Sugar Ray Leonard:why do some hate him/think he was over rated?

I was just wondering why the hate on SRL? I've seen him being dissed on older threads and called over rated and manipulative. I was not a boxing fan at the time,so I was just wondering why some of you thought this? Did something happen? All I see is a guy who fought some of the best fighters of all time and beat them. A master boxer.

I'm guessing the reason some people hate him is because he was cocky and liked to showboat. Also, he was the media "golden boy" at the time, much the way Oscar has been in this generation. Some people don't like that.

As for the overrated thing, part of it probably stems from the fact that he got a couple controversial decisions. Many people thought Hagler beat him, and just about everyone thinks that Hearns beat him in their rematch.

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Originally Posted by SweetPea

I'm guessing the reason some people hate him is because he was cocky and liked to showboat. Also, he was the media "golden boy" at the time, much the way Oscar has been in this generation. Some people don't like that.

As for the overrated thing, part of it probably stems from the fact that he got a couple controversial decisions. Many people thought Hagler beat him, and just about everyone thinks that Hearns beat him in their rematch.

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I personally don't think he is overrated mainly because I think his controversial decisions against Hagler and Hearns are irrelavent. He still fought a hell of a fight against one of the greatest Middleweights of all time after a 3 year lay off and fighting at that weight for the first time in his career.

And as for the Hearns rematch. Who cares, they were both passed it by then and win or lose it would've meant nothing to Leonards legacy. He had already beat Hearns when they were in their primes.

Very true but beating Ray woulda meant a hell of a lot more to Tommy. I think Tommy would fiight him again tommorow if he could.

Simply, that he did not beat Hagler and he ran from Duran in 1980.

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Originally Posted by gally

Very true but beating Ray woulda meant a hell of a lot more to Tommy. I think Tommy would fiight him again tommorow if he could.

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You are right there. I meant more form a legacy stand point. I'm sure that fight meant a lot for Hearns and for his fans.

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Originally Posted by El Gamo

I was just wondering why the hate on SRL? I've seen him being dissed on older threads and called over rated and manipulative. I was not a boxing fan at the time,so I was just wondering why some of you thought this? Did something happen? All I see is a guy who fought some of the best fighters of all time and beat them. A master boxer.

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I just think he picked some of his fights very well i mean he ducked Aaron Pryor, lets remember Pryor went to press conference and kept calling Leonard out. But Leonard kept ignoring him and didn't want to know, Pryor also used to beat up on Leonard in sparring i think Leonard see Pryor as too dangerous at that time but whatever the reason he certainly ducked him IMO. He was also supposed to fight Hagler in the early 80s but he waited until he see Mugabi vs Hagler where Hagler looked past his best. And also Leonard only fought Hagler on his demands. Bigger ring size, 12 rounds instead of 15 rounds etc. But i still admire Leonard coming back from a long lay off to beat Hagler like that because that was amazing. But still he only fought Hagler because he see a great opportunity when Hagler didn't look nowhere near his best in the Mugabi fight. And if the fight would of been 15 rounds he certainly would of lost.

Also the rematch with Hearns he waited 8 years to give Hearns a rematch, and he only gave Hearns a rematch because he thought Hearns was a shot fighter after seeing Iran Barkley KO Hearns. And lets not forget the absolute joke decision in this fight.

I think Leonard was a great a boxer and he has a great resume, i think he picked some of his fights very well and waited just at the right moment. But overall great boxer one of the best of the 80s.

I think he was great, just not as great as a lot of people think, i.e I don't think he is an all time top 10 p4per. I know it means nothing now, but had the 1st Hearns fight been 12 rounds Leonard would've lost a very clear decision, although I do give him massive credit for stopping Hearns eventually.

I think the fact that he did not seem to love the game like some other fighters and was always either threatening to retire or actually retiring and then making a comeback didn't exactly indere him to people

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Originally Posted by Ice Cold Boxing

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Originally Posted by El Gamo

I was just wondering why the hate on SRL? I've seen him being dissed on older threads and called over rated and manipulative. I was not a boxing fan at the time,so I was just wondering why some of you thought this? Did something happen? All I see is a guy who fought some of the best fighters of all time and beat them. A master boxer.

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I just think he picked some of his fights very well i mean he ducked Aaron Pryor, lets remember Pryor went to press conference and kept calling Leonard out. But Leonard kept ignoring him and didn't want to know, Pryor also used to beat up on Leonard in sparring i think Leonard see Pryor as too dangerous at that time but whatever the reason he certainly ducked him IMO. He was also supposed to fight Hagler in the early 80s but he waited until he see Mugabi vs Hagler where Hagler looked past his best. And also Leonard only fought Hagler on his demands. Bigger ring size, 12 rounds instead of 15 rounds etc. But i still admire Leonard coming back from a long lay off to beat Hagler like that because that was amazing. But still he only fought Hagler because he see a great opportunity when Hagler didn't look nowhere near his best in the Mugabi fight. And if the fight would of been 15 rounds he certainly would of lost.

Also the rematch with Hearns he waited 8 years to give Hearns a rematch, and he only gave Hearns a rematch because he thought Hearns was a shot fighter after seeing Iran Barkley KO Hearns. And lets not forget the absolute joke decision in this fight.

I think Leonard was a great a boxer and he has a great resume, i think he picked some of his fights very well and waited just at the right moment. But overall great boxer one of the best of the 80s.

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You make some excellent points there but I don't agree with the SRL ducking Pryor. Sure Pryor called him out and maybe he did beat on him in sparring but I find it hard to think the same SRL who fought the feared Duran,the same SRL who fought the feared Hearns and the same SRL who fought the feared Hagler coming from a 3 year lay off,I find it hard to think he would duck Aaron Pryor. There's no real concrete evidence for it.

When was Pryor calling out Leonrad,on the timescale?Who was Leonard going to fight at the time?

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Originally Posted by El Gamo

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Originally Posted by Ice Cold Boxing

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Originally Posted by El Gamo

I was just wondering why the hate on SRL? I've seen him being dissed on older threads and called over rated and manipulative. I was not a boxing fan at the time,so I was just wondering why some of you thought this? Did something happen? All I see is a guy who fought some of the best fighters of all time and beat them. A master boxer.

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I just think he picked some of his fights very well i mean he ducked Aaron Pryor, lets remember Pryor went to press conference and kept calling Leonard out. But Leonard kept ignoring him and didn't want to know, Pryor also used to beat up on Leonard in sparring i think Leonard see Pryor as too dangerous at that time but whatever the reason he certainly ducked him IMO. He was also supposed to fight Hagler in the early 80s but he waited until he see Mugabi vs Hagler where Hagler looked past his best. And also Leonard only fought Hagler on his demands. Bigger ring size, 12 rounds instead of 15 rounds etc. But i still admire Leonard coming back from a long lay off to beat Hagler like that because that was amazing. But still he only fought Hagler because he see a great opportunity when Hagler didn't look nowhere near his best in the Mugabi fight. And if the fight would of been 15 rounds he certainly would of lost.

Also the rematch with Hearns he waited 8 years to give Hearns a rematch, and he only gave Hearns a rematch because he thought Hearns was a shot fighter after seeing Iran Barkley KO Hearns. And lets not forget the absolute joke decision in this fight.

I think Leonard was a great a boxer and he has a great resume, i think he picked some of his fights very well and waited just at the right moment. But overall great boxer one of the best of the 80s.

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You make some excellent points there but I don't agree with the SRL ducking Pryor. Sure Pryor called him out and maybe he did beat on him in sparring but I find it hard to think the same SRL who fought the feared Duran,the same SRL who fought the feared Hearns and the same SRL who fought the feared Hagler coming from a 3 year lay off,I find it hard to think he would duck Aaron Pryor. There's no real concrete evidence for it.

When was Pryor calling out Leonrad,on the timescale?Who was Leonard going to fight at the time?

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El Gamo what you must realize is that even in the Amateurs this was happening. Leonard moved up a weight class even in the Amateurs to avoid fighting Pryor. Plus i even remember Leonard saying he would never fight Pryor because of the styles. Although i will be fair to Leonard and say Pryor didn't ever really try and force the fight by moving up to Welterweight, just depends on the way you see it. I also slightly agree that Leonard fought Hagler, Duran, so why would he have ducked Pryor ?? maybe Leonard saw it as a big risk fight with little reward ?? remember a lot of people considered Pryor a threat but because there was no big names at Jr Welterweight he had no real bargaining power to force the fight, by the time Pryor beat Arguello Leonard had retired. So maybe it was just the wrong time for Pryor ?? but i also felt little sorry for Pryor because even when he was scheduled to fight Ray Mancini, Mancini got upset by Livingstone Bramble.

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Originally Posted by Ice Cold Boxing

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Originally Posted by El Gamo

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Originally Posted by Ice Cold Boxing

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Originally Posted by El Gamo

I was just wondering why the hate on SRL? I've seen him being dissed on older threads and called over rated and manipulative. I was not a boxing fan at the time,so I was just wondering why some of you thought this? Did something happen? All I see is a guy who fought some of the best fighters of all time and beat them. A master boxer.

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I just think he picked some of his fights very well i mean he ducked Aaron Pryor, lets remember Pryor went to press conference and kept calling Leonard out. But Leonard kept ignoring him and didn't want to know, Pryor also used to beat up on Leonard in sparring i think Leonard see Pryor as too dangerous at that time but whatever the reason he certainly ducked him IMO. He was also supposed to fight Hagler in the early 80s but he waited until he see Mugabi vs Hagler where Hagler looked past his best. And also Leonard only fought Hagler on his demands. Bigger ring size, 12 rounds instead of 15 rounds etc. But i still admire Leonard coming back from a long lay off to beat Hagler like that because that was amazing. But still he only fought Hagler because he see a great opportunity when Hagler didn't look nowhere near his best in the Mugabi fight. And if the fight would of been 15 rounds he certainly would of lost.

Also the rematch with Hearns he waited 8 years to give Hearns a rematch, and he only gave Hearns a rematch because he thought Hearns was a shot fighter after seeing Iran Barkley KO Hearns. And lets not forget the absolute joke decision in this fight.

I think Leonard was a great a boxer and he has a great resume, i think he picked some of his fights very well and waited just at the right moment. But overall great boxer one of the best of the 80s.

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You make some excellent points there but I don't agree with the SRL ducking Pryor. Sure Pryor called him out and maybe he did beat on him in sparring but I find it hard to think the same SRL who fought the feared Duran,the same SRL who fought the feared Hearns and the same SRL who fought the feared Hagler coming from a 3 year lay off,I find it hard to think he would duck Aaron Pryor. There's no real concrete evidence for it.

When was Pryor calling out Leonrad,on the timescale?Who was Leonard going to fight at the time?

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El Gamo what you must realize is that even in the Amateurs this was happening. Leonard moved up a weight class even in the Amateurs to avoid fighting Pryor. Plus i even remember Leonard saying he would never fight Pryor because of the styles. Although i will be fair to Leonard and say Pryor didn't ever really try and force the fight by moving up to Welterweight, just depends on the way you see it. I also slightly agree that Leonard fought Hagler, Duran, so why would he have ducked Pryor ?? maybe Leonard saw it as a big risk fight with little reward ?? remember a lot of people considered Pryor a threat but because there was no big names at Jr Welterweight he had no real bargaining power to force the fight, by the time Pryor beat Arguello Leonard had retired. So maybe it was just the wrong time for Pryor ?? but i also felt little sorry for Pryor because even when he was scheduled to fight Ray Mancini, Mancini got upset by Livingstone Bramble.

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ICB fair enough on your opinion. However check in search for a thread bout if SRL ducked Pryor and you will see a very good post from Britkid (who HATES leonard) explaining how at the time it was more a less impossible for them to meet. Also about Hagler looking not all that great against Mugabi....remember SRL looked very average against Kevin Howard and was knocked down for the first time. Add that to a long lay off and a detached retina which could of made him blind, also that he went up in weight and you have to say Leonard had the uphill struggle from day one compared to hagler.

No way was he overrated. He fought and beat the best in one of the best eras of boxing. Every boxers can be picked apart though and faults can be found, but there is no such thing as a perfect fighter. Leonard was pretty damn close though.

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Originally Posted by BoomBoom

No way was he overrated. He fought and beat the best in one of the best eras of boxing. Every boxers can be picked apart though and faults can be found, but there is no such thing as a perfect fighter. Leonard was pretty damn close though.

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yeah thats true and it could be argued that we never got to see him during his prime years. I think he was 25 the first time he retired....imagine him between the ages of 25-28 if he carried the form from the Hearns fight on. People say he ducked Pryor but if Pryor stepped out to welter SRL had far too much for him IMO. He was faster, smarter and he could brawl if he needed to.

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Originally Posted by cockey cockney

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Originally Posted by BoomBoom

No way was he overrated. He fought and beat the best in one of the best eras of boxing. Every boxers can be picked apart though and faults can be found, but there is no such thing as a perfect fighter. Leonard was pretty damn close though.

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yeah thats true and it could be argued that we never got to see him during his prime years. I think he was 25 the first time he retired....imagine him between the ages of 25-28 if he carried the form from the Hearns fight on. People say he ducked Pryor but if Pryor stepped out to welter SRL had far too much for him IMO. He was faster, smarter and he could brawl if he needed to.

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True, I think the Hagler fight was his last great performace reguardless of the contraversy. He was past his prime. Some people criticize him for his performance against Ladone but he was past it and everything he had left, was left in the ring with Hagler the fight before....I agree Pryor would have had a hard time cause of the weight and SRLs movement.

For a 5 year period, before Charly got him he was the best fighter Ive seen Live. The bastard had good looks atheletic great skills could take a shot could punch had a big pair off balls and never bottled it. He was what everybody secretly wanted to be, and a lot of people were sick because they never had a chance of getting near to what he had he was special, The flash cunt ;D

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Originally Posted by SweetPea

I'm guessing the reason some people hate him is because he was cocky and liked to showboat. Also, he was the media "golden boy" at the time, much the way Oscar has been in this generation. Some people don't like that.

As for the overrated thing, part of it probably stems from the fact that he got a couple controversial decisions. Many people thought Hagler beat him, and just about everyone thinks that Hearns beat him in their rematch.

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I believe that Ray even acknowledged he felt that he lost the second match Hearns.? But that first fight he brought the fight to the fighter, he out punched the puncher.. A true warrior with excellent skill set, Scrap said it best . He had brass balls.. If he saw an opportunity to close the show, he was on you like stink on shit ! Had it all .

Coming out of 3-year lay-off and immediately fighting a guy who was supposed to be unbeatable and beating (outboxing) him - no way was Leonard over-rated. The controversy in Hagler fight was because in those days the term outboxing wasn't that much in vogue - you either had to clearly dominate a guy or knock him in order to win. (Ironically some of the Mayweather fans here are the ones who saw Hagler winning, but when the Pretty Boy did the same to his opponent, they say he 'masterfully outboxed' his opponent. So now I'm beginning to wonder, is 'outboxing' for real or have we been duped by some wily promoter to believe that their 'not too courageous' boxers' refusing come forward and fight was a 'masterful' performance, or 'highly skilled,' or a case of superb 'outboxing?' Dunno, just confused a bit.)

When he fought Hearns again, he was already on a downhill and I heard they were already very good friends by then, I mean real chummy chums. Could that have affected his performance? just asking.

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Originally Posted by BIG H

I think he was great, just not as great as a lot of people think, i.e I don't think he is an all time top 10 p4per. I know it means nothing now, but had the 1st Hearns fight been 12 rounds Leonard would've lost a very clear decision, although I do give him massive credit for stopping Hearns eventually.
I think the fact that he did not seem to love the game like some other fighters and was always either threatening to retire or actually retiring and then making a comeback didn't exactly indere him to people

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Ive heard this brought up many times, I don't know if you were doing so as a knock on Leonard or not, but it's really irrelevant that he WOULD have lost a decision, if the fight was 12 rounds... It's not as though it was changed to 15 that morning, both fighters knew exactly what they had to prepare for, a 15 round war. Leonard won the war of attrition, and he would've had another entire 3 minutes even if Hearns had somehow made it out of the rd he was stopped in. It's not as though you hear people talking about how if JCC vs Taylor 1 had been 10 rds Chavez woulda got shutout... Even though he literally KO'ed Taylor with seconds left.

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Originally Posted by BoomBoom

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Originally Posted by cockey cockney

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Originally Posted by BoomBoom

No way was he overrated. He fought and beat the best in one of the best eras of boxing. Every boxers can be picked apart though and faults can be found, but there is no such thing as a perfect fighter. Leonard was pretty damn close though.

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yeah thats true and it could be argued that we never got to see him during his prime years. I think he was 25 the first time he retired....imagine him between the ages of 25-28 if he carried the form from the Hearns fight on. People say he ducked Pryor but if Pryor stepped out to welter SRL had far too much for him IMO. He was faster, smarter and he could brawl if he needed to.

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True, I think the Hagler fight was his last great performace reguardless of the contraversy. He was past his prime. Some people criticize him for his performance against Ladone but he was past it and everything he had left, was left in the ring with Hagler the fight before....I agree Pryor would have had a hard time cause of the weight and SRLs movement.

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Excellant points. And regarding Ray fighting Hagler, I recall someone before that fight giving Ray no chance. He said it would be like McEnroe coming back after years & playing Borg for the Wimbeldon title.

Also, I didn't realize Pryor was going to fight Mancini. Lucky for Mancini, that would not have been pretty!

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Originally Posted by pacfan

Coming out of 3-year lay-off and immediately fighting a guy who was supposed to be unbeatable and beating (outboxing) him - no way was Leonard over-rated. The controversy in Hagler fight was because in those days the term outboxing wasn't that much in vogue - you either had to clearly dominate a guy or knock him in order to win. (Ironically some of the Mayweather fans here are the ones who saw Hagler winning, but when the Pretty Boy did the same to his opponent, they say he 'masterfully outboxed' his opponent. So now I'm beginning to wonder, is 'outboxing' for real or have we been duped by some wily promoter to believe that their 'not too courageous' boxers' refusing come forward and fight was a 'masterful' performance, or 'highly skilled,' or a case of superb 'outboxing?' Dunno, just confused a bit.)

When he fought Hearns again, he was already on a downhill and I heard they were already very good friends by then, I mean real chummy chums. Could that have affected his performance? just asking.

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Leonard didn't out box Hagler when you out box your opponent you have clearly won the fight. That wasn't the case with Leonard vs Hagler, im a Mayweather fan and i had the fight a draw if Hagler wouldn't have tried to have boxed with Leonard in the 1st 4 rounds giving them crucial rounds away. Hagler would have clearly won no doubt in my mind. And if the bout would of been 15 rounds like it would of been but Leonard demanded a 12 round fight, Leonard would of lost.

And as for Leonard vs Hearns 2 Leonard only had the rematch because he thought Hearns was a shot fighter after what Barkley done to Hearns. But he thought wrong and was out boxed for most of the fight and was floored x2, and Hearns was a clear winner but at least 3 rounds. And your actually trying to make excuses for Leonard's performance ?? because Hearns and Leonard were friends ?? they certainly didn't look like friends when Leonard hammered Hearns in the 5th and 12th rounds.

They were freinds the first fight ;D

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Originally Posted by Scrap

They were freinds the first fight ;D

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hey scrap whats your take on Leonard vs Pryor..firstly you think SRL ducked him and secondly who you think would win at 147?!

I am a huge fan of Rays i rank him in the top fighter in the past 30 years and number 10 on the pound for pound list. As for the Hagler fight i had him winning it close but winning it, He beat Hearns in prime all i care about and he never really got his prime years because of the fight. He beat Duran in the majorty of there fights and was a Champ for Welter to Lighteheavy. As for Proyer his wins are not even close to Rays and neither was his competion and it is easy to call someone out but he never moved up to welter to prove he was good at the weight. And for who i think would win I say SRL outboxes him to a clear decsion for Welterweight divsion and up to any divsion he fought in at anytime when he was a pro boxer.

I was a big fan of SRL , i picked him to beat Hagler ( whether he did is open to debate i personally thought was harsh to loose your title like that ) but i really think Ray abused his position as the boxing " darling of the fans ".
I mean to get a fight with limited Donny LaLonde the LHW champion , and get him to fight at a catch weight below LHW and also the Supermiddle title on the line , i mean that is just a fcuking joke. Its hand picking opponents and the instance that leave me pissed off about Ray , and it clouds the memory as to how good in his prime he actually was.
I now was in hindsight they judges hadn't taken away Marvins title in that manour , and think about it if Marvin had kept his title he may have made 1 more defence and imagine if it had been Iran Barkley , that would have been one to watch ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

I do not think there is any boxer in history that was universally liked. Your first question is difficult to answer because of the word "some". You should have used a better term; one that could be measured - i.e. why are there more SRL haters than admirers

Over rated? Was he not an Olympic Champion who made a good transition to the professional ranks? He fought against the best during and after his prime. He won a lot and lost some. He was a great boxer, no question. Hall of Fame candidate? Probably (unless he already is...please correct me if so).

I think at a point SRL was bigger than boxing itself and they way he kept on retiering and the unretiering pissed a lot of fans off.

Plus he never gave Hagler a rematch and waited way to long to give Hearns his rematch.



But IMO Ray is one of the greatest fighters ever.Cant please them all.

Im with Mr 140

I just want to impart a few things about Leonard:

In the run-up to the Hagler fight he WAS manipulative.

He knew Hagler HATED him and would disagree on anything that he said so his demands were
"I want a 20 foot ring, 15 Rounds and Cleto Reyes Gloves."

Hagler replied angrily:
"screw you, I'm the champ and I say 20 ft ring, 12 Rounds and Everlast Gloves.

And thus Leonard got what he wanted.

Another said that he thinks Tommy would fight Leonard again tomorrow.
Tommy and Ray are actually really friendly (you see them sitting together for Hatton Mayweather?)
It's Hagler that has the massive grudge, he still resents that decision and feels it tarnished his legacy. He really dislikes Leonard to this dsay.

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Originally Posted by Mr140

I am a huge fan of Rays i rank him in the top fighter in the past 30 years and number 10 on the pound for pound list. As for the Hagler fight i had him winning it close but winning it, He beat Hearns in prime all i care about and he never really got his prime years because of the fight. He beat Duran in the majorty of there fights and was a Champ for Welter to Lighteheavy. As for Proyer his wins are not even close to Rays and neither was his competion and it is easy to call someone out but he never moved up to welter to prove he was good at the weight. And for who i think would win I say SRL outboxes him to a clear decsion for Welterweight divsion and up to any divsion he fought in at anytime when he was a pro boxer.

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Ray is no way a top 10 P4P fighter of all time, I'll name 10 right now who are rated higher.


This List Isn't In Order

Willie Pep
Sugar Ray Robinson
Henry Armstrong
Joe Louis
Roberto Duran
Benny Leonard
Sam Langford
Harry Greb
Jimmy Wilde
Micky Walker

And he didn't beat Duran in a majority of there fights either. There 2nd fight was pretty close up until Duran quit with bad stomach cramps, in fact Duran had to lose over 50+ pounds to make the weight. Leonard even stated himself he took the rematch right after there first meeting because he knew how Duran would ballon up in weight, Duran's training was a disaster leading up to there 2nd fight, watch how he does the speed bag and etc, his coordination is terrible.

As for Pryor like i said earlier Leonard even ducked him in the Amateurs he moved up a weight class to avoid fighting him, plus Pryor used to give Leonard a beating when they sparred as youngsters. Leonard is a smart man he knew Pryor was too dangerous, he even stated he would never fight Pryor because of the styles.

Leonard started Boxing at 16 after Gymnastics, how old was he when he won Gold. Work it out, it was a short Amatuer career the clues are there.

Sam langford is not above Ray in pound for pound and if you argue the fight with Duran then let me ask you this how you think the first one would of went if Ray boxed. As for Pryor you over rate the man and give me a article of Ray saying he ducked him or never fight him and i will believe you.  Pryor competion was alright not great think you overrate him because you are a fan Pryor was good Leonard was a level above and his wins and career speak for him i don't have to.

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Originally Posted by Mr140

Sam langford is not above Ray in pound for pound and if you argue the fight with Duran then let me ask you this how you think the first one would of went if Ray boxed. As for Pryor you over rate the man and give me a article of Ray saying he ducked him or never fight him and i will believe you. Pryor competion was alright not great think you overrate him because you are a fan Pryor was good Leonard was a level above and his wins and career speak for him i don't have to.

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Langford fought at Lightweight all the way up to Heavyweight beating great fighters, and had one of the best records of all time. So i think Langford is well ahead of Leonard in All Time P4P rankings without a doubt in my mind.

I don't overrate Pryor at all its a fact Leonard avoided Pryor in the Amateurs Leonard moved up a weight class to avoid Pryor, and in the pro's Pryor also called Leonard out at a press conference but yet again Leonard dismissed his challenge i wonder why ??

We aren't talking about there accomplishments we are talking about Leonard avoiding Aaron Pryor. Pryor was ducked quite a lot in his career plus his division wasn't filled with great names, that isn't his fault but he is still one of the best Jr Welterweights of all time.

Who knows if Duran could of beat Leonard in the 1st fight if Leonard boxed ?? all i know is that the 2nd fight was very close when Duran quit with stomach cramps. But what you must realize is that Duran come into that fight poorly conditioned, even Duran's team wanted to pull out of the fight. He had to lose 50+ pounds in a very short time so he was very weight drained and his training sessions were poor.

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Originally Posted by Ice Cold Boxing

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Originally Posted by Mr140

Sam langford is not above Ray in pound for pound and if you argue the fight with Duran then let me ask you this how you think the first one would of went if Ray boxed. As for Pryor you over rate the man and give me a article of Ray saying he ducked him or never fight him and i will believe you. Pryor competion was alright not great think you overrate him because you are a fan Pryor was good Leonard was a level above and his wins and career speak for him i don't have to.

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Langford fought at Lightweight all the way up to Heavyweight beating great fighters, and had one of the best records of all time. So i think Langford is well ahead of Leonard in All Time P4P rankings without a doubt in my mind.

I don't overrate Pryor at all its a fact Leonard avoided Pryor in the Amateurs Leonard moved up a weight class to avoid Pryor, and in the pro's Pryor also called Leonard out at a press conference but yet again Leonard dismissed his challenge i wonder why ??

We aren't talking about there accomplishments we are talking about Leonard avoiding Aaron Pryor. Pryor was ducked quite a lot in his career plus his division wasn't filled with great names, that isn't his fault but he is still one of the best Jr Welterweights of all time.

Who knows if Duran could of beat Leonard in the 1st fight if Leonard boxed ?? all i know is that the 2nd fight was very close when Duran quit with stomach cramps. But what you must realize is that Duran come into that fight poorly conditioned, even Duran's team wanted to pull out of the fight. He had to lose 50+ pounds in a very short time so he was very weight drained and his training sessions were poor.

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I never heard of this fellow Sam Langford? . you pulling out the history books on us iceman :laugh: ? My opinion is Pryor made some mistakes technically that a fighter like Ray would have likely capitalized on . Mainly being AP’s chin sticking out high and dry all the time .

I agree with him above me

i'm one of the many who feel he shouldn't have got the nod over haglar, he did lose the rematch to hearns but the hitman got robbed.................. i didnt like the showboat stuff it made a mockary of the fights because he over did it.............. he was a runner even more so then roy jones, and he talks crap on the contender most of the time he's to wooden to be a anchor man on the show

How many fights have you seen on Langford just to ask before you make any calls on him.

Sugar Ray Leonard was a magnificent fighter who was driven by ego - so to say he ducked anybody in his prime is a joke. You don't fight an undefeated Thomas Hearns in his prime but are somehow scared to fight others. ::**

He lost the rematch to Hearns IMO but both were past it and it holds no real value on their legacies.

I thought he lost to Hagler at the time but I was 10 then and since growing up and watching it I have no qualms with the decision. Both fighters were faded and Hagler in particular was just too slow and hardly landed many decent punches.

Leonard won the rematch with Duran fair and square - Duran quit. The 3rd fight was pointless.

Leonard's speed, reflex's and his venom made him a truly great fighter. He had a great chin to go with the flair. Sure he was cocky but he had the ability to back it up.

Hearns was a nasty son of a bitch when he had people hurt but Leonard was pure evil when the killer instinct kicked in.

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Originally Posted by nuclear bull

i'm one of the many who feel he shouldn't have got the nod over haglar, he did lose the rematch to hearns but the hitman got robbed.................. i didnt like the showboat stuff it made a mockary of the fights because he over did it.............. he was a runner even more so then roy jones, and he talks crap on the contender most of the time he's to wooden to be a anchor man on the show

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What about his fights when he was actually in his prime? Not when he was faded and fighting at a higher weight than his prime. Your judging him on the old Sugar Ray - try looking at his whole career.

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Originally Posted by WelshDevilRob

Sugar Ray Leonard was a magnificent fighter who was driven by ego - so to say he ducked anybody in his prime is a joke. You don't fight an undefeated Thomas Hearns in his prime but are somehow scared to fight others. ::**

He lost the rematch to Hearns IMO but both were past it and it holds no real value on their legacies.

I thought he lost to Hagler at the time but I was 10 then and since growing up and watching it I have no qualms with the decision. Both fighters were faded and Hagler in particular was just too slow and hardly landed many decent punches.

Leonard won the rematch with Duran fair and square - Duran quit. The 3rd fight was pointless.

Leonard's speed, reflex's and his venom made him a truly great fighter. He had a great chin to go with the flair. Sure he was cocky but he had the ability to back it up.

Hearns was a nasty son of a bitch when he had people hurt but Leonard was pure evil when the killer instinct kicked in.

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Originally Posted by WelshDevilRob

so to say he ducked anybody in his prime is a joke.

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If its such a joke explain why Leonard moved up a weight in the Amateurs to avoid fighting Pryor ?? also explain when Pryor called Leonard out in a press conference why Leonard dismissed Pryor's challenge if he wasn't avoiding Pryor ??

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Originally Posted by Ice Cold Boxing

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Originally Posted by WelshDevilRob

Sugar Ray Leonard was a magnificent fighter who was driven by ego - so to say he ducked anybody in his prime is a joke. You don't fight an undefeated Thomas Hearns in his prime but are somehow scared to fight others. ::**

He lost the rematch to Hearns IMO but both were past it and it holds no real value on their legacies.

I thought he lost to Hagler at the time but I was 10 then and since growing up and watching it I have no qualms with the decision. Both fighters were faded and Hagler in particular was just too slow and hardly landed many decent punches.

Leonard won the rematch with Duran fair and square - Duran quit. The 3rd fight was pointless.

Leonard's speed, reflex's and his venom made him a truly great fighter. He had a great chin to go with the flair. Sure he was cocky but he had the ability to back it up.

Hearns was a nasty son of a bitch when he had people hurt but Leonard was pure evil when the killer instinct kicked in.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by WelshDevilRob

so to say he ducked anybody in his prime is a joke.

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If its such a joke explain why Leonard moved up a weight in the Amateurs to avoid fighting Pryor ?? also explain when Pryor called Leonard out in a press conference why Leonard dismissed Pryor's challenge if he wasn't avoiding Pryor ??

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You rekon Pryor beats Leonard at 147? Honestly?