http://youtube.com/watch?v=yaaJ2obyzww
How did it happen?
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http://youtube.com/watch?v=yaaJ2obyzww
How did it happen?
Wow. I believe it was Buddy's continuous throwing of the left hook, and then the left hook feint that set up the KO. Davis continued circling away from Buddy's left, which consequently made it easier for Buddy to land a right hand. Moreover, with all the left hooks coming from Buddy McGirt, Davis was not expecting a right hand. In the final moments, the throwing the left made Davis react, while preparing McGirt to throw a right hand with full power. Davis had no idea what was coming.
By the way, I fixed the video so that it can be viewed from this window.
It happened because McGirt had no respect for Davis whatsoever.
Buddy's left was low and he was telegraphing it - Davis really needed to throw some right hands over the top of Buddy's left to establish himself and make Buddy respect him (the jab was pretty much all he threw all round)
Sometimes boxing is like poker, you have to bluff and make out you have a better hand than you really do. Ali was a master of the bluff. Davis was never a hard puncher, but he should have set down on at least a couple of right hands to make Buddy ease up with the charging. Then he would have found his gameplan (which, strategically to me, seemed like he didn't really have one other than move, move, move) a little easier to execute.
But yes, I agree with Chris - Howard was so worried about the hook he didn't even see the right hand coming. His left hand should have been tighter to his chin and he seriously miscalculated his foot speed while attempting to slide up the ropes.
He got the timing of Davis's guard down,Davis all through this fight is raising and lowering his guard,and allways circling to his own left,also he's on his toes so much theres no way he can plant and throw with power.Davis throws nothing but extended jabs,so all McGirt really has to do is keep slicing off the ring until he times him out.He doesnt have to worry about Davis one iota,Davis refuses to commit to a flurry.
Perhaps when Buddy cuts off the ring, his intention is to keep Davis from circling right. It makes sense seeing how it ended.
Interesting thoughts from everybody. When you play the fight the first thing you see (as Greig pointed out) was that the jab was all Howard Davis was throwing that round. Grieg yes Howard could have thrown more punches against Buddy - who as you say holds his hands low - but to do so would allow Buddy to possibly counter him. It's evident that Howard did not want Buddy McGirt countering him in any way. You see this type of thinking illustrated in the way Howard throws his jab. He commits only slightly and therefore would be impossible to counter because his body never truly leaves a defensive mode as he jabs. As result Buddy is unable to throw counter punches in this fight. The only thing Howard Davis is leading with is a jab and whats more, a jab that can't be countered. So Buddy must lead. His punching selection has necessarily been reduced to just that and only that.
This is a scenario you will see repeated in many, many fights. Fighters like Ray Robinson, Carlos Monzon, Joey Giardello, Tommy Loughran you will see employing this strategy against their opponents. It is very good at nullifying opponents because you are forced to lead and to be aggressive to be of any effectiveness. If you don't you won't be able to keep up. Since they take away your ability to counter, if they also take away your ability to land your leads, you are simply out of the fight. If you can't counter or lead what is left for you to do.
It would then appear that Buddy doesn't have many options. Howard Davis is trying hard to make sure of that. Buddy McGirt vs Howard Davis is a fight that has been being fought in boxing since the very beginning. Buddy McGirt is the swarmer. Throughout the history of boxing the swarmer's greatest ability has been to pressure his opponent and force reactions. Specifically, if his leads force his opponent into throwing a counter punch, he opens their defense and creates a window of opportunity where he can hit them.
Its hard to see in real time and especially on this youtube video so I made some screens.
Here we see Buddy throwing his left hook
http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/7624/b1de3.jpg
Howard Davis drops his left hand to his hip to prepare what some of you may know as the "check hook" in response. Yes Floyd wasn't the one who invented that punch. Go back to your tapes and see Jimmy McLarnin and Gene Tunny throwing "check hooks"
http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/6700/b2uw2.jpg
Buddy begins his right hand as Howard begins to throw his check hook
http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/8352/b3hy9.jpg
Buddy lands the right hand inside of the hook
http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/4562/b4st5.jpg
Chris I think you're correct when you point out that all the left hooks Buddy was throwing was leading up to something. It seems very evident that Davis was not expecting a right hand. We can see this illustrated in the final moments of the fight when Davis attempts to counter Buddy's lead left hook. Buddy had only been throwing single lead left hooks. I think if Davis knew there was the risk of a right hand coming behind the left hook he would have never attempted the check hook that ultimately left him open for a right hand.
If this scenario seems familiar its because you just saw this happen a couple months ago in Hatton/Mayweather. Only in that fight there was no right hand to counter the check hook. You can see in these screens that Hatton had triggered Floyd's check hook with his lead left hook. Thus, like Buddy McGirt, he had an open window for his right hand. You can see in the second screen that Ricky had a clear opening for his right hand which he ultimately neglected to take.
http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/9872/f1et2.jpg
http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/7616/f2pp0.jpg
http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/3346/f3ui0.jpg
Both scenarios in both fights are the same. This is a scenario that you yourself will encounter and more than likely already have whether you were aware of it or not. The more boxing you watch the more patterns and scenarios you will become aware of so that in your next fights you will instantly recognize them as they unfold in front you.
Davis is making himself predictable,this is a common problem in a fight.Mcgirt knows where he's going.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris N.
Remember when I was discussing Holmes-Cobb the other day?
Thats what Holmes is doing masterfully,he's shifting his directions.Cobb is constantly stuck,he thinks he knows where Holmes is going,so he covers up and goes to that spot where Holmes should be by now.Except Holmes is never there
Davis allways is
Just being near your opponent doesn't mean you'll land your punches. You still need to find opening in his defense and that requires more than just walking to where he is.
Dancing away throwing one jab at a time ensures you wont land anything,doing it constantly from your toes ensures you certainly wont land anything with any powerQuote:
Originally Posted by ThomasTabin
To elucidate,a 3 shot combination is supposed to start with point a),and open up either point b) or point c)
Davis never does anything but throw point a),and then skips away
He doesnt have any confidence in his own game plan,and just dances hoping McGirt will screw up rather then imposing his own will on to the fight
Nice follow up Thomas. It seems like a mistake that a lot of fighters can make when things their opponent is pressuring them. What are some things that we can do to avoid that happening to us?
Watch the Cobb-Holmes fight,its all there,or Hopkins-TarverQuote:
Originally Posted by Chris N.
If you want to dance on the edge you have to have a planned counter eventually,Davis is afraid to unleash it ever,you can see it,he's afraid
Dancing on the edge is like what the Mongols did to the Russians,your trying to draw the guy out and making him reach for it.But if you never take advantage of what your setting up,its more or less your trying to survive out there,not win
Countering the left hand (the jab and in this case the left hook) is one of the most dangerous things to do in boxing. You are very vulnerable to the right hand during these counters and this is because the right hand can come instantly behind the jab/left hook and strike you as your body is committed to the process of countering.
Counter punching is inherently dangerous. This is something that is never brought up when people talk about countering but you have to be sure when you try to counter that your opponent isn't going to hit you during your counter. This is not something you can ever truly know for sure. You have to guess what he might do based on his his behavior and punch selection.
For example Howard Davis saw many lead left hooks thrown at him and concluded it would be safe to try and counter the left hook. The information Howard was working from caused him to think he would be safe from a right hand as he had no reason to believe he would get hit with one. This of course turned out to be very misleading. Courtesy of a one Buddy McGirt. If notice what Buddy did is very similar to the conversation I had with you a while back when I was talking about throwing my jab at you in hopes that I could trigger you into countering and catching you with my right hand.
Well ultimately countering (and boxing in general) has to do with being able to accurately predict your opponent's actions. I only like to counter when I can pull leads from my opponent and know with a good degree of certainty that he is just trying to knock me out with the lead and not set me up with the lead. I don't counter often and only if I believe I have a good feel for what my opponent is thinking.
So he cant counter,and he cant engage,that leaves a ton of options,being hit,being hit again,standing there and being hitQuote:
Originally Posted by ThomasTabin
Being hit with what? Davis prevented McGirt from being able to throw counter punches and avoided all of his leads. That is what makes this type of style (dancers, I guess) so effective. You get many options taken away from you when you fight them and are forced to lead aggressively or else you won't be able to keep up. They put you in a position where the only way you can be in the fight is if you lead aggressively and therefore make yourself vulnerable to counter punches.
This strategy is ingenious. The twist of course is that they expose themselves to being struck when they are in the act of countering. Anyway circling and being defensive is not what causes them to be hit its engaging (either through committed leading or countering) their opponent that does that. Its ultimately what got Howard Davis knocked out. I feel that he was winning the round up until the end.
Trainer Monkey, don't you see the similarities between Howard Davis and your favorite fighter Bernard Hopkins?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThomasTabin
In that second photo look at how locked his torso is in regards to his hip and leg position (he cant move from there without doing something first) there is only way out and that is to do what he did and revolve his body around his hips before he can even take a step ,that brought his left side of his chin, right into the path and completly open to what was comming and side on!;
he was gone before it was even thrown.
Only other way out was to pull his left foot back a long way behind him but that would have put him in switch stance and gained alot of room to then react ,but not many boxers like to do that when the right time comes,they really should. The least that would happen is your moving away as the punch hits,and your back into balance with more distance to get your arms back up.
The ropes: if they are closer than they look in that shot and you feel them as you go back you can fold that left leg which takes your head down under the shot and you have to go out fast that same way.
OK I think I need to take a little more time to read through everyone's posts before I can completely understand what other people have spotted. The two things I noticed the most are going to sound pretty simple in comparison but I'd like to put it out there in case anyone wants to comment.
Davis crosses his feet when he circles left. He moves the right and then the left. This is considered a HUGE no no in my gym because it upsets your balance too much which maybe TM was eluding to when he said he can't put out any power.
It also means that Buddy can slip either direction without really feeling like Davis's cross is a danger to him although I think he also has impeccable timing.
When he gets hit with the punch that drops him he has just done this. He has put his own power into the punch that drops him.
The type of footwork you're talking about is necessary when circling. I don't understand how else you could move.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=EdAw_Wo9B3E
Sharla,here,get up on your toes,even though you wont want to ,stay there and try and throw a punch,now do it again with your feet firmly planted
Feel the instant difference in power?
Davis never throws a commited enough punch to make McGirt want to consider what he wants to do,all he has to do in the entire fight is stalk and come
Thomas, you think that perhaps Davis would have done things differently if he had a rematch. Anyways, considering what you said before, it's safer to counter when you're opponent is overcommiting to his leads. Using a style like yours provokes an opponent to lunge, and to overextend themselves. I can see how feinting, and drawing can play into this because I believe that much of countering depends on getting your opponent to lead, but what are some additional ways that you can increase your countering opportunities without putting yourself into harms way?
Davis was a Lightweight on his way out Mcgirt was bigger and rising. A good peice of matchmaking for Mcgirt, from the Bell Davis Bottled it he was in to deep. I dont think he had to many after that.
Why not move or circle to the left by moving your left foot first and then bringing the right back to your normal stance rather than moving the right making your stance narrow. I'd be told off sooooo badly in my gym for doing that!Quote:
Originally Posted by ThomasTabin
I've always been told to step first with the right when moving right, left when moving left, the front foot when moving forwards and the rear foot when moving back.
Sharla, Its the right foot that moves you left, and the left moves you right. The front foot moves you back and the back foot moves you forward.
It is the simpleist way to beat gravity and theirs no stress and puts the head where it should be for Oral perception. One point that is touched on is feet raised heel or flat footed, it all depends where the knees are in relation to the big toe for balance and muscle perception to feel. Flat footed isnt the posture for movement or speed response or biomechanical memory patterns.
So if your right foot moves you to the left then while you lift the left the right is pushing off? Do I understand correctly? If I do does that mean stepping with the left foot first while the right pushes off does make sense or am I completely befuddled .........:confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrap
I guess it kinda looks to me like sometimes he moves his rear (right foot) a little too far to the right. Pivoting on the front foot so he's changing his angle probably makes it work for him a lot of the time. Only thing is if he doesn't pivot enough on that foot he just ends up flat footed on his rear foot. Flat footed so he can't push off properly for the next step.
I think it looks most awkward to me when his front foot is grounded - perhaps because he wants to make his jabs harder and he's commiting to them more - maybe then he can't pivot the way he otherwise would - which then causes him to be flat footed on his right as well?
I guess I can see that his opponent is very powerful and good at cutting the ring and he doesn't have enough space to move the way he'd like to. Perhaps that's why he chooses to rely on the pivot so much to circle/move left but I think if you're front foot is flat maybe you're better off pushing of the rear foot and repositioning your front foot rather than trying to move the rear foot with the front foot flat?
OK do I sound like a complete nutter now or what :)
Who you talking about Sharla.
When sounding like a nutter - me! If you mean I sound like you I'll take that as a compliment though coz maybe that might mean something I wrote made sense maybe kinda sorta?Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrap
If you mean which fighter am I talking about on the vid then I'm obviously waaaaaay off and I need to watch it again! I mean the guy in the black shorts but if foget which is which - Davis I think (yes my knowledge of famous boxers is appauling!)
So am I completely clueless or what Scrap? I have a feeling there haven't been many comments on this because other people do not have a resounding feeling I'm right!
I can handle being wrong though - so am I? If people were to look at footwork alone with this vid what would they comment on?
Sharla, no youre not, You have the idea based on what youve been taught. Youve got the Brains to turn it round plus the comitment, youre looking at is a good peice of matchmaking. Davis didnt want to be there, the money changed his mind until the bell rang.
Thanks Scrap :) You give me hope of one day understanding it fully :)
For now Thanks for putting up the thread Thomas and having patience for the nagging Qs Scrap :)
I look foreward to the next one Thomas :)
I tried to give you some more rep for he encouragement Scrap but the board wouldn't let me - says I have to spread it around more first! I spend most of my time on this board looking closesly at about half the threads so I have a feeling I might run into this problem a lot .......