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The LINEAL welterweight championship
So this is a topic that just struck me as interesting.. And is somewhat down to judgement..
Im actually suprised how far into it i remember but this is how the REAL champion of the welterweights has gone over time..
Tito
Oscar
Sugar shane
Forrest
Mayorga
Spinks
Zab
(This is where it gets interesting.. Aka disputed instead of undisputed.Lol :p)
Then baldomir beats zab to become lineal.. Zab keeps one title and fights on against floyd..
Floyd beats zab.. Not the real title..
But floyd also beats Baldomir.. which IS the lineal title..
So this makes floyd the reigning and defending champ at welter.. Allegedly..
But honestly.. The records of titles and the men who beat the men etc tells you that floyd is the champ..
But to me.. Miguel cotto is the champ..
He has fought
Originally for the vacant wba - Carlos Quintana ( Who went on to win a legit title against paul williams and this further validates miguel cotto's destruction of a great fighter/ World class fighter in Quintana
Mandatory.. Everyone fights em.. Veteran urkal.. Stoppage win.. As expected..
Zab judah.. Hard hitter.. Exciting fight. good match making.. Former undisputed champ..
Shane mosely.. Legend, Former lineal champ.. Still on form good fight.
Gomez - Solid, classy contender status sort of fighter.. Made to look an amatuer and outclassed completely..
Next - Antonio margarito two time welterweight champion.. beast of a fighter.. More great match making..
and furthermore the winner of this fight pretty much has to be considered the lineal champ the true champ at welterweight..
The lineal champs dont fight once a year.. Which adds further question to what the wbc is all about unless they have a high profile star holding theyr titles and paying theyr sanctioning fees.. Aka floyd, aka oscar, aka seeking a bigger money fight vitali comeback.. Its the money..
And its quite possible that because of this a lineal champ, the man who beat the man will be surpassed, stripped by the public of bieng the real champ.. because of inactivity on his part and great activity by miguel cotto.
i dont even think i can remember this happening in the past..
Thoughts anyone?
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Re: The LINEAL welterweight championship
Was interesting Tito BHB , in show all this trayectory and i agree with you bro...........Cotto is the Champion in WW Div..........;D
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Re: The LINEAL welterweight championship
That was a good read. whomever wins between Cotto and Margarito should be consider the Champ at 147. Floyd would still be considered p4p #1 IMO but really has no claim anymore at 147.
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Re: The LINEAL welterweight championship
floyd for me
he beat the man who beat the man
deserves to be recognised as the true champ
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Re: The LINEAL welterweight championship
Spinks > Judah > Baldomir > PBF.....
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Re: The LINEAL welterweight championship
The answer is not simply to recognize a different guy as the champion. To do so would be to invite chaos, which is precisely what we have today.
Just because you think Cotto should be champ doesn't automatically make him one!
Championships should be won & lost in the ring, its as simple as that & if you don't agree with that your part of the problem with the game today.
Ali was recognize by the Ring the whole time he was on his forced hiatus up until he announced his retirement then Frazier won the vacant championship.
Now Floyd hasn't been inactive as long as nearly 4 years & he is scheduled to fight in September. Some champions only defended their championships a few times in many years but they were always considered the champ!
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Re: The LINEAL welterweight championship
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Galaxy
The answer is not simply to recognize a different guy as the champion. To do so would be to invite chaos, which is precisely what we have today.
Just because you think Cotto should be champ doesn't automatically make him one!
Championships should be won & lost in the ring, its as simple as that & if you don't agree with that your part of the problem with the game today.
Ali was recognize by the Ring the whole time he was on his forced hiatus up until he announced his retirement then Frazier won the vacant championship.
Now Floyd hasn't been inactive as long as nearly 4 years & he is scheduled to fight in September. Some champions only defended their championships a few times in many years but they were always considered the champ!
Nobody said because i believe it to be so.. That makes it so..
And the whole thread is me expressing opinion..
The thing is championships are won and lost in the ring.. and thats why i ask COULD it be that the lineal champion could be surpassed..
So tell me it is enough for the man of the division to fight once a year..
Ricky was a superfight.. The reason we wanted to see it.. Because hes a great guy and a nicer guy couldnt be given the opportunity to beat the p4p best.. that fight really wasnt about the lineal welterweight title..it was about money and p4p contention..But as much as i like ricky he couldnt be seriously ranked as a genuine welterweight contender..
the oscar fight was at 154.. Even if the next oscar fight is at 147 (Which might i add is not signed.. and isnt official.. its just highly probable, the money is there and the fighters have an agreement.. not a contract..)
But who would rank oscar as a top ten welterweight as of right now.. Nobody..
What im saying is there is a true welterweight.. hes at welterweight..
the welterweight division is the least alphabet of all the divisions.. every champion has theyr claim to call themselves a champion, not just a titlist..
And of all the champions i believe miguel cotto is the most legit.. hes keeping busy, signing the right fights.. im not saying he has surpassed floyd..
Im just saying it could be that the winner of cotto - margarito will be seen as more of a lineal champion then floyd himself
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Re: The LINEAL welterweight championship
And in all fairness..
It also comes down to the wbc letting who they please keep titles for the best interest of theyre organisation..
They did it when oscar won the junior middleweight title off mayorga..
they did it from when floyd took the welter title from baldo.. and then didnt defend it until he fought hatton..
because he pays the fee's.. They have the p4p number one with theyr title.. Hes had a wbc title in each class hes been in.. and they are making more money out of letting him fight one superfight a year..
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Re: The LINEAL welterweight championship
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tito BHB
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Galaxy
The answer is not simply to recognize a different guy as the champion. To do so would be to invite chaos, which is precisely what we have today.
Just because you think Cotto should be champ doesn't automatically make him one!
Championships should be won & lost in the ring, its as simple as that & if you don't agree with that your part of the problem with the game today.
Ali was recognize by the Ring the whole time he was on his forced hiatus up until he announced his retirement then Frazier won the vacant championship.
Now Floyd hasn't been inactive as long as nearly 4 years & he is scheduled to fight in September. Some champions only defended their championships a few times in many years but they were always considered the champ!
Nobody said because i believe it to be so.. That makes it so..
And the whole thread is me expressing opinion..
The thing is championships are won and lost in the ring.. and thats why i ask COULD it be that the lineal champion could be surpassed..
So tell me it is enough for the man of the division to fight once a year..
Ricky was a superfight.. The reason we wanted to see it.. Because hes a great guy and a nicer guy couldnt be given the opportunity to beat the p4p best.. that fight really wasnt about the lineal welterweight title..it was about money and p4p contention..But as much as i like ricky he couldnt be seriously ranked as a genuine welterweight contender..
the oscar fight was at 154.. Even if the next oscar fight is at 147 (Which might i add is
not signed.. and isnt official.. its just highly probable, the money is there and the fighters have an agreement.. not a contract..)
But who would rank oscar as a top ten welterweight as of right now.. Nobody..
What im saying is there is a true welterweight.. hes at welterweight..
the welterweight division is the least alphabet of all the divisions.. every champion has theyr claim to call themselves a champion, not just a titlist..
And of all the champions i believe miguel cotto is the most legit.. hes keeping busy, signing the right fights.. im not saying he has surpassed floyd..
Im just saying it could be that the winner of cotto - margarito will be seen as more of a lineal champion then floyd himself
I agree with you that Cotto is the best challenger for Mayweather, but until that fight happens or Floyd vacates the championship Cotto will be the #1 contender.
The fight between Cotto & Margarito as great as it is will only create a true challenger & #1 contender for Mayweather. Until Floyd loses @ 147, retires or vacates the championship he will remain the division champion.
I understand your frustrations & opinions by why try to complicate things? Until you beat the man your not the man!
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Re: The LINEAL welterweight championship
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Galaxy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tito BHB
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Galaxy
The answer is not simply to recognize a different guy as the champion. To do so would be to invite chaos, which is precisely what we have today.
Just because you think Cotto should be champ doesn't automatically make him one!
Championships should be won & lost in the ring, its as simple as that & if you don't agree with that your part of the problem with the game today.
Ali was recognize by the Ring the whole time he was on his forced hiatus up until he announced his retirement then Frazier won the vacant championship.
Now Floyd hasn't been inactive as long as nearly 4 years & he is scheduled to fight in September. Some champions only defended their championships a few times in many years but they were always considered the champ!
Nobody said because i believe it to be so.. That makes it so..
And the whole thread is me expressing opinion..
The thing is championships are won and lost in the ring.. and thats why i ask COULD it be that the lineal champion could be surpassed..
So tell me it is enough for the man of the division to fight once a year..
Ricky was a superfight.. The reason we wanted to see it.. Because hes a great guy and a nicer guy couldnt be given the opportunity to beat the p4p best.. that fight really wasnt about the lineal welterweight title..it was about money and p4p contention..But as much as i like ricky he couldnt be seriously ranked as a genuine welterweight contender..
the oscar fight was at 154.. Even if the next oscar fight is at 147 (Which might i add is
not signed.. and isnt official.. its just highly probable, the money is there and the fighters have an agreement.. not a contract..)
But who would rank oscar as a top ten welterweight as of right now.. Nobody..
What im saying is there is a true welterweight.. hes at welterweight..
the welterweight division is the least alphabet of all the divisions.. every champion has theyr claim to call themselves a champion, not just a titlist..
And of all the champions i believe miguel cotto is the most legit.. hes keeping busy, signing the right fights.. im not saying he has surpassed floyd..
Im just saying it could be that the winner of cotto - margarito will be seen as more of a lineal champion then floyd himself
I agree with you that Cotto is the best challenger for Mayweather, but until that fight happens or Floyd vacates the championship Cotto will be the #1 contender.
The fight between Cotto & Margarito as great as it is will only create a true challenger & #1 contender for Mayweather. Until Floyd loses @ 147, retires or vacates the championship he will remain the division champion.
I understand your frustrations & opinions by why try to complicate things? Until you beat the man your not the man!
The question is, how long do we consider him champ? If Mayweather fights unrated welterweights, how can you justify him keeping his belt?
The last time he fought someone that was RATED as a welterweight was Baldomir I think that was almost 2 years ago.
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Re: The LINEAL welterweight championship
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Galaxy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tito BHB
Nobody said because i believe it to be so.. That makes it so..
And the whole thread is me expressing opinion..
The thing is championships are won and lost in the ring.. and thats why i ask COULD it be that the lineal champion could be surpassed..
So tell me it is enough for the man of the division to fight once a year..
Ricky was a superfight.. The reason we wanted to see it.. Because hes a great guy and a nicer guy couldnt be given the opportunity to beat the p4p best.. that fight really wasnt about the lineal welterweight title..it was about money and p4p contention..But as much as i like ricky he couldnt be seriously ranked as a genuine welterweight contender..
the oscar fight was at 154.. Even if the next oscar fight is at 147 (Which might i add is not signed.. and isnt official.. its just highly probable, the money is there and the fighters have an agreement.. not a contract..)
But who would rank oscar as a top ten welterweight as of right now.. Nobody..
What im saying is there is a true welterweight.. hes at welterweight..
the welterweight division is the least alphabet of all the divisions.. every champion has theyr claim to call themselves a champion, not just a titlist..
And of all the champions i believe miguel cotto is the most legit.. hes keeping busy, signing the right fights.. im not saying he has surpassed floyd..
Im just saying it could be that the winner of cotto - margarito will be seen as more of a lineal champion then floyd himself
I agree with you that Cotto is the best challenger for Mayweather, but until that fight happens or Floyd vacates the championship Cotto will be the #1 contender.
The fight between Cotto & Margarito as great as it is will only create a true challenger & #1 contender for Mayweather. Until Floyd loses @ 147, retires or vacates the championship he will remain the division champion.
I understand your frustrations & opinions by why try to complicate things? Until you beat the man your not the man!
The question is, how long do we consider him champ? If Mayweather fights unrated welterweights, how can you justify him keeping his belt?
The last time he fought someone that was
RATED as a welterweight was Baldomir I think that was almost 2 years ago.
He last fight was a defense of his championship against the 140 pound champion. Before that he fought a future HOF'r, next the same HOF'r. It's not as if he's inactive or fighting unranked fighters. Those last 3 fighters were all against ranked fighters.
I agree that he should be facing Cotto next instead of DLH but the 1st fight was the biggest money earner ever. Hatton followed in another big attraction. Say what you want but those 2 fights alone did more to bring boxing back to the mainstream than any other fights in the last few years.
Floyd did the right thing with the 135 pound championship, he relinquished it to move up so Castillo & Lazcano could fight for the vacant title. I have no reason he wouldn't do the same in this case.
When Paulie Ayala won the vacant Ring championship @ 122 against Bones Adams he never defended it in about 3 years & fought his last 3 fights @ 126, so give Floyd a break he just defended in his last fight.
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Re: The LINEAL welterweight championship
Thanks for the replies..
Something to ponder on is this.. If he were to vacate the title.. he would have stepped out of the position of lineal champion..
But on that note.. If it werent the wbc title he holds.. He prob would have been forced to vacate it.. Like if it were ibf.. they would have said.. fight this bs mandatory.. Floyd says hell no.. And he drops the title.. that would stop him from bieng the lineal champ?.. Maybe.. i guess he is still the champ but it taints the title for whoever fights for the vacant title and technically no one is the lineal champ..
So i spose that would be the way cotto becomes the recognised champ and not the lineal champ..
So perhaps im not saying cotto should be considered lineal.. cos thats about holding the correct title that has been passed.. but that he should be the recognised champ (at least as much as floyd) until someone beats floyd or he retires..
Cos i cant see any other belt organisations letting floyd fight so long without a mandatory..
These are all ifs though.. Dont you just hate ifs..Lol
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Re: The LINEAL welterweight championship
If Mayweather hasn't signed or started negotiations to fight Cotto by this time next year then Cotto deserves the tag 'PEOPLES CHAMPION or UNCROWNED CHAMPION'
The alphabet idiots don't mean sh*t, Floyd could throw that crap trinket in the trash & he would still be the recognized champion!
I think a Mayweather/ Cotto fight will be bigger in 2009 than right now with Cotto hopefully getting past Margarito & Mayweather continuing to increase his crossover appeal against De La Hoya.
The fans will demand it & I'm sure we'll get it!
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Re: The LINEAL welterweight championship
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Galaxy
If Mayweather hasn't signed or started negotiations to fight Cotto by this time next year then Cotto deserves the tag 'PEOPLES CHAMPION or UNCROWNED CHAMPION'
The alphabet idiots don't mean sh*t, Floyd could throw that crap trinket in the trash & he would still be the recognized champion!
I think a Mayweather/ Cotto fight will be bigger in 2009 than right now with Cotto hopefully getting past Margarito & Mayweather continuing to increase his crossover appeal against De La Hoya.
The fans will demand it & I'm sure we'll get it!
I still recognize Floyd as p4p #1 as I mentioned earlier, but fighting people that are not ranked in the weight class mentioned, should not allow you to continue holding that weight classe's distinctive honor.
IMO Floyd lost being the 147 lb. champ when he opted to not fight anyone ranked at 147 for a year after winning the title.
Yes I respect Floyd's victory's over Hatton (unranked at 147, although highly ranked at 140) and ODLH (unranked at 147, although highly ranked at 154) these are things that maintain his p4p status, but have nothing to do with being a weight class champion.
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Re: The LINEAL welterweight championship
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Galaxy
If Mayweather hasn't signed or started negotiations to fight Cotto by this time next year then Cotto deserves the tag 'PEOPLES CHAMPION or UNCROWNED CHAMPION'
The alphabet idiots don't mean sh*t, Floyd could throw that crap trinket in the trash & he would still be the recognized champion!
I think a Mayweather/ Cotto fight will be bigger in 2009 than right now with Cotto hopefully getting past Margarito & Mayweather continuing to increase his crossover appeal against De La Hoya.
The fans will demand it & I'm sure we'll get it!
I still recognize Floyd as p4p #1 as I mentioned earlier, but fighting people that are not ranked in the weight class mentioned, should not allow you to continue holding that weight classe's distinctive honor.
IMO Floyd lost being the 147 lb. champ when he opted to not fight anyone ranked at 147 for a year after winning the title.
Yes I respect Floyd's victory's over Hatton (unranked at 147, although highly ranked at 140) and ODLH (unranked at 147, although highly ranked at 154) these are things that maintain his p4p status, but have nothing to do with being a weight class champion.
Hatton was a defense of his championship. During the war years champions held their titles for years without defending. I'm not saying its the same thing but everyone wanted DLH/ Mayweather 1 & the figures prove that, a lot of people wanted Mayweather/ Hatton. So Mayweather is fighting the fights the majority want to see.
I can't see how you don't recognize Mayweather as 147 champ he's never lost it in the ring & it's only been 5 months since his last defense. From when he won the championship from Baldomir it was 13 months until he defended against Hatton with the DLH fight in between. I think your being a little harsh.
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Re: The LINEAL welterweight championship
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Galaxy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Galaxy
If Mayweather hasn't signed or started negotiations to fight Cotto by this time next year then Cotto deserves the tag 'PEOPLES CHAMPION or UNCROWNED CHAMPION'
The alphabet idiots don't mean sh*t, Floyd could throw that crap trinket in the trash & he would still be the recognized champion!
I think a Mayweather/ Cotto fight will be bigger in 2009 than right now with Cotto hopefully getting past Margarito & Mayweather continuing to increase his crossover appeal against De La Hoya.
The fans will demand it & I'm sure we'll get it!
I still recognize Floyd as p4p #1 as I mentioned earlier, but fighting people that are not ranked in the weight class mentioned, should not allow you to continue holding that weight classe's distinctive honor.
IMO Floyd lost being the 147 lb. champ when he opted to not fight anyone ranked at 147 for a year after winning the title.
Yes I respect Floyd's victory's over Hatton (unranked at 147, although highly ranked at 140) and ODLH (unranked at 147, although highly ranked at 154) these are things that maintain his p4p status, but have nothing to do with being a weight class champion.
Hatton was a defense of his championship. During the war years champions held their titles for years without defending. I'm not saying its the same thing but everyone wanted DLH/ Mayweather 1 & the figures prove that, a lot of people wanted Mayweather/ Hatton. So Mayweather is fighting the fights the majority want to see.
I can't see how you don't recognize Mayweather as 147 champ he's never lost it in the ring & it's only been 5 months since his last defense. From when he won the championship from Baldomir it was 13 months until he defended against Hatton with the DLH fight in between. I think your being a little harsh.
I don't think I being harsh at all, as I still recognize him as p4p # 1 but I think a ranking system has to have merit as well as what sells fights, a ranking system is what makes pro sports. By virtue of what you are saying being ranked in the top 10 of the welterweight class is meaningless ultimately because if the champ chooses not to fight anyone there, there is no consequence.
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Re: The LINEAL welterweight championship
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Galaxy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
I still recognize Floyd as p4p #1 as I mentioned earlier, but fighting people that are not ranked in the weight class mentioned, should not allow you to continue holding that weight classe's distinctive honor.
IMO Floyd lost being the 147 lb. champ when he opted to not fight anyone ranked at 147 for a year after winning the title.
Yes I respect Floyd's victory's over Hatton (unranked at 147, although highly ranked at 140) and ODLH (unranked at 147, although highly ranked at 154) these are things that maintain his p4p status, but have nothing to do with being a weight class champion.
Hatton was a defense of his championship. During the war years champions held their titles for years without defending. I'm not saying its the same thing but everyone wanted DLH/ Mayweather 1 & the figures prove that, a lot of people wanted Mayweather/ Hatton. So Mayweather is fighting the fights the majority want to see.
I can't see how you don't recognize Mayweather as 147 champ he's never lost it in the ring & it's only been 5 months since his last defense. From when he won the championship from Baldomir it was 13 months until he defended against Hatton with the DLH fight in between. I think your being a little harsh.
I don't think I being harsh at all, as I still recognize him as p4p # 1 but I think a ranking system has to have merit as well as what sells fights, a ranking system is what makes pro sports. By virtue of what you are saying being ranked in the top 10 of the welterweight class is meaningless ultimately because if the champ chooses not to fight anyone there, there is no consequence.
By virtue of what your saying being the champion is worthless unless they fight who you want them to fight. You sure your a part of one of the alphabet groups?
Because thats precisely what we have today, belt holders having to defend against undeserving mandatories in fights that no one wants to see.
I too want to see Mayweather/ Cotto but not at the expense of throwing the sport I love into turmoil by recognizing another fighter as champion who hasn't even won that honor in the ring. To do that would be to continue the chaos that the alphabet jokers have created.
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Re: The LINEAL welterweight championship
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Galaxy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Galaxy
Hatton was a defense of his championship. During the war years champions held their titles for years without defending. I'm not saying its the same thing but everyone wanted DLH/ Mayweather 1 & the figures prove that, a lot of people wanted Mayweather/ Hatton. So Mayweather is fighting the fights the majority want to see.
I can't see how you don't recognize Mayweather as 147 champ he's never lost it in the ring & it's only been 5 months since his last defense. From when he won the championship from Baldomir it was 13 months until he defended against Hatton with the DLH fight in between. I think your being a little harsh.
I don't think I being harsh at all, as I still recognize him as p4p # 1 but I think a ranking system has to have merit as well as what sells fights, a ranking system is what makes pro sports. By virtue of what you are saying being ranked in the top 10 of the welterweight class is meaningless ultimately because if the champ chooses not to fight anyone there, there is no consequence.
By virtue of what your saying being the champion is worthless unless they fight who you want them to fight. You sure your a part of one of the alphabet groups?
Because thats precisely what we have today, belt holders having to defend against undeserving mandatories in fights that no one wants to see.
I too want to see Mayweather/ Cotto but not at the expense of throwing the sport I love into turmoil by recognizing another fighter as champion who hasn't even won that honor in the ring. To do that would be to continue the chaos that the alphabet jokers have created.
Cheers mate I always enjoy debating you. I suppose I should clarify by top 10 I mean THE RING'S top 10, which is what I recognize as the foremost authority. I mean that's really what we're talking about here right.
His options to keep his title would be at this point
1) Miguel Cotto
2) Shane Mosley
3) Carlos Quintana
4) Paul Williams
5) Antonio Margarito
6) Zab Judah
7) Josh Clottey
8) Luis Collazo
9) Jackson Bonsu
10) Kermit Cintron
Look at those options, there are fights there that would make good money, fights that would make great money, fights that would be easy, fights that would be more competitive. I don't think it's asking too much for a divisional champ to defend his title again the top 10 list. Now if we are talking lineal champ, well how does that work if PBF has 1 alphabet and Cotto or Margarito has two straps?
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Re: The LINEAL welterweight championship
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Galaxy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
I don't think I being harsh at all, as I still recognize him as p4p # 1 but I think a ranking system has to have merit as well as what sells fights, a ranking system is what makes pro sports. By virtue of what you are saying being ranked in the top 10 of the welterweight class is meaningless ultimately because if the champ chooses not to fight anyone there, there is no consequence.
By virtue of what your saying being the champion is worthless unless they fight who you want them to fight. You sure your a part of one of the alphabet groups?
Because thats precisely what we have today, belt holders having to defend against undeserving mandatories in fights that no one wants to see.
I too want to see Mayweather/ Cotto but not at the expense of throwing the sport I love into turmoil by recognizing another fighter as champion who hasn't even won that honor in the ring. To do that would be to continue the chaos that the alphabet jokers have created.
Cheers mate I always enjoy debating you. I suppose I should clarify by top 10 I mean THE RING'S top 10, which is what I recognize as the foremost authority. I mean that's really what we're talking about here right.
His options to keep his title would be at this point
1) Miguel Cotto
2) Shane Mosley
3) Carlos Quintana
4) Paul Williams
5) Antonio Margarito
6) Zab Judah
7) Josh Clottey
8) Luis Collazo
9) Jackson Bonsu
10) Kermit Cintron
Look at those options, there are fights there that would make good money, fights that would make great money, fights that would be easy, fights that would be more competitive. I don't think it's asking too much for a divisional champ to defend his title again the top 10 list. Now if we are talking lineal champ, well how does that work if PBF has 1 alphabet and Cotto or Margarito has two straps?
I enjoy debating with you too.
You say his options to keep his title, does that mean you agree with stripping?
Out of all those fighters listed the winner of Cotto/ Margarito is the fight people will want to see & the one which make most sense.
By what I assume your insinuating is that if Floyd fights DLH next you'll recogize the Cotto/ Margarito winner as champ? Or you may already recognize Cotto.
But doesn't that leave us in the same predicament? Where we will have questions about who is better Cotto or Mayweather? Mayweather will still be the linear champion belt or no belts, Cotto will hold alphabet trinkets.
Isn't it much easier to recognize a champion until he is beaten in the ring. If that champion doesn't defend against who the fans what the we need to put pressure on him until the fights we want are made. The answer is not just to recognize someone else. You mentioned before about what makes pro sports. All other sports have one champion, that is what pro sports is all about!
If Cotto dismantles Margarito there will be no other opponent for Floyd to face.
I'm sure we will get Cotto/ Mayweather in early '09 but if we don't Mayweather will still be champion @ 147 until he is has his championship taken from him (in the ring)
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Re: The LINEAL welterweight championship
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Galaxy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Galaxy
By virtue of what your saying being the champion is worthless unless they fight who you want them to fight. You sure your a part of one of the alphabet groups?
Because thats precisely what we have today, belt holders having to defend against undeserving mandatories in fights that no one wants to see.
I too want to see Mayweather/ Cotto but not at the expense of throwing the sport I love into turmoil by recognizing another fighter as champion who hasn't even won that honor in the ring. To do that would be to continue the chaos that the alphabet jokers have created.
Cheers mate I always enjoy debating you. I suppose I should clarify by top 10 I mean THE RING'S top 10, which is what I recognize as the foremost authority. I mean that's really what we're talking about here right.
His options to keep his title would be at this point
1) Miguel Cotto
2) Shane Mosley
3) Carlos Quintana
4) Paul Williams
5) Antonio Margarito
6) Zab Judah
7) Josh Clottey
8) Luis Collazo
9) Jackson Bonsu
10) Kermit Cintron
Look at those options, there are fights there that would make good money, fights that would make great money, fights that would be easy, fights that would be more competitive. I don't think it's asking too much for a divisional champ to defend his title again the top 10 list. Now if we are talking lineal champ, well how does that work if PBF has 1 alphabet and Cotto or Margarito has two straps?
I enjoy debating with you too.
You say his options to keep his title, does that mean you agree with stripping?
Out of all those fighters listed the winner of Cotto/ Margarito is the fight people will want to see & the one which make most sense.
By what I assume your insinuating is that if Floyd fights DLH next you'll recogize the Cotto/ Margarito winner as champ? Or you may already recognize Cotto.
But doesn't that leave us in the same predicament? Where we will have questions about who is better Cotto or Mayweather? Mayweather will still be the linear champion belt or no belts, Cotto will hold alphabet trinkets.
Isn't it much easier to recognize a champion until he is beaten in the ring. If that champion doesn't defend against who the fans what the we need to put pressure on him until the fights we want are made. The answer is not just to recognize someone else. You mentioned before about what makes pro sports. All other sports have one champion, that is what pro sports is all about!
If Cotto dismantles Margarito there will be no other opponent for Floyd to face.
I'm sure we will get Cotto/ Mayweather in early '09 but if we don't Mayweather will still be champion @ 147 until he is has his championship taken from him (in the ring)
If Cotto beats Margarito I must in following my theory recognize Cotto as the man at 147 why? Because look who he has beat from that list.
2) Shane Mosley
3) Carlos Quintana
5) Antonio Margarito (with the assumption that he wins in this scenario)
6) Zab Judah
As opposed to Floyd
6) Zab Judah
I definately see where you are coming from, and I would rather not strip away a title from someone, but if there are no credible defenses made, I have a hard time recognizing someone as the champ.
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Re: The LINEAL welterweight championship
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Galaxy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Cheers mate I always enjoy debating you. I suppose I should clarify by top 10 I mean THE RING'S top 10, which is what I recognize as the foremost authority. I mean that's really what we're talking about here right.
His options to keep his title would be at this point
1) Miguel Cotto
2) Shane Mosley
3) Carlos Quintana
4) Paul Williams
5) Antonio Margarito
6) Zab Judah
7) Josh Clottey
8) Luis Collazo
9) Jackson Bonsu
10) Kermit Cintron
Look at those options, there are fights there that would make good money, fights that would make great money, fights that would be easy, fights that would be more competitive. I don't think it's asking too much for a divisional champ to defend his title again the top 10 list. Now if we are talking lineal champ, well how does that work if PBF has 1 alphabet and Cotto or Margarito has two straps?
I enjoy debating with you too.
You say his options to keep his title, does that mean you agree with stripping?
Out of all those fighters listed the winner of Cotto/ Margarito is the fight people will want to see & the one which make most sense.
By what I assume your insinuating is that if Floyd fights DLH next you'll recogize the Cotto/ Margarito winner as champ? Or you may already recognize Cotto.
But doesn't that leave us in the same predicament? Where we will have questions about who is better Cotto or Mayweather? Mayweather will still be the linear champion belt or no belts, Cotto will hold alphabet trinkets.
Isn't it much easier to recognize a champion until he is beaten in the ring. If that champion doesn't defend against who the fans what the we need to put pressure on him until the fights we want are made. The answer is not just to recognize someone else. You mentioned before about what makes pro sports. All other sports have one champion, that is what pro sports is all about!
If Cotto dismantles Margarito there will be no other opponent for Floyd to face.
I'm sure we will get Cotto/ Mayweather in early '09 but if we don't Mayweather will still be champion @ 147 until he is has his championship taken from him (in the ring)
If Cotto beats Margarito I must in following my theory recognize Cotto as the man at 147 why? Because look who he has beat from that list.
2) Shane Mosley
3) Carlos Quintana
5) Antonio Margarito (with the assumption that he wins in this scenario)
6) Zab Judah
As opposed to Floyd
6) Zab Judah
I definately see where you are coming from, and I would rather not strip away a title from someone, but if there are no credible defenses made, I have a hard time recognizing someone as the champ.
Out of Cotto's opponents none of them were champion. I'm sure a proud warrior such as Cotto would rather win his championship in the ring than have it handed to him.
Benny Leonard made just 6 defenses in 8 years, stripping is not the answer it just adds to the problem!
-
Re: The LINEAL welterweight championship
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Galaxy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Galaxy
I enjoy debating with you too.
You say his options to keep his title, does that mean you agree with stripping?
Out of all those fighters listed the winner of Cotto/ Margarito is the fight people will want to see & the one which make most sense.
By what I assume your insinuating is that if Floyd fights DLH next you'll recogize the Cotto/ Margarito winner as champ? Or you may already recognize Cotto.
But doesn't that leave us in the same predicament? Where we will have questions about who is better Cotto or Mayweather? Mayweather will still be the linear champion belt or no belts, Cotto will hold alphabet trinkets.
Isn't it much easier to recognize a champion until he is beaten in the ring. If that champion doesn't defend against who the fans what the we need to put pressure on him until the fights we want are made. The answer is not just to recognize someone else. You mentioned before about what makes pro sports. All other sports have one champion, that is what pro sports is all about!
If Cotto dismantles Margarito there will be no other opponent for Floyd to face.
I'm sure we will get Cotto/ Mayweather in early '09 but if we don't Mayweather will still be champion @ 147 until he is has his championship taken from him (in the ring)
If Cotto beats Margarito I must in following my theory recognize Cotto as the man at 147 why? Because look who he has beat from that list.
2) Shane Mosley
3) Carlos Quintana
5) Antonio Margarito (with the assumption that he wins in this scenario)
6) Zab Judah
As opposed to Floyd
6) Zab Judah
I definately see where you are coming from, and I would rather not strip away a title from someone, but if there are no credible defenses made, I have a hard time recognizing someone as the champ.
Out of Cotto's opponents none of them were champion. I'm sure a proud warrior such as Cotto would rather win his championship in the ring than have it handed to him.
Benny Leonard made just 6 defenses in 8 years, stripping is not the answer it just adds to the problem!
I don't think punishing people for not defending against the top 10 adds to the problem, it would make fighters have to fight more often, the lack of activity is the problem to me. I hate the fact that it is standard for title holders to fight once or twice a year and that is the norm now.
-
Re: The LINEAL welterweight championship
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Galaxy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
If Cotto beats Margarito I must in following my theory recognize Cotto as the man at 147 why? Because look who he has beat from that list.
2) Shane Mosley
3) Carlos Quintana
5) Antonio Margarito (with the assumption that he wins in this scenario)
6) Zab Judah
As opposed to Floyd
6) Zab Judah
I definately see where you are coming from, and I would rather not strip away a title from someone, but if there are no credible defenses made, I have a hard time recognizing someone as the champ.
Out of Cotto's opponents none of them were champion. I'm sure a proud warrior such as Cotto would rather win his championship in the ring than have it handed to him.
Benny Leonard made just 6 defenses in 8 years, stripping is not the answer it just adds to the problem!
I don't think punishing people for not defending against the top 10 adds to the problem, it would make fighters have to fight more often, the lack of activity is the problem to me. I hate the fact that it is standard for title holders to fight once or twice a year and that is the norm now.
Having more than one champion in each division is the biggest problem there is for our sport. No other sport has this ridiculousness!
I too get frustrated by inactivity but fighters make loads more these days so they don't need to fight as often... I don't see this changing.
But recognizing one champion in each division is something simple we can do to better our sport & Ring magazine has given us the opportunity to do this.
As I remember Hatton was ranked about #4 at 147 until he informed the Ring that he was returning to 140. So in essence by defeating Hatton Floyd defeated not only another champion but also potentially a top 10 welter.
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Re: The LINEAL welterweight championship
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
That was a good read. whomever wins between Cotto and Margarito should be consider the Champ at 147. Floyd would still be considered p4p #1 IMO but really has no claim anymore at 147.
Just for the benefit of doubt I still give Floyd the The LINEAL welterweight championship Title.
But if he decides not to fight the winnner of Cotto vs MArgarito and pull the same bullshit he did when Cotto beats Mosley.
In my eyes and many as well will no longer see Floyd as the Top WW and will be ignore untill he retires or fights a true WW in his Prime in the Top 5.
-
Re: The LINEAL welterweight championship
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Galaxy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Galaxy
I enjoy debating with you too.
You say his options to keep his title, does that mean you agree with stripping?
Out of all those fighters listed the winner of Cotto/ Margarito is the fight people will want to see & the one which make most sense.
By what I assume your insinuating is that if Floyd fights DLH next you'll recogize the Cotto/ Margarito winner as champ? Or you may already recognize Cotto.
But doesn't that leave us in the same predicament? Where we will have questions about who is better Cotto or Mayweather? Mayweather will still be the linear champion belt or no belts, Cotto will hold alphabet trinkets.
Isn't it much easier to recognize a champion until he is beaten in the ring. If that champion doesn't defend against who the fans what the we need to put pressure on him until the fights we want are made. The answer is not just to recognize someone else. You mentioned before about what makes pro sports. All other sports have one champion, that is what pro sports is all about!
If Cotto dismantles Margarito there will be no other opponent for Floyd to face.
I'm sure we will get Cotto/ Mayweather in early '09 but if we don't Mayweather will still be champion @ 147 until he is has his championship taken from him (in the ring)
If Cotto beats Margarito I must in following my theory recognize Cotto as the man at 147 why? Because look who he has beat from that list.
2) Shane Mosley
3) Carlos Quintana
5) Antonio Margarito (with the assumption that he wins in this scenario)
6) Zab Judah
As opposed to Floyd
6) Zab Judah
I definately see where you are coming from, and I would rather not strip away a title from someone, but if there are no credible defenses made, I have a hard time recognizing someone as the champ.
Out of Cotto's opponents none of them were champion. I'm sure a proud warrior such as Cotto would rather win his championship in the ring than have it handed to him.
Benny Leonard made just 6 defenses in 8 years, stripping is not the answer it just adds to the problem!
Well Quintana became a Champion.:) and now he is fighting a champion.
realistically do any of you see the Baldomir that beat Judah beating Cotto or MArgarito?
-
Re: The LINEAL welterweight championship
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Galaxy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
Cheers mate I always enjoy debating you. I suppose I should clarify by top 10 I mean THE RING'S top 10, which is what I recognize as the foremost authority. I mean that's really what we're talking about here right.
His options to keep his title would be at this point
1) Miguel Cotto
2) Shane Mosley
3) Carlos Quintana
4) Paul Williams
5) Antonio Margarito
6) Zab Judah
7) Josh Clottey
8) Luis Collazo
9) Jackson Bonsu
10) Kermit Cintron
Look at those options, there are fights there that would make good money, fights that would make great money, fights that would be easy, fights that would be more competitive. I don't think it's asking too much for a divisional champ to defend his title again the top 10 list. Now if we are talking lineal champ, well how does that work if PBF has 1 alphabet and Cotto or Margarito has two straps?
I enjoy debating with you too.
You say his options to keep his title, does that mean you agree with stripping?
Out of all those fighters listed the winner of Cotto/ Margarito is the fight people will want to see & the one which make most sense.
By what I assume your insinuating is that if Floyd fights DLH next you'll recogize the Cotto/ Margarito winner as champ? Or you may already recognize Cotto.
But doesn't that leave us in the same predicament? Where we will have questions about who is better Cotto or Mayweather? Mayweather will still be the linear champion belt or no belts, Cotto will hold alphabet trinkets.
Isn't it much easier to recognize a champion until he is beaten in the ring. If that champion doesn't defend against who the fans what the we need to put pressure on him until the fights we want are made. The answer is not just to recognize someone else. You mentioned before about what makes pro sports. All other sports have one champion, that is what pro sports is all about!
If Cotto dismantles Margarito there will be no other opponent for Floyd to face.
I'm sure we will get Cotto/ Mayweather in early '09 but if we don't Mayweather will still be champion @ 147 until he is has his championship taken from him (in the ring)
If Cotto beats Margarito I must in following my theory recognize Cotto as the man at 147 why? Because look who he has beat from that list.
2) Shane Mosley
3) Carlos Quintana
5) Antonio Margarito (with the assumption that he wins in this scenario)
6) Zab Judah
As opposed to Floyd
6) Zab Judah
I definately see where you are coming from, and I would rather not strip away a title from someone, but if there are no credible defenses made, I have a hard time recognizing someone as the champ.
I completely agree with you bro........you had been saying something real ..................;D
Good post............;D
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Re: The LINEAL welterweight championship
Not to hijack the thread but is the use of the word "lineal" a British venacular? I only say this b/c I've never seen the term "Lineal Champ" only "Linear Champ". Lineal suggest of the same Lineage where Linear annotates in a sinlge line. Anyway I digress I just found it an odd use of words
-
Re: The LINEAL welterweight championship
Quote:
Originally Posted by
VanChilds
Not to hijack the thread but is the use of the word "lineal" a British venacular? I only say this b/c I've never seen the term "Lineal Champ" only "Linear Champ". Lineal suggest of the same Lineage where Linear annotates in a sinlge line. Anyway I digress I just found it an odd use of words
Yeah i know what you mean bro i thought the same thing myself..
I know what i mean by the term and i wondered whether it was linear of lineal so i actually looked it up before i posted..
lin·e·al http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/g...una/thinsp.png http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/speaker.gif Audio Help /ˈlɪnhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/g...una/thinsp.pngihttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/g...una/thinsp.pngəl/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[lin-ee-uhhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/g...una/thinsp.pngl] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –adjective 1.being in the direct line, as a descendant or ancestor, or in a direct line, as descent or succession. 2.of or transmitted by lineal descent.
lin·e·ar http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/g...una/thinsp.png http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/speaker.gif Audio Help /ˈlɪnhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/g...una/thinsp.pngihttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/g...una/thinsp.pngər/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[lin-ee-er] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –adjective 1.of, consisting of, or using lines: linear design. 2.pertaining to or represented by lines: linear dimensions. 3.extended or arranged in a line: a linear series. 4.involving measurement in one dimension only; pertaining to length: linear measure.
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Re: The LINEAL welterweight championship
sorry guys - but shouldn't the man who unifies the wbc,wba,wbo and ibf belts be considered the undisputed champ?? and as far as i can see if cotto beats toni then he should face crlos and then pbf?
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Re: The LINEAL welterweight championship
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Puya
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Galaxy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
If Cotto beats Margarito I must in following my theory recognize Cotto as the man at 147 why? Because look who he has beat from that list.
2) Shane Mosley
3) Carlos Quintana
5) Antonio Margarito (with the assumption that he wins in this scenario)
6) Zab Judah
As opposed to Floyd
6) Zab Judah
I definately see where you are coming from, and I would rather not strip away a title from someone, but if there are no credible defenses made, I have a hard time recognizing someone as the champ.
Out of Cotto's opponents none of them were champion. I'm sure a proud warrior such as Cotto would rather win his championship in the ring than have it handed to him.
Benny Leonard made just 6 defenses in 8 years, stripping is not the answer it just adds to the problem!
Well Quintana became a Champion.:) and now he is fighting a champion.
realistically do any of you see the Baldomir that beat Judah beating Cotto or MArgarito?
Sorry bro but thats my entire point, what the sport needs is one recognized champion in each division. Quintana was a belt holder, Floyd was the champion!
You said in your previous post that you recognize Mayweather as the linear champion but then go onto say that Quintana is a champion, add in Cotto & Margarito & thats 4 guys you recognize as champion... WHAT A MESS!!!
Floyd is the champion at 147 based on the fact he beat the man who beat the man & so forth. Until he loses his championship either in the ring or vacates its as simple as that in my eyes!
Why complicate things?
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Re: The LINEAL welterweight championship
Okay well having mulled this over in what has been a pretty sweet topic we'll just put it down to this..
My standing will have to be..
Floyd is the Lineal champion.. He has the belt which is of descendence to the undisputed title. Fact.
Miguel Cotto is a more riteous and deserving case and to be considered the uncrowned champ and it is my right that i can hold this opinion..
Thats fair right?.. But we must stick by the way things world with the true title and whoever holds it..
:) Peaaace
