Padwork

Recently I've become frustrated with the lack of quality padwork I've been receiving, but it's brought me to think of the methods of padwork I prefer.
Many Irish coaches hold the pads back and allow the fighter to throw full force punches at the pads, as hard and fast as possible. For me this isn't ideal as the combinations become sloppy and the fighter tires easily, which negates the ability to learn.

At the trainers course I was told under no citcumstances should I bring the pad forward, just to hold it back and let the fighter do the work. To be honest I think the best way to do is to bring the pad forward.
-I call the combination, which is thrown below full speed at half power and meet the punches as they extend to full length.
-Making it the responsibility of the coach to ensure the punches are correct. I find by throwing under optimum "fire power," the combinations are memorised better, thrown more correctly and with a better technique.

For example, it's so easy for a fighter to get into sloppy habits throwing the double jab. By "slapping" the pad a bit it makes the fighter connect well and with a sense of realism.

Any trainers or fighters have any thoughts?

I was once called the man on pads, when in the states the gyms would stop when I was on them. Now the older I get the less I believe in them. You are not teaching the fighter you are teaching yourself to look good. Now people will say look at so and so they look teriffic on the pads, maybe but what construction do they bring to learning. In the cold light of day not a lot Ill argue. There are better ways Biomechanicaly to invest in good technique and form. One way is Teaching Muscle memory by other ways, plus teaching intelectual form patterns of where and when. Its down to the coach to use the Grey matter and think and have the ability to give the fighter that ability to do the same ;D

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Originally Posted by Scrap

I was once called the man on pads, when in the states the gyms would stop when I was on them. Now the older I get the less I believe in them. You are not teaching the fighter you are teaching yourself to look good. Now people will say look at so and so they look teriffic on the pads, maybe but what construction do they bring to learning. In the cold light of day not a lot Ill argue. There are better ways Biomechanicaly to invest in good technique and form. One way is Teaching Muscle memory by other ways, plus teaching intelectual form patterns of where and when. Its down to the coach to use the Grey matter and think and have the ability to give the fighter that ability to do the same ;D

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Well I'll listen to you Scrap, you obviously no more than I on the subject.

I do find them good though If they're done the right way. Before a fight or spar I repeat the same combinations a number of times and jab them a bit and I can get the right "rhythm" going.
But I'm open to any suggestions as an alternative,

I give a lot away on here, Those things stay in house for a bit its taken a few years to find out Truths on the system.:-X

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Originally Posted by Scrap

I give a lot away on here, Those things stay in house for a bit its taken a few years to find out Truths on the system.:-X

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Understand completely.
Thats why my sparring vid, is only play sparring. None of the serious stuff;)
Well maybe on the hidden board

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

Recently I've become frustrated with the lack of quality padwork I've been receiving, but it's brought me to think of the methods of padwork I prefer.
Many Irish coaches hold the pads back and allow the fighter to throw full force punches at the pads, as hard and fast as possible. For me this isn't ideal as the combinations become sloppy and the fighter tires easily, which negates the ability to learn.

At the trainers course I was told under no citcumstances should I bring the pad forward, just to hold it back and let the fighter do the work. To be honest I think the best way to do is to bring the pad forward.
-I call the combination, which is thrown below full speed at half power and meet the punches as they extend to full length.
-Making it the responsibility of the coach to ensure the punches are correct. I find by throwing under optimum "fire power," the combinations are memorised better, thrown more correctly and with a better technique.

For example, it's so easy for a fighter to get into sloppy habits throwing the double jab. By "slapping" the pad a bit it makes the fighter connect well and with a sense of realism.

Any trainers or fighters have any thoughts?

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My trainer slaps back with the pads and smacks me in the head or body if I get sloppy. He calls the combos, then I fire off. He'll also move me around and make me work on my footwork while working pad.

Scrap, it's funny you say that about pads. I spar with guy who just kills the pads - fast, sharp, great combos, good form. He's MUCH more impressive on the pads than I am. But put him in the ring, I own him. The first time we sparred, I though he was going to eat me up with his handspeed and combos - do a Calzaghe to my Jeff Lacy. Nope. Once he gets in the ring, it all goes out the window. It's a mental thing. Now we are working together with punch-counterpunch-slip drills and that helps us both a lot.

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Originally Posted by RozzySean

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

Recently I've become frustrated with the lack of quality padwork I've been receiving, but it's brought me to think of the methods of padwork I prefer.
Many Irish coaches hold the pads back and allow the fighter to throw full force punches at the pads, as hard and fast as possible. For me this isn't ideal as the combinations become sloppy and the fighter tires easily, which negates the ability to learn.

At the trainers course I was told under no citcumstances should I bring the pad forward, just to hold it back and let the fighter do the work. To be honest I think the best way to do is to bring the pad forward.
-I call the combination, which is thrown below full speed at half power and meet the punches as they extend to full length.
-Making it the responsibility of the coach to ensure the punches are correct. I find by throwing under optimum "fire power," the combinations are memorised better, thrown more correctly and with a better technique.

For example, it's so easy for a fighter to get into sloppy habits throwing the double jab. By "slapping" the pad a bit it makes the fighter connect well and with a sense of realism.

Any trainers or fighters have any thoughts?

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My trainer slaps back with the pads and smacks me in the head or body if I get sloppy. He calls the combos, then I fire off. He'll also move me around and make me work on my footwork while working pad.

Scrap, it's funny you say that about pads. I spar with guy who just kills the pads - fast, sharp, great combos, good form. He's MUCH more impressive on the pads than I am. But put him in the ring, I own him. The first time we sparred, I though he was going to eat me up with his handspeed and combos - do a Calzaghe to my Jeff Lacy. Nope. Once he gets in the ring, it all goes out the window. It's a mental thing. Now we are working together with punch-counterpunch-slip drills and that helps us both a lot.

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The pads are a drill really, it's up to the trainer to make it beneficial.
I'm thinking that it's only good as a sharpening point for already rehearsed strtegic combinations and a confidence booster.

Many guys look unreal on the pads, but just flop in the ring. I fought this guy, I was really intimidated because he had a superb jab on the pads. I just warmed out by jumping back and forth and loosening out. I closed his eye with the jab and stopped him.
I hate to sound like I'm boasting, but I wanted to prove I agreed entirely with your point.

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

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Originally Posted by RozzySean

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

Recently I've become frustrated with the lack of quality padwork I've been receiving, but it's brought me to think of the methods of padwork I prefer.
Many Irish coaches hold the pads back and allow the fighter to throw full force punches at the pads, as hard and fast as possible. For me this isn't ideal as the combinations become sloppy and the fighter tires easily, which negates the ability to learn.

At the trainers course I was told under no citcumstances should I bring the pad forward, just to hold it back and let the fighter do the work. To be honest I think the best way to do is to bring the pad forward.
-I call the combination, which is thrown below full speed at half power and meet the punches as they extend to full length.
-Making it the responsibility of the coach to ensure the punches are correct. I find by throwing under optimum "fire power," the combinations are memorised better, thrown more correctly and with a better technique.

For example, it's so easy for a fighter to get into sloppy habits throwing the double jab. By "slapping" the pad a bit it makes the fighter connect well and with a sense of realism.

Any trainers or fighters have any thoughts?

---

My trainer slaps back with the pads and smacks me in the head or body if I get sloppy. He calls the combos, then I fire off. He'll also move me around and make me work on my footwork while working pad.

Scrap, it's funny you say that about pads. I spar with guy who just kills the pads - fast, sharp, great combos, good form. He's MUCH more impressive on the pads than I am. But put him in the ring, I own him. The first time we sparred, I though he was going to eat me up with his handspeed and combos - do a Calzaghe to my Jeff Lacy. Nope. Once he gets in the ring, it all goes out the window. It's a mental thing. Now we are working together with punch-counterpunch-slip drills and that helps us both a lot.

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The pads are a drill really, it's up to the trainer to make it beneficial.
I'm thinking that it's only good as a sharpening point for already rehearsed strtegic combinations and a confidence booster.

Many guys look unreal on the pads, but just flop in the ring. I fought this guy, I was really intimidated because he had a superb jab on the pads. I just warmed out by jumping back and forth and loosening out. I closed his eye with the jab and stopped him.
I hate to sound like I'm boasting, but I wanted to prove I agreed entirely with your point.

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Pads don't punch back. Even if the trainer is smacking with them to let you know where you screwed up, you aren't faced with prospect of getting busted back hard.

The more I spar the more I realize that sparring, and probably fighting too, is at least 50% mental. I'm 35 years old and a relative beginner, and I can hold my own. This isn't to say I would be great in competition or I kick peoples ass. I get beat on plenty, but every bloody nose is a lesson I couldn't learn in weeks on the pads. It's not that I like getting hit, but it doesn't seem to bother me the way it bothers some people. This lets me hang in with more experienced guys, take my licks, and learn my lessons.

Too much padwork and not enough drilling with a partner or sparring can hurt you, it think. I get more out of pad work now that I'm sparring regularly because I can work fight specific things, work on fixing problems that cause me to get hit or to not land. Like you said, it's a tool, and the objective is learn to box against an opponent, not put on a show against mitts.

If you take the first shot away from a pad trained Fighter the rest of the combo goes out the window. The annalising that takes place on his face is a Picture, lets start again ;D.

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Originally Posted by Scrap

If you take the first shot away from a pad trained Fighter the rest of the combo goes out the window. The annalising that takes place on his face is a Picture, lets start again ;D.

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That's a great way of putting it.

Here's the thing, with all the "fitness" boxing that's happening in the States, lots of people become overtrained on the pads. Then if they want to take the next step, they have to overcome that approach.

I really can't remember the last time I was on the pads, we just don't do them in our gym as our trainer doesn't believe in them. I guess for the reasons expressed here.

What do you do as an alternative Salty?

We do a lot more partner work instead, we'll get directions say a combination for the attacker, while the defender might have to parry the first few and then counter punch. It slowly builds up so after about half an hour it becomes light sparring and then we will do the proper sparring. Which i find works well for me as I hate the pads, due to the fact that I tend to overthink things. Where as in sparring I find myself seeing combinations i've been taught rather than being told what to punch.

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Originally Posted by Salty

We do a lot more partner work instead, we'll get directions say a combination for the attacker, while the defender might have to parry the first few and then counter punch. It slowly builds up so after about half an hour it becomes light sparring and then we will do the proper sparring. Which i find works well for me as I hate the pads, due to the fact that I tend to overthink things. Where as in sparring I find myself seeing combinations i've been taught rather than being told what to punch.

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Yeah I do a good bit of that.
Seems to be popular in the states.

I need more ideas I think.

Surely the idea is for the body to adapt to the process of correct action of thought so long as the process is correct its the incorrect thought that causes trouble as regards correct, level ,, distance, and angles. Sparring is a great way to learn it doesnt need to be Heavy. Doing drills with a partner is a very good way and can be a good learning drill, a pair of senseable lads eventually working at speed is terrific to watch, we do a lot of it reccommended. There is a form of stretch with Plyometric adaptions which I have found to be excellent for bonding Neurons at the same time interesting stuff.

great read scrap !

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Originally Posted by Scrap

Surely the idea is for the body to adapt to the process of correct action of thought so long as the process is correct its the incorrect thought that causes trouble as regards correct, level ,, distance, and angles. Sparring is a great way to learn it doesnt need to be Heavy. Doing drills with a partner is a very good way and can be a good learning drill, a pair of senseable lads eventually working at speed is terrific to watch, we do a lot of it reccommended. There is a form of stretch with Plyometric adaptions which I have found to be excellent for bonding Neurons at the same time interesting stuff.

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Have improved greatly since I've began doing drills with a partner.

I'll have a gander at the gym tyonight, see what the expierienced guys do.

Good posts salty and scrap.

Pads and bags are tools and can be misused. I was determind to hook off the jab, spent the time rehersing it on the bag before I was able to land it well.

TBH I've found lots of good stuff in the american boxing manuals that I've not seen so much in UK gyms, more structure....maybe they did it when I wasn't round.:cool:

For example on the heavy bag, there's lots more you can do. It's all valid but left to our own devices we tend to get lazy, stick with what we know and work on our strengths.
3 different drills all working different modes all useful for boxing.
1 round just using the jab moving in and out or range, focus on speed and footwork.
1 round plant your feet, 3 punch combo focus on power.
1 round continuous punching

The same with sparring, most of the time I've seen two people just get thrown in the ring and they're left to get on with it:confused: might make you tough but not necessarily the most technical of fighters. How about 1 round just throwing the jab, 1 person attacks with 3 punch combos (light) the other defends. Set drills practicing jab-cross-slip(parry, sway, stepback) It goes on and on.

I'm not saying there shouldn't be hard sparring but not everytime you step in the gym. It should be progressive and have an aim to it.

I'll get off my soapbox now;D

I love playing games even in Sparing. One that works qiute well is to only allow the fighters a certain amount of shots sometimes as little as 6 a round. When it happens the first time they run out of punches after 20 secs and have to defend the rest of the round. After a few times they start thinking about it and start thinking what they are doing, the improvement is remarkable ;D

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Originally Posted by Scrap

I love playing games even in Sparing. One that works qiute well is to only allow the fighters a certain amount of shots sometimes as little as 6 a round. When it happens the first time they run out of punches after 20 secs and have to defend the rest of the round. After a few times they start thinking about it and start thinking what they are doing, the improvement is remarkable ;D

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Frequently enough I do "jab only sparring" The opponent becomes aware I'm just jabbing and tries to exploit that. It's my job to stop him.

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Originally Posted by hitmandonny

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Originally Posted by Scrap

I love playing games even in Sparing. One that works qiute well is to only allow the fighters a certain amount of shots sometimes as little as 6 a round. When it happens the first time they run out of punches after 20 secs and have to defend the rest of the round. After a few times they start thinking about it and start thinking what they are doing, the improvement is remarkable ;D

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Frequently enough I do "jab only sparring" The opponent becomes aware I'm just jabbing and tries to exploit that. It's my job to stop him.

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We do jab only in our gym quite often. Sometimes we do 1-2 only. It's good exercise. It helps you focus and automate your response straight punches.

I am learning to box and at the same time trying to help a friend of mine stay sharp and train for an upcoming fight. He has been training me to train him on the pads and it has been great. There are days when we work only 3 or 4 combinations for 12-15 rounds and he has sharpened up a lot. I throw shots at him during our workouts, full shots, and that seems to help him offensively and defensively. It makes the pad work a little more interactive. Everyone has someone to emulate, and I believe in my man Freddie Roach. If he uses pads (having trained 21 belt holders), then I think I am going to. I am not being argumentative, just trying to stimulate conversation. I need all the help I can get being new, and appreciate all the input and experience you have.

Its interesting how often the Pads get used when the camaras arnt there ;D

I like jab only sparring as an alternative. Jab to the head, body, shoulders, gloves with head movement, parrying/blocking, and footwork as defense.

I also like in-fighting only. 50% but the whole round you must be touching. Shoulder to shoulder. Alternate being against the ropes and trapped in a corner.

God, Ive even tide them together with Elastic Rope ;D

Hey Scrap, I remember you telling me before that russian coaches in the 30's were turning their gloves backwards for their pupils to hit long before the advent of punch pads. It caught on, as I found a picture of Sammy Goldstein doing the same thing: ;)

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/3831/samgoldstein.jpg
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/9300/92545478.jpg
http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/6205/29186916.jpg

;D

Chris I heard the 1st time Pads were seen in Britain, they were being used by the Hungarian Coaches. They were the round flat ones. Id love to know where they originate from ;D

http://web.archive.org/web/200612130...mg/charley.jpg
I don't know of anyone using them before Charlie Goldman. Hitting someone's hands has probably been around since the beginning of fist fighting. I can imagine that some boxing trainer had someone puncher hit his hands and thought, "This fooking hurts!" :o Thus out of necessity, the punch pads were born. ;D

I enjoy using the pads. In my very inexperienced opinion they seem to build up the muscle memory for combinations so I don't have to think about hitting, instinct just throws a 2-3 shot combo. That being said, it definitely is very different than sparring.

Padwork is often about routine, especially with people who're weaker on the pads. Also too many average coaches seem to just stand still & use it as a straight punching system, ie 1,2, 1,2, 4, 6 etc. Good quality padwork, where punches are thrown back that you have to slip & weave under at random is worthwhile, however with so many people becoming coaches, often with little experience, padwork can be very weak. Last week I had a guy about my age, who didn't move me around the ring at all, slapped my punches down (as in started so he would slapping down onto my wrists as I punched not slapping into the punches) & then bitched when I pointed out what he was doing wrong. I think the problem is there's too many guys coming in who want to be Roger Mayweather immediately rather than taking the time (often years) to actually learn how to do these things properly, & you end up with padwork being about knowing how to punch in a routine rather than with any invention or reflex

personally i use pads to work with newbs confidence and balance...partner work is best all round but in the states you usually get two guys beating holy hell out of each other and in 30 days you get to sit and watch cause all your fighters quit.hard sparring has a place every day? no.pads are a TOOL. regard it as such, it surely isn't boxing but the holder has to take charge, and make it live.i hit and hit back often..i also hit hard. depending on what i am using, thai style kick pads or reg boxing one sit will hurt. plus with my thai boxers i kick them. hard. it helps when they miss the first punch and get hit...they re-set quick and keep going...just mho