Calzaghe or Jones Jr. Greatest SMW of all time

So which one is greater at 168 and why?

Arguments for each

Calzaghe
Undefeated
Ring #1 at 168
Ring #3 p4p
Held IBF, WBO, WBA and WBC titles

Big wins at 168
Jeff Lacy (UD)
Mikkel Kessler (UD)

Record at 168: 35-0-0 (23 KOs) (Win %: 100%/ KO %:65.7%)

Opponents combined record: 783-176-23 (Win %: 79.7%)


Jones Jr.
Undefeated at 168
Ring #1 at 168
Ring #1 p4p
Held IBF title
Round 6 against Paz was probably the most dominant round in boxing history (3 knockdowns and Jones was not hit once)

Big Wins at 168
Vinny Pazienza (TKO 6)
James Toney (UD)

Record at 168: 13-0-0 (11 KOs) (Win %:100% / KO %: 84.6%)

Opponents combined record: 321-51-8 (Win %: 84.4%)


Others Mentioned
Sven Ottke

I will edit this as the debate unfolds

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Originally Posted by killersheep

So which one is greater at 168 and why?

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Calzaghe because he completely owned the weight class, Jones only fought there half a dozen times if I remember correctly

if you talk about calzaghe you have to talk about german legend sven ottka who made 21 world title defence at super middle and was undefeated just like joe, he's practicly the same as calzaghe except he held the much more recordnizied wba and ibf belts........he wanted a fight with joe to see who is the best but calzaghe turned it down, so in my opin you have to put him on the table.......... im not saying ottka is the best, but if joe is ranked that high then you must have ottka there to

I have to go with RJJr. Cuz that was his era. He was the #1 Ring p4p.

...Yeah, he made it to the top.

The fact that Ottke name is even compared to Joe Galzaghe shows that he does not even compare to Roy Jones. Sure Joe holds an impressive record but Jones could have done all that if he wanted too, no Roy did far better and at his best he would beat Joe any day of the week.

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Originally Posted by Master

The fact that Ottke name is even compared to Joe Galzaghe shows that he does not even compare to Roy Jones. Sure Joe holds an impressive record but Jones could have done all that if he wanted too, no Roy did far better and at his best he would beat Joe any day of the week.

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i'll second that.............prime jones v prime calzaghe.........roy wins everytime. 43 year old hopkins show joes no great

I voted Jones because even though Calzaghe obviously has spent more time at SMW and accumulated more belts, I feel that if they met at SMW when both were in their primes RJJ would win. I also feel that James Toney is a better fighter than anyone JC has fought, by defeating him RJJ has the best victory at the weight. Additionally, RJJ was considered to be the best P4P for many years, something JC has never achieved - while that is not Calzaghe's fault necessarily, if feel it is another factor in RJJ's favor.

Answering the question is simple as long as you clear up one issue...

What's more important, the length of the reign, or who was more dominant at the weight?

If it's all about the former, then the answer has to be Calzaghe. If it's the latter, then the answer has to be Jones, because the prime Jones would smoke the prime Calzaghe and Jones' win over Toney is more impressive than any win Calzaghe had at 168.

Roy moved up because despite people saying they "Wanted" to fight him none of the brittish guys with big names at the time were willing to come over and fight him... it was a nice excuse on their part to avoid fighting Roy. Roy in his prime would destroy Calzaghe.

Calzaghe is the greatest SMW of all time due to the fact of the length of his reign and he has reigned so long without question on who the man in the division is...

Jones was not at SMW for too much of a time to be considered even IMO...there are others in the past that could be considered on the list against Calzaghe in terms of SMW legecy...Just my opp though

Now With that being said!!!

I have stated this before and will continue to say this until someone comes along and proves otherwise...

Roy Jones Jr is without a doubt the greatest skilled fighter with natural ability I have ever seen when he was at 168....Now I did not say the most tech sound fighter so don't people start saying he had flaws he left hands down etc we all know that....but in terms of natural ability and ability to adjust and do what he wanted when he wanted in the ring without ever the fear of being on the losing end or caught and KO'd by a punch...Roy Jones had that....The speed to move and avoid shots, the ability to be unorthadox and fight with hands at waist against big punchers...the power he posessed etc at SMW was beyond praise in the fighting world.....

It was just a short amount of time he was there though to be considered as an ATG of the division

Joe calzaghe fought and dominated that division. he is the number 1 fighter at supermiddleweight. Jones didn't stay there long enough to be rated so high for me.

Calzaghe!

Hey killer can you edit your 1st post, Calzaghe is Ring champ! He was #1 when he fought Lacy. With the victory he became champion. (But I know what you meant)

On an all time P4P list Jones would be well ahead of Calzaghe, but as a Super-middleweight Calzaghe achieved a lot more. He pretty much cleaned out the division (all that was missing was a bout with Ottke). Unified the championship.

Jones' win over Toney was exceptional but it doesn't qualify him as the greatest SM, one win doesn't out weight a whole body of work. Just because Douglas beat Tyson doesn't qualify him for the greatest top 10 heavies.

I don't know but I think 11 fights in a division is long enough to be considered.
That would equal out to be like 3 or more years at SMW that isn't that short of a time.

On skill, ability, and who would win a SMW fight between the two? Roy Jones hands down, he has the edge on Calzaghe in pretty much every catagory.

But on accomplishment, you gotta give it to Calzaghe. He has done a lot more at SMW, and Jones never stayed at SMW very long.

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Originally Posted by Doot

I don't know but I think 11 fights in a division is long enough to be considered.
That would equal out to be like 3 or more years at SMW that isn't that short of a time.

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Yeah but its what he done in that time at that weight & Calzaghe's achievements well outweigh Jones' at 168

Hey killer

Calzaghes record at 168 should be:35-0 (23)

Jones' record at 168 should be:13-0 (11)

If anyones interested their opponents combined W/L/D at 168

Calzaghe:783-176-23

Jones:321-51-8

When Jones fought at 168, he was not only the most dominating fighter of his era, but who I consider one of the top fighters of all time regardless of weight class. He was that good.

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Originally Posted by SweetPea

Answering the question is simple as long as you clear up one issue...

What's more important, the length of the reign, or who was more dominant at the weight?

If it's all about the former, then the answer has to be Calzaghe. If it's the latter, then the answer has to be Jones, because the prime Jones would smoke the prime Calzaghe and Jones' win over Toney is more impressive than any win Calzaghe had at 168.

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Look at you usin words like "former" and "latter", fancy bastard! lol. If its a matter of who would win in their primes, its Roy Jones EASY.

Calzaghe did spend more time there and make it his weightclass for a LONG time though.

Just like how Hopkins made Middleweight his. No one tries to argue that Jones is the greatest MW, so why say he was the greatest SMW?

He was just the GREATEST FIGHTER OF ALL TIME IN ANY WEIGHT CLASS EVER.
Thats enough for me.

I think its pretty easy really. Joe Calzaghe has the greatest record at 168, but Jones is the greatest fighter to fight at 168.

Its the same in a lot of divisions. Take 154 for example. Norris and Mcallum may have the greatest records in that division but Hearns was probably a better fighter than both when he fought there.

Jones on talent

Calzaghe on achievements.

I'd have backed Jones to Beat Calzaghe, but i don't think he would smoke him like a few on here have been saying. Calzaghe is too good to get smoked by anyone. I think Calzaghe's work rate would be a potential problem for Jones. But Jones would present many more problems than just workrate.

Imo you can't give someone the number one spot based on assumptions.Sure Jones JNR was shit hot at SMW and probably would have schooled anyone. But you can't deny Calzaghe his rightful claim to the best SMW of all time just because Roy Jones at a couple of years at the weight and looked good beating people up.

10yrs undefeated.Ring champ,Unified champ..huge problems with his hands throughout his career and he came through it by adapting his style as he aged. Unlike Jones Calzaghe does not rely on his athletisicm..he had to change his style over the years...this for me makes you better than just being amazing in your "prime".

i have to bring sven ottka into this again. like joe he made 21 defences, like joe he stayed at home doing so, he even had two bigger belts, WBA, IBF so if calzaghe fans want to call there man the best, svens goto be in this cake

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Originally Posted by NUCLEAR BULL

if you talk about calzaghe you have to talk about german legend sven ottka who made 21 world title defence at super middle and was undefeated just like joe, he's practicly the same as calzaghe except he held the much more recordnizied wba and ibf belts........he wanted a fight with joe to see who is the best but calzaghe turned it down, so in my opin you have to put him on the table.......... im not saying ottka is the best, but if joe is ranked that high then you must have ottka there to

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When you make blatant lies like this do you think people will actually believe you?

:-\

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Originally Posted by Hulk

No one tries to argue that Jones is the greatest MW, so why say he was the greatest SMW?

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That's because middleweight has featured fighters like Robinson and Hagler, who are historically greater than Jones by any measure. There's no legit claim for Jones as the greatest middleweight ever.

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Originally Posted by SweetPea

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Originally Posted by Hulk

No one tries to argue that Jones is the greatest MW, so why say he was the greatest SMW?

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That's because middleweight has featured fighters like Robinson and Hagler, who are historically greater than Jones by any measure. There's no legit claim for Jones as the greatest middleweight ever.

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There's an arguement that there's no case for SRR as greatest Middleweight either.

Not nitpicking, just thinking aloud.

Calzaghe has made more defences of the SM division yes.
As for him beating Roy Jones or James Toney , dont be silly
a 43 year old Hopkins took him to a close verdict ,Lacy and Kessler are nothing compared to Jones and Toney.
Calzaghe spent his prime fighting nobodies.

He is not an all time great , sorry Calzaghe fans but history will tell you this in years to come.

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Originally Posted by DaxxKahn

Calzaghe is the greatest SMW of all time due to the fact of the length of his reign and he has reigned so long without question on who the man in the division is...

Jones was not at SMW for too much of a time to be considered even IMO...there are others in the past that could be considered on the list against Calzaghe in terms of SMW legecy...Just my opp though

Now With that being said!!!

I have stated this before and will continue to say this until someone comes along and proves otherwise...

Roy Jones Jr is without a doubt the greatest skilled fighter with natural ability I have ever seen when he was at 168....Now I did not say the most tech sound fighter so don't people start saying he had flaws he left hands down etc we all know that....but in terms of natural ability and ability to adjust and do what he wanted when he wanted in the ring without ever the fear of being on the losing end or caught and KO'd by a punch...Roy Jones had that....The speed to move and avoid shots, the ability to be unorthadox and fight with hands at waist against big punchers...the power he posessed etc at SMW was beyond praise in the fighting world.....

It was just a short amount of time he was there though to be considered as an ATG of the division

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I completly agree with what he's said,he's saved me the trouble of typing it out,RJJ at SMW was as close 2 a unbeatable Boxer there has ever been! I did vote 4 Calzaghe though as he's done more at the weight.

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Originally Posted by NUCLEAR BULL

i have to bring sven ottka into this again. like joe he made 21 defences, like joe he stayed at home doing so, he even had two bigger belts, WBA, IBF so if calzaghe fans want to call there man the best, svens goto be in this cake

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How many ppl got robbed going over 2 Germany 2 fight Ottka? Dont remember anyone getting robbed against Calzaghe!

I say Roy Jones Jr. He fought the tougher guys. He knocked a man down three times in one round and was never hit. In his prime he was by far the greatest fighter alive. Mayweather does not impress me like Jones Jr did.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nK8qHnvBo9U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Kx9y...eature=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uwr_WAZw44

Jones clearly has the quicker feet and the more one punch power.

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Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al

Calzaghe has made more defences of the SM division yes.
As for him beating Roy Jones or James Toney , dont be silly
a 43 year old Hopkins took him to a close verdict ,Lacy and Kessler are nothing compared to Jones and Toney.
Calzaghe spent his prime fighting nobodies.

He is not an all time great , sorry Calzaghe fans but history will tell you this in years to come.

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He beat guy's like Toney and Hopkins in their primes at times when they were consider along some of the all time greats in that class. He was totally dominate. He would flat out embarrass people with his speed and power. Something Calzaghe only has one of.

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Originally Posted by southakron314

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Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al

Calzaghe has made more defences of the SM division yes.
As for him beating Roy Jones or James Toney , dont be silly
a 43 year old Hopkins took him to a close verdict ,Lacy and Kessler are nothing compared to Jones and Toney.
Calzaghe spent his prime fighting nobodies.

He is not an all time great , sorry Calzaghe fans but history will tell you this in years to come.

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He beat guy's like Toney and Hopkins in their primes at times when they were consider along some of the all time greats in that class. He was totally dominate. He would flat out embarrass people with his speed and power. Something Calzaghe only has one of.

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He beat Hopkins at mw..so got nothing to do with the thread. And Calzaghe had plenty of power but he has constant hand problems wich is why he slaps now..IMO that makes his reign more impressive considering what he has acheived with that problem.

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Originally Posted by Tins06

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Originally Posted by southakron314

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Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al

Calzaghe has made more defences of the SM division yes.
As for him beating Roy Jones or James Toney , dont be silly
a 43 year old Hopkins took him to a close verdict ,Lacy and Kessler are nothing compared to Jones and Toney.
Calzaghe spent his prime fighting nobodies.

He is not an all time great , sorry Calzaghe fans but history will tell you this in years to come.

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He beat guy's like Toney and Hopkins in their primes at times when they were consider along some of the all time greats in that class. He was totally dominate. He would flat out embarrass people with his speed and power. Something Calzaghe only has one of.

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He beat Hopkins at mw..so got nothing to do with the thread. And Calzaghe had plenty of power but he has constant hand problems wich is why he slaps now..IMO that makes his reign more impressive considering what he has acheived with that problem.

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And Calzaghe "beat" Hopkins at Middle Weight so I guess that has nothing to do with it.

Who has Calzaghe fought at super middle? What!! Lacy, Manfredo, Reid......come one.

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Originally Posted by southakron314

Who has Calzaghe fought at super middle? What!! Lacy, Manfredo, Reid......come one.

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dont forget mitchell

calzaghe fans tend to mention mitchell as an impressive win cuz he dropped calzaghe, they pretend mitchell is great so it makes calzaghe almost getting KOd by him seem less embarrassing ;)



seriously, roy jones is one of the greatest of all time, calzaghe doesnt even know how to throw a punch and he lost to a 43 year old hopkins

Jones and Jc shouldnt even be mentioned in the same sentence. Jones is clearly the greater of the 2 fighters by a long margin too. JC won a close decision against a 43 yr old hopkins, imagine what a prime jones would do to him, never mind jones imagine what a prime hopkins would do to him , imoa

Wow I am really impressed with how close the judgement is on this one.

So if they fought now at 168 would it determine who is the greatest SMW of all time? Or is Jones too far past it?

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Originally Posted by southakron314

Who has Calzaghe fought at super middle? What!! Lacy, Manfredo, Reid......come one.

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Exactly. I think Joe is the most overrated fighter in recent memory. But i guess some people are impressed by his "flurries", "fast hands" or his underwhelming resume. I only wish he fought Roy at his prime...Jones would have embarrassed him. I have nothing against Joe personally...he seems like a nice guy. But aside from a past prime Eubanks (close fight) and a past prime Hopkins (close fight)...he hasn't fought a great opponent. So i don't care if you are 100-0. Ultimately a fighter is judged by his resume...and Joe's looks mighty thin. Whether that's his fault or not is beside the point. Sure, Roy fought a whole lot less at SMW...but he had the greater impact. By impact i mean we have never seen a fighter with his incredible athleticism or skills at that weight...or maybe any weight. Plus, even if Roy's biggest win was over a PRIME Toney...that is still a much bigger win than anyone Calzaghe fought at that weight.

Jones easily. I'm shocked the voting is so close. I didn't think there were that many idiots on this forum. Guess I was wrong.

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Originally Posted by zhubin

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Originally Posted by southakron314

Who has Calzaghe fought at super middle? What!! Lacy, Manfredo, Reid......come one.

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Exactly. I think Joe is the most overrated fighter in recent memory. But i guess some people are impressed by his "flurries", "fast hands" or his underwhelming resume. I only wish he fought Roy at his prime...Jones would have embarrassed him. I have nothing against Joe personally...he seems like a nice guy. But aside from a past prime Eubanks (close fight) and a past prime Hopkins (close fight)...he hasn't fought a great opponent. So i don't care if you are 100-0. Ultimately a fighter is judged by his resume...and Joe's looks mighty thin. Whether that's his fault or not is beside the point. Sure, Roy fought a whole lot less at SMW...but he had the greater impact. By impact i mean we have never seen a fighter with his incredible athleticism or skills at that weight...or maybe any weight. Plus, even if Roy's biggest win was over a PRIME Toney...that is still a much bigger win than anyone Calzaghe fought at that weight.

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Eubank planted Calzaghe on his ass. Roy Jones Jr knocking a guy down with a 40-5-1 record down three times and was never hit in a single round is more impressive than Calzaghes entire resume. Calzaghe would have ducked him back then. To me that is more impressive than a pitcher throwing a perfect game.