I'm confused,maybe I have misread something but it says Zsolt Erdei.So how is B Hop the Lineal champion too?
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I'm confused,maybe I have misread something but it says Zsolt Erdei.So how is B Hop the Lineal champion too?
If I remember correctly, Vergil Hill became the lineal champ by beating Henry Maske. Darius beat him before Jones did. So, what that means is that one of the greatest Light Heavyweight fighters to have ever lived was never the Lineal Champion :o, Darius was. Gonzalez beat him, then Erdei beat Gonzalez.
Roy JOnes and Virgill didn't even really fight at light heavyweight, both weighed over the limit. Anyways Roy won his belts against Montell Griffin, Lou Del Valle, and Reggie Johnson, Darius wouldn't come over to fight Roy so Roy was the lineal champ and he had the WBC, WBA and IBF belts.
He latter became the undisputed linear LHW champ when he beat Gonzalez and had virtually every belt.
So who's the lineal champ now? I'm confused because wasn't Hopkins v Tarver for the lineal title? Yet I read in lots of places that Erdei is the lineal champ.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
Are you 100% certain? That does make sense I guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rookie Fan
Well he may well have been the Universally recognized and Undisputed 175lb champion, but there is only one way to becoming the lineal champion and that is by beating the current lineal champion. Unles the Lineal champion retired that is.
It's Erdei.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Gamo
Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Gamo
We might not agree with it but we also cannot make up our own rules when we don't agree with something. Dariusz was the Linear champion not Jones. Dariusz was also a unified champion (WBA, IBF and WBO I think) but was stripped of two titles because of bogus reasons that Jones later won.
Was Jones THE MAN at 175lb? No doubt.
Was he the Linear Champion? Nope.
It doesn't matter if somebody beats the last guy, IMO linear champ has the three main belts or he is ring the magazine light heavyweight and at least two belts. Roy had every belt, and he beat everyone that was willing to fight him(don't give me that Dariusz wanted to fight him because Daruisz wouldn't come over to fight Roy).
I think Rookie Fan's right, "lineal" is just beating the guy who was lineal before that, doesn't have anything at all to do with the Ring magazine belt or being the recognized "man" of the division or anything like that as far as I know. I mean you track lineal back to when it was just one belt right?
Anyway its kind of a who gives a shit type thing, its for wackos like Britkid who are fascinated with who ruled the flyweight division in 1902.
I could be one hundred percent wrong about this. Not all that worried if I am.
yeah "lineal" is thought of as the "man who beat the man"
does go back to the original belt holder. not an exact science as sometimes it can go vacant and you could technically say the line ended there. So it can be about who's the recognized "man" of the division but only if had gone vacant. Baldo was actually linear at welter for a little bit which shows its not about who's thought of as the best. And Roy was never lineal even though he was recognized as the best.
here's one sites list of the "lineal" line at light heavyweight:
http://cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/lheavy.htm
here's another example, this time welter (not updated, went from Spinks to Judah to Baldo to Floyd):
http://cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/welter.htm
that was a bunch of bullshit, I just wasted like ten minutes of my life on this S***
The difference between that link and the Ring's belt is that Virgin Hill is here considered the linear champion after beating Henry Maske. The Ring, while acknowledging several champs between Foster and Spinks (unlike here), didnt have a champ until RJJ got the nod in 2001.Quote:
Originally Posted by OumaFan
Whether or not Hill was a linear champ, I dont know. How do you appoint someome to that position? He didnt hold all the belts - RJJ held the WBC, Dariusz the WBO - but perhaps winning an unification was considered enough?
Anyway, if Hill/Dariusz was the first linear champ since Michael Spinks, then Erdei is the linear champ today. If RJJ was the first champ since Spinks, Hopkins is the MAN today. I may personally adhere to the last suggestion.
If Darius was Linear champ maybe Roy should've gone over to fight him ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
The way I understand is this. If there is no linear champion (and the only way that can happend is if the current champion either retires e.g. Lewis or moves up in weight e.g. Trinidad from 147lb) than the first unified champion after that becomes the next linear champion. That is why there is currently no linear champion in the Heavyweight division. Because there has not been a title unification bout sinse Lewis retired.
Shannon Briggs never won a major title but he was still the Linear Heavyweight champion when he fought Lennox Lewis.
linear keeps things easy. No striping. You have to beat the man who beat the man.
Bravo! Bravo!! :appl:Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG H
It is always either Ice or Teath saying that he should of come and Fought Jones but hey he was the champ so Roy should of come to him but we will never see the fight so o well wonder if Ice is coming on this. People tend to have a double standard when it comes to other countries to fight its funney the way it works Calzaghe is a good example.
Gamo heres my understanding and how it went. I'll trace the lineal a few years back.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Gamo
This is IMO the Lineal Championship flow excuse me if the dates are wrong or for any misspells. :P
I'll start from this year as it was a year that begins with the Lineal being vacated (That plus the book I have starts off there also ;D )
1939 - Conn vs. Bettina (It was decided by the 2 (NYS & NBA) major bodies that the winner of this fight would be the champion)
1939 to 1941 - Billy Conn (vacates the title)
1941 to 1948 - Gus Lesnevich
1948 to 1950 - Freddie Mills
1950 to 1952 - Joey Maxim
1952 to 1962 - Archie Moore (Moore is stripped of the titles)
1962 - Johnson vs. Jones (This fight is made to decide who is the champion)
1962 to 1962 - Harold Johnson
1963 to 1965 - Willie Pastrano
1965 to 1966 - Jose Torres
1966 to 1968 - Dick Tiger
1968 to 1974 - Bob Foster (Foster retires in '74)
And heres where it begins to get a little shady.... :-\ So pay close attention. After Foster took off there were a shit load of LHW wanting to claim status of Lineal Champ you had guys like Galindez, Rossman, Cuello, Conteh and at least 4 or 5 more guys who were all the cream of the crop.
From '74 to '83 there were a lot of fighters claiming to be the real champs but it wasn't until '81 that we actually got a Lineal Champ.
* Spinks beat Mustafa for the WBA title (The NBA & NYS titles used to be the major ones the NBA later became the WBA which is why it's considered to be the most respect)
* Braxton (aka. Qawi) then beat Saad for the WBC title
* In '83 Spinks (WBA) beat Braxton (aka. Qawi) (WBC) to claim himself as the Lineal Champ.
1983 to 1985 - Michael Spinks (vacates the titles)
1996 to 1997 - Virgil Hill
1997 to 2003 - Dariusz Michalczewski
2003 to 2004 - Julio Cesar Gonzalez (2003-2004)
2004 to present - Zsolt Erdei
Although RJJ held all the titles and was a decorated fighter that is why I've always said and will continue to say sure RJJ had all those skills and ability but not once did he "tango" with a REAL champion for a title. Every title he picked up was a given title it's that simple. NOt hating on RJJ I've just always said the truth and the facts.
So there you have it that's my input.
Im fuzzy here,Did Maske and Hill fight for Vacant title first time around??
When they fought in '96 Hill was (WBA champ) and Maske was (IBF champ) so when Hill won that's when Hill became the Lineal champ ONLY after wining that fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spicoli Surfs 'Nawlins
No s!!!, Thanks Mick.Nice break down.Hope Hill calls it aday,Dont want to see these two go for trilogy another ten down the road :o :(Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMick
No problems Spicoli. I'm with you on that PLEASE NO MORE HILL-MASKE fights please!! :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Spicoli Surfs 'Nawlins
CC,that explained alot. So can someone answer these 2 questions for me please:Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMick
1.) When Bernard fought Tarver and won,he didNOT become the lineal champion?
2.) is the lineal champion the same as the RING mag 1 champ per division?If not,which is the more respectable.
Sorry for all the questions and thanks.
1) No and 2) Not necesarily though they might be the same. e.g. Hatton at 140 and Mayweather at 147Quote:
Originally Posted by El Gamo
As for who is more respectable. I'd say THE RING champion and you can use Jones Jr. as an example of that. Not many people considered Dariusz the real champion. Hell I didn't at the time, it was only later that I looked it up and found out he was the actual lineal champ.
CC Rookie fan,really appreciate the input.
Jones offered Dariusz Michalczewski a fight in USA but Dariusz Michalczewski didn't want to know. And Jones didn't want to go to Germany after what happened to him in the Olympics. Both men were making a lot of money and didn't need to leave home so it could have never of happened really it was an awkward situation.
Yep Jones should of gone over to Germany and win 10 out of the 12 rounds. But to the disbelief of us boxing fans and Roy Jones Jr still lose a decision ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG H
IMO Erdei is not the linear champ! Dariusz only unified two portions of the title & then planned to move to cruiser (which is about the time he was stripped, he later changed his mind). It was considered that to be the undisputed champion you have to unify all 3 belts just like Pernell Whitaker did at 135.
Not the ole' Dariusz stripping titles again what they did to him was wrong theres no other way about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galaxy.
Nah it would've been better for Darius to go over to Vegas where he would definitely get a totally fair decision in the squeeky clean USQuote:
Originally Posted by Ice Cold Boxing
I totally agree that he was stripped unfairly, he had to defend in 30 days for one organisation & the other stripped him cause he showed their belt with his original one. That's just another reason why I don't pay much attention to the alphabet idiots.Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMick
But my point is still Michalczewski only unified two thirds, whilst Jones unified all 3 making him the undisputed champion & following that line Hopkins is now the linear champ!
1) he did not become the linear champ.Quote:
1.) When Bernard fought Tarver and won,he didNOT become the lineal champion?
2.) is the lineal champion the same as the RING mag 1 champ per division?If not,which is the more respectable.
2) I beleive the Ring stopped doing champions for a while and re-instated it around 2002 (I'm not 100% sure as I didn't read it then). It would appear they started the division with who was top dog at the time. Roy Jones was a more famous American with more belts. You don't become linear champ just by uniting x amount of belts, you have to beat the previous champion, if there was one. Joel Casamor is still linear lightweight champion, even though he holds no official belt and Juan Diaz has 3. According to one poster everyone should just forget he was champion now someone else has more paper titles, but it doesn't work like that. To be the man you have to beat the man.
Being Undisputed Champion does not equal being Lineal Champion... Like has been said before, you don't even need to have a title to be Lineal Champion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galaxy.
Is it Lineal or is it Linear... I am so confused... :-\
Well thats it you just answered your own question, both men didn't want to leave home because they know they wouldn't get fair scoring with the judges. Like i said both men were making enough money where they were, and they didn't need to leave home.Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG H
When Spinks moved to heavy the title became vacant, many fighters held portions of the title & Michalczewski managed to win 2 parts. But winning two parts does not constitute to becoming the linear champ!Quote:
Originally Posted by Larryboy
The Ring installed their championship in the April 2002 issue, Lewis who had unified all three parts was recognized as champion, Jones Jr had also unified all three parts & was recognized as LH champ, Hopkins had done the same as had Kostya Tszyu. All 4 champions had either beaten the reigning recognized champion or unified all the belts. Just as Holyfield had done at cruiser & Whitaker at 135.
I agree you don't need a title to be the real champ, I don't even recognize any of the alphabet groups, but at the time if the championship is vacant which it was when Spinks left for the heavyweight ranks then by unifying all 3 belts you became recognized as champion of the division. Dariusz only unified 2 parts, Jones got all 3. You can say what you want about the stripping but that is the way it happened.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rookie Fan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galaxy.
Galaxy then you should also note that what you are saying is according to you and not the way it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galaxy.
Because the way it is, is different. You consider Jones the Lineal champ because he unified 3 belts and that's fine since it's according to you but the truth is different from that.
Hill became Lineal after beating Maske, Dariusz beat Hill, Julio beat Dariusz and Erdei beat Julio.
That's the way it is now wether you agree with it or not is a whole nother story.
Take for example the Lighweight division there hasn't been a Lineal champ since Pernell Whittaker.
Why?
Diaz has captured WBA, WBC & IBF titles yet Casamayor is the Ring Champ but no Lineal champ in that Div.
It's not about titles or the Ring belt it's more of who beats whom and if the titles are vacated once a fighter faces the best in this case I'm assuming the Lineal champ would be determined IF and when Diaz fights Casamayor.
Sorry Mick but can you tell why you think Hill/ Maske was for the linear title? Cause it don't qualify in my books. When Spinks left the championship was vacant.Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMick
What your saying there is once a fighter faces the best but Jones was there at the time to so how can the Hill/ Maske fight be for the linear title?
You use Whitaker but that is exactly my point he became recognized champion after unifying all three belts, just like Holyfield did!
When a Lineal champion vacates/retires I belive that 2 fighters are determined to be the best.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galaxy.
If they happen to fight then then winner could be called the Lineal champ.
For example Diaz & Casamayor are the best in their div. if they happen to fight the winner would be the Lineal champ.
When Dariusz & Hill fought they were both considered to be the best in their division because A) Hill beat Maske.
Maske himself had been an established LHW since 1993 they fought in 1996. Hill himself had been and established LHW since 1987 (thats 87 not 97) when they in 1996. B) Dariusz had been an established LHW since 1994 he fought Hill in 1997.
When the fight was being made let's say RJJ was just moving into the LHW div. so how can he be considered top LHW was he was just coming in. Not ONLY that BUT he also ran into a little bump named Griffin.
And that my good man is why Hill vs Dariusz was for the Lineal title because while RJJ was esablishing himself the other 2 were already la creme de la creme.
The Lineal title was vacant sooooo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galaxy.
When Hill and Maske was made it was decided that they were 2 of the best the fight was made in 1996 RJJ in 1996 had just gotten his feet wet with McCallum why would he be considered the best in the Div. when Hill & Maske had been champions for years?
Unifying the titles IS not a requirement although it will help as recognizing you as the best. Diaz has WBA/IBF/WBO I bet you if he were to beat Diaz for the WBC he still wouldn't become Lineal? Guess why?Quote:
Originally Posted by Galaxy.
Cause Casamayor is considered #1 in the Lighweight div. so Diaz would have to beat Casamayor to be considered Lineal.
When Mayweather moved from 130 to 135 the ring ranked him second only behind Castillo, now Jones fought at LH the day before Hill & Maske so he was in the division so the same could have occurred. Jones was rated one of the best fighters in the world P4P at the time so there is doubt that Maske & Hill were the two best in the division.Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMick
All you need to do is look at Jones opposition to Dariusz's opposition at Light Heavyweight and look at common opposition. Dariusz went 12 hard rounds with Virgil Hill, Jones destroyed Hill in 4. Dariusz was also struggling with the likes of Richard Hall who Jones toyed with and made him look like he should of been in a different sport. Gonzalez also pretty much easily beat Dariusz on points despite the bogus scorecards. When Gonzalez fought Jones he was dominated and was dropped multiple times.
Jones Best Wins At Light Heavyweight
Virgil Hill
Montel Griffin
Reggie Johnson
Lou Del Valle
Mike McCallum
Eric Harding
Julio Cesar Gonzalez
Clinton Woods
Antonio Tarver
Dariusz Michalczewski's Best Wins At Light Heavyweight
Virgil Hill
Graciano Rocchigiani x2
Montell Griffin
Richard Hall x2
I don't know about you but i know who i would have considered the real champion at 175.