters deserve. I feel JMM will fuel a much more tense fight than my man Barrera did so we could also be in for a treat.

---

Whoever wins there won't be a third match IMO cause they will be going their seperate ways. Pac will be off to another division to take by storm and JMM will more likely rule the remains of what was once held by LEGENDARY KINGS. (marco,el terrible,the destroyer and Dynamita himself)I guess JMM can then turn the Kingdom into an empire him as the emperor. 8)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Julius Marvelous Rain

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cuchulain

This is a fight i feel both fighters deserve. I feel JMM will fuel a much more tense fight than my man Barrera did so we could also be in for a treat.

---

Whoever wins there won't be a third match IMO cause they will be going their seperate ways. Pac will be off to another division to take by storm and JMM will more likely rule the remains of what was once held by LEGENDARY KINGS. (marco,el terrible,the destroyer and Dynamita himself)I guess JMM can then turn the Kingdom into an empire him as the emperor. 8)

---

True enough, this won't finish either man

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cuchulain

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Julius Marvelous Rain

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cuchulain

This is a fight i feel both fighters deserve. I feel JMM will fuel a much more tense fight than my man Barrera did so we could also be in for a treat.

---

Whoever wins there won't be a third match IMO cause they will be going their seperate ways. Pac will be off to another division to take by storm and JMM will more likely rule the remains of what was once held by LEGENDARY KINGS. (marco,el terrible,the destroyer and Dynamita himself)I guess JMM can then turn the Kingdom into an empire him as the emperor. 8)

---

True enough, this won't finish either man

---

Yea both fighters have plenty of options no matter what the result is.

Marquez-Valero
Pacquiao-Diaz

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cuchulain

Marquez-Valero
Pacquiao-Diaz

---

That's where they're heading, win or lose for both fighters.

My gut tells me Marquez by close decision, but I think this is basically a 50/50 fight.

Despite the fact that Marquez is the older fighter, I think Pacquiao has actually aged more during the 4 years in between fights.