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It struck me today that if indeed the winner of Hopkins Calzghe does face Roy Jones the ultimate winner of that fight could well be considered the greatest fighter since the Hagler, Hearns, Leonard days.
Whoever wins that final fight could well enter the top 10 greatest of all time ratings.
Any opinions?
Bigger question is IF Calzaghe can pull it off,does that therefore remove Hopkins from the all time list ;D ;) Interesting thought Bilbo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
I don't know,at the risk of getting smacked around I would have a hard time placing Calzaghe on a top all time list.Based on ?? I mean Taylor will not even get into the same solar system as all time discussion and he bested Hopkins twiceAnd A win over Jones at this point (which Calzaghe can accomplish) has to be seen with an asterisk.Hopkins vs. Calzaghe will be a great one,Both had better steel themselves for what will most likely there toughest fight in there respected career's.
Jones will clamour for the winner and look to cash out but a 12 round win over a natural Welter 2-2 in the last 6 yr's does not translate to him being what he once was?Don't see him beating either one myself.
If Calzaghe was to walk away undefeated after beating Kessler, B Hop and Roy Jones, he will have done more than Marvin Hagler imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spicoli Surfs 'Nawlins
He would have beaten every fighter he ever faced, be the longest reigning super middleweight champ of all time and beaten by far the best two men around the middleweight weight classes since the days of Hagler.
If Hopkins beat Calzaghe and then Jones, he'd be the longest reigning middleweight champ in history, a two weight world champ and would have beaten the two greatest rivals of the past twenty years.
If Jones Jr was to beat the winner he would be the only fighter in the modern era to win both a middleweight and heavyweight world title, and in beating Hopkins (maybe twice), Toney, and maybe Calzaghe would have beaten all the greatest fighters at those weight classes of the best 20 years.
I'd say the overall winner would have a very good case for being above Marvin Hagler and possibly into the top 10 of all time.
If Hopkins beats Calzaghe it would be arguably the greatest win of his career. If he then avenged his loss to Roy it would be great, but Roy beat him when they weren't dinosaurs. So it would be unfair to rate Hop above Roy (IMO Hop doesn't come within a billion light years of Roy).
If Roy beat Calzaghe after Calzaghe beat Hopkins that would defintely enhance Roys legendary standing (which should always be WAY above these two).
If Calzaghe beats both, great as those names will be - he beat fossils.
i think by beating them both Joe will improve his name... however i believe he will never be ranked higher than jones jr...
to me calzaghe is better than hopkinas ever single day of the week, nard would of never lived with him... but no matter what he does now (evern tho Joe is "old" at this weight) they will always be older...
to me ROy is top 10, if not top 5 of all time... Joe could of been ranked anywhere roy would of if he wasn't welsh and was able to fight the fights an american would of been bale to..
hopkins was very good, but nothing more.
Calzaghe and Jones were fucking special.
U honestly believe prime Hopkins wouldnt have lived with Joe C?????Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Lewis
U cannot be serious.
That's almost as bad as that call.Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle
I don't think any of the 3 has a chance of surpassing Whitaker for the "best since Hagler/Hearns/Leonard" title. Really, it should be the "best since Leonard" title, since Whitaker is better than Hagler or Hearns all-time PFP.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
The only scenario that even comes close to what you're proposing is if Calzaghe were to dominate Hopkins (which would elevate Calzaghe's rep), then Jones were to convincingly beat Calzaghe. Jones would get a ton of credit in that scenario. I don't see it happening though.
Neither Hopkins nor Calzaghe has a chance to ever reach that type of status.
Bloody fanboys.Quote:
Originally Posted by p4pking
Prime RJJ (the one that humilated Toney) would have Ko'd Kessler not just beat him by a few rounds like Joe C. That version of RJJ would have toyed with Calzaghe.
RJJ is and always been ranked higher in ATG lists because he was a better fighter than Joe C, it has noithing to do with Calzaghe being Welsh. What an absurd statement.
I agree 100% with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle
Prime Roy Jones would have smoked Calzaghe at 168, IMO.
I think the fact that they are signing these fights as they are filing out their retirement forms takes away from it.
I mean it's somewhat interesting but IMO it doesn't come close to when, SRL, Hagler, Duran & Hearns all fought eachother.
I know not all were in their prime when they fought but for the most part all the fights were made around the same time.
No doubt this will add to their legacys for those who win but exactly how much?
Not a lot IMO.
I think the only one of these guys who should ever be mentioned in the top 20 p4p if he were to one or both of the other two is Roy Jones Jr. because if he can beat these guys at this stage in his career its more incredible than either of the other two winning against him and the other one. Hopkins sure he's older, but he hasn't put his body through the same process as Roy in that Roy went all the way up to heavyweight and back down. That destroyed Roy's body to large extent, and he has fallen way further from his prime than either Calzaghe or Hopkins. I don't think its because he got old and I truly believe if Roy had stayed at lhw he would still have only 1 lose on his record against montell, but besides that he would have continued to dominate guys. If Calzaghe wins ther can be a valid point that both Hopkins and Roy would have likely beaten him prime for prime, and he is the least battle worn of the three. He's had the least fights, he hasn't had to yoyo weight classes, he hasn't had very many tough competition. Regardless if Calzaghe wins against these two I still rate his career below either of them, and maybe in the top 50 all time, but not top ten. If HOpkins wins against both of them I would say he deserves top 30 because of his age, accomplishments, skills, and the route he went to achieve everything he did.
[quote=SweetPea ]
disagree completely, maybe with hearns but imo hagler is def higherQuote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Well Bilbo, whilst I do see your point of view I can also see flaws in the theory.
I feel the primary issue is their ages. Calzaghe is a realatively "young" 35, Roy is an aged 39 and Hopkins a 43 year old beginning to show his age.
Imagine see three situations.Here's my view of each as a fan of each possible victor:
Roy does indeed "return" and beat Hopkins and Calzaghe. It's seen as a great feat and Roy is hailed as Top 5 ATG's for his new boxing abilities far from his prime.
Hopkins beats both guys, his CV expands and he too is enshrined for beating the much younger Calzaghe and avenging agaiunst a far from Prime Roy Jones who was avoiding him anyway.
Calzaghe wins. Seen as decent wins and his reputation as a big fish in a small pond is diminished. However he doesn't receive full credit because he had such an advatage in age particularily in terms of Roy.
the sitaution has pros and cons for all parties. Money is an obvious pro. However, I see this as the only reason Calzaghe would fight Roy. In my mind Roy has done little to warrant a shot at the top guys and is merelky angling for more money and using his name to get in fights.
I would forgive Hopkins for fighting him as he obviously wants his revenge.
So after all that rambling: After Joe and Bernard fight I can see Roy fight either.
However If Joe fight Roy, it's blatantly for money, nothing to promote legacy nor record and I see it as a blatant money spinner of which is of no benefit to anyone in boxing apart from the participants.
I agree with the majority of the threads on here. It's an unfortunate situation, but I can't help but think there will be a tinge of regret when Calzaghe looks back on his career. Don't get me wron he will be immensely happy with being Champ for 10 years, beaten everyone (if) and went the whole way with his Dad by his side, but he spent to long working up to the 1st BIG FIGHT.
If Calzaghe beats B-Hop and RJJ he will be considered a great, but IMO not Top 10 greats. He will have beaten everyone put in front of him, defended his title for 10 years, but after beating Eubank, arguably his first big fight was against Jeff Lacy and then a few years on Kessler. He has spent too many years fighting bums before the big name came along. He will hae great scalps on his record at the end of his career, so HOF is a guarantee, but to be considered Top 10 P4P of all time, you have to fight the best when they are the best, in their prime. i.e. Hagler, Hearns, SRL, etc...
RJJ IMO is the only one who can enter that list. B-Hop has now got too much damage on his record considering who he lost to and then subsequently who they have gone on to lose to, i.e lost (twice) to Taylor and then Taylor lost to Pavlik.
RJJ is a hero. The dominant force in the 90's. He beat the best. Title from Middle to Heavy. He was awesome and will be recognised (and rightly so) as top 10 P4P of all time.
I think that Calzaghe would win both fights...and I'm a huge fan, but he took too long to get to the mountain top and when he did, he only had a year left in him.
you do understand roy was getting knocked out by the likes of johnson at the age calzaghe was when he was fighing kessler?Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle
I;m not saying calzaghe was better than roy p4p or prime for prime, but imo there isn't a great deal between them...
Hopkins i never really rated as a great talent. Very good thats all.
Sorry but i totally disagree Calzaghe is a good fighter and the best Super Middleweight of all time based on his accomplishments. But Jones is at a totally different level, Jones toyed with Hall Of Famer's and beat over 16 Current/Former World champions. Jones is one of the most skilled fighters of all time and talent wise Calzaghe isn't even close to Roy Jones Jr, now don't get this wrong i like Calzaghe and i think he is a hell of a fighter with a lot of skills, but Jones was something else and i've never seen a boxer as talented as Roy Jones Jr.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Lewis
hey man the guy is right thou, Roy has suffered two brutal KO's at the same age Calzaghe is, and lets not forget Tarver and Johnson are hardly massive KO artists.
Roy took on a rubbish HW in Ruiz to get that belt it was a bit of a gimmick fight but fair play to him he was in with a guy much heavier than him.
Ruiz is or was a bad HW champ, but he would still beat Joe C if he ever tried to move to HW.Quote:
Originally Posted by gudnite vienna
The reason RJJ got Ko'd was cos he was massively weight drained and killed his body getting back down to 175 after fighting at HW. As Roy said, name another former HW champ who came back down to 170 and won fights.
The point is RJJ in his prime was streets ahead of Joe C.
Oh come off it not everyone is the same at a certain age, Bowe was a shot fighter at only 28. So your logic is a bit silly. When Jones become Heavyweight champion he become the first former middleweight world champion to become Heavyweight champion in 106 years. So even if you don't consider Ruiz great its still a great achievement and lets not forget Ruiz was over 30+ pounds heavier.Quote:
Originally Posted by gudnite vienna
Rob Lewis is a fucking idiot. His posts should be ignored. There nothing but groupie lustQuote:
Originally Posted by eagle
Personally, if Joe does beat Bhop then I'd rather he bypassed Jones and went for the Taylor-Pavlik winner. That would do more for his legacy than beating a 70% Roy imo. Jones I can't take as a serious threat now until he beats a prime fighter. Then he might be worth a shot.
I think there'll be a lot of money in a Calzaghe-Pavlik match if they let it build a little. Joe should forget about his next fight being his last and go for a belt at 175 (probably Woods). In the meantime Pavlik might have beaten JT again and another (preferably a decent name such as Abraham or even Winky). He'll be well established at that point. It'd be a similar scenario to the Kessler fight really and I think it'll do a lot more for Joe than a Jones fight.