A Boxing Moral Dilemma

This is a thought that arose in my mind after a few posts were traded between myself and Monkey this morning that made me think.

I'm not superbly skilled or exceptionally gifted.
I am however pretty strong in terms of punching power and I've got a great chin.

A favourite boxer of mine was always Gerald McClellan. I strived to box like him and I Hhad some successes as of late. My problem is I hold back. I don't spar or fight as hard as I can as I try to box skillfully.

Should I neglect Skill in favour of my natural aggressive, volume punching
or
Should i ease off and try learn the craft more.

I find when I ease off I make myself vulnerable to a more skillful guy to expose my technical weaknesses...


Upside down thread I know but what do you reckon?

You should always try and develope your skills further IMO, especially while sparring, I don't think overwhewlming the same sparring partners every time, simply because you can, will be very beneficial in the long term.

In competition of course, you should take the fight to your strengths and fight your own fight rather than the other guy's. Hagler trying to out box leonard in the earlier rounds lost him the fight.

You should stick to the strategy that works for you, it's worked for many people in the past. I don't think sacfrificing some of the training you're doing at the moment to fight in a competely different way (e.g. like a pure counterpuncher) is the way to go, rather honing on the mistakes you're making and closing down on the openings you're giving away while applying the pressure. Succesful pressure fighters like Duran, Hagler, and Diaz at the moment, have a good defence, wheras the guys who fall a little short from the top (Miranda, and Valero IMO eventually) rely soley on overpowering their opponents, which works well up to some point.

Thanks for the reply Bomp.
My problem is that i seem to be developing two totally contrasting styles.

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

Thanks for the reply Bomp.
My problem is that i seem to be developing two totally contrasting styles.

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I'm not sure if two different styles is necesarily a bad thing, someone with more 'hands on' experience with boxers would be much better to comment than me.

Having a plan B is good, but it may be detrimental if you have doubt in your preferred plan A and you don't go all out with it. Some examples off the top my head (which may be irrelevant) are Hagler/ Hearns, Benn/ Mcclellan and recently Cotto/ Mosely, where both guys at the start of the fight (wether pre-meditated or not) go after each other. Eventually, one of the guys reverts to boxing after being a little unsuccesful, and in each example, the guy who doubted his ability to win by pressure eventually lost. However there are probably other examples where this is not the case.

I'm not so sure. I see big problems coming If i don't train as I fight, but at the moment it's working I guess.

I'm unsure of this myself. Let me know if you have any further thoughts on this subject.

I find I play down my aggressiveness to spar bigger people safely and I think it effects my ability to turn it on quickly at the beginning of a bout. Or even to throw combos as often as I should. If I don't though it'll be me that gets hurt eventually.

Last night I was sparring my coach and since he's 6 foot 6 i usually try to get him on the ropes and then attack. Had him on the ropes - was landing a jab with my arm fully extended and he parried hitting my elbow with his hand. My elbow won't straighten today :mad: he was just trying to defend himself but because my distance is so much shorter than his and my pace still quickish sometimes stupid things like that happen when we're not even going hard!

Maybe if I trained more with that in mind though - visualized the bout when being aggressive on the bags etc it wouldn't be an issue.

A light heavyweight we used to have in the gym was more powerful and explosive than most of the other guys in the gym. he said himself that sparring was never at the same intensity as fighting for him. He would KO people in training if it was because that's how he won some of his bouts.

He did however still manage to have some success - as you have. He loved intensive burn rounds on the bag.

This is probably not the awnser you want,but its a bit of both
You set up your bombs by manuevering the guy to where you want him,and then you drop the cannon
Ill use Bhop here,his work rate isnt that high lately,but against both Trinidad,and Tarver,he constantly manipulated his opponent,and when he had him where he wanted,he brought the hammer down,and brought it down hard

So combine both#?

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

So combine both#?

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Yeppers,if your constantly dropping bombs against an oponnent with good defense,your just going to gas yourself out
Youve got to time your bombs out,find their rythm and work to it,most fighters get in a groove,your job is to break it up and time it.

Yeah I get ya.
It's not that I'm a devastating puncher or anything, but I'm the type of puncher that when I hit, swelling and cutting starts and when I hit the right places they go over.

I swear bro,you finally get to the states,just for the advice you owe me a fight when you turn pro. jk/;D
Im messing with ya,you and Sharla are two of my fave posters on this board.
How in the heck is yer shoulder doing by the way,mine is annihilated,I am officially done for anything but training fighters,blew my rotator cuff.Typical fighter/trainer,we aint got crap for health care

Yeah no prob, I'll fight wearin a trinket from your gym no prob!

Tiger Balm has become my favourite stuff in the world!

Even no the shoulder is recovered pretty much (I've been a good boy the past week and rested) I still massage the stuff in.

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

Yeah no prob, I'll fight wearin a trinket from your gym no prob!

Tiger Balm has become my favourite stuff in the world!

Even no the shoulder is recovered pretty much (I've been a good boy the past week and rested) I still massage the stuff in.

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The Balm is god like

Hi Donny,
First off, as I'm sure you know, sparring and fighting are two different animals. The former is to prepare and hone various attributes with no thought to winning or losing; while the latter is about WINNING and actually doing your best to knockout your opponent whenever you can. With sparring, it's okay to "hold back" relatively speaking because the objective is to build/refine your game, not KO your sparring partners or vice-versa. Now, when it comes to the actual fight, it's time to unleash. When I say "unleash," I'm not talking about going out and fighting like an out-of-control maniac, throwing caution to the wind. I'm talking about FOCUSED AGGRESSION. Piggybacking off of the good advice Trainer Monkey gave you,

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This is probably not the awnser you want,but its a bit of both
You set up your bombs by manuevering the guy to where you want him,and then you drop the cannon

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be "measured" and apply your game plan(s) skillfully AND aggressively (the two can/do go together synergistically) then go "ferocious" when the opportunities present themselves to do so. And when they do, these are the times, if tactically appropriate, to unleash your "aggressive volume punching" to finish off an opponent. Whenever doing so, you should be completely uninhibited about it. You shouldn't have any hesitation or deliberation to unreservedly knockout an opponent when you can. Remember, if the roles were reversed, what do you think your opponent would be trying to do to you?

If you have a problem "letting go," I suggest seeking the counsel of a sports psychologist (or, if you are self-disciplined enough, buy a good book) who can teach you neuro-associative and visualization skills to alter your mindset so that you can "let go" and do so skillfully. As you've found out first hand, "holding back" in this sport can get you unnecessarily hurt more...

Good luck ("luck" meaning when preparation meets opportunity).

Take Care,
Lito

Thank you Lito...
And thanks as always Monkey.

When I box aggresively I'm actually very like Gerald McClellan (because I loved him as a fighter and copied him LoL)

when I'm defensive I'm kind of like Jermaine Taylor....and although I like that style, it's problematic in the amateurs where you only have four rounds and your scored on connection rather than style or actual boxing.

I find If i train dead aggresive I'll be like that for the fight. If i train laid back and defensive I'm a bit too defensive in fights.

The problem is I can't lay into every sparring partner so I end up training defensive.

Fight defensivley but thoughtfully.
enjoy your defencive skills and use them so you guide the opposition out into an area where they go for a shot that your underneath cause you know they are going there before they even think it.
Then you go for the finish because you earned it.

Thats a dream worth persueing.

IF your a great defensive fighter you can get away with so much more than the others.
You can even get smart on timing, if they are slower and you can read them on one of their shots then for example you can even follow their shots back home with your head and body and choke them out on one side for instance. You know they will try one or two things with you that close and into one of their sides like that ;so you plan one or two things in responce.

I envy you your disposition because you can experiment and create a pattern for them to fall into just for your favorite endings if you care to think them out ,on their reactions to where you've put them.

IF you know where someones going before they do, you own them.

Cool, Nice post Andre!

I definitely agree with the last statement tooby the way.
I've become pretty adapt at cutting off the ring, not by my own movements as you would expect, but by causing the opponent to react in the way I want. I fent with a few lefts he'll go right for me. If I take a step to the right he'll go to my left (where a hook will be waiting for him)

So yeah, I completely dig what you're sayong here.

Thought I'd play around with the idea :rolleyes:
You can design things on what you know of your opponent too like when meeting the same fighter the second time or when you know his power limits at the end of the fight etc.

EG: Opening up a hip by placing alot of your weight over one leg with the foot splayed out when in real close gets you out of bother and sets you up into alignment for a devestating end shot (if you can get him to play along in the middle part.)

So ... your nose to nose , your on the ropes ,because you went back there for this whole reason its a plan;

Lets say your not scared of his left 'in close' at all, his right is the one, so you lean over on your right foot and leave him a shot ,a free shot with his left. A tight hook is all he can get off, you roll with it but go down and around from the inside to outside your left glove is high and guarded against his right. ,you've been blocking parring his rights shots off with a mixture of full arm guard and the odd elbow meets his wrist trick :cool: , which places a slight question in his head subtely.
So you then give him a free one on the other side, not a clean shot cause your gloves up at that stage anyway and your already all set to roll with it, your watching his right hand the whole time and he knows it too,you have it covered.
When you feel his left land ,your own left hand drops away as does your right glove just after wards, as your feet start to move too; because he cant throw two shots at this same time and the saftey is in your timing and knowing.

your right glove is down by your hip as you've come under his left hook ,your left glove goes straight up next to your own chin as you turn and open up your hip ; it's a gay assed ,straight up the centre shot that lands clean which takes his left arm even further over to his centre in reaction to this weird beep to his nose.
Your right bomb is fully loaded and now has total right of way as you correct your feet and let him have it over his left elbow which has moved further away in the initial reaction.
The feet go ,right foot steps out on slight splay (land your left as you go down slightly) then left foot goes around the back of you as you come over his left with a fully loaded right gun.
At worse your out of there and still landing as he turns back to see where your at.
IF he collapses or tries to fold and run the other way you keep the close distance and are all over him.

I had a bit of a thought, and it might be complete dribble so please ignore if it is..

Take someone like a Mayweather and how he trained.. Originally he might have had the same thoughts, that he was quite powerful and such and wanted to train that way and improve on that strength. But being thrown in with bigger guys, he would have put a high priority on developing his ability to not get hit... If he got put in with smaller guys he may have trained differently and developed a different style...
LOL see I thought that far, but I can't think how to make a 'point' of my story..
While your in their sparring, 'your' brain is working out,thinking and calculating the best way to fight under that particular circumstance.. Your holding back in one way, exposing yourself in another, making up for the holding back by doing other things etc.. I think this is all developing you into 'your' style... I think if you look in any boxers head they have would have conflicting this where they think or feel they should be doing something else, but a certain person they fight makes them fight in a way that they wouldn't plan to if they had it perfectly their way,,,, but in the end it helps them develop their general boxing ability...

I think it will all fall into place for you even with holding back some of your power. I'm sure the power will be there in a real fight, and the other area's that you've focused on during sparing while your power is being held back will be there too and even more well developed...

Theirs people who know they are powerful and have the big blows and let loose with them in sparring and yeah, they drop their sparring partner all the time, but then when faced with someone with some genuine boxing ability in realtime, they don't have the skills to back up their heavy hands...

I still don't think i've made a point yet.. ???

Anyway, just some more to think about

Thats a good poin5 Dizaster, when one thinks about it, Floyd could quite possibly have gone down the same road as RJJ.
He has super-speed and power at super feather, but he concentrated on skills instead and that choice is still paying dividends for him....
Great point.

My primary problem is that sparring isn't as challenging as fighting. Not because of the opposition but because of myself. I'm tireer after fighting because I let it all out and when I punch at oprimum output I end up far tireder than I do after a sparring session in which I hold back.

Yeah I guess that was my point... That Floyds sparring situations led him to be the brilliant evasivest that you see in the ring today from constantly being thrown in the ring with bigger guys that would take his head off if he came in and tried to force himself on them... Yet had he not had so much sparring with bigger guys, he may have developed a different, more forward/aggressive style that may have worked just as well for him.. But he ended up being P4P one of the best around, so any type of sparring that is stretching and pressuring you in some way is going to make you a stronger fighter

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

My primary problem is that sparring isn't as challenging as fighting. Not because of the opposition but because of myself. I'm tireer after fighting because I let it all out and when I punch at oprimum output I end up far tireder than I do after a sparring session in which I hold back.

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I think that would be true in a lot of cases though, and very hard to simulate the intensity and a lot of other aspects of a real fight during sparring.. I always found it interesting when big fighters are getting ready for a big fight, they'll spa for 12 to 16 rounds, but will have a fresh guy come in every 3 rounds, to help bring the average intensity up to that of a real fight...

I suppose it depends on who your sparring and how much your trainer aims for it to simulate a real fight.. It wouldn't be very productive to go at it full on during to many sparring sessions and could end up overtraining or injuries...

But I completely understand where your coming from and it feels a little off that you spend so much time sparring in a certain way maybe 50 times, for 1 fight where the circumstances are completely different. Different intensity, different intent of your opponent, different mindset needed by you.

I see why you call it a dilemma now, and the more I think about it, the more I have to wrestle with it..

Most other sports, during training you try to simulate the 'real time' event as closely as possible... With sparring though, you're a little like, "okay, he's hitting me like this now, but if this was real he'd be hitting harder, so i'd probalby want to be doing this, and if this was the real fight i'd be going for this shot a little harder" so yeah... hmmm

Exactly Diz thats it mate!

You see so many fighters entering the ring bragging about being able to spar 20 rounds and yet they're gased after 6.

Not only has it to do with the nervous energy and concentration that is added on fight night, it's also because they never try that hard in the gym, period.

For me sparring is all about learning new things. I was never a big hitter my style was more based on speed movement and reflex. I could figure out a lot of fighters in a round and work out either how to nulify their strength or counter with some pain. I put that ability down to always trying to learn new things when sparring.

Your post made me think of George Foreman.... bare with me here... he always wanted to be a skillful jab and moe boxer like Ali and his trainers encouraged this wheh he trained but then when fight time came they'd be screaming in his ear at the start of the first round to jump on the guy and knock him out.

Don't foresake what you are good at in sparring but don't let it be the be all and end all or I don't see how you progress.

I have no training experience this is purely personal experience and my own view point so there will be MANY on here who can probably offer you better advice.

Good Luck.

Thanks Shamrock.
I'm not boasting or anything, but the fighter my style is closest too is Gerald McClellan, as I've said I idolised him. On the inside I try to replicate Cotto or Hatton then.

So when I get in there I do have power and I have to hold back in sparring. Thats my problem, but I'll work it out eventually

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

Thanks Shamrock.
I'm not boasting or anything, but the fighter my style is closest too is Gerald McClellan, as I've said I idolised him. On the inside I try to replicate Cotto or Hatton then.

So when I get in there I do have power and I have to hold back in sparring. Thats my problem, but I'll work it out eventually

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You don't sound like you're boasting mate... you just sound like you are confident about your style which is good.

Are there no guys in the gym who are bigger or more experienced who would maybe agree to spar with you and let you go at full tilt for a few rounds ?

Theres a couple, but there's a couplke of reasons that we don't spar.

There's only one guy I can go full tilt with and he's broken his hand:(

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

Theres a couple, but there's a couplke of reasons that we don't spar.

There's only one guy I can go full tilt with and he's broken his hand:(

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Hows your heavy bag set up?<because you can simulate alot of your movement and clinching if its set up right

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

Thats a good poin5 Dizaster, when one thinks about it, Floyd could quite possibly have gone down the same road as RJJ.
He has super-speed and power at super feather, but he concentrated on skills instead and that choice is still paying dividends for him....
Great point.

My primary problem is that sparring isn't as challenging as fighting. Not because of the opposition but because of myself. I'm tireer after fighting because I let it all out and when I punch at oprimum output I end up far tireder than I do after a sparring session in which I hold back.

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Thats why Im suggesting utilizing what you've got by being comfortable enough in there to be able to get them from any position into your prefered power distance so your practicing being more of a balanced fighter in both the zones you've just mentioned.

That way they come into your power zone by your craft,not just floating in and out at random as is the case in 99% of most fights.

You dont see many fighters step back out from a huddle or any close distance on an opponents certain move or in a certain way that gets them the upper hand on distance within a safe position for themselves.
We see turn abouts on body movement off the ropes ,dragging them in and changing places , but what about arm movement an its effects on balance as the starting point? Their foot placement in relation to yours and how it stopsone of their arms reaching you for that split second .
Not just for finding new angles to see what happens ,but creating new positions and distance off their movments that you know are comming and you moving to your prefered power distance off of that trigger.
Knowing exactly what others limits are when you are either in a certain postion foot wise (on angles ) or creating them by putting pressure on them in some way; Maybe pressure an elbow from the outside as you move forward and then heading out the same way, or shoving then pulling in straight away so it brings them further in on their initial reaction to the shove etc, then side stepping to distance your self to where you can nail them on their reaction is all stuff that opens up alot of new areas to be in so that you can fight in both of the modes you talk about.
Its sparring that gets you used to their reactions to your visual movement and their reactions to feeling you heading somewhere, getting tapped or nailed, pushed , shoved,bluffed or manhandled.

So if your comfortable, thats the time to practice going that one stage further than what you know will happen and you bring them into it on their reaction.

Sorry I can't quote guys, I'm too sick to even think straight...

I did find a benefit of this training during the weekend bout. When a fighter thinks he has you figured out and then puts pressure on you only to find that he's just fallen into your ideal trap.

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

Sorry I can't quote guys, I'm too sick to even think straight...

I did find a benefit of this training during the weekend bout. When a fighter thinks he has you figured out and then puts pressure on you only to find that he's just fallen into your ideal trap.

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Whats up mate? you crook?

Yeah it's a bug thats going around, stomach cramps that feel like knives in my stomach, better today than yesterady though!