Father and Son - 20years of lost potential?

Havn't really said anything about the Hopkins Calzaghe fight just been checking over what people think.

I would say though if this fight had happened years ago Joe may have lost...but he would have been a 100 times better now.B-Hop exposed those weaknesses that everyone knew he had...He could have done with that alot earlier in his career...But,To the victor go the spoils:).

Anyway my thread is regarding Enzo Calzaghe i came to his defence in a post the other day but I cant help but think if Joe had trained with someone who knew boxing he may have been so much better than he is now.

Is this opinion shared by anyone else on the board?

His succes has come from his unique style he's developed with Enzo, however it could definitely be improved upon, Hopkins exposed weaknesses in his general strategy.

Another benefit of another knowledgable trainer taking an eye at him is to set up strategy for specific opponents. Team Calzaghe claim they don't watch bugger all of the oppoennts beforehand, and after Saturday I believe them. I was watching with disbelief within 30 seconds of the first round when Hopkins was moving away and Joe couldn't reach him, he looked a little baffled then just walked forward straight into a right hand!!! I mean, what the HELL did they expect????
A little homework would have made it a much more comfortable nights work, even though Hopkins would have still made it awkward. It took Calzaghe 4 rounds to figure stuff out about Hopkins's strategy, stuff that EVERYONE else knew already. In the end it was Hopkins' date of birth that caught up with him.

I think on Saturday night Enzo showed his lack of true world class experiance he didn't offer Calzaghe a plan B at any time he was shouting and screaming trust me trust me but he was never 100% confident in his own advise.

Old Enzo seems to have totally lost the plot since the trainer accolades have rolled in. I thought he was quite embarrassing on the night, Dean Powell tells him to keep calm at one point as he's shouting like a nutter... also, as Bomp alluded to, Team Hopkins said in the build-up they'd catch Joe coming in when he squares up (the knockdown was virtually identical to the Salem one) so it's surprising someone of his class walked straight into it.

I do believe though it's unfair to say he would have been BETTER if things were done different.

Calzaghe's career and record is magnificent.

I agree with the above, that Calzaghe's success has been due to the unique style he has developed with his father.

When we see a mediocre or unknown trainer do great things with a fighter, its just natural to think "well, Imagine how great they would be with a respected, world class trainer." I think Jermain Taylor's short stint with Manny Steward tells us thats not always the way it works.

Joe is talented and would have succeeded with who ever he was with. He could and should have come to the US much earlier and is only now fulfilling his potential. He is on par if not better than Lennox and Naz, yet they earned and achieved more than Joe.

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Originally Posted by Master

Joe is talented and would have succeeded with who ever he was with. He could and should have come to the US much earlier and is only now fulfilling his potential. He is on par if not better than Lennox and Naz, yet they earned and achieved more than Joe.

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Lennox very debatable...but Naz? wtf are some people smoking

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Originally Posted by GodofBoxing

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Originally Posted by Master

Joe is talented and would have succeeded with who ever he was with. He could and should have come to the US much earlier and is only now fulfilling his potential. He is on par if not better than Lennox and Naz, yet they earned and achieved more than Joe.

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Lennox very debatable...but Naz? wtf are some people smoking

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Naz made an estimated £50m from boxing he made 15 defences in 6 years against former champs present champs and fighters who were good and went on to be champs.He was number 1 featherweight from 1997-2001 and reached Ring magazine P4P#4 or 5.

well if it aint broke dont fix it.... lets not forget who Joe was in the ring with last weekend Hopkins is a legend ;)

as Naz has been brought up i think is is an ideal example of a boxer and Trainer who had a good and successful relationship in him and Ingle... then Naz left him went to top trainer Manny Steward who tatally fucked up his style.

So like i said if it aint broke dont fix it :cool:

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Originally Posted by tysonbruno

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Originally Posted by GodofBoxing

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Originally Posted by Master

Joe is talented and would have succeeded with who ever he was with. He could and should have come to the US much earlier and is only now fulfilling his potential. He is on par if not better than Lennox and Naz, yet they earned and achieved more than Joe.

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Lennox very debatable...but Naz? wtf are some people smoking

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Naz made an estimated £50m from boxing he made 15 defences in 6 years against former champs present champs and fighters who were good and went on to be champs.He was number 1 featherweight from 1997-2001 and reached Ring magazine P4P#4 or 5.

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er....jc has made 20+ defences, undisputed super middle weight chapion for 10 years, new lightweight champion, definitely top 3 p4p fighter...and basically never lost...

you compare that record with naz then you must be losing your marbles...

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Originally Posted by Saddo

well if it aint broke dont fix it.... lets not forget who Joe was in the ring with last weekend Hopkins is a legend ;)

as Naz has been brought up i think is is an ideal example of a boxer and Trainer who had a good and successful relationship in him and Ingle... then Naz left him went to top trainer Manny Steward who tatally fucked up his style.

So like i said if it aint broke dont fix it :cool:

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Agreed. But I do think it's possible to have input from a more experienced trainer, as long as the chemistry's right and he stays in the background. Taylor did say that they still use some of manny's methods, perhaps if Manny took a secondary role without being overbearing and not actually in the corner during the fights he could have made an improvement on what already works.

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Originally Posted by Bomp

His succes has come from his unique style he's developed with Enzo, however it could definitely be improved upon, Hopkins exposed weaknesses in his general strategy.

Another benefit of another knowledgable trainer taking an eye at him is to set up strategy for specific opponents. Team Calzaghe claim they don't watch bugger all of the oppoennts beforehand, and after Saturday I believe them. I was watching with disbelief within 30 seconds of the first round when Hopkins was moving away and Joe couldn't reach him, he looked a little baffled then just walked forward straight into a right hand!!! I mean, what the HELL did they expect????
A little homework would have made it a much more comfortable nights work, even though Hopkins would have still made it awkward. It took Calzaghe 4 rounds to figure stuff out about Hopkins's strategy, stuff that EVERYONE else knew already. In the end it was Hopkins' date of birth that caught up with him.

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I don't believe that they only watched one Hopkins fight. Joe had clearly watched the fight Hopkins had in Ecuador due to comments he made before the fight. I'm sure they've both sat down and watched endless Hopkins fights together before. They were first planning on fighting him six years ago and I bet they'd seen all his fights before then.

Hopkins can make anybody look awkward, especially a guy fighting in Vegas for the first time at a new weight with a huge reputation to protect, and especially when he knocks him down in the first minute. Calzaghe had to change his strategy after that knockdown because he couldn't afford another one against a boxing grandmaster away from home and still managed to do it. Look what Hopkins did to Winky and Tarver, but Joe managed to beat him despite the knockdown and with all the pressure. He's as good as ever apart from his hands.

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Originally Posted by Tins06

Havn't really said anything about the Hopkins Calzaghe fight just been checking over what people think.

I would say though if this fight had happened years ago Joe may have lost...but he would have been a 100 times better now.B-Hop exposed those weaknesses that everyone knew he had...He could have done with that alot earlier in his career...But,To the victor go the spoils:).

Anyway my thread is regarding Enzo Calzaghe i came to his defence in a post the other day but I cant help but think if Joe had trained with someone who knew boxing he may have been so much better than he is now.

Is this opinion shared by anyone else on the board?

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Joe and Enzo may have the best Father/Son or maybe I should say the most successful Father/Son duo I have seen but I do agree that if there was some outside influences in the camp over the years to adjust a little here and a little there Joe would be twice or 3 times the fighter he is now....

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Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing

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Originally Posted by Bomp

His succes has come from his unique style he's developed with Enzo, however it could definitely be improved upon, Hopkins exposed weaknesses in his general strategy.

Another benefit of another knowledgable trainer taking an eye at him is to set up strategy for specific opponents. Team Calzaghe claim they don't watch bugger all of the oppoennts beforehand, and after Saturday I believe them. I was watching with disbelief within 30 seconds of the first round when Hopkins was moving away and Joe couldn't reach him, he looked a little baffled then just walked forward straight into a right hand!!! I mean, what the HELL did they expect????
A little homework would have made it a much more comfortable nights work, even though Hopkins would have still made it awkward. It took Calzaghe 4 rounds to figure stuff out about Hopkins's strategy, stuff that EVERYONE else knew already. In the end it was Hopkins' date of birth that caught up with him.

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I don't believe that they only watched one Hopkins fight. Joe had clearly watched the fight Hopkins had in Ecuador due to comments he made before the fight. I'm sure they've both sat down and watched endless Hopkins fights together before. They were first planning on fighting him six years ago and I bet they'd seen all his fights before then.

Hopkins can make anybody look awkward, especially a guy fighting in Vegas for the first time at a new weight with a huge reputation to protect, and especially when he knocks him down in the first minute. Calzaghe had to change his strategy after that knockdown because he couldn't afford another one against a boxing grandmaster away from home and still managed to do it. Look what Hopkins did to Winky and Tarver, but Joe managed to beat him despite the knockdown and with all the pressure. He's as good as ever apart from his hands.

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I'm sure he's seen many Hopkins fights, but I doubt he sat down with Enzo for any decent period of time during the build up to actually devise a strategy, and it certainly showed.

I've always been a supporter of Enzo Calzaghe.
He's a man with a great work ethic, dedication to his fighters and the ability to formulate great plans.

However, last Saturday Enzo panicked. In the corner he resorted to shouting and gesticulating. Neither of which benefited Joe's cause.
I think that Enzo was a good trainer, ideal when things were going well, but when the pressure was on he panicked and it was Joe and Joe alone that saved the day.

I also feel he panicked in the corner with Maccarenelli.

He's reputed to be a fiery little guy, fiery is not ideal in boxing.

Could someone please explain to me how someone who already has an absolutely 100% perfect record could have done any better? :confused:

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

Could someone please explain to me how someone who already has an absolutely 100% perfect record could have done any better? :confused:

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Calzaghe has done very well.
It's rediculous to suggest that more is wanted from him.
(Although just you wait, someone will jump in saying he should have fought x y z.)

I'm just suggesting that Joe is good because of Joe.

apparetley they don't watch other oppoenents fights - as joe says he fights the way he fights and he isn't going to toil over hours of videos and change his style for each differen fight.

Nice one for reply's guys..I'll get round to reppin everyone shortly..after reading a few comments spose it boils down to he's undeafeted in 45..Not much room for improvment lol.

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

Could someone please explain to me how someone who already has an absolutely 100% perfect record could have done any better? :confused:

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The masses are never happy Bilbo you know that

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Originally Posted by tysonbruno

I think on Saturday night Enzo showed his lack of true world class experiance he didn't offer Calzaghe a plan B at any time he was shouting and screaming trust me trust me but he was never 100% confident in his own advise.

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That really isnt going to help Lockett.

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Originally Posted by southakron314

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Originally Posted by tysonbruno

I think on Saturday night Enzo showed his lack of true world class experiance he didn't offer Calzaghe a plan B at any time he was shouting and screaming trust me trust me but he was never 100% confident in his own advise.

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That really isnt going to help Lockett.

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Locket is gonna need divine intervention lol he could have angelo Dundee in his corner and it dont think it would make a difference.

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Originally Posted by southakron314

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Originally Posted by tysonbruno

I think on Saturday night Enzo showed his lack of true world class experiance he didn't offer Calzaghe a plan B at any time he was shouting and screaming trust me trust me but he was never 100% confident in his own advise.

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That really isnt going to help Lockett.

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A baseball bat wouldn't help Lockett against Pavlik.

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

Could someone please explain to me how someone who already has an absolutely 100% perfect record could have done any better? :confused:

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I see nothing wrong with what he did. He made a shitload of money in the UK defending the WBO belt. As a fan of the sport, I wish he would have fought over here a couple years sooner. If he would have fought Lacy here, he would have got a ton more press and exposure and truly exercised his skill to the American media. The potential matchups after that fight would have been mouth watering

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Originally Posted by Deanrw

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

Could someone please explain to me how someone who already has an absolutely 100% perfect record could have done any better? :confused:

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I see nothing wrong with what he did. He made a shitload of money in the UK defending the WBO belt. As a fan of the sport, I wish he would have fought over here a couple years sooner. If he would have fought Lacy here, he would have got a ton more press and exposure and truly exercised his skill to the American media. The potential matchups after that fight would have been mouth watering

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I agree his career could have been handled better with him pursuing the big fights sooner but that's the promotional side of boxing and has nothing to whatsoever to do with his trainers ability to prepare Joe for a fight.

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Originally Posted by fugaziuk

apparetley they don't watch other oppoenents fights - as joe says he fights the way he fights and he isn't going to toil over hours of videos and change his style for each differen fight.

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I don't see any problem with this to be honest. Whatever works for him is fine by me. Some fighters like to analyse countless hours of tapes of their opponents others arn't concerned.

The correct choice depends entirely on the mindest of the fighter in question. Joe clearly isn't concerned with studying everything his opponent does. It's an equally valid opinion, after all what if you prepare meticulously for an opponent based on a careful study of his previous fights and he comes in and fights with a totally different gameplan against you?

And at the end of the day let's remember that Bhop studied everything about Joe yet he still lost to him so watching tapes of your opponent clearly isn't the deciding factor in a fight. ;)

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by fugaziuk

apparetley they don't watch other oppoenents fights - as joe says he fights the way he fights and he isn't going to toil over hours of videos and change his style for each differen fight.

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I don't see any problem with this to be honest. Whatever works for him is fine by me. Some fighters like to analyse countless hours of tapes of their opponents others arn't concerned.

The correct choice depends entirely on the mindest of the fighter in question. Joe clearly isn't concerned with studying everything his opponent does. It's an equally valid opinion, after all what if you prepare meticulously for an opponent based on a careful study of his previous fights and he comes in and fights with a totally different gameplan against you?

And at the end of the day let's remember that Bhop studied everything about Joe yet he still lost to him so watching tapes of your opponent clearly isn't the deciding factor in a fight. ;)

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Well said about not studying tapes and why...Many top level fighters just leave that to their trainers and management just for that reason...I know a ton of fighters that rather just go in the ring and adjust as the fight progresses....So they don't go in and have a gameplan for just one style...then end up finding a whole different style to adjust to...Also it is possible they actually detract from their own selves by not working and keeping their own style sharp during training camp because they spent all their time trying to fight accodringly and missing thier own strong points

It show also the quality of a fighter if they can go in and just adjust to what is in front of them

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

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Originally Posted by Deanrw

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

Could someone please explain to me how someone who already has an absolutely 100% perfect record could have done any better? :confused:

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I see nothing wrong with what he did. He made a shitload of money in the UK defending the WBO belt. As a fan of the sport, I wish he would have fought over here a couple years sooner. If he would have fought Lacy here, he would have got a ton more press and exposure and truly exercised his skill to the American media. The potential matchups after that fight would have been mouth watering

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I agree his career could have been handled better with him pursuing the big fights sooner but that's the promotional side of boxing and has nothing to whatsoever to do with his trainers ability to prepare Joe for a fight.

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Sorry I got sidetracked with my own thinking there. I don't see how jumping trainers can help a fighter when all they have experienced is success. Stick with what you are familiar with. I see Pavlik doing the same thing. Besides, many of the "expert" trainers are just media creations and you are better off with a trainer who knows not only your capabilities, but also your weaknesses, as well as your mindset. Selecting a new trainer is like going into a fight cold. If you are on a losing streak, well then sure, go for it.

With my first post i was thinking Enzo and Joe should have pushed Warren to fight over here sooner.

I thought Enzo really dropped the ball in the corner this last fight. He mentioned nothing like "Hopkins is trying to catch you coming in with a short right" or "he is trying to always tie you up inside, take a step back and let your hands go".

He basically said "punch more" That isn't useful at all, and may be acceptable for lower levels of the game, but definately not on the world stage.

Speaking of trainers though Roach hasn't done too well recently has he?
Aside from PAC of course.

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I'm sure he's seen many Hopkins fights, but I doubt he sat down with Enzo for any decent period of time during the build up to actually devise a strategy, and it certainly showed.[/quote]

In the latest issue of 'Sport' Calzaghe actually said that he never watches his opponents fights for more than a round or 2 to get a basic feel for their style. Then he says he just makes adjustments on the night.

The corner of Joe was a little bit dramatic. :lickish: