The legacy of Sugar Shane Mosely.

Having rewatched Mosely v Cotto AGAIN last night I saw Shane's hesitance to commit to another fight. Shane although in a pleasent mood as always seemed a little disconsolate and refused to definitively answer the question put to him bY HBO'S Max Kellerman.

This made me wonder. Should the Sugar man retire toady, what would your opinion of him be? What are your primary memories and are they fond memories or not?

For me he goes down in history as an ATG Lightweight. This may be a bit much for some people but I feel at 135 he was that good.
I'll always remeber his chin and heart, for a guy who was actually smaller than nearly all of his competition he never was fazed and apart from the Wright and Forrest fights I never saw him beaten decisively.

So.....Thoughts?

I have no issue with watching him fight on for now. He is not as good as he once was, but he still has given a great account of himself. I like the idea he is making some good paychecks to retire with. He deserves it after being so great for the sport.

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

Having rewatched Mosely v Cotto AGAIN last night I saw Shane's hesitance to commit to another fight. Shane although in a pleasent mood as always seemed a little disconsolate and refused to definitively answer the question put to him bY HBO'S Max Kellerman.

This made me wonder. Should the Sugar man retire toady, what would your opinion of him be? What are your primary memories and are they fond memories or not?

For me he goes down in history as an ATG Lightweight. This may be a bit much for some people but I feel at 135 he was that good.
I'll always remeber his chin and heart, for a guy who was actually smaller than nearly all of his competition he never was fazed and apart from the Wright and Forrest fights I never saw him beaten decisively.

So.....Thoughts?

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;) Hey Donny i remember when he was i 135 pnd. ,very faster with a hard shots and also the most of his KO was in that weight and in 140 pnd he was great too , he realy was in his Prime in that ERA.....

I really hope Sugar Shane keeps fighting a while longer, he can more than hold his own in the welterweight division.

His performance against Cotto was better than most probably give him credit for, he lost most of the middle rounds but came back strong at the end and as Kellerman said it was Mosely exerting his will over Cotto in those final rounds rather than the other way around.

We should also remember that prior to that fight he knocked out Vargas and whupped Louis Collazo.

He's still got loads to offer, even at this advanced stage.

I'd pick him to beat any weltwerweight outside of Floyd and Cotto. Guys like Margarito, Williams and Quintana Shane would have an excellent chance to beat and that alone makes me hope he stays in the division a while longer.

Shane was definetly an all time great at lightweight noone could touch him. His hand speed and especially his bodypunching was awesome. I feel as he moved up in weight he lost his combination punching and went for one punch power instead but like Donny said ive seen all Shanes fights and only seen him dominated by Forrest & Wright but these are both awkward fighters to face. I think Mosley did look a bit hesitant in the Cotto fight but noone has pushed Cotto to such a close fight imop and the more I watch the fight the closer I score it.

Mosley will always be one of my favourite fighters not only for his style and his chin but his professional attitude, you rarley hear him dis another opponent and he always gracious in defeat. Plus he never ducked away from a challenge like rematching Forrest and Wright straight after losing to them so convincingly which not many fighters would have done.

I still wish I could have seen Mosley fight Mayweather.

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

Having rewatched Mosely v Cotto AGAIN last night I saw Shane's hesitance to commit to another fight. Shane although in a pleasent mood as always seemed a little disconsolate and refused to definitively answer the question put to him bY HBO'S Max Kellerman.

This made me wonder. Should the Sugar man retire toady, what would your opinion of him be? What are your primary memories and are they fond memories or not?

For me he goes down in history as an ATG Lightweight. This may be a bit much for some people but I feel at 135 he was that good.
I'll always remeber his chin and heart, for a guy who was actually smaller than nearly all of his competition he never was fazed and apart from the Wright and Forrest fights I never saw him beaten decisively.

So.....Thoughts?

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If Shane's heart is not in it I would rather see him retire....Mosley is an ATG....Best at LW but ATG in general....He has only really been beaten by 1 man in his prime years and that was Forrest who also could have been great if he was able to mentally recover from the Mayorga beating...IMO he never really did....

As for my memeories of Mosley...all of them good...Shane has always been a true gentleman...a great face for the sport...his speed was fantastic...his power at LW was dangerous....I always said I would have loved to see a prime Mosley at LW go against Mayweather at LW...IMO Mosley not only beats him but KO's him

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

Having rewatched Mosely v Cotto AGAIN last night I saw Shane's hesitance to commit to another fight. Shane although in a pleasent mood as always seemed a little disconsolate and refused to definitively answer the question put to him bY HBO'S Max Kellerman.

This made me wonder. Should the Sugar man retire toady, what would your opinion of him be? What are your primary memories and are they fond memories or not?

For me he goes down in history as an ATG Lightweight. This may be a bit much for some people but I feel at 135 he was that good.
I'll always remeber his chin and heart, for a guy who was actually smaller than nearly all of his competition he never was fazed and apart from the Wright and Forrest fights I never saw him beaten decisively.

So.....Thoughts?

---

The fact that Mosley could fight even with a fighter like Cotto at his age speaks volumes how much of a great fighter Mosley is. Nice guy outside the ring and a hell of a fighter inside the ring. He had one of the quickest hands i've ever seen i would have loved to have seen Shane Mosley vs Meldrick Taylor can you imagine the speed of the combinations in that fight wow is all i can say. I also think Mosley has one of the best chins in modern day boxing, he was for certain one of the best Lightweights in history i even think he could of beat the legendary Roberto Duran at Lightweight.

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

Having rewatched Mosely v Cotto AGAIN last night I saw Shane's hesitance to commit to another fight. Shane although in a pleasent mood as always seemed a little disconsolate and refused to definitively answer the question put to him bY HBO'S Max Kellerman.

This made me wonder. Should the Sugar man retire toady, what would your opinion of him be? What are your primary memories and are they fond memories or not?

For me he goes down in history as an ATG Lightweight. This may be a bit much for some people but I feel at 135 he was that good.
I'll always remeber his chin and heart, for a guy who was actually smaller than nearly all of his competition he never was fazed and apart from the Wright and Forrest fights I never saw him beaten decisively.

So.....Thoughts?

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He had a very underrated chin. Only knocked down once and then he was only discombobulated after the butt. Unbelievably fast and I only became aware of him when he was a welter. First ballot HOFer.

HIS LEGACY WILL CRASH AND BURN ONCE JUDAH GETS THROUGH WITH HIM...LOL


JKJKJK hes great wish i was able to watch him in his prime (i wasnt a fan of boxing back then)

Judah is on a different level than Mosley, he's never been good with right jabs..
Mosley is just the poor man's Oscar De La hoya

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Originally Posted by Karas

Judah is on a different level than Mosley, he's never been good with right jabs..
Mosley is just the poor man's Oscar De La hoya

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Uhhh.... what?

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Originally Posted by Karas

Judah is on a different level than Mosley, he's never been good with right jabs..
Mosley is just the poor man's Oscar De La hoya

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The poor man's De La Hoya?.....And you smoke what?..:rasta:....Mosley is and was a better fighter then DLH.....the only thing Oscar has over Shane is a left hook....

Mosley is a great fighter, I love re-watching Mosley/ DLH 1! His fight with Cotto proves he's still got a lot to offer. The Judah match-up is intriguing to me... both guys have huge talent but Mosley has lived up to his potential. There are still some hugely exciting bouts available for Mosley in the future!

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Originally Posted by Karas

Judah is on a different level than Mosley, he's never been good with right jabs..
Mosley is just the poor man's Oscar De La hoya

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Bad rep for a terrible post one of the worst i've ever seen.

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

I really hope Sugar Shane keeps fighting a while longer, he can more than hold his own in the welterweight division.

His performance against Cotto was better than most probably give him credit for, he lost most of the middle rounds but came back strong at the end and as Kellerman said it was Mosely exerting his will over Cotto in those final rounds rather than the other way around.

We should also remember that prior to that fight he knocked out Vargas and whupped Louis Collazo.

He's still got loads to offer, even at this advanced stage.

I'd pick him to beat any weltwerweight outside of Floyd and Cotto. Guys like Margarito, Williams and Quintana Shane would have an excellent chance to beat and that alone makes me hope he stays in the division a while longer.

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Bilbo, you are a wise old hobbit. I agree 100%.

Shane is the man. My top current fighter. Takes on any challenge, great attitude, just all around solid. Couldn't ask for a better guy. Skill is tremendous and he actually fights. Mosley is fast enough to be a slick runner who wins decisions, but his character won't allow it. He wants to beat the other guy. He will even fight their style and try to beat them at it. He's the best current fighter and top 5 all time for me.

I know he's not in his prime, but he's the epitome of lb4lb. Most of his career has been with much bigger guys and he still attempted to ko them and beat them rather than just win rounds. The Cotto fight is a perfect example. He made the puncher box because he was getting outpunched. Shane stalked him, and beat him at his own game, lost the decision because of it but that's how he fights.

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Originally Posted by luvfightgame

Shane is the man. My top current fighter. Takes on any challenge, great attitude, just all around solid. Couldn't ask for a better guy. Skill is tremendous and he actually fights. Mosley is fast enough to be a slick runner who wins decisions, but his character won't allow it. He wants to beat the other guy. He will even fight their style and try to beat them at it. He's the best current fighter and top 5 all time for me.

I know he's not in his prime, but he's the epitome of lb4lb. Most of his career has been with much bigger guys and he still attempted to ko them and beat them rather than just win rounds. The Cotto fight is a perfect example. He made the puncher box because he was getting outpunched. Shane stalked him, and beat him at his own game, lost the decision because of it but that's how he fights.

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I respect what your saying mate and I agree Mosley is an ATG but top 5...no not possble

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Originally Posted by ICB

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

Having rewatched Mosely v Cotto AGAIN last night I saw Shane's hesitance to commit to another fight. Shane although in a pleasent mood as always seemed a little disconsolate and refused to definitively answer the question put to him bY HBO'S Max Kellerman.

This made me wonder. Should the Sugar man retire toady, what would your opinion of him be? What are your primary memories and are they fond memories or not?

For me he goes down in history as an ATG Lightweight. This may be a bit much for some people but I feel at 135 he was that good.
I'll always remeber his chin and heart, for a guy who was actually smaller than nearly all of his competition he never was fazed and apart from the Wright and Forrest fights I never saw him beaten decisively.

So.....Thoughts?

---

The fact that Mosley could fight even with a fighter like Cotto at his age speaks volumes how much of a great fighter Mosley is. Nice guy outside the ring and a hell of a fighter inside the ring. He had one of the quickest hands i've ever seen i would have loved to have seen Shane Mosley vs Meldrick Taylor can you imagine the speed of the combinations in that fight wow is all i can say. I also think Mosley has one of the best chins in modern day boxing, he was for certain one of the best Lightweights in history i even think he could of beat the legendary Roberto Duran at Lightweight.

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He's absolutely a top 3 ATG Lightweight and a top 20 WW. He was unstoppable at 135 and one of the tops of his generation for WW. I was talking about Shane with one of his cousins, and he told me the only guy who ever really had Shane hurt was Forrest. Shane vs Duran at 135 would be amazing.

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Originally Posted by RozzySean

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Originally Posted by ICB

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

Having rewatched Mosely v Cotto AGAIN last night I saw Shane's hesitance to commit to another fight. Shane although in a pleasent mood as always seemed a little disconsolate and refused to definitively answer the question put to him bY HBO'S Max Kellerman.

This made me wonder. Should the Sugar man retire toady, what would your opinion of him be? What are your primary memories and are they fond memories or not?

For me he goes down in history as an ATG Lightweight. This may be a bit much for some people but I feel at 135 he was that good.
I'll always remeber his chin and heart, for a guy who was actually smaller than nearly all of his competition he never was fazed and apart from the Wright and Forrest fights I never saw him beaten decisively.

So.....Thoughts?

---

The fact that Mosley could fight even with a fighter like Cotto at his age speaks volumes how much of a great fighter Mosley is. Nice guy outside the ring and a hell of a fighter inside the ring. He had one of the quickest hands i've ever seen i would have loved to have seen Shane Mosley vs Meldrick Taylor can you imagine the speed of the combinations in that fight wow is all i can say. I also think Mosley has one of the best chins in modern day boxing, he was for certain one of the best Lightweights in history i even think he could of beat the legendary Roberto Duran at Lightweight.

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He's absolutely a top 3 ATG Lightweight and a top 20 WW. He was unstoppable at 135 and one of the tops of his generation for WW. I was talking about Shane with one of his cousins, and he told me the only guy who ever really had Shane hurt was Forrest. Shane vs Duran at 135 would be amazing.

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Top 3? He struggles to make top 10 IMO

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Originally Posted by Galaxy

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Originally Posted by RozzySean

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Originally Posted by ICB

The fact that Mosley could fight even with a fighter like Cotto at his age speaks volumes how much of a great fighter Mosley is. Nice guy outside the ring and a hell of a fighter inside the ring. He had one of the quickest hands i've ever seen i would have loved to have seen Shane Mosley vs Meldrick Taylor can you imagine the speed of the combinations in that fight wow is all i can say. I also think Mosley has one of the best chins in modern day boxing, he was for certain one of the best Lightweights in history i even think he could of beat the legendary Roberto Duran at Lightweight.

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He's absolutely a top 3 ATG Lightweight and a top 20 WW. He was unstoppable at 135 and one of the tops of his generation for WW. I was talking about Shane with one of his cousins, and he told me the only guy who ever really had Shane hurt was Forrest. Shane vs Duran at 135 would be amazing.

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Top 3? He struggles to make top 10 IMO

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I could argue 20 reasons he belongs among the top ...

Speed.....fastas any LW in history faster then most

Power..Hit hard....especially in combos

Chin...Never even wobbled at 135 he was slick, youu name it he had it....How many reasons can you name why he isn't worthy of top 10?

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Originally Posted by DaxxKahn

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Originally Posted by Galaxy

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Originally Posted by RozzySean

He's absolutely a top 3 ATG Lightweight and a top 20 WW. He was unstoppable at 135 and one of the tops of his generation for WW. I was talking about Shane with one of his cousins, and he told me the only guy who ever really had Shane hurt was Forrest. Shane vs Duran at 135 would be amazing.

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Top 3? He struggles to make top 10 IMO

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I could argue 20 reasons he belongs among the top ...

Speed.....fastas any LW in history faster then most

Power..Hit hard....especially in combos

Chin...Never even wobbled at 135 he was slick, youu name it he had it....How many reasons can you name why he isn't worthy of top 10?

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Duran, Leonard, Whiitaker, Gans, Williams, Brown, Ortiz, Canzoneri, Montgomery, Jack, Ambers, Welsh... theres more than 10 reasons right there

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Originally Posted by Galaxy

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Originally Posted by DaxxKahn

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Originally Posted by Galaxy

Top 3? He struggles to make top 10 IMO

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I could argue 20 reasons he belongs among the top ...

Speed.....fastas any LW in history faster then most

Power..Hit hard....especially in combos

Chin...Never even wobbled at 135 he was slick, youu name it he had it....How many reasons can you name why he isn't worthy of top 10?

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Duran, Leonard, Whiitaker, Gans, Williams, Brown, Ortiz, Canzoneri, Montgomery, Jack, Ambers, Welsh... theres more than 10 reasons right there

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Perspective and respect.What a wonderful Attribute.Oh Galaxy, you know that If we dont see them on DVD though .......They do not count Lol.Speaking at Lightweight, Very good and superb top notch talent but not an all time great Imo.

I've enjoyed everything he has brought to the table for all of us, I cant belive there are detractors of the mans efforts in here.

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Originally Posted by DaxxKahn

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Originally Posted by Karas

Judah is on a different level than Mosley, he's never been good with right jabs..
Mosley is just the poor man's Oscar De La hoya

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The poor man's De La Hoya?.....And you smoke what?..:rasta:....Mosley is and was a better fighter then DLH.....the only thing Oscar has over Shane is a left hook....

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Lol Shane dominated Oscar everytime they shared a ring !

Shane at his best was one of the all time greats of any era .

Shane is not finished yet he still has a lot to offer provided he is motivated and can get out of his silk pyjamas.

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Originally Posted by DaxxKahn

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Originally Posted by luvfightgame

Shane is the man. My top current fighter. Takes on any challenge, great attitude, just all around solid. Couldn't ask for a better guy. Skill is tremendous and he actually fights. Mosley is fast enough to be a slick runner who wins decisions, but his character won't allow it. He wants to beat the other guy. He will even fight their style and try to beat them at it. He's the best current fighter and top 5 all time for me.

I know he's not in his prime, but he's the epitome of lb4lb. Most of his career has been with much bigger guys and he still attempted to ko them and beat them rather than just win rounds. The Cotto fight is a perfect example. He made the puncher box because he was getting outpunched. Shane stalked him, and beat him at his own game, lost the decision because of it but that's how he fights.

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I respect what your saying mate and I agree Mosley is an ATG but top 5...no not possble

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It's my list where he's top 5. It's comprised of fighters I like. I am knowledgeable with fighters of the 80's and up. Other than SRR I don't go back past the 80's. Everything I would know about guys older than that is hearsay, cause I haven't seen them fight. My list is more current guys, and the requirements are mainly that I like them. Sounds really simple, but believe it or not it's harder to get on that list than it is in the hall of fame. I just don't like that many fighters. I'm not a hater, but I don't really become a fan of very many fighters. :dontknow:

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Originally Posted by Galaxy

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Originally Posted by RozzySean

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Originally Posted by ICB

The fact that Mosley could fight even with a fighter like Cotto at his age speaks volumes how much of a great fighter Mosley is. Nice guy outside the ring and a hell of a fighter inside the ring. He had one of the quickest hands i've ever seen i would have loved to have seen Shane Mosley vs Meldrick Taylor can you imagine the speed of the combinations in that fight wow is all i can say. I also think Mosley has one of the best chins in modern day boxing, he was for certain one of the best Lightweights in history i even think he could of beat the legendary Roberto Duran at Lightweight.

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He's absolutely a top 3 ATG Lightweight and a top 20 WW. He was unstoppable at 135 and one of the tops of his generation for WW. I was talking about Shane with one of his cousins, and he told me the only guy who ever really had Shane hurt was Forrest. Shane vs Duran at 135 would be amazing.

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Top 3? He struggles to make top 10 IMO

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He struggles to make your your top 10 in at 135? That's pretty surprising. I can't imagine anybody not including him in a list of top 10 lightweights. Do you remember young, prime, lightweight Sugar Shane?

Although i agree Seanie i can still understand Galaxy's point. There has been many great Lightweights and i just done this top 10 list off the top of my head not in order of some of the greatest Lightweights of all time. And i could have easily left Mosley off this list and replaced him with Esteban De Jesus or etc.

Benny Leonard
Roberto Duran
Joe Gans
Shane Mosley
Tony Canzoneri
Carlos Ortiz
Pernell Whitaker
Ike Williams
Joe Brown
Jimmy Carter

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Originally Posted by Karas

Judah is on a different level than Mosley, he's never been good with right jabs..
Mosley is just the poor man's Oscar De La hoya

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Every time I read one of your posts a brain cell dies as the people attempt to figure out how anyone can have such a poor boxing knowledge.

while Mosley was an EXCELLENT lightweight he just doesnt have enough good names on his record to be considered an all time great at the weight. and at welter his record was patchy at best,2 losses to Forrest ,a close win over the transves....i mean De La Hoya, a KO of Adrian stone, a loss to Cotto(clear im my opinion) .....i mean its hardly great.
but i always liked Shane,he was a brave guy with a real fighters attitude but what do you think of his drug use??? nobody mentioned it yet.
i for one think it should count against him.a cheat is a cheat whether we like it or not .

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Originally Posted by RozzySean

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Originally Posted by Galaxy

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Originally Posted by RozzySean

He's absolutely a top 3 ATG Lightweight and a top 20 WW. He was unstoppable at 135 and one of the tops of his generation for WW. I was talking about Shane with one of his cousins, and he told me the only guy who ever really had Shane hurt was Forrest. Shane vs Duran at 135 would be amazing.

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Top 3? He struggles to make top 10 IMO

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He struggles to make your your top 10 in at 135? That's pretty surprising. I can't imagine anybody not including him in a list of top 10 lightweights. Do you remember young, prime, lightweight Sugar Shane?

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Yes I remember & in regards to ability Shane may belong alongside Duran, Leonard or Whitaker. But his record at 135 is good not legendary & not enough to get rated with them. He never went after Johnston to unify the title although I'm sure he would have been the favorite. His challenges weren't that impressive... Leija & Molina weren't prime when Mosley fought them. Overall IMO the guys I listed in a previous post had greater credentials at 135 than Mosley.

Mosley was a phenom and tremendous talent but I think he was part of the huge rush to not really clean out or unify a division but rather to get to the big name fights.......Oscar.It happens more and more.He might of very well whipped over Amatuer rival Johnston (?) & might have Been way to fast for Nazarov (Naz had a chance with the power,too bad for wanting to much money) but we will never know.

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Originally Posted by barrykil1980

while Mosley was an EXCELLENT lightweight he just doesnt have enough good names on his record to be considered an all time great at the weight. and at welter his record was patchy at best,2 losses to Forrest ,a close win over the transves....i mean De La Hoya, a KO of Adrian stone, a loss to Cotto(clear im my opinion) .....i mean its hardly great.
but i always liked Shane,he was a brave guy with a real fighters attitude but what do you think of his drug use??? nobody mentioned it yet.
i for one think it should count against him.a cheat is a cheat whether we like it or not .

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Shane never tested positive, nor was he ever accused of steroid use.

The only issue was his links to the BALCO organistaion and the use of HGH was mentioned.

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Originally Posted by Galaxy

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Originally Posted by RozzySean

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Originally Posted by Galaxy

Top 3? He struggles to make top 10 IMO

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He struggles to make your your top 10 in at 135? That's pretty surprising. I can't imagine anybody not including him in a list of top 10 lightweights. Do you remember young, prime, lightweight Sugar Shane?

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Yes I remember & in regards to ability Shane may belong alongside Duran, Leonard or Whitaker. But his record at 135 is good not legendary & not enough to get rated with them. He never went after Johnston to unify the title although I'm sure he would have been the favorite. His challenges weren't that impressive... Leija & Molina weren't prime when Mosley fought them. Overall IMO the guys I listed in a previous post had greater credentials at 135 than Mosley.

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Why do you list Leonard when he never fought at 135? Why would he fight Johnson when he could move up and challenge ODLH for big money? Shane would have destroyed Stevie Johnson. There was no need to urgency to unify the belts because everybody knew Shane was clearly tops at 135 and the public was far more interested in Shane moving up in weight than fight in weak LW division. Not for nothing, but Duran's (who is one of my favorite fighters) fought lots of crap at 135. De Jesus and Buchanan were probably his two best opponents at 135. His crowning moment was beating Sugar Ray, and that came at WW.

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Originally Posted by RozzySean

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Originally Posted by Galaxy

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Originally Posted by RozzySean

He struggles to make your your top 10 in at 135? That's pretty surprising. I can't imagine anybody not including him in a list of top 10 lightweights. Do you remember young, prime, lightweight Sugar Shane?

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Yes I remember & in regards to ability Shane may belong alongside Duran, Leonard or Whitaker. But his record at 135 is good not legendary & not enough to get rated with them. He never went after Johnston to unify the title although I'm sure he would have been the favorite. His challenges weren't that impressive... Leija & Molina weren't prime when Mosley fought them. Overall IMO the guys I listed in a previous post had greater credentials at 135 than Mosley.

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Why do you list Leonard when he never fought at 135? Why would he fight Johnson when he could move up and challenge ODLH for big money? Shane would have destroyed Stevie Johnson. There was no need to urgency to unify the belts because everybody knew Shane was clearly tops at 135 and the public was far more interested in Shane moving up in weight than fight in weak LW division. Not for nothing, but Duran's (who is one of my favorite fighters) fought lots of crap at 135. De Jesus and Buchanan were probably his two best opponents at 135. His crowning moment was beating Sugar Ray, and that came at WW.

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Benny Leonard not Ray Leonard!

Becoming undisputed champion means more than just holding a belt. Duran, Leonard, Whitaker, Gans, Williams, Brown, Ortiz, Canzoneri, Ambers & Welsh were all world champions at 135, Shane was just a belt holder!!! How does interest in fighting Oscar effect Shane's all time ranking at 135? It doesn't! Becoming World champion would have helped.

Duran had 12 title defenses, 11 by KO & reigned for 6 years. Duran could do it all in the ring. He could make guys miss then he'd kill their body. He could cut of the ring on some of the best movers, he could switch between southpaw & orthodox seamlessly. Duran was born to fight!!!

Judah is gonna make Mosley wish he was never born. ;D

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Originally Posted by Galaxy

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Originally Posted by RozzySean

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Originally Posted by Galaxy

Yes I remember & in regards to ability Shane may belong alongside Duran, Leonard or Whitaker. But his record at 135 is good not legendary & not enough to get rated with them. He never went after Johnston to unify the title although I'm sure he would have been the favorite. His challenges weren't that impressive... Leija & Molina weren't prime when Mosley fought them. Overall IMO the guys I listed in a previous post had greater credentials at 135 than Mosley.

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Why do you list Leonard when he never fought at 135? Why would he fight Johnson when he could move up and challenge ODLH for big money? Shane would have destroyed Stevie Johnson. There was no need to urgency to unify the belts because everybody knew Shane was clearly tops at 135 and the public was far more interested in Shane moving up in weight than fight in weak LW division. Not for nothing, but Duran's (who is one of my favorite fighters) fought lots of crap at 135. De Jesus and Buchanan were probably his two best opponents at 135. His crowning moment was beating Sugar Ray, and that came at WW.

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Benny Leonard not Ray Leonard!

Becoming undisputed champion means more than just holding a belt. Duran, Leonard, Whitaker, Gans, Williams, Brown, Ortiz, Canzoneri, Ambers & Welsh were all world champions at 135, Shane was just a belt holder!!! How does interest in fighting Oscar effect Shane's all time ranking at 135? It doesn't! Becoming World champion would have helped.

Duran had 12 title defenses, 11 by KO & reigned for 6 years. Duran could do it all in the ring. He could make guys miss then he'd kill their body. He could cut of the ring on some of the best movers, he could switch between southpaw & orthodox seamlessly. Duran was born to fight!!!

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I agree that Duran could do it all and I'm not saying that Shane is ahead of Duran. Keep in mind, that Duran won the belt before alphabet soup, so he didn't have the problem of having lesser guys out there than he needed to fight to be considered the real champ. He one the belt, then beat up on mostly mediocre fighters for 6 years.

It's also almost impossible to compare Shane to Benny Leonard. He was in such an earlier era. It's not even like Robinson, where we have a good amount of decent tape on him.

I just don't care that Shane didn't unify at 135. He had nothing to prove in that division at the time. He was head and shoulders above everyone else, and all the clamor was for him to fight Oscar. Whitaker has real opponents, decent beltholters to fight to make unifying worth it. Had there been another beltholder on the level of Azumah Nelson that Mosley ducked, fine, kill him for it, but I don't give a rat's ass that Shane skipped Stevie Johnson to move up to fight Oscar when the whole boxing world was asking for it.

At 135, Shane was a force of nature, and there is only a handful of fighters who could hang with him at that weight - Duran, Mayweather, Whitaker. Maybe old Benny Leonard had more longevity, but doubt he had more talent and skill than Shane.

It's like keeping Jim Rice out the baseball of fame because he didn't play long enough to pad his stats. If you are of a certain mindset, he doesn't deserve it because he comes up short in the stats game, but when you use your eyes and your brains, you know he belongs. Everybody new he was the most feared right handed bat in the league for 10 years. You can point to inflated numbers from longer careers, but I look at how dominate you were at the time and your overall skills, and Shane is CLEARLY at best a top 5 LW and no worse than top 10.

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Originally Posted by RozzySean

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Originally Posted by Galaxy

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Originally Posted by RozzySean

Why do you list Leonard when he never fought at 135? Why would he fight Johnson when he could move up and challenge ODLH for big money? Shane would have destroyed Stevie Johnson. There was no need to urgency to unify the belts because everybody knew Shane was clearly tops at 135 and the public was far more interested in Shane moving up in weight than fight in weak LW division. Not for nothing, but Duran's (who is one of my favorite fighters) fought lots of crap at 135. De Jesus and Buchanan were probably his two best opponents at 135. His crowning moment was beating Sugar Ray, and that came at WW.

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Benny Leonard not Ray Leonard!

Becoming undisputed champion means more than just holding a belt. Duran, Leonard, Whitaker, Gans, Williams, Brown, Ortiz, Canzoneri, Ambers & Welsh were all world champions at 135, Shane was just a belt holder!!! How does interest in fighting Oscar effect Shane's all time ranking at 135? It doesn't! Becoming World champion would have helped.

Duran had 12 title defenses, 11 by KO & reigned for 6 years. Duran could do it all in the ring. He could make guys miss then he'd kill their body. He could cut of the ring on some of the best movers, he could switch between southpaw & orthodox seamlessly. Duran was born to fight!!!

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I agree that Duran could do it all and I'm not saying that Shane is ahead of Duran. Keep in mind, that Duran won the belt before alphabet soup, so he didn't have the problem of having lesser guys out there than he needed to fight to be considered the real champ. He one the belt, then beat up on mostly mediocre fighters for 6 years.

It's also almost impossible to compare Shane to Benny Leonard. He was in such an earlier era. It's not even like Robinson, where we have a good amount of decent tape on him.

I just don't care that Shane didn't unify at 135. He had nothing to prove in that division at the time. He was head and shoulders above everyone else, and all the clamor was for him to fight Oscar. Whitaker has real opponents, decent beltholters to fight to make unifying worth it. Had there been another beltholder on the level of Azumah Nelson that Mosley ducked, fine, kill him for it, but I don't give a rat's ass that Shane skipped Stevie Johnson to move up to fight Oscar when the whole boxing world was asking for it.

At 135, Shane was a force of nature, and there is only a handful of fighters who could hang with him at that weight - Duran, Mayweather, Whitaker. Maybe old Benny Leonard had more longevity, but doubt he had more talent and skill than Shane.

It's like keeping Jim Rice out the baseball of fame because he didn't play long enough to pad his stats. If you are of a certain mindset, he doesn't deserve it because he comes up short in the stats game, but when you use your eyes and your brains, you know he belongs. Everybody new he was the most feared right handed bat in the league for 10 years. You can point to inflated numbers from longer careers, but I look at how dominate you were at the time and your overall skills, and Shane is CLEARLY at best a top 5 LW and no worse than top 10.

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Take a look at Mosleys challenges if you want to see mediocre... Gomez, Ceballos, Ruiz, Morales, Johnson, Brown... Leija & Molina weren't prime.

When ranking ATG's in a weight class from different eras you have to look at their overall body of work. You should do some research on Leonard you might be surprised his numbers are amazing! Over 200 fights & just 5 loses. 3 of those loses came in his 1st year as a pro. 1 in his last fight. The other was a dq to Jack Britton for the 147 pound championship. Leonard fought the best lightweights & welterweights around & was winning. Leonard fought everyone & is one of the greatest fighters P4P ever!

You say you don't care about Mosley not unifying & had nothing to prove but he had everything to prove if he wanted to be considered among the best 135's ever. That's what he had to prove. (Mike Tyson seemed head & shoulders above Douglas but we know what happened there, thats why they fight the fights!).

I've never said Mosley does not belong in the hall of fame, but IMO he does belong in the top 10 greatest lightweights ever. I'd rate him about 13th. As I said in a previous post ability wise he belongs with those guys but his credentials don't stack up to the other guys. Mosley's lightweight legacy isn't legendary. It's good!

Putting Mosley in the top 5 is insulting to Gans & Williams. Putting Mosley in the top 10 based on what he achieved at 135 just shows you need to do some research on guys like Brown (an even greater lightweight once he won the title), Ortiz (who fought every credible challenger available), Canzoneri (1 ko loss in 175 fights), Montgomery (Williams & Jack triangle, those six fights represented the Bobcat at his very best), Jack (fought more main events at Madison Square Garden than any other fighter), Ambers (fought the best lightweights around), Welsh (won newspaper decisions over the great Benny Leonard). These guys have got legendary lightweight legacies. Not just good ones!!!

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Originally Posted by Galaxy

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Originally Posted by RozzySean

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Originally Posted by Galaxy

Benny Leonard not Ray Leonard!

Becoming undisputed champion means more than just holding a belt. Duran, Leonard, Whitaker, Gans, Williams, Brown, Ortiz, Canzoneri, Ambers & Welsh were all world champions at 135, Shane was just a belt holder!!! How does interest in fighting Oscar effect Shane's all time ranking at 135? It doesn't! Becoming World champion would have helped.

Duran had 12 title defenses, 11 by KO & reigned for 6 years. Duran could do it all in the ring. He could make guys miss then he'd kill their body. He could cut of the ring on some of the best movers, he could switch between southpaw & orthodox seamlessly. Duran was born to fight!!!

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I agree that Duran could do it all and I'm not saying that Shane is ahead of Duran. Keep in mind, that Duran won the belt before alphabet soup, so he didn't have the problem of having lesser guys out there than he needed to fight to be considered the real champ. He one the belt, then beat up on mostly mediocre fighters for 6 years.

It's also almost impossible to compare Shane to Benny Leonard. He was in such an earlier era. It's not even like Robinson, where we have a good amount of decent tape on him.

I just don't care that Shane didn't unify at 135. He had nothing to prove in that division at the time. He was head and shoulders above everyone else, and all the clamor was for him to fight Oscar. Whitaker has real opponents, decent beltholters to fight to make unifying worth it. Had there been another beltholder on the level of Azumah Nelson that Mosley ducked, fine, kill him for it, but I don't give a rat's ass that Shane skipped Stevie Johnson to move up to fight Oscar when the whole boxing world was asking for it.

At 135, Shane was a force of nature, and there is only a handful of fighters who could hang with him at that weight - Duran, Mayweather, Whitaker. Maybe old Benny Leonard had more longevity, but doubt he had more talent and skill than Shane.

It's like keeping Jim Rice out the baseball of fame because he didn't play long enough to pad his stats. If you are of a certain mindset, he doesn't deserve it because he comes up short in the stats game, but when you use your eyes and your brains, you know he belongs. Everybody new he was the most feared right handed bat in the league for 10 years. You can point to inflated numbers from longer careers, but I look at how dominate you were at the time and your overall skills, and Shane is CLEARLY at best a top 5 LW and no worse than top 10.

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Take a look at Mosleys challenges if you want to see mediocre... Gomez, Ceballos, Ruiz, Morales, Johnson, Brown... Leija & Molina weren't prime.

When ranking ATG's in a weight class from different eras you have to look at their overall body of work. You should do some research on Leonard you might be surprised his numbers are amazing! Over 200 fights & just 5 loses. 3 of those loses came in his 1st year as a pro. 1 in his last fight. The other was a dq to Jack Britton for the 147 pound championship. Leonard fought the best lightweights & welterweights around & was winning. Leonard fought everyone & is one of the greatest fighters P4P ever!

You say you don't care about Mosley not unifying & had nothing to prove but he had everything to prove if he wanted to be considered among the best 135's ever. That's what he had to prove. (Mike Tyson seemed head & shoulders above Douglas but we know what happened there, thats why they fight the fights!).

I've never said Mosley does not belong in the hall of fame, but IMO he does belong in the top 10 greatest lightweights ever. I'd rate him about 13th. As I said in a previous post ability wise he belongs with those guys but his credentials don't stack up to the other guys. Mosley's lightweight legacy isn't legendary. It's good!

Putting Mosley in the top 5 is insulting to Gans & Williams. Putting Mosley in the top 10 based on what he achieved at 135 just shows you need to do some research on guys like Brown (an even greater lightweight once he won the title), Ortiz (who fought every credible challenger available), Canzoneri (1 ko loss in 175 fights), Montgomery (Williams & Jack triangle, those six fights represented the Bobcat at his very best), Jack (fought more main events at Madison Square Garden than any other fighter), Ambers (fought the best lightweights around), Welsh (won newspaper decisions over the great Benny Leonard). These guys have got legendary lightweight legacies. Not just good ones!!!

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So where do you rate RJJ compared to other great LHW's. He must be way behind Tommy Loughran on your card? Behind Archie Moore, too. Jones must be way behind Calzaghe at 168 on your card, too. That's fine, if you see things that way, but that's basically the argument you are making. Fair enough, but I see things through different lenses.

haha and now wat do u think of mosley after destruction of mararito