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Let alone dominate the heavyweight division? I mean, if you look at him size wise on paper, he should've gotten murdered. 5'11", 71" reach isn't exactly optimal heavyweight measurables, and while it's a known fact that he was quick and had good punching power, you'd think he would've just been peppered with jabs and never got inside of anyone.
Does anyone have a solid explaination for this? Because it really leaves me scratching my head.
Iron Mike has incredible POWER to WEIGHT ratio, speed, and his overall boxing skills is one of the best IMO.
Just watch him fight..... He was incredibly stocky and thick, yet had extremely good reflexes, body control, head movement and hand speed. His height and reach were only a disadvantage when he was sitting on the outside, which in his prime was not often. He relied on steadily moving forward, weaving and using his own jab to close the distance, and once he got inside his build was completely to his advantage.
The era of the super heavyweights did not begin until the late 90's
Primal instincts and top notch reflexes and speed.Also the influences of Cus,Teddy.That era of Heavys was clutter waiting for a bad ass with a broom.His stubby legs were like coiled steel,springing under most guys early on and leaving them detached from there senses.
Well being shorter he could get underneath the punches and come up and land those devastating hooks, his head movement was excellent i mean just watch one of his early fights when he makes this one guy miss about 8 punches in a row then he counters and KO's the other guy. Tyson also had very quick hands so he could rattle off quick combo's and then get back to his bob and weave defense. Also just look at his body shape he is stocky and naturally very big man, when he was about 15 he was close to 200 pounds, plus it was his perfect punching technique along with his amazing speed that contributed to his power. And it also has to be said that the division at that time was one of the weakest in history.Quote:
Originally Posted by aburwell89
he was really fast and had extremely good head movement.Quote:
Originally Posted by p4pking
Wrong Topic nvm.
Because in his prime he never doubted himself. Boxing IS aound 90% mental and if you break a man mentally, physically he will break down too. He imposed his will on his opponents and made them fold by his ruthlessness. Dempsey had a similar attitude in the ring. Whats sad is most heavyweights today only fight as good as the guy in front him and do just enough to get by but dont have the Tyson mentality.
If you ever watch his early days the answer is right on the screen.
His neck was so thick he absorbed punches well, he was fast and had great head movement, his combination punching was superb and the guy could hit like a tank.
He had a longer reach then Marciano and was stockier so you might as well ask how did Rocky go undefeated?
The peek a boo.
It's interesting you bring that up, and really makes me wonder if the art was truly lost with Cus.Quote:
Originally Posted by amat
Don't think it is lost just not all the time a guy comes along in the heavyweight ranks who has the ability and the build to employ the style. Floyd Patterson and Mike Tyson just don't walk through the door very often. But that is the reason Tyson was able to take what were seemingly disadvantages and work them to his advantage that's exactly why the style was created so that's the answer to your question.Quote:
Originally Posted by aburwell89It's interesting you bring that up, and really makes me wonder if the art was truly lost with Cus.Quote:
Originally Posted by amat
There are plenty of trainers who know the style I am sure. Maybe not all as good as Cus D'amato or Kevin Rooney teach it but all in all the style is a simple one really, though effective.Quote:
Originally Posted by aburwell89It's interesting you bring that up, and really makes me wonder if the art was truly lost with Cus.Quote:
Originally Posted by amat
The Peek-a-boo style is not a style meant for all fighters though, you must have a certain build, you can not be a big guy. It is more for smaller compact fighters to use effectively.
Floyd Patterson used it but his was a variation though, he would often leap from a crouch to get maximum power.
That's what I was thinking. Considering that most people who fight in the heavyweight division don't fall into that overall build, it's pretty understandable that you don't see it much anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by Put Em' UpThere are plenty of trainers who know the style I am sure. Maybe not all as good as Cus D'amato or Kevin Rooney teach it but all in all the style is a simple one really, though effective.Quote:
Originally Posted by aburwell89It's interesting you bring that up, and really makes me wonder if the art was truly lost with Cus.Quote:
Originally Posted by amat
The Peek-a-boo style is not a style meant for all fighters though, you must have a certain build, you can not be a big guy. It is more for smaller compact fighters to use effectively.
Floyd Patterson used it but his was a variation though, he would often leap from a crouch to get maximum power.
Yeah I also think it only really works at heavyweight because that's the only division where you have dramatic size differences really. Patterson was a much smaller man then Tyson, turned pro at middleweight and like you said he would often have to literally jump from that down low position to make his punches count. Tyson was also much more of an inside fighter then Patterson, Patterson needed space to punch where Tyson's punches were very short and once he got inside on you you were pretty much done.Quote:
Originally Posted by Put Em' UpThere are plenty of trainers who know the style I am sure. Maybe not all as good as Cus D'amato or Kevin Rooney teach it but all in all the style is a simple one really, though effective.Quote:
Originally Posted by aburwell89It's interesting you bring that up, and really makes me wonder if the art was truly lost with Cus.Quote:
Originally Posted by amat
The Peek-a-boo style is not a style meant for all fighters though, you must have a certain build, you can not be a big guy. It is more for smaller compact fighters to use effectively.
Floyd Patterson used it but his was a variation though, he would often leap from a crouch to get maximum power.
Especially in the era of superheavys - guys 6'4" to 6'7" tend to use that height to their best advantage.Quote:
Originally Posted by aburwell89That's what I was thinking. Considering that most people who fight in the heavyweight division don't fall into that overall build, it's pretty understandable that you don't see it much anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by Put Em' UpThere are plenty of trainers who know the style I am sure. Maybe not all as good as Cus D'amato or Kevin Rooney teach it but all in all the style is a simple one really, though effective.Quote:
Originally Posted by aburwell89
The Peek-a-boo style is not a style meant for all fighters though, you must have a certain build, you can not be a big guy. It is more for smaller compact fighters to use effectively.
Floyd Patterson used it but his was a variation though, he would often leap from a crouch to get maximum power.
Remember a welter Named Ricky Meyers, a staple on ESPN and came in with Kevin Rooney in the early 90's.He tried to duplicate the bob & weave to the tee early on,did well until his Chin caught up to himQuote:
Originally Posted by Put Em' UpThere are plenty of trainers who know the style I am sure. Maybe not all as good as Cus D'amato or Kevin Rooney teach it but all in all the style is a simple one really, though effective.Quote:
Originally Posted by aburwell89It's interesting you bring that up, and really makes me wonder if the art was truly lost with Cus.Quote:
Originally Posted by amat
The Peek-a-boo style is not a style meant for all fighters though, you must have a certain build, you can not be a big guy. It is more for smaller compact fighters to use effectively.
Floyd Patterson used it but his was a variation though, he would often leap from a crouch to get maximum power.
That is correct , and Tyson's oposition was poor , ageing former champs / light heavies( Spinks ) and poor fighters like Tyrell Biggs.Quote:
Originally Posted by lance Uppercut
Lennox Lewis and Riddick Bowe were both pretty big.Quote:
Originally Posted by lance Uppercut
To me the 'super' era really started there (e.g. the early 90'es), although subsequent boxers were even bigger. Of course Tyson didnt fight either of them in his prime, and he did not really 'dominate' the divsion anymore when they came around either.
Also, it is worth noting that before 2000 Tyson only fought three fighters weighing in at 235 or more. And Sammy Scaff, Mike Jameson and Bruno II weren't exactly the biggest threats (pun intended) to him to begin with.
Mike had a very low centre of gravity along with very thick legs, that illustrates the ability to generate bug power.
Coupled with the perfect style Cus D'Amato taught him Mike was an incredibly destructive machine. His defense was always good early.
Qs you said if fights were drawn out and the opponent had a good jab Mike was in bother, but with his sort of power he was able to prevent this by finishing fights early.
Mike Tyson had great training and technique.
Everyone Cus or Rooney has trained is like a Tyson, Patterson, or Torres.
I think that plus the lack of any strong fighters in Tyson's era helped him dominate. Had he run into a Lewis or Holyfield or Foreman or even Bowe then Tyson would have had lots of trouble and more than likely lost even in his prime.
He had an ability to close that was unreal,when his leg speed went,so did heQuote:
Originally Posted by aburwell89
I remember an article around here a while back Tyson where somebody claimed that Tyson wanted no part of Foreman, even the old version of Foreman. That fight probably could have been made if Tyson wanted it. According to the article, Tyson understood that stylistically, Foreman was the worse possible matchup for swarmers. Look how easily he dispatched Frazier both times.
True I couldn't believe what he did to Smokin Joe!Quote:
Originally Posted by RozzySean
Smokin Joe said himself he hated being swarmed...the rematch was just as bad...Wonder what the whole shaved skull shit was about.
Same idea as Hagler, he thought the shaved dome made him more menacing. Foreman said when he fought Frazier he was terrified entering the ring, so Frazier tried to frighten him more the second time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tins06
I disagree i thought Frazier done a bit better in the rematch he counter punched Foreman and made him miss. Foreman caught up to him in the end but he done a lot better than he did the first time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tins06
Foreman had some troubles with a similar type of opponent aka Dwight Muhammad Qawi, exact same style as Frazier but lasted a lot longer and done better, and remember how short Qawi was, and remember what his natural weight class was.Quote:
Originally Posted by RozzySean
Any idea on he whole shaved skull thing ? what was that all about.
I have a video - you remember those tape things before DVD was invented ;) - and Tyson himself states that the jab is 100% about timing. His own words are that if you get the timing right you can be 5ft 8in and out jab a guy 6ft 2in...
Timing is the answer to why Tyson was rarely out jabbed in the early days.
To be honest though what Tyson opponent in the late 80s ever really tried to establish the jab ??Quote:
Originally Posted by Shamrock
Thinking about it... I can't honestly remember one :confused: until Larry Holmes tried it for about a minute in their fight... I think he landed 3 in a row on Mike before getting dismantled brutally....Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBTo be honest though what Tyson opponent in the late 80s ever really tried to establish the jab ??Quote:
Originally Posted by Shamrock
Yea when Holmes danced at the start of the 4th round and landed few solid jabs but other than that. He just held the left hand out there to stop Tyson from coming in. Quite surprised none of the tall Heavyweight's like Biggs, Tucker, etc, never tried to establish the jab but thats what fear does to you makes you doubt yourself, of course the only Heavyweight at that time who did use the jab to good effect was Douglas, but Tyson was already faded force by then. I would of liked to have seen how prime Tyson would of dealt with a good jabber.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShamrockThinking about it... I can't honestly remember one :confused: until Larry Holmes tried it for about a minute in their fight... I think he landed 3 in a row on Mike before getting dismantled brutally....Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBTo be honest though what Tyson opponent in the late 80s ever really tried to establish the jab ??Quote:
Originally Posted by Shamrock
Tyson had speed, power, technique, confidence, combinations, hunger, skill, and 20" neck. The real question you should ask is how did the other heavyweights survive. :)
The Qawi fight was under a year into his comeback and he still stopped him. The only other guy to stop Qawi was Holyfield in peak form at Cruiser. Yeah, Frazier looked better in the second fight, but he still got stopped. That's the problem with swarmers against guys with big one-punch power. I mean, Moorer was winning practically every round before George finally caught him. Even old Foreman would have been challenge for Tyson because George would not have been intimidated by him and he had the chin to take Mike in to deep water.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBForeman had some troubles with a similar type of opponent aka Dwight Muhammad Qawi, exact same style as Frazier but lasted a lot longer and done better, and remember how short Qawi was, and remember what his natural weight class was.Quote:
Originally Posted by RozzySean
Do not believe that Tyson was avoiding Foreman. He was fighting Rudduck who at that time was far more dangerous than old George.
Yea but lets remember Qawi is a natural Cruiserweight and is very short somewhere around 5'7 mark, and lets also remember Foreman was actually in pretty good shape for that fight 235 pounds.Quote:
Originally Posted by RozzySeanThe Qawi fight was under a year into his comeback and he still stopped him. The only other guy to stop Qawi was Holyfield in peak form at Cruiser. Yeah, Frazier looked better in the second fight, but he still got stopped. That's the problem with swarmers against guys with big one-punch power. I mean, Moorer was winning practically every round before George finally caught him. Even old Foreman would have been challenge for Tyson because George would not have been intimidated by him and he had the chin to take Mike in to deep water.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBForeman had some troubles with a similar type of opponent aka Dwight Muhammad Qawi, exact same style as Frazier but lasted a lot longer and done better, and remember how short Qawi was, and remember what his natural weight class was.Quote:
Originally Posted by RozzySean
hahaha this really makes this thread complete, kudos.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
But in hindsight Rudduck was half the fighter that Old Foreman was....all Rudduck was, was a punch...one at a time....there was no strategy, there was no chin, there was no stamina.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
George Foreman was ALWAYS tough....if he had the mental toughness of Ali or Louis he would have been the greatest of all time