Was Muhammad Ali really the best

Was Muhammad Ali really the best heavyweight ever to step in the ring, he told us he was and many would mention him as the best without really seeing a lot of his fights, he lost a lot of his prime due to his battle with government about not doing his national service, and going out to fight in the war. He was involved in a number of thrilling fights but a lot could have gone the other way, during his career he was not really regarded as the best, he probably did more for the sport than any other fighter and was one of the best of his era but was he really the best ever? If some of the following fights had gone the other way do you think he still would have been regarded as the best.

The first question mark on his ability was in 1963, he went down heavily to a big hook from Henry Cooper and was saved by the bell, then miraculously his corner discovered that his glove had been cut or torn, and a replacement was fitted giving Ali the necessary time to recover, this is a very rare incident and an amazing coincidence that it happen as Ali stared his first defeat in the face.

In 1967 saw Ali out of the ring for 3 years, many think he jumped straight back in the ring with Joe Frazier in 1970 and the reason he lost was due to severe ring rust, however he actually had 2 fights in the come back before facing Frazier (Quarry 3rd TKO and Bonevena 15th TKO) so he was actually reasonably well prepared, a fight where he was still considered in his prime but he was soundly beaten by Frazier.

11 fights and wins later over decent but apart from an aging Floyd Patterson not world class opponents he took on Ken Norton and once again he was beaten, the 1st rematch went his way by split decision but many would argue that Norton won that fight as well.

Then came the re-match with Frazier which Ali won, this time it was a reasonably deserved victory. Then came the fight with Foreman, Foreman punched himself out and lost by 8th round KO, Ali came into this fight as the underdog, but pulled off possibly the biggest win of his career.

The 3rd match with Frazier was also a win but many regarded Frazier as this was his last hooray and he never won another fight after this one.

In 1976 Muhammad Ali was surrounded with controversy once again as he stole a close decision once again against Norton and once again many think Norton won that fight.

Ali went on to win his next 2 fights but many believed he was on the slide, the loss to big underdog Leon Spinks confirmed that theory, he avenged the defeat 9 months later but never looked like the same Ali due to early onset of his current illness, a fight with Larry Holmes was a big mistake as Larry was forced to take it easy on the great man and a number of times asked the referee to end the contest as to the amount of punishment he was receiving, Angelo Dundee finally did the deed and pulled Ali out, still he continued to fight on losing to Trevor Berbick on points.

Muhammad Ali will always be remembered for his skill and bravery in the ring and also what he did for the sport but would he have been remembered as the best should a few of the tight decisions gone against him as they maybe should have. How many out there regard him as the best without actually seeing a lot of his fights, having seen almost all of his fights I personally think he was one of the best but maybe not the best.

....in a word NO




Joe Louis is the Greatest of All-Time

If not the greatest, he certainly deserves a spot in the top 4 with Johnson, Louis and Dempsey.

1. Joe Louis
2. Rocky Marciano
3. Muhamed Ali

Its either Ali or Louis. I dont think anyone else would be quite deserving enough to be called the greatest. You could make a strong case for both guys though.

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Originally Posted by jmbtandy

Was Muhammad Ali really the best heavyweight ever to step in the ring, he told us he was and many would mention him as the best without really seeing a lot of his fights, he lost a lot of his prime due to his battle with government about not doing his national service, and going out to fight in the war. He was involved in a number of thrilling fights but a lot could have gone the other way, during his career he was not really regarded as the best, he probably did more for the sport than any other fighter and was one of the best of his era but was he really the best ever? If some of the following fights had gone the other way do you think he still would have been regarded as the best.

The first question mark on his ability was in 1963, he went down heavily to a big hook from Henry Cooper and was saved by the bell, then miraculously his corner discovered that his glove had been cut or torn, and a replacement was fitted giving Ali the necessary time to recover, this is a very rare incident and an amazing coincidence that it happen as Ali stared his first defeat in the face.

In 1967 saw Ali out of the ring for 3 years, many think he jumped straight back in the ring with Joe Frazier in 1970 and the reason he lost was due to severe ring rust, however he actually had 2 fights in the come back before facing Frazier (Quarry 3rd TKO and Bonevena 15th TKO) so he was actually reasonably well prepared, a fight where he was still considered in his prime but he was soundly beaten by Frazier.

11 fights and wins later over decent but apart from an aging Floyd Patterson not world class opponents he took on Ken Norton and once again he was beaten, the 1st rematch went his way by split decision but many would argue that Norton won that fight as well.

Then came the re-match with Frazier which Ali won, this time it was a reasonably deserved victory. Then came the fight with Foreman, Foreman punched himself out and lost by 8th round KO, Ali came into this fight as the underdog, but pulled off possibly the biggest win of his career.

The 3rd match with Frazier was also a win but many regarded Frazier as this was his last hooray and he never won another fight after this one.

In 1976 Muhammad Ali was surrounded with controversy once again as he stole a close decision once again against Norton and once again many think Norton won that fight.

Ali went on to win his next 2 fights but many believed he was on the slide, the loss to big underdog Leon Spinks confirmed that theory, he avenged the defeat 9 months later but never looked like the same Ali due to early onset of his current illness, a fight with Larry Holmes was a big mistake as Larry was forced to take it easy on the great man and a number of times asked the referee to end the contest as to the amount of punishment he was receiving, Angelo Dundee finally did the deed and pulled Ali out, still he continued to fight on losing to Trevor Berbick on points.

Muhammad Ali will always be remembered for his skill and bravery in the ring and also what he did for the sport but would he have been remembered as the best should a few of the tight decisions gone against him as they maybe should have. How many out there regard him as the best without actually seeing a lot of his fights, having seen almost all of his fights I personally think he was one of the best but maybe not the best.

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can you imagine how boxing history would have changed if Doug Jones got the win in there fight...or LaStarza beat Marciano in their first enounter...now that would be some sh@t right there.

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Originally Posted by Lyle

1. Joe Louis
2. Rocky Marciano
3. Muhamed Ali

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I'm sorry that's ridiculous to rank Marciano over Ali. He had I think 7 title defenses and none of them were anything stellar. That's absurd Lyle and I love Rocky Marciano. Ali more or less dominated the best era in heavyweight history I would have him as my top heavyweight but have no problems with Louis being regarded as the greatest.

He himself said so, didn't he? and I ain't in any mood to argue with him.

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Originally Posted by amat

I'm sorry that's ridiculous to rank Marciano over Ali. He had I think 7 title defenses and none of them were anything stellar. That's absurd Lyle and I love Rocky Marciano. Ali more or less dominated the best era in heavyweight history I would have him as my top heavyweight but have no problems with Louis being regarded as the greatest.

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....Rocky NEVER LOST....hence #2. It's not like Rocky was the overwhelming favorite to beat ANYONE he fought and yet some how he still won all 49 of his fights. Might not be great to you but it's great to me

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Originally Posted by Lyle

1. Joe Louis
2. Rocky Marciano
3. Muhamed Ali

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Ali would have schooled and humiliated both Marciano & Louis.

...and Ali could have flown a rocketship to the moon too...doesn't have anything to do with what we're talking about.


And no Ali wouldn't have had an easy time with either of those fighters even in HYPOTHETICAL fights. Joe Louis 25 title defenses, Rocky Marciano 49-0-0....what concrete evidence do you present on Ali's behalf???

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Originally Posted by Lyle

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Originally Posted by amat

I'm sorry that's ridiculous to rank Marciano over Ali. He had I think 7 title defenses and none of them were anything stellar. That's absurd Lyle and I love Rocky Marciano. Ali more or less dominated the best era in heavyweight history I would have him as my top heavyweight but have no problems with Louis being regarded as the greatest.

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....Rocky NEVER LOST....hence #2. It's not like Rocky was the overwhelming favorite to beat ANYONE he fought and yet some how he still won all 49 of his fights. Might not be great to you but it's great to me

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Neither did Sven Ottke

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Originally Posted by Lyle

...and Ali could have flown a rocketship to the moon too...doesn't have anything to do with what we're talking about.


And no Ali wouldn't have had an easy time with either of those fighters even in HYPOTHETICAL fights. Joe Louis 25 title defenses, Rocky Marciano 49-0-0....what concrete evidence do you present on Ali's behalf???

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Marciano's 49-0 has absolutely nothing on Ali's 50-5. Ali had as many great fighters on his resume that anybody ever has. You may think he is overrated and that his legend is exaggerated but you can't be serious with Marciano.

Ali's record is mindblowing because of how many good fighters he beat. It's a long list so I won't bother we all know it.

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Originally Posted by rene69

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Originally Posted by Lyle

1. Joe Louis
2. Rocky Marciano
3. Muhamed Ali

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Ali would have schooled and humiliated both Marciano & Louis.

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It was a different era, Valuev would probably have beaten Marciano with his 1'3" height advantage and 123lb weight advantage, does that mean he should be remembered as a great, I think not. Ali is up there with the greats, I just think he convinced more people he was the best, rather than actually being the best

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Originally Posted by amat

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Originally Posted by Lyle

...and Ali could have flown a rocketship to the moon too...doesn't have anything to do with what we're talking about.


And no Ali wouldn't have had an easy time with either of those fighters even in HYPOTHETICAL fights. Joe Louis 25 title defenses, Rocky Marciano 49-0-0....what concrete evidence do you present on Ali's behalf???

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Marciano's 49-0 has absolutely nothing on Ali's 50-5. Ali had as many great fighters on his resume that anybody ever has. You may think he is overrated and that his legend is exaggerated but you can't be serious with Marciano.

Ali's record is mindblowing because of how many good fighters he beat. It's a long list so I won't bother we all know it.

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Nobody is doubting his record, but he was fortunate a few times and lost in his prime

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Originally Posted by jmbtandy

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Originally Posted by rene69

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Originally Posted by Lyle

1. Joe Louis
2. Rocky Marciano
3. Muhamed Ali

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Ali would have schooled and humiliated both Marciano & Louis.

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It was a different era, Valuev would probably have beaten Marciano with his 1'3" height advantage and 123lb weight advantage, does that mean he should be remembered as a great, I think not. Ali is up there with the greats, I just think he convinced more people he was the best, rather than actually being the best

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He did a lot of talking but he did it in the ring too.

This list does all the talking that is needed to convinced, Sonny Liston, Floyd Patterson, Ernie Terrell, Joe Frazier, Jerry Quarry, Ken Norton, George Foreman, Ernie Shavers, Ron Lyle and there's more to that. Oh and he got stripped of 3 years of his prime and still racked up more quality wins then any heavyweight ever. It's truly extraordinary.

I think you have a better case of calling Larry Holmes as greater then Ali, Holmes got to 48-0 and then was robbed of 49-0.

I think Ali is the greatest, not just because of his in ring performances but as a man himself, havnt seen charm and inteligence in boxers before and past him. He beat fighters with twice his punching power with just sheer inteligence and knowledge of the game. He also made the biggest impact in boxing history with some legendary fights and he totally changed the playing field with his movement and boxing skills whilst other boxers around that time were one dimensional sluggers.

All i know is when im old and gray when my kids and grandkids asks me about boxing, the Ali tapes are going in.

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Originally Posted by Violent Demise

Neither did Sven Ottke

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Well yes but Svenn also didn't fight the quality guys Rocky fought: Louis, Walcott, Charles, Layne, and LaStarza and Rocky wasn't a favorite much of the time.


Everyone gets on me because I seemingly diss him by ranking him 3rd I'm not going to post on here and get berated because I don't go along with whatever is TAUGHT to say...I'm not saying Ali isn't great but I get treated like I am because I put him 3rd...get a fucking grip people.

I rated him third and it's not changing so GET OVER IT

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Originally Posted by Lyle

...and Ali could have flown a rocketship to the moon too...doesn't have anything to do with what we're talking about.


And no Ali wouldn't have had an easy time with either of those fighters even in HYPOTHETICAL fights. Joe Louis 25 title defenses, Rocky Marciano 49-0-0....what concrete evidence do you present on Ali's behalf???

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I'm talking in mythical matchups 1st

1st of all...Louis & Marciano never dealt with someone like Ali ever in their careers. And forget Ezzard Charles because he wasn't even in the same league as Ali. Both Louis & MArciano were flat footed stationary fighters with the style that Ali would dance circles around and hit at will before they had time to set their flat footed feet. Louis would not outbox Ali and Marciano would not come close to ko'ing the iron jawed ali. Most people think of Ali is this safety style 1st fighter, especially the younger generation. But Ali was a warrior who liked to fight and had the heart, will and chin along with god given natural athleticism that way surpassed Those two other guys.

If you want to go by ring records and defenses then you have a gripe...i guess.
But the fact of the matter is... They didn't call most of Louis's defences "bums of the month " for nothing. And most of Marciano's opponents were "bums", and the fact that he fought them sometimes more than once to pad his record.

Ali fought the best of the best and beat them all. MAny of Ali's opponents are now Hall Of famers themselves.

....you don't want to debate me on this...I'm giving you a chance to let it go so I don't unload on you and rip your arguement to shreds

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Originally Posted by Lyle

....you don't want to debate me on this...I'm giving you a chance to let it go so I don't unload on you and rip your arguement to shreds

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LOL!! ok.

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Originally Posted by Lyle

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Originally Posted by Violent Demise

Neither did Sven Ottke

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Well yes but Svenn also didn't fight the quality guys Rocky fought: Louis, Walcott, Charles, Layne, and LaStarza and Rocky wasn't a favorite much of the time.


Everyone gets on me because I seemingly diss him by ranking him 3rd I'm not going to post on here and get berated because I don't go along with whatever is TAUGHT to say...I'm not saying Ali isn't great but I get treated like I am because I put him 3rd...get a fucking grip people.

I rated him third and it's not changing so GET OVER IT

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It just seems that you rank Marciano so highly based on 2 things. One is he's undefeated. And two (don't take this the wrong way, but I know you are) he's white. I mean Marciano is top 5. But to rank him ahead of Ali is as Tyson would say ludicrous. Ali beat the better fighters. And had a greater impact in boxing. That can't be argued. And like you I couldn't stand the man. Fukk Ali. He's a racist bittch. But he was a great fighter. Greater than Marciano.

Where does him being white have anything to do with him being #2? Rocky NEVER LOST ....IF Ali never lost I'd have him up there but he did lose and he didn't successfully defend his title as many times as Louis. Simple facts and simple reasons and those can't be argued with. If Tyson never lost he'd be up there too but he did lose and he lost to someone who wasn't great and who wasn't supposed to beat him either.

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Originally Posted by Lyle

Where does him being white have anything to do with him being #2? Rocky NEVER LOST ....IF Ali never lost I'd have him up there but he did lose and he didn't successfully defend his title as many times as Louis. Simple facts and simple reasons and those can't be argued with. If Tyson never lost he'd be up there too but he did lose and he lost to someone who wasn't great and who wasn't supposed to beat him either.

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Geezz...is that how you rate fighters?( by the least losses) That's pretty damn shallow for being a boxing fan. The truely great fighters are the ones that deal with adversity and can comeback.

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Originally Posted by Lyle

Where does him being white have anything to do with him being #2? Rocky NEVER LOST ....IF Ali never lost I'd have him up there but he did lose and he didn't successfully defend his title as many times as Louis. Simple facts and simple reasons and those can't be argued with. If Tyson never lost he'd be up there too but he did lose and he lost to someone who wasn't great and who wasn't supposed to beat him either.

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Louis lost 3 times. Why don't you rank Marciano over him?

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Originally Posted by Lyle

Where does him being white have anything to do with him being #2? Rocky NEVER LOST ....IF Ali never lost I'd have him up there but he did lose and he didn't successfully defend his title as many times as Louis. Simple facts and simple reasons and those can't be argued with. If Tyson never lost he'd be up there too but he did lose and he lost to someone who wasn't great and who wasn't supposed to beat him either.

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If you want to put it like that, then Joe Calza should be ahead of Rocky. Jc's made the most title defences in any weight division and and has never lost and has fought quality opposition. How many defences did rocky make and how many has jc made, unbeated in 11 years. So your argument is based on rubbish and no i dont think JC is anywhere near the top 10 p4p figheters ever.

To put it plainly, rocky nowhere near made as much of a impact like ali did, and like i said earlier when im old and gray and my kids and grandkids asks me about boxing, the Ali tapes are going in.

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Originally Posted by Lyle

Where does him being white have anything to do with him being #2? Rocky NEVER LOST ....IF Ali never lost I'd have him up there but he did lose and he didn't successfully defend his title as many times as Louis. Simple facts and simple reasons and those can't be argued with. If Tyson never lost he'd be up there too but he did lose and he lost to someone who wasn't great and who wasn't supposed to beat him either.

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Lyle bro,Luv you lung time but Numbers can be overrated as far as A fighters record.Sometimes a fighter really experiences how great or not so great they are AFTER a loss.As for the Hypothetical....I respect Marciano but Just Me...I think Ali would have out sped & skilled him and boxed his ears off.

Ali reigned in the greatest HW era of all time, When he started in the early 1960's the level of competition was about the same as it was during the reign of Marciano with the exception of Charles and Joe Walcott,

Ali beat Liston...A man still considered one of the mos feared fighters of all time....(Lets avoid the whole fix in the second and mob ties bullshit that usually follows shall we)...He beat Frazier....(Lets not start saying well Joe was smaller then todays guys and would have lost in the 90's)....He beat a vicious George Foreman.....

Ali beat every contender and then some there was to fight...Something I don't think anyone else can say with the exception of Louis...and Lewis...

The contenders back then were more skilled then most champions are today....

Ali reinvented himself no less then 3 times...

He went from lighting quick kid who had the reflexes of a lightweight in the early parts.....

He became a fighter that used the mental game to get into fighters heads...Used flash and was the master of dirty fighting...yes ALI was dirty (and I am a fan)...On his best day Bernard Hopkins who prides himself on such things is not a tenth as ring savvy as Ali was...Ali hit and held, hit behind the head, hit after the bell....but it worked for him

He became a fighter that used his tremendous chin to actually let guys punch themselves out.....

Two of his 5 losses were waayyy past his best..Berbick and Spinks)...Rumor still circulates to the fact he lost the Spinks bout on purpose so he could regain the title one last time and be the first man to hold the title 3 times...knowing he was winding down and it was possibly his Last chance to really accomplish anything....Even his loss to Homes was past his best....

(Though that is in no way a dig at Holmes Larry was a great champion in his own right)....

There is no shame in losing a bout to Ken Norton...Ken was a hard guy to fight and he had an odd style that was hard to adjust to...His other loss during his prime years was to Frazier a widely recognized top 10 all time HW....A loss that had to do with as much to atrition as Fraziers skill

He was never beaten in his prime handily....Also Ali lost 3 of his best years so in is return to the ring after exile was an Ali who had lost some of his youth...and just because a fighter gets knocked down does not take away from his skill......Sorry to break the news to some of the guys out there who seem to use that against many fighters throughout these boards....

Ali may have or may have not been the best HW of all time thus far...He is No less then second...He certainly fought better men in their prime then Louis or Marciano....Louis was KO'd flat in his prime years and Marciano had a great chin, stamina and will power but could not box for shit!...Fact not opinion...

It was Ali being able to reinvent himself so often, the fact Ali turned this sport into the mass publics eye, the fact Ali invented the mind game, the mega fights, the way he brought it all together at once when need be that made him the Greatest....There was more to it then skill alone.....

Anyone who questions Ali in even the slightest or feels he was not as good as made out to be...knows nothing about the sport of boxing

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Originally Posted by DaxxKahn

Ali reigned in the greatest HW era of all time, When he started in the early 1960's the level of competition was about the same as it was during the reign of Marciano with the exception of Charles and Joe Walcott,

Ali beat Liston...A man still considered one of the mos feared fighters of all time....(Lets avoid the whole fix in the second and mob tie bullshit that follows shall we)...He beat Frazier....(Lets not start saying well Joe was smaller then todays guys and would have lost in the 90's)....He beat a vicious George Foreman.....

Al beat every contender and then some there was to fight...Something I don't think anyone else can say with the exception of Louis...and Lewis...

The contenders back then were more skilled then most champions are today....

Ali reinvented himself no less then 3 times...

He went from lighting quick kid who had the reflexes of a lightweight in the early parts.....

He became a fighter that used the mental game to get into fighters heads...Used flash and was the master of dirty fighting...yes ALI was dirty (and I am a fan)...On his best day Bernard Hopkins who prides himself on such things is not a tenth as ring savvy as Ali was...Ali hit and held, hit behind the head, hit after the bell....but it worked for him

He became a fighter that used his tremendous chin to actually let guys punch themselves out.....

Two of his 5 losses were waayyy past his best..Berbick and Spinks)...Rumor still circulates to the fact he lost the Spinks bout on purpose so he could regain the title one last time and be the first man to hold the title 3 times...knowing he was winding down and it was possibly his Last chance to really accomplish anything....Even his loss to Homes was past his best....

(Though that is in no way a dig at Holmes Larry was a great champion in his own right)....

There is no shame in losing a bout to Ken Norton...Ken was a hard guy to fight and he had an odd style that was hard to adjust to...His other loss was to Frazier....

He was never beaten in his prime...and just because a fighter gets knocked down does not take away from his skill......Sorry to break the news to some of the guys out there who seem to use that against many fighters throughout these boards....

Ali may have or may have not been the best HW of all time thus far...He is No less then second...He certainly fought better men in their prime then Louis or Marciano....Louis was KO'd flat in his prime years and Marciano had a great chin, stamina and will power but could not box for shit!...Fact not opinion...

It was Ali being able to reinvent himself so often, the fact Ali turned this sport into the mass publics eye, the fact Ali invented the mind game, the mega fights, the way he brought it all together at once when need be that made him the Greatest....There was more to it then skill alone.....

Anyone who questions Ali in even the slightest or feels he was not as good as made out to be...knows nothing about the sport of boxing

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Touche!!

Ali's era was the most exiting in Heavyweight history, Foreman knocked out Frazier and Norton, Ali knocked out Foreman, Frazier beat Ali, Norton beat Ali, Young beat Foreman, Holmes beat Norton and Ali. Liston beat Patterson and Ali beat Liston. Ali was the most outspoken and loudest, and drew more media attention than anyone else but again the best I question it. Foreman fought over 28 years and lost the same amount of fights as Ali, Holmes went 48-0, I think a list of the top 5 can be made but no one can argue that a certain fighter can be labeled as the best. Johnson was the greatest of his era, Marciano of his, Louis of his, Ali of his, Holmes of his and Tyson of his. The argument can go on forever.... In Ali's era you could say it was the best batch of talent, or you could say there was a lot of well matched great fighters, depending on their styles they beat each other and created the most memorable entertainment. Regarding the comment of anyone doubting Ali being the best doesn't know anything about boxing, is just ignorant.

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Originally Posted by DaxxKahn

Ali reigned in the greatest HW era of all time, When he started in the early 1960's the level of competition was about the same as it was during the reign of Marciano with the exception of Charles and Joe Walcott,

Ali beat Liston...A man still considered one of the mos feared fighters of all time....(Lets avoid the whole fix in the second and mob ties bullshit that usually follows shall we)...He beat Frazier....(Lets not start saying well Joe was smaller then todays guys and would have lost in the 90's)....He beat a vicious George Foreman.....

Ali beat every contender and then some there was to fight...Something I don't think anyone else can say with the exception of Louis...and Lewis...

The contenders back then were more skilled then most champions are today....

Ali reinvented himself no less then 3 times...

He went from lighting quick kid who had the reflexes of a lightweight in the early parts.....

He became a fighter that used the mental game to get into fighters heads...Used flash and was the master of dirty fighting...yes ALI was dirty (and I am a fan)...On his best day Bernard Hopkins who prides himself on such things is not a tenth as ring savvy as Ali was...Ali hit and held, hit behind the head, hit after the bell....but it worked for him

He became a fighter that used his tremendous chin to actually let guys punch themselves out.....

Two of his 5 losses were waayyy past his best..Berbick and Spinks)...Rumor still circulates to the fact he lost the Spinks bout on purpose so he could regain the title one last time and be the first man to hold the title 3 times...knowing he was winding down and it was possibly his Last chance to really accomplish anything....Even his loss to Homes was past his best....

(Though that is in no way a dig at Holmes Larry was a great champion in his own right)....

There is no shame in losing a bout to Ken Norton...Ken was a hard guy to fight and he had an odd style that was hard to adjust to...His other loss during his prime years was to Frazier a widely recognized top 10 all time HW....A loss that had to do with as much to atrition as Fraziers skill

He was never beaten in his prime handily....Also Ali lost 3 of his best years so in is return to the ring after exile was an Ali who had lost some of his youth...and just because a fighter gets knocked down does not take away from his skill......Sorry to break the news to some of the guys out there who seem to use that against many fighters throughout these boards....

Ali may have or may have not been the best HW of all time thus far...He is No less then second...He certainly fought better men in their prime then Louis or Marciano....Louis was KO'd flat in his prime years and Marciano had a great chin, stamina and will power but could not box for shit!...Fact not opinion...

It was Ali being able to reinvent himself so often, the fact Ali turned this sport into the mass publics eye, the fact Ali invented the mind game, the mega fights, the way he brought it all together at once when need be that made him the Greatest....There was more to it then skill alone.....

Anyone who questions Ali in even the slightest or feels he was not as good as made out to be...knows nothing about the sport of boxing

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Excellent post! The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth!

Oh and never beaten in his Prime, what about Frazier Ali was 29 years old, when was his prime then?

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Originally Posted by jmbtandy

Ali's era was the most exiting in Heavyweight history, Foreman knocked out Frazier and Norton, Ali knocked out Foreman, Frazier beat Ali, Norton beat Ali, Young beat Foreman, Holmes beat Norton and Ali. Liston beat Patterson and Ali beat Liston. Ali was the most outspoken and loudest, and drew more media attention than anyone else but again the best I question it. Foreman fought over 28 years and lost the same amount of fights as Ali, Holmes went 48-0, I think a list of the top 5 can be made but no one can argue that a certain fighter can be labeled as the best. Johnson was the greatest of his era, Marciano of his, Louis of his, Ali of his, Holmes of his and Tyson of his. The argument can go on forever.... In Ali's era you could say it was the best batch of talent, or you could say there was a lot of well matched great fighters, depending on their styles they beat each other and created the most memorable entertainment. Regarding the comment of anyone doubting Ali being the best doesn't know anything about boxing, is just ignorant.

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Ali also beat Frazier...You mention Frazier beating him but leave that part out.....Ali also beat Norton twice to Ken beating him once...

With wins over Patterson, Liston, Frazier and Foreman that make 4 of the best heavyweights of all time...When going by the list of most top analyst...

Also I said in my post

"Ali may or may not be the best heavyweight of all time thus far"...

I even stated he could possibly be ranked second....

Another thing you just seemed to over look...

I also made more emphasis on the fact he was the "Greatest HW" and stressed the whole picture surrounding Ali that made him so....

Before you try to get cute with me and post crap like..."Is Just Ignorant"...make sure you have all your facts together and have read everything the right way.....Or else you just make an idiot out of yourself

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Originally Posted by jmbtandy

Oh and never beaten in his Prime, what about Frazier Ali was 29 years old, when was his prime then?

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OHHH...as you try to get sarcastic again....I think I went back and edited my post to "Never beaten in his prime handily"....meaning he was never flat outclassed and beaten one sided...and the fact the elemts had something to do with the loss on top of the fgact he was just two fights back from a 3 year absence...3 of his best years age wise....

So do you want to keep trying to pick apart my post.....please do because each time I just make you look more and more like an amateur...

To be honest you are making it too easy not too

Oh we are playing that game, yes you insulting me makes me look like an idiot, mmm really ok,

Ali was beaten convincingly by Frazier the 1st time (In his Prime), the other two fights he certainly made up for that and switched the results, Norton was unlucky not to get all the decisions against Ali where as Foreman destroyed Norton twice.

Feel free to pick apart anything that I have written, that's what makes this interesting, not everyone is going to have the same views. Just because my view doesn't match yours how does that make me an amateur? In website chats yes I am am amateur, I have never really bothered with them before, which is a shame as I am quite enjoying this one, but in regards to boxing I assure you I know what I am talking about.

Keep em coming

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Violent Demise

Louis lost 3 times. Why don't you rank Marciano over him?

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Louis defended his title successfully 25 times, he gave Rocky a hard fight in the twilight of his career, he lost once before his prime and then 2 other times much later in his career.

Joe Louis lost 2 years of his prime due to the war and he went a stretch of 14 years without being beaten.

Patterson and Liston don't belong on ANY "greatest heavyweights of all time" list...they might be top 20 but they aren't top 10 like Ezzard Charles and Joe Walcott.


Daxx you can love on Ali all you want to but not me...I'm not a sheep and I don't buy into this myth that has become Ali. Don't try and call me a bad boxing fan for not blindly putting Ali at #1...I've thought out my opinion and the more you want to call me ignorant and stupid the more stubborn I will be so it's probably best you drop it.

"Anyone who questions Ali in even the slightest or feels he was not as good as made out to be...knows nothing about the sport of boxing"

So do I know nothing about boxing? When did it become wrong to question a fighter? People question Rocky to hell and back and as I said before #1 He never lost #2 he was the underdog for the most part and #3 he fought better competition than people give him credit for.


But nooooo I get called every name in the book AND I get accused of being a racist to boot. What a great legacy Ali's fans are putting into place.....as giant assholes

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lyle

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Violent Demise

Louis lost 3 times. Why don't you rank Marciano over him?

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Louis defended his title successfully 25 times, he gave Rocky a hard fight in the twilight of his career, he lost once before his prime and then 2 other times much later in his career.

Joe Louis lost 2 years of his prime due to the war and he went a stretch of 14 years without being beaten.

Patterson and Liston don't belong on ANY "greatest heavyweights of all time" list...they might be top 20 but they aren't top 10 like Ezzard Charles and Joe Walcott.


Daxx you can love on Ali all you want to but not me...I'm not a sheep and I don't buy into this myth that has become Ali. Don't try and call me a bad boxing fan for not blindly putting Ali at #1...I've thought out my opinion and the more you want to call me ignorant and stupid the more stubborn I will be so it's probably best you drop it.

"Anyone who questions Ali in even the slightest or feels he was not as good as made out to be...knows nothing about the sport of boxing"

So do I know nothing about boxing? When did it become wrong to question a fighter? People question Rocky to hell and back and as I said before #1 He never lost #2 he was the underdog for the most part and #3 he fought better competition than people give him credit for.


But nooooo I get called every name in the book AND I get accused of being a racist to boot. What a great legacy Ali's fans are putting into place.....as giant assholes

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Yeah Lyle ANYONE who questions if Ali was a great fighter knows nothing about boxing...I will say it again ANYONE!!!!....You may not think he is the best of all time but many people don't...Just as many people put Louis as #1 as Ali...Personally it is a toss up...But as a whole no one was as influential to the sport as Ali...

As for the Racist shit get the fuck off of it seems almost every fucking thread your involved in over the last few days you mention the words...I am not a racist>....


Who the fuck said anything about yopu being a racist?....Did you see one fucking thing where I mentioned you name at all?...NO YOU FUCKING DIDN"T....So maybe you are a racist fuck and I can give two shits...but don't fucking start bringing shit in that was nnever mentioned and who the fuck are you to tell me to drop anything?

Lyle it's simple, if you look at what they did in the ring and in the ring only, there is no comparision. I know it's the extracurricular stuff that sours you to Ali but if you look at what he did between the ropes from the moment the bell rang then it's pretty clear who had the greater career. I mean Ali probably tripled Marciano's number of quality opponents if not more then that and he has by far the greater caliber of wins. I'm not trying to attack but that's just pretty obvious to see.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jmbtandy

Oh we are playing that game, yes you insulting me makes me look like an idiot, mmm really ok,

Ali was beaten convincingly by Frazier the 1st time (In his Prime), the other two fights he certainly made up for that and switched the results, Norton was unlucky not to get all the decisions against Ali where as Foreman destroyed Norton twice.

Feel free to pick apart anything that I have written, that's what makes this interesting, not everyone is going to have the same views. Just because my view doesn't match yours how does that make me an amateur? In website chats yes I am am amateur, I have never really bothered with them before, which is a shame as I am quite enjoying this one, but in regards to boxing I assure you I know what I am talking about.

Keep em coming

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You are the one who started trying to make my post look bad by leaving things out and mis-quoting me...you got called out on it...thats an insult?...you started trying to make my post look bad by using improper information and changing things around for your convienience...I called you out on it and I insulted you?....You tried to make yourself look like you were a know it all and were put in your place simple....

Well Daxx are you going to cry about it???

Maybe you should just stop and think if it's ok for people to have different views. I have stated my views, I have supported my views, and yet I am the one berated...I didn't say ANYTHING bad about Ali and yet I just get attacked relentlessly.

Someone else brought up race Daxx, the whole arguement wasn't all about you...I wasn't even the one that started it but I HAD to respond to it because it's not the case and I wanted to make that clear...if it was the case the wouldn't Rocky have been #1 on my list?


As for the opponents, you can't choose who is fighting in your era, all you can do is beat them and all three of the fighters did that but Louis and Marciano were more successful in beating their opponents.


And can you settle the fuck down??? Daxx, I like you, you're a poster who has been around a long time and posts good well thought out stuff but right now you're trying to tell me my own opinion and that's what this is it's an opinion thread and I see things differently than you in this case and the reason I told you to drop it is because you're in full tantrum....I'm not trying to piss anyone off I'm just stating my own opinion and I am allowed to have one aren't I???